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I'm running 8 MB protection (Chant and Duress) but I've been thinking of switching it to 4 Duress and 4 Pyroblast. The problem I now have is that running 8 protection spell and including Doomsday have made me cut the Chrome Moxes and a Cabal Ritual. Ponder has also been replaced with 4 Tops as well. Is cutting the Moxes ok?
The only thing I'm unhappy with about running Pyroblast over Chant is that you lose the ability to break LED on your upkeep under Chant protection. I guess that a resolved Counterbalance is worse news than individual counters though.
I have been running 8 protection spells and no Chrome Moxen either. I only miss the Moxen after I've resolved Ad nauseam, but a resolved Ad Nauseam is almost always a win either way, with or without the Chrome Moxen. Running SDT's is the consequence of utilizing Doomsday, which I've said is the part I'm a bit iffy with still.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kensai
As much as I am attracted by the idea of being able to counter CB's with Pyroblast, I think being able to work around Stifles, Spell Snares, Extirpates, and such is much more needed, so I'm sticking with the Chants.
It's always been my strategy since I started using Pyroblasts to not have a set build until I scout the competition first. It allows me to know more fully which is a better choice: Chant or Blasts.
I may try Mox as a singleton (I've been running 3x), but multiples haven't been extremely helpful as Petals normally fulfill the need of free mana.
How many Cabal Rits are you guys running?
Pce,
--DC
I've been running 3 Cabal Rituals. I'm thinking I can up it to 4 if I choose to run only 3 Sensei's since we're only running 1 Doomsday. But I think the card selection provided by Sensei is worth the extra slot.
I play a MTGO version of this deck obviously lacking IGG which hurts, but I can play Demonic Consultation, Mana Crypt, and Vampiric Tutor as singletons.
But I disgress, I play 2 Cabal Rituals, 2 Mox, 2 SDT and 1 Ponder. I've tried lists with 4 SDT and 0 Ponder, and lists with 4 Ponder and 0 SDT, but I think the best is a mix of both. The most common cards I board out are Mox, Ponder, Rushing River, Demonic Consultation, and Cabal Rituals in that order.
I agree that Moxen are only useful after AN, and there have been a few situations where a restrictive life total means I can only draw ~6-10 cards off Ad Nauseum and see only 1 accelerant which is not enough to finish the chain. These situations are few and far in between, so it's not indicative of the overall draws.
I am surprised by the amount of 1st turn kills that the deck has performed, even without protection. Chants have been highly crucial in helping the blue matchup, I'd say moreso than Blast could ever be. I've used them against combo to stall them, and a few times cause them to kill themselves with mana burn - Blasts would never acheive this.
Pyroblasts hits Brainstorm, Ponder, and Mystical Tutor in the mirror.
I'm wanting to see how few C. Rits I can get away with running. I'd like it to only be one, but I'm thinking it will have to be two. I don't want more than two. I think 4x Tops are pretty crucial. They are good for more than doomsday. They are pretty snappy against control and also allow you to play Mystical Tutor as a Demonic Tutor after an Ad Nauseam. In fact, that's initially the reason FT started playing Top. We started playing top before doomsday.
Pce,
--DC
Hi all!
I'm a complete scrub in Legacy. I am playing M:tg for quite some time now (since Masques) but i was always a limited/T2 player. I got convinced by a friend of mine to try some eternal formats, since we have a vintage/legacy league in my town, and he directed me to the Source forum.
The first tournament is next saturday (17.1.). I need to create a deck by that day and get to know the format, at least a bit.
I checked this forum around a bit. I have to admit I dont understand lots of interactions. I like this deck though, and I am fairly sure I can get it assembled in a week or so. This whole topic (and this one too, since it looks like it is a deck of the same archetype) are so overwhelming that I cant read them all, and neither do I understand everything you are saying. I just have to write here, and hope I dont get treated as a spammer, because that is not in the least my intention. I just really need help in understanding how the deck works.
What would be the decklist you would suggest to me, knowing that I am new to the format? I personally like the UB build from the first post, but looking through the topic a bit I see you dont really need 4 Ad Nauseams and that 1 Tendrils is enough. Most of you dont run Pacts either? How come? I figure they are good protection and they dont hurt you when you draw them with Ad Nauseam? Also, how does LED work? If you need to discard your hand, what good does it do? I also have trouble understanding the use of Infernal Tutor... Sorry for being a complete scrub. Perhaps it would be best not to spam the topic and if someone could write me some answers via PM. Just to make it clear, I dont expect to do any good on the tourney, but I would like to know at least a bit how my own deck works, what build I should use, and why :)
Thank all of you for your patience, time and effort in advance.
FrankTheScrubTank
Welcome to Legacy and The Source!Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankTheTank
For a starter deck in the format, you might want to try something easier to pilot, possibly an aggro deck of some sort. However, if you insist on playing this deck, you'll need a lot of practice.
Arguably more than any other deck, Storm variants have the most customizable decklists. No list is set in stone, as lists vary greatly. It's more of personal preference and meta adaptation whether you run a certain engine or not, or what sort of protection you need.
Pact of Negation has been used, but I think Chant and Duress are much more valuable. If you do go off with Ad Nauseam, you really won't be needing Pact of Negation since you can just cast Chant/Duress before going for Tendrils. It also doesn't protect you from the Infernal Tutor-LED interaction.
As for LED, you typically crack it in response to you playing a spell, most common of which would be Infernal Tutor. When you cast Infernal Tutor, you sacrifice LED in response so that when Infernal Tutor resolves, it would be hellbent, and you search for any card with 3 mana floating from the cracked LED. There are many more examples (but less used than with Infernal Tutor), all of which you'd figure out on your own once you pick the deck up.
Infernal Tutor isn't worthless without LED though, as it can grab additional copies of acceleration or protection to set you up for one big turn.
Uh, I think I covered most of what you asked. Good luck with the archetype.
There is another very important interaction with LED that was not mentioned by kicks_422. If you have an LED in play, you can use a Mystical Tutor to put Ad Nauseam on top of your deck. During your next Upkeep step, you activate LED, discarding your hand. During your Draw step you will draw Ad Nauseam, and you will still have 3 mana floating from your LED activation. Since Ad Nauseam is an instant, you can play it in your Draw step before moving to your Main phase and losing your LED mana. This is another good reason why Pact of Negation is not played much, because it can't protect this play.
Thank you both for your answers! I am thinking about running something like this, please comment on it, I am sure there is lots of room for improvement:
Lands: 14
4x Polluted Delta
2x Flooded Strand
4x Underground Sea
1x Tundra
3x Scrubland
(in case i cant get a hold of duals, im thinking 1x plains, 4x swamp, 4x island, and one delta less. on another note, should i run some normal basics anyhow, against blood moon?)
ANT: 4
1x Tendrils of Agony
3x Ad Nauseam
Protection: 9
4x Duress
4x Orim's Chant
1x Angel's Grace
Mana: 17
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
4x Dark Ritual
1x Cabal Ritual
4x Chrome Mox
Tutor/Sift: 16
4x Brainstorm
4x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Mystical Tutor
4x Infernal Tutor
Do you think the decklist is solid and why not? :) What should I change? What should I run in the sideboard considering I have no idea what the metagame looks like and what to expect?
Thanks again,
FrankTheTank
Hi. I've been playing this deck with a buddy of mine for about a week now and I must say I like the deck without lions eye diamond. I'll explain why:(1) It's not very good (for me) after ad nauseam. Chrome mox, mox diamond, lotus petal, etc.... is just better early and late game. (2) I'd rather them waste a stifle on a early mox or land than be in mid combo only to have them stifle my lions eye. (3) The best card for it is Infernal tutor and I think there's better draw in this deck than to play four. Don't get me wrong it is super fast if you want to build it that way but I think stoping a few cards short of going off is more important. Here' my version:
1 mox diamond
3 chrome mox
4 dark ritual
4 cabal rit
4 lotus petal
4 pact of negation
4 duress
1 orim's chant
1 echoing truth
4 mystic tutor
4 brainstorm
2 ponder
2 sensei's divining top
2 infernal tutor
2 angel's grace
2 ad nauseam
1 tendrils of agony
4 polluted delta
3 flooded straind
3 underground sea
1 tundra
1 scrubland
1 swamp
2 island
sb: 3 orims chant
2 wipe away
10 anything
Thanx.
@Frankthetank: I think your manabase needs a bit tweaking. Mine is:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
2 Island
1 Swamp
You don't really need too many duals. You do, however, need basics.
It looks... OK. Like I said, personal preference/playstyle plays a huge role. For example, I have cut the Chrome Moxen as I felt I didn't need the additional mana boost, since I run 4 Cabal Rituals as well. I also run 3 engines (Ad nauseam, Ill-Gotten Gains, and Doomsday). By the way, you'll need a back-up plan in case you get to a low life early on, so you should fit in an Ill Gotten Gains somewhere, I'm thinking over the Angel's Grace. Drawing your whole deck is cool, but it's easier to win via IGG at that point than search for Grace.
@sengirvmpr: I really don't think cutting LED from a Tendrils deck is the right decision. It's insane after Ad Nauseam, after you've drawn Infernals/Mystical+Brainstorms. And I don't think the LED ability can be Stifle'd, since it's a mana ability. Also Infernal Tutor isn't only used with LED. There are much wider applications for that.
Lion's Eye Diamond can't be stifled (it's a mana ability).
Also without it it can be difficult to find Tendrils post Ad Nauseam, since your Infernal Tutors are kind of useless (not to mention they would be almost useless altogether in a deck without LED). I suppose this is why you run Angel's Grace, which is pointless in the regular lists, because a 'normal' AN will win anyway - and for the cases, in which it doesn't, you have Ill-Gotten Gains - which again kind of needs LED.
How should Ill-Gotten Gains and Doomsday be correctly played?
The Ill-Gotten Gains is played together with an Infernal Tutor. You make some mana, cast the Tutor (respond by breaking LED's) and search for Ill-Gotten Gains. You then take back the tutor and 2 mana sources (LED's, Dark or Cabal Rituals usually) and cast them and the Tutor into Tendrils. That way, you create plenty of storm for Tendrils to be lethal.Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankTheTank
Note that IGG let's your opponent take back his FoW's as well. Therefore, it's mandatory you resolved a Chant usually (sometimes you can get back 1 mana source, 1 Tutor and 1 Chant or something).
The Doomsday is played with Top, which has some nice synergy with the rest of the deck as well (Mystical Tutor). There are some piles you can make with Doomsday that can win in different situations (trough Chalice, Teeg, whatever). These piles were made by emidln, so all credit goes to him. I hope it's ok i post the link here:
http://www.teambzk.org/public/doomsday-piles.html
Hey,
thanks for Doomsday piles list or to emidln...
How looks your Sb? I'm going to play this deck in a relativley aggresive meta.
My currental list: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22206 (1 Chrome Mox instead of the singelton Mox Diamond)
I have no clue yet, because I haven't figured out if a list with Top + Doomsday is better than one with Ponder & IGG.Quote:
Originally Posted by FlavaSava
I think I would pretty much always play 4 Serenity SB, as well as 4 Pyroblast to have some plan against Counterbalance. The rest is probably 1-offs. Angel's Grace maybe, The EtW seems good against Sui Black strategy's.
Also, I advise against 4 Chrome Mox. They usually suck enough, let alone drawing multiple.
Could someone give me some solid arguments why I should play Top in this deck? It's effect seems pretty poor for the cost.
Well, like you just said, Top is mandatory if you run the DoomsDay alternative Storm engine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahamuth
That, and the fact than after AdN you're usually able to generate a bunch of black Mana, but not always the double-U to Mystical+Ponder//Brainstorm into Tendrils.
A lone Mystical + SDT work perfectly here.
The main liability (beside the fact that SDT need more lands to be effective) of SDT over Ponder is that Top slows the deck's Goldfish for a whole turn where Ponder can just draw you the accelerant you need to just go off and win..
So, SDT requires more patience and setup to be effective, the good thing is Top helps you to setup over several turns (when facing hate or real opponents) and shows you more cards (and thus the card//answer you seek) with the deck's 7-8 Fetches than that 1 shot Ponder of yours.
Often Top is an additonal "protection" because many players think youre playing thresh or whatever, so they counter them to provide the countertop engine
OK, I took your advice into consideration. Then, I thought Cunning Wish might be a nice addition. I am not sure, you know, being a scrub and all :tongue: but I thought it might work. Current decklist looks like this:
Lands: 14
4x Polluted Delta
2x Flooded Strand
2x Underground Sea
1x Scrubland
1x Taiga
1x Swamp
1x Plains
2x Island
Engine: 6
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Brain Freeze
2x Ad Nauseam
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
1x Doomsday
Tutor/sift: 16
4x Mystical Tutor
4x Infernal Tutor
4x Brainstorm
4x Sensei's Divining Top
Mana: 16
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
Protection: 10
4x Duress
3x Orim's Chant
3x Cunning Wish
Sideboard:
1x Orim's Chant
1-2x Ad Nauseam
1-2x Slaughter Pact
2x Pact of Negation
9 other cards, I dont know what would be best to include when you dont know what to expect (I dont know my metagame)
Comments would be much appreciated.
That list doesn't need Brain Freeze main (it should be Grapeshot in the sideboard anyway, even without red lands). You do however want maindeck bounce of the split-second variety. You also have to have Meditate to make Doomsday workable. I don't like Cunning Wish due to a high mana cost and its less than desirable effect while comboing. You'll also find that you want more initial mana sources to make Top better and to better play around hate vs control. Your options are more land or Chrome Moxen. Chrome Moxen are worse vs control but help out with your primary storm engine. Land are much better with control but don't really do much extra off Ad Nauseam. I'd recommend 2-3 additional permanent mana sources (with 1-3 lands in the sb if you don't go with additional lands main).
Also, I think the choice is between Ponder and additional protection/lands with the Doomsday builds. Doomsday builds always play IGG because it is an alternate (and very cheap) Doomsday pile as well as one that can play through multiple hate bears from aggro (if they somehow get them down). The solid slots in my hybrid list go like this:
// Maindeck
14 Lands (with 8 fetches, 1 Sea, 2 Basics, and misc config of splash lands)
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Rit
4 LED
3 Cabal Rit
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Mystical Tutor
2 Infernal Tutor
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Doomsday
1 Meditate
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Duress
1 Wipe Away/Krosan Grip
I have 9 slots remaining that I fill with a mix of 20 cards. I usually take at least 2 more mana sources and 2 more bombs with the remaining cards being fairly fluid.
Land #15
Land #16
Protection #5
Protection #6
Protection #7
Protection #8
Bounce/Removal #2
Ad Nauseam #2
Doomsday #2
Tendrils #2
Ponder #1
Ponder #2
Ponder #3
Ponder #4
Cabal Ritual #4
Chrome Mox #1
Chrome Mox #2
Chrome Mox #3
Infernal Tutor #3
Infernal Tutor #4
My sideboard usually has ways to address Chalices and Trinispheres exclusively (Serenity, H.Recall, Ancient Grudge, Shattering Spree), additional protection beyond what I maindeck (Orim's Chant, Pyroblast/Red Elemental Blast, Xantid Swarm, Extirpate), CB hate (KGrip/Wipe Away), a general bounce package of 1 ETruth, 1 Rushing River, 1 Wipe Away, an alternate win condition (Helm + Grapeshot), some number of lands if I'm below 17 (probably the offcolor basic to complement my protection spell (Plains or Mountain) which depends on my choice of Flooded Strand or Bloodstained Mire as Fetches 5-8), and usually has an alternate win condition (in the case that I am playing less than 2 Doomsday maindeck, I have 1-2 Doomsday in the sideboard so I can transform into straight Doomsday vs control). Misc other cards can make it into the deck depending on how I'm feeling like Pyroclasm, Slaughter Pact, Ray of Revelation. The exact sideboard depends on my feel of a metagame and how I configured the mainboard (faster with less protection means I lean more heavily towards an anti-control sideboard or slightly slower with more protection leans me in the way of additional removal spells). I usually bring all the cards mentioned here and build my sideboard on the fly at an event.
I can say for certainty cards that I do not play:
Angel's Grace - I have never needed this card or wanted it. If I can't win with Ad Nauseam I have Doomsday and Ill-Gotten Gains to fall back on, in addition to simple storming out. Against burn I go for Doomsday or Ill-Gotten Gains and I never feel the need to draw my entire deck with Ad Nauseam.
Repeal - This card is all sorts of not good. It's mana intensive against counterbalance because it can still be dazed (or worse, Forced) when compared to Wipe Away (although they do have the same CMC). You have ETruth, Rushing River, and then specific hate cards to deal with Chalices as well as just winning through it (easily done with Chalice @ 0 using Doomsday or Chalice @ 1 using Infernal Tutor -> IGG). You don't want to bring this card in against aggro because it costs more to deal with hate bears like Canonist than simply running Echoing Truth or even Chain of Vapor in its slot.
Chain of Vapor - This card isn't particularly bad, I just want my bounce spells to be able to hit Chalice @ 1. If you are worried about a bounce spell's CMC off Ad Nauseam, this isn't a bad choice. The usual warnings about CB and Countermagic apply.
Swords to Plowshares - This is worse than Slaughter Pact or Chain of Vapor. If you want to STP something chances are you considering comboing instead. If you can't combo and need to, STP will be, at best, bait for a counterspell of some sort. Slaughter Pact costs less and kills all relevant hate bears. Chain of Vapor can be cast off a basic and hits things that aren't creatures (which this build doesn't care much about anyway).
Brain Freeze - This is a worse Grapeshot against everything except maybe Ichorid and Solidarity (and then only if you can Freeze them in response to some sort of card draw otherwise they thank you and then combo out). Grapeshot doubles as removal (relevant in a few different Doomsday piles) and manages to actually kill the opponent. Rarely, you might be able to Grapeshot + Tendrils an opponent postboard as well.
Infernal Contract/Cruel Bargain - With Ad Nauseam I never really want to hit my draw4 (nor do I care most of the time), but as a setup spell the black draw4s eliminate the possibility of using Ad Nauseam. These incidentally also make Doomsday cost more (in terms of life 4 life instead of 2 life to combo).
Pact of Negation - I want my protection to function as protection and disruption. Pact of Negation isn't very good at doing the disruption part. You might say that this deck never wants to play a control role, and I don't really disagree with that, but in tournaments I've often found myself playing this build as a pseudo-combo-control deck (especially the red splash).
I see your point, but don't you agree paying 2 mana for an effect worse than Ponder, or paying 3 mana to see 6 cards seems a little much? I also noticed that drawing into a top with a 1-land hand (which this deck gets about 30% of the times) is just terrible, whereas Ponder would've been much better. Is the advantage of running Doomsday really worth playing Top over Ponder?Quote:
Originally Posted by lolosoon
I fully believe that Top prepares us for the control matchup better than Ponder. I rarely find myself in a position to combo turn 1-2 in a protected manner against Thresh or Dreadstill-like decks and would rather my slots go towards improving my bad matchups than helping out my goldfish speed* (which at a half a turn slower is still faster than everything except Belcher and TES).Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahamuth
*(I believe this so much that I usually play a build with 17 land and 4 Doomsday main with Ad Nauseam + additional fast mana in the sideboard against not-blue).)
Edit: Also, I do agree that top with a 1 land hand is terrible with 14 lands. That's why I normally play 16 lands when I maindeck Ad Nauseam and only 1-2 Chrome Mox.
Okay, I see. With a 17-land build, the odds of getting a multiple-land hand is much higher (EDIT: It's actually around 25%). Also, I can't help but ask: Doesn't it ever happen you are shut off your combo because you can't find a Top/Brainstorm (or used it)?Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
Also, that list seems interesting. Do you still play 1 IGG mainboard? Actually, could you post the list?
It's my normal DDFT list (so yes, I do play 1 IGG). I just sideboard Ad Nauseam, the remainder of the Lotus Petals, and the remaining Cabal Rits for when I face aggro. The extra hate like Pyroblasts, KGrips, and Chants come out for speed and generic bounce. I haven't had many issues with not being able to find a draw spell (I play Brainstorm, Top, and Ponder in the list) but it does sometimes happen. With the move to red blasts main, I find when that happens I can usually just win with a Tendrils after a counterwar. This does move to my argument that ANT is just a derivative of FT (the same 75 with one configured against aggro and the other configured vs control), but I'll save that and the DDFT discussion for another thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahamuth
I agree with your last statement. I like the idea of having a strong game one against control, while still having decent options against Aggro, and post board even more. I have one final question: I see how Top is better in a control matchup, but why is the Doomsday engine desirable over Ad Nauseam?Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
There are a few reasons, not the least of which being life costs. Againt control, you generally lose a decent amount of life to attackers (goyf+goose) and that has the capacity to shutdown AdN hardcore. It's also a more consistant engine. You will never kill yourself or fizzle out if you go off with adequite protection.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahamuth
Hand with 2 or 3 lands with 14 lands in library: 47%. Hand with 2 or 3 lands with 17 lands in library: 55%. It's only about 17% higher, but this isn't taking into account the chances of drawing into land while digging. Then, the difference will end up even higher.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahamuth
The main reason is that Doomsday costs only 2 life. It does require more setup, usually using 1 more specific card when compared to a manaless Nauseam (Ritual, Ritual, Nauseam kind of thing). As far as specific cards go, there's a pile that costs as same specific cards, gets lethal storm on its own and won't ever fizzle without outside assistance, but requires generic cards in hand for replacing with Brainstorm. EDIT: What rsaunder said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahamuth
Why 2 Infernal Tutors? AN/IGG redundancy?Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
Exactly. If I have at least two Infernal Tutor, then Meddling Mage isn't much of a concern to me (at least against my bombs). I generally go up to three, but I don't consider the third or the fourth to be necessary. I just listed what I believe is the minimal list for a deck I'd play (that had Ad Nauseam main).Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaiminho
I too was an inital skeptic of running SDT (along with the Doomsday engine) over Ponder. Ponder led to bigger Turn 2's, since I can set up that turn right away. However, the consistency of SDT allows it to perform much better in practice, and Doomsday is certainly a welcome addition as an engine. Ponder leads to faster goldfishes, but there are less goldfish in the sea nowadays. SDT helps a lot against the sharks.
I've become very frustrated with Serenity. Oftentimes I've had situations where I can Mystical into anti-hate, but can't because what I'm running is Serenity. The opponent then drops a Chalice for 1 which makes it very hard for me. I've swapped them out in favor of Rebuilds.
Do you really need/use the Doomsday Engine Pre Board?
I play them SB, because I didn't need them often enough to waste MD slots.
When do you board them in, though? I think I'd rather run Doomsday MD or not at all, since it's a waste of valuable SB space. If you'll be siding in Doomsday and I assume Meditate as well, then you probably already have the 4 Tops in the MD. Those 2 more cards to fit into the MD is well worth it, IMHO.
I guess boarding in DD and Meditate is good against Aggro, where you haven't got engough life to use AN usefull.
Teko: Do you play SDT main? Maybe you board them in against control and both(DD and Meditate) against Aggro...
Has anybody an idea what to play in the board?
1 Empty the Warrens
3 Pyroblast
2 Volcanic Island
1 Massacre
1 Slaughter Pact
2 Hurklys Recall
3 Serenity
2 XXX (mana short)
If I have Doomsday in the SB, I'll be boarding it in against aggro in case I get to a low life total early, and they have some form of grave hate for IGG. I'll be boarding it in against aggro-control too, as an additional engine against all the combo hate they have, also in case I get smashed down by an early Goyf. I'll be boarding it in against dedicated control too, as it offers flexbility around the control wall that they could establish.
To reiterate, I think it's either you play it MD or not at all.
I have found no need to improve the control matchup with 1 IGG, 1 AdN, 0 DDay, 4 Ponder, 0 Top, 4 Duress, 4 Chant, 14 land list. So I am curious to why you would need Top. Against non-control decks Ponder is way better. Let's compare:Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln;307438[U
Cost/effect:
U: Rearange 3/shuffle, draw 1
1: Draw 1 (only if you can shuffle before you draw another card)
2: Rearange 3, draw 1 ("")
3: Rearange 3, after the next shuffle rearange 3, draw.
The first one seems waaay better if you look at it. The first 2 top situations are strictly worse and to have more effect than Ponder you need to invest 3/4/5 mana! Without even getting more cards or a bigger grave for Cabal rit which is very important in my opinion). With those mana you coud have chained more BS's/Ponders/Tutors.
If you want DDay and IGG (as emidln suggests) you get a significantly higher manacost and less initial manasources for AdN, which I find the best way to combo in most cases (best investment/reward, which means I can combo the fastest with the most protection with AdN).
I feel Cabal Ritual is underrated by the people here. It's my best accelerant if I play against counterspells. My plan becomes: find as many protection spells as possible with BS/Ponder/Mystical/Infernal+1 Cabal and 1 AdN. It becomes a 2 card combo, which allows you to find more protection.
This is my list:
1 AdN
1 IGG
1 ToA
4 Chant
4 Duress
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Infernal Tutor
4 LED
4 Dark Ritual
4 Petal
4 Cabals Ritual
3 Chrome Mox
4 Delta
4 Strand
1 Isle
1 Swamp
2 Sea
2 Tundra
edit: yes there were 3 Moxes missing
That list is three cards short. We have very similar builds though, only differing in my inclusion of the Doomsday engine, with Tops over Ponders.
Perhaps the Chrome Mox are missing.
I wonder how you fit in 4 Ponder, 4 Duress and 4 Orims Chant?
Changing 1 Tundra into 1 Scrubland and playing 1 AdN more would be better
EDIT: You dont play bounce
is this right?
1 Rushing River
1 Chain of Vapour
1 Ad Nauseam?
Don't play 2 Volcanic Islands. If you are playing red lands in the board in order to side Pyroblasts in, play 1 Badlands and 1 Volcanic Island. This deck is much more black mana (accounting for Duresses and Rituals) than blue mana intensive. At least that's true when you don't run Ponder, but Top.Quote:
Originally Posted by FlavaSava
You are missing the default bounce package: Rushing River, Echoing Truth and Wipe Away. The first 2 are general answers for when you don't need Split Second to solve your issues -- River is actually wonderful against Staxish artifacts. The obvious Wipe Away is pretty obvious: CB.
Massacre is only actually good against White Weenie decks with lots of hate bears, so if you see lots of that, I can't advice against it.
Empty the Warrens is garbage. If you aren't doing a crapload of tokens on turn 1, it's possibly not going to do much for the entire game. That card was good when people didn't know how to answer it or was simply afraid of an early storm of 6. Things changed and it's now a pretty bad card. If you are looking for an alternate win condition, run Grapeshot or Brain Freeze.
In this very same page, emidln laid out some nice guide about how to build the hybrid. You might want to take a look at it.