Re: [Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lonelybaritone
I don't understand why you'd run only three "right" of flame. Seems to me that card is way better as a 4 of. And a single one nets the same amount of mana that tinder wall does (no, you dolt, don't argue that you can save mana by untapping). I'd go -1 +1, in reverse order of mentioning.
Edit: it's in your board. That's a terrible idea. Why waste acceleration to wish for acceleration?
Seems to me it makes as much sense as putting a burning wish in your board so you can wish for the one you used to wish for the second (in order to add storm).
(that's sarcasm - it seems like a terrible idea to me to board a rite of flame)
You SB a Rite of Flame so Burning Wish can tutor for an accelerant, which is no different than Infernal Tutor tutoring for a second Dark Ritual, and it's been a standard practice of Extended Mind's Desire forever. We've considered it in the past, and even Bryant mentioned it recently, so it's hardly as nonsensical as you're making it out to be. I don't know where you're getting the idea that your wasting acceleration to search for acceleration from, as long as you have a sufficient density of acceleration in your deck, SBing a Rite of Flame is nothing more than a space/utility preference.
I don't see how arguing Tinder Wall's use as a one drop that produces RR on the following turn warrants name calling, being able to cast Tinder Wall and pass the turn is the card's most outstanding feature. Tinder Wall is even better in TES than it is in Belcher, due to TES being more of a staggered combo deck. The RR mana production has several important funtions, such as resolving Diminishing Returns on the second turn by producing RR with out tapping lands that could have been used to create UU, and it puts your mana production right at the point where you need it to be to make the Burning Wish->Infernal Tutor chain a possibility. If all I wanted was the R mana production, I would have just used Simian Spirit Guide in the deck.
Even if the MD or SB isn't optimal by a single card, and that's arguable, because I admitted the list was experimental, it's not enough of a reason to throw the baby out with the bath water.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BreathWeapon
You SB a Rite of Flame so Burning Wish can tutor for an accelerant, which is no different than Infernal Tutor tutoring for a second Dark Ritual, and it's been a standard practice of Extended Mind's Desire forever.
If by forever, you mean never than you are right.
Of the 25 Desire deck's that made top 8 this Extended Season (from SCG database) there were 92 Rite of Flames, Zero of them were in sideboards.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ewokslayer
If by forever, you mean never than you are right.
Of the 25 Desire deck's that made top 8 this Extended Season (from SCG database) there were 92 Rite of Flames, Zero of them were in sideboards.
When I was running Desire in Extended the standard lists had the Rite of Flame in the SB, if it was changed, or if it was considered sup-optimal so be it, but it was common practice at the time. Dig thru' the Desire thread on SCG if you don't believe me, but regardless SBing Rite of Flame is neither a new or radical suggestion.
SB the 2 Empty the Warrens and bring in the Rite of Flame and Infernal Tutor if the configuration bothers you that much, but you'll miss the 2 Empty the Warrens more than you'll miss the redundant accelerant and one dimensional tutor, IMO.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
BreathWeapon, aren't you missing accel while playing your version of the deck ?
Hell, with wastedlife's version, I often want more acceleration, and draw into too many 4cc cards. EtW & DR n°2 & 3 seems horrible to me !
Re: [Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Wtf is up with the 3 Diminishing Returns? Isn't that idea old and janky?
I found it. http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...9&postcount=90
I know a guy who runs a Rite of Flame in his Belcher Wishboard. He also runs a Burning Wish in the Wishboard. I lol'd irl at him. And after looking through pages of Desire lists, I saw one deck that didn't play 4 Rite of Flame in the maindeck...it ran zero anywhere.
"but it was common practice at the time" Even if it was common practice(which no one else can seem to find), times change, amigo. Let's move along with them. The idea of 3DR 3ETW was back on page 5. Can we please leave it there? I don't think ANYONE wants to hit more than 1 DR in a game. I think there was one time I used 2 (one from MD, one wished) to nail 40+ Tendrils on an opponent with that much life.
I think that Infernal Contract and Ponder help sculpt your hand for the win, much like what was done in the grandfather decks of TES.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
chokin
Wtf is up with the 3 Diminishing Returns? Isn't that idea old and janky?
I found it.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...9&postcount=90
I know a guy who runs a Rite of Flame in his Belcher Wishboard. He also runs a Burning Wish in the Wishboard. I lol'd irl at him. And after looking through pages of Desire lists, I saw one deck that didn't play 4 Rite of Flame in the maindeck...it ran zero anywhere.
"but it was common practice at the time" Even if it was common practice(which no one else can seem to find), times change, amigo. Let's move along with them. The idea of 3DR 3ETW was back on page 5. Can we please leave it there? I don't think ANYONE wants to hit more than 1 DR in a game. I think there was one time I used 2 (one from MD, one wished) to nail 40+ Tendrils on an opponent with that much life.
I think that Infernal Contract and Ponder help sculpt your hand for the win, much like what was done in the grandfather decks of TES.
It's in the middle of the TEPS thread, it looks like it was moved back into the MD for Burning Wish -> Channel the Suns, but regardless it's not a question of what's in Belcher or "times change," it's a matter of whether or not you want the utility of wishing for an accelerant or not.
I don't think Cabal Ritual is a good choice for acceleration to begin with, and the 2 Cabal Ritual and 2 Draw 4 version is just filler. I wont argue that Ponder isn't awesome, as I said I've been running 4 Ponder/3 Empty the Warrens for a few months now, there's just other configurations that deserve testing.
The 3 Diminishing Returns/3 Empty the Warrens list posted on page 5 and posted on the last page are separated by Manamorphose, which is by no means a trivial differentiation. Being able to support a set of Diminishing Returns that can be resolved on the first turn with Manamorphose (or set up with Brainstorm) is HUGE, because Diminishing Returns is the one card that can win the game all by itself. It's the equivalent of including SI's Draw 4 chain into the deck on a relative scale.
@Rockstar
4cc cards being Infernal Tutor "bricks" is a give and take, on the one hand it's more difficult to achieve Hellbent, and on the other hand you don't need to achieve Hellbent because the "bricks" are really outs in and of themselves. Being bricks isn't as important as the tactical pressure a set of Empty the Warrens puts on your opponent to counter your acceleration, or the hands you don't have to ship because you have a threat.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
I don't think everyone should attack BreathWeapon/the idea so much. I don't think it's better than the standard TES either, but it's an interesting idea to use Manamorphose. It's not like you are forced to play it or anything, let's just look what we can use Manamorphose for. I find it an interesting idea, but the Tutor shouldn't be Sb. I don't think 3 EtW is good either, but 4 Manamorphose+3 Diminishing Returns is testable.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
matelml
I don't think everyone should attack BreathWeapon/the idea so much. I don't think it's better than the standard TES either, but it's an interesting idea to use Manamorphose. It's not like you are forced to play it or anything, let's just look what we can use Manamorphose for. I find it an interesting idea, but the Tutor shouldn't be Sb. I don't think 3 EtW is good either, but 4 Manamorphose+3 Diminishing Returns is testable.
At least one person can be reasonable, I'm not sold on the SB Rite of Flame and Infernal Tutor either, but they were the most redundant cards to cut for 3 Empty the Warrens. You can just move Rite of Flame and Infernal Tutor back into the MD and replace them in the SB with Empty the Warrens, but there's a lot to be said about the Empty the Warrens and Bombs set up and how it baits control to spend its disruption on sup-optimal targets. You also get more use out of Empty the Warrens as you increase the use of Draw 7s, but I don't think there's any reason you can get away with only 1.
The 3 Diminishing Returns, 4 Manamorphose, 4 Tinder Wall set up works, but I think Manamorphose turning into a brick with out Diminishing Returns is one of its biggest drawbacks. Whether or not the deck can tolerate Manamorphose by itself is probably the biggest question.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Now that you explained the 3-3, I think I'm gonna try out the manamorphose + returns setup; but to be honest I don't like relying on DR as it is always a bet, and in my experience, DR fizzles are one of the most frequent things that make me lose a game (along with lack of accel, duress/thoughtseize/therapy and a heavy pack of counters).
I think I'll miss the draw4s, but if they're replaced with draw7s, why not !
Re: [Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Why not? Because they AREN'T Draw7s
Sure, they draw you seven cards, but at the expense of 10 cards, and your yard.
Don't get me wrong, I love Diminishing Returns, one of the best cards in the deck, but 3x main?
I know Manamorphose does this, and Manamorphose does that, but really all it does is take up space.
TES is a mana hungry deck and if you are simply playing a cantrip to fix your mana and not add any, you are slowing down.
I'll admit there are situations it is good in, (add BW or RW) but I never seem to have a problem coming up with the right colors.
When you start putting together lists that have 3 "Draw7s" in them, it then loses consistency.
I sat this because the way TES wins is through a calculated series of events, that all involve cards that do the same thing every time.
Diminishing Returns is the only exception and it is most certainly not necessary to win with.
When the deck starts going "Okay I'll draw 7 and hope I see what I need!" it becomes a problem and loses its edge.
Besides, Empty the Warrens in multiples is not the way to win games, sure they're good, but why?
EtW is the most fragile kill mech for legacy combo to run, I'm not kidding, so why 3x?
Everyone I ever play has something to deal with it, unless you are dropping 12+ on turn one and you are the first player to go, it isnt worth it most of the time.
I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything, it just seems so bad to have multiples of D.Returns and EtW main.
Also, I'm not completely dismissing Manamorphose, but to me it just doesn't seem to do what TES needs, add mana.
But who knows, it may show up as a two of from time to time in my list.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
yawg07
Why not? Because they AREN'T Draw7s
Sure, they draw you seven cards, but at the expense of 10 cards, and your yard.
Don't get me wrong, I love Diminishing Returns, one of the best cards in the deck, but 3x main?
I know Manamorphose does this, and Manamorphose does that, but really all it does is take up space.
TES is a mana hungry deck and if you are simply playing a cantrip to fix your mana and not add any, you are slowing down.
I'll admit there are situations it is good in, (add BW or RW) but I never seem to have a problem coming up with the right colors.
When you start putting together lists that have 3 "Draw7s" in them, it then loses consistency.
I sat this because the way TES wins is through a calculated series of events, that all involve cards that do the same thing every time.
Diminishing Returns is the only exception and it is most certainly not necessary to win with.
When the deck starts going "Okay I'll draw 7 and hope I see what I need!" it becomes a problem and loses its edge.
Besides, Empty the Warrens in multiples is not the way to win games, sure they're good, but why?
EtW is the most fragile kill mech for legacy combo to run, I'm not kidding, so why 3x?
Everyone I ever play has something to deal with it, unless you are dropping 12+ on turn one and you are the first player to go, it isnt worth it most of the time.
I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything, it just seems so bad to have multiples of D.Returns and EtW main.
Also, I'm not completely dismissing Manamorphose, but to me it just doesn't seem to do what TES needs, add mana.
But who knows, it may show up as a two of from time to time in my list.
I agree. DR feels like a Serum Powder when you have a bad hand, only it adds to the storm count and can be Chrome Mox imprinted. Or an out against heavy discard. 3 EtW in the main was in older TES lists and they also ran Goblin Warstrike in the board. People learned how to play against turn 1-2 "zOMG 12+ TOEKINZ" and it was abandoned. It is the weaker of the 2 kills in TES, but is very useful when you can't autokill with Tendrils.
I don't think that multiple DR's are the way to go. I prefer sculpting my hand with the Draw4s instead of throwing away what I have.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Comparing Diminishing Returns to Serum Powder is just straight up ridiculous, in a deck that can resolve 100% of its hand on the same turn it can cast Diminishing Returns, the card is 100% card advantage. No other single card top decks Storm combo into a win like Diminishing Returns, drawing into it is like getting to start over from scratch after things go wrong.
People complain about Empty the Warrens a lot, but what they don't realize is that they are either misplaying Empty the Warrens or they would have mulliganed the hand other wise. Empty the Warrens has a subtle effect on the opponent, because he has to either keep or board in removal to deal with it or counter acceleration, and when you take away from the probability that you can resolve an Empty the Warrens, you just lose the dead card advantage and the ability to bait.
Both Empty the Warrens and Vexing Shusher pretty much do the same thing, they scare the shit out of your opponents and force them to either keep all of their removal in their MD or rape them when they SB it out.
I can understand hating Empty the Warrens if you play against Landstill all day, but if that's the case, you're playing the wrong Storm combo deck in that metagame any way.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
to get this subtle effect of which you are speaking your opponent has to know that you 're playing with 3 empty the warrens, which won't be the case very often imo. having it as a backup plan fills the better role imo.
and returns is nothing more than a backup plan too, because when you get the chance to safely use iggy to ramp your storm count, then you'll never tutor or wish for a returns.
and after you've blown your hand a toptecked returns without mana does shit.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
zefhek
to get this subtle effect of which you are speaking your opponent has to know that you 're playing with 3 empty the warrens, which won't be the case very often imo. having it as a backup plan fills the better role imo.
and returns is nothing more than a backup plan too, because when you get the chance to safely use iggy to ramp your storm count, then you'll never tutor or wish for a returns.
and after you've blown your hand a toptecked returns without mana does shit.
I agree with nearly everything this person just said :D
I don't know if I COMPLETELY count D.Returns as backup, sometimes it's like...
"Okay, turn 2, I've Chanted them and I'm at 5 storm and while using Burning Wish with cracking 2 LEDs ...
well, no Infernal in my yard to IGG with so I go :u::u::u::b::b::b: and get Returns."
If you are at 5+ storm with 2 mana floating (particularly :u::b:) and you play D.Returns, you are highly likely to win.
Unlike Warrens where you can make 10-12 guys that they'll most likely E.Explosives or Deed away.
Main thing I disagree with ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Breathweapon
I can understand hating Empty the Warrens if you play against Landstill all day, but if that's the case, you're playing the wrong Storm combo deck in that metagame any way.
What? TES is practically built to combat blue decks!
If you like Warrens so much, why don't you just play belcher and just warrens every single game?
Re: [Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
yawg07
If you are at 5+ storm with 2 mana floating (particularly :u::b:) and you play D.Returns, you are highly likely to win.
Unlike Warrens where you can make 10-12 guys that they'll most likely E.Explosives or Deed away.
This is very uncorrect preboard. Many decks have absolutely no answer at all to turn 2 EtW for more than 10 and the decks that do have an answer are more likely to not have it than to have it. Of course you are not going to cast EtW when you see your opponent has BG in play and you have a good chance of killing with ToA soon, but if you play the deck correct, EtW is a very strong card, just don't use it when you don't have to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
yawg07
What? TES is practically built to combat blue decks!
Just because there are 4 Chants main? Is that something like Belcher is built to combat blue decks cause it has 3 Pyroblasts main? Or Landstill is built to beat Loam cause it has Crucibles main?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
yawg07
If you like Warrens so much, why don't you just play belcher and just warrens every single game?
Because Warrens is only strong when you get to decide when to use it and when not to. And of course because Belcher is a very bad deck compared to TES. This is like saying: "If you like Tendrils so much, why don't you play SI?"
I think you could be a little more respectful. I know the ideas Breathweapon presents aren't standard and don't look amazing, but why react so harsh? At least he can defend and explain them.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
yawg07
I agree with nearly everything this person just said :D
I don't know if I COMPLETELY count D.Returns as backup, sometimes it's like...
"Okay, turn 2, I've Chanted them and I'm at 5 storm and while using Burning Wish with cracking 2 LEDs ...
well, no Infernal in my yard to IGG with so I go :u::u::u::b::b::b: and get Returns."
If you are at 5+ storm with 2 mana floating (particularly :u::b:) and you play D.Returns, you are highly likely to win.
Unlike Warrens where you can make 10-12 guys that they'll most likely E.Explosives or Deed away.
Main thing I disagree with ...
What? TES is practically built to combat blue decks!
If you like Warrens so much, why don't you just play belcher and just warrens every single game?
I agree with this, if you can float UB you can more than likely win off of D.Returns. I rarely ETW it's a back-up plan really, or a turn one play.
Between Chant and 5-6 blasts, I think it's fair to say that we're one of the better combo decks at fighting blue. Not to mention we get Vexing Shusher soon.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
FT is pretty good at fighting off blue as well, with Chant/Abeyance typically being run at 7-8 and maindeck solutions to permanent based hate (Counterbalance, etc).
Re: [Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
matelml
This is very uncorrect preboard. Many decks have absolutely no answer at all to turn 2 EtW for more than 10 and the decks that do have an answer are more likely to not have it than to have it. Of course you are not going to cast EtW when you see your opponent has BG in play and you have a good chance of killing with ToA soon, but if you play the deck correct, EtW is a very strong card, just don't use it when you don't have to.
Okay that is a good point, I guess when I talk I almost always mean Post-Board matches.
Normally playing TES, you win game one. So the important two are games 2-3.
The different story is with Landstill. I'll lose game one and win games two/three against it.
I think the main problem is their mainboard stifle, normally against a thresh-style deck you can Chant, they'll FoW it and you'll combo.
Landstill just keeps an Island up, FoWs the Chant, then Stifles the Tendrils.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
matelml
Just because there are 4 Chants main? Is that something like Belcher is built to combat blue decks cause it has 3 Pyroblasts main? Or Landstill is built to beat Loam cause it has Crucibles main?
No, I just mean how the deck applies itself. It's hard to explain.
4 Maindeck chants, then 4 SB Pyroblast, and in my case 2 Duress/Thoughtseize applies pressure to control decks pretty well.
I dunno, I've just always felt like it was the best combo deck I could be playing against blue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
matelml
Because Warrens is only strong when you get to decide when to use it and when not to. And of course because Belcher is a very bad deck compared to TES. This is like saying: "If you like Tendrils so much, why don't you play SI?"
Well he is playing 3x Warrens and going on abut how good it is.
If it is REALLY so hot, Belcher would do a lot better.
I just mean that more than one is really not so hot.
If you have three in maindeck and just side two out, I can see the thinking, but you could really have better kill there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
matelml
I think you could be a little more respectful. I know the ideas Breathweapon presents aren't standard and don't look amazing, but why react so harsh? At least he can defend and explain them.
Well, okay. I'm sorry if I came off as harsh, I didn't think I was being too hard on anyone.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
yawg07
Well he is playing 3x Warrens and going on abut how good it is.
If it is REALLY so hot, Belcher would do a lot better.
Not to rain on your parade, but Belcher is doing extremely well - that's why it's a DTB. Those decks, albeit the storm-count strategy, mark their cases by implementing two different win conditions. It's like Bryant said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant C.
I rarely ETW it's a back-up plan really, or a turn one play.
Warrens is a last-ditch effort in The Epic Storm, where as Belcher (variants) implement that strategy more often than casting a Goblin Charbelcher (ironically). There really is no comparison other than both decks rack up the spell count.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Not to mention we get Vexing Shusher soon.
Is it really this amazing ? Seems a little expensive to me (2 mana + 1 for each counter the opponent uses)
What did you replaced with them ? Sideboard pyroblasts ?
