[Deck] The EPIC Elf Survival

Even without the Perfect, just having blockers is enough. The Angel is a 4-turn clock on its own and being able to chump guys in order to protect her will pretty much guarantee a win. Given you should be able to crank out creature after creature, you should be able to block them just fine unless they happen to draw enough remove to kill all your blockers at once and alpha strike to kill her, but even then that's rare.

However, I feel in almost all circumstances getting Progenitus is a better play. Empyrial Archangel is pretty much only better if you're very low on life and need to stay out of burn range. Their creatures are usually much larger than ours because of removal hitting the lords, so within a couple turns they can take down the angel anyway. I'm much more comfortable playing Progenitus and simply racing them, which has worked a good amount of the time. Progenitus itself time walks them as they aren't going to throw creatures in front of it, but they can take down the angel if they have a couple creatures and a burn spell. Instead, putting them on a 2-turn clock is a bit stronger because odds are you'll be able to dump out 1-2 more creatures the following turn to block, then win the game the turn after.

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Originally Posted by Di

Even without the Perfect, just having blockers is enough. The Angel is a 4-turn clock on its own and being able to chump guys in order to protect her will pretty much guarantee a win. Given you should be able to crank out creature after creature, you should be able to block them just fine unless they happen to draw enough remove to kill all your blockers at once and alpha strike to kill her, but even then that's rare.

However, I feel in almost all circumstances getting Progenitus is a better play. Empyrial Archangel is pretty much only better if you're very low on life and need to stay out of burn range. Their creatures are usually much larger than ours because of removal hitting the lords, so within a couple turns they can take down the angel anyway. I'm much more comfortable playing Progenitus and simply racing them, which has worked a good amount of the time. Progenitus itself time walks them as they aren't going to throw creatures in front of it, but they can take down the angel if they have a couple creatures and a burn spell. Instead, putting them on a 2-turn clock is a bit stronger because odds are you'll be able to dump out 1-2 more creatures the following turn to block, then win the game the turn after.

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I'm just curious... Absolute Law is THE card we sideboard against Zoo and burn/red heavy decks. Doesn't this, incorperated with our Archangel, make us unkillable against Zoo (except for Nactl and Goyf)? All bolts to the head will be redirected to Archangel and damage prevented due to Absolute Law giving prot. red.
That will be the saferun ofc.
Resolving progenitus is always good. But by the time you will be able to resolve NO into Prog you will most likely be pretty low on life, around 6-12? By that time I would rather have archangel. I've been playing against Zoo decks pretty much and my little pointy ear friends more than most gets struck by lightning and fire. Which slows this deck down a lot.
If you get the nuts draw and can power out a T2-3 Prog, then it's great to resolve.

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Originally Posted by Hawdes

I'm just curious... Absolute Law is THE card we sideboard against Zoo and burn/red heavy decks. Doesn't this, incorperated with our Archangel, make us unkillable against Zoo (except for Nactl and Goyf)? All bolts to the head will be redirected to Archangel and damage prevented due to Absolute Law giving prot. red.
That will be the saferun ofc.
Resolving progenitus is always good. But by the time you will be able to resolve NO into Prog you will most likely be pretty low on life, around 6-12? By that time I would rather have archangel. I've been playing against Zoo decks pretty much and my little pointy ear friends more than most gets struck by lightning and fire. Which slows this deck down a lot.
If you get the nuts draw and can power out a T2-3 Prog, then it's great to resolve.

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If you have to resolve Absolute Law and Natural Order in a single game against Zoo, quite frankly you could get either one and win the game.

If you resolve Natural Order and you're over 8 life, I would always get Progenitus. Odds are it won't be the only creature you have in play, and odds are when you cast it the opponent isn't going to be holding a hand full of burn, because it'd be going at your creatures before anything else. If you even have the ability to resolve Natural Order, the opponent most likely doesn't have removal in their hand at all, unless you managed to play a creature and Order in the same turn, which is unlikely. Because you know this, getting Progenitus is almost always the right play. Even if you're staring at a few creatures I'd prefer Progenitus if I'm over 6 life in the end. The scenarios can pretty much play out like this:

You have no other creatures in play and cast Order getting Progenitus. This tells you the opponent most likely isn't holding burn, because they would've used it to kill your blocker. So this can play out like so:

- They attack you with their team and lose a guy to Progenitus blocking. They play something. You follow up with what is most likely a creature to block with. They either kill you the following turn through that blocker or lose.

- They don't attack into Progenitus. You essentially time walk them and untap, play a blocker and then attack. They need to hope to somehow deal lethal through a blocker.

Granted it won't always play out like that, but had you gotten Empyrial Archangel without another creature, they merely attack the next turn with their team and kill it. Plus, an extra two turns would be needed to kill them, and they can also quite easily kill the Angel within the following turns after that. If you're in late game and cast Order, Angel will only save you if you have enough blockers to stop their creatures from damaging her, which won't be often. It's more often worth it to put them on a faster clock and have Progenitus block for a turn than hope Angel can get you there.

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Originally Posted by Di

If you have to resolve Absolute Law and Natural Order in a single game against Zoo, quite frankly you could get either one and win the game.

If you resolve Natural Order and you're over 8 life, I would always get Progenitus. Odds are it won't be the only creature you have in play, and odds are when you cast it the opponent isn't going to be holding a hand full of burn, because it'd be going at your creatures before anything else. If you even have the ability to resolve Natural Order, the opponent most likely doesn't have removal in their hand at all, unless you managed to play a creature and Order in the same turn, which is unlikely. Because you know this, getting Progenitus is almost always the right play. Even if you're staring at a few creatures I'd prefer Progenitus if I'm over 6 life in the end. The scenarios can pretty much play out like this:

You have no other creatures in play and cast Order getting Progenitus. This tells you the opponent most likely isn't holding burn, because they would've used it to kill your blocker. So this can play out like so:

- They attack you with their team and lose a guy to Progenitus blocking. They play something. You follow up with what is most likely a creature to block with. They either kill you the following turn through that blocker or lose.

- They don't attack into Progenitus. You essentially time walk them and untap, play a blocker and then attack. They need to hope to somehow deal lethal through a blocker.

Granted it won't always play out like that, but had you gotten Empyrial Archangel without another creature, they merely attack the next turn with their team and kill it. Plus, an extra two turns would be needed to kill them, and they can also quite easily kill the Angel within the following turns after that. If you're in late game and cast Order, Angel will only save you if you have enough blockers to stop their creatures from damaging her, which won't be often. It's more often worth it to put them on a faster clock and have Progenitus block for a turn than hope Angel can get you there.

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But if I have Absolute Law and get attacked by Kird Apes etc. and only have a Archangel in play, if I take that damage and redirect it to Archangel, does it still count as damage from a red source and thus prevented? Or will this kill the archangel even though I redirect leathal damage to the angel?

The damage will be prevented. However, that's still an incredibly narrow situation, and it still doesn't account for the Nacatls, Tarmogoyfs, Pridemages, and KotR that will still be attacking. Even with Absolute Law, it isn't difficult for them to attack high enough to kill the angel, and odds are they'll eventually get enough to kill it. If they alpha strike with green creatures you'll either lose the angel or lose your other creatures blocking them, then lose the angel the following turn, while only getting in 2-3 attack phases with it, which most likely isn't going to kill them.

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Originally Posted by Di

The damage will be prevented. However, that's still an incredibly narrow situation, and it still doesn't account for the Nacatls, Tarmogoyfs, Pridemages, and KotR that will still be attacking. Even with Absolute Law, it isn't difficult for them to attack high enough to kill the angel, and odds are they'll eventually get enough to kill it. If they alpha strike with green creatures you'll either lose the angel or lose your other creatures blocking them, then lose the angel the following turn, while only getting in 2-3 attack phases with it, which most likely isn't going to kill them.

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Ah, I see where you're going... So you should only get Archangel with NO when you're really low?
Which means when you're up against Zoo/Burn Sligh or whatever, you board +3 Absolute Law + 1 Empyrial Archangel? And of course leave progenitus in.
Or would I benefit to board something else to increase my win chances?
As of now my board looks like this:

3 Absolute Law
4 Krosan Grip
1 Acidic Slime (Used against Glacial Chasm and other lands that could be troublesome)
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Woodfall Primus
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Choke

just from my side, I would side in archangel against enchantress.
I wouldn't be too sure against zoo.
be ware that the absolute law will probably not last long in a game against zoo since they mostly play 4 of the exalted guys ...

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Originally Posted by Hawdes

Ah, I see where you're going... So you should only get Archangel with NO when you're really low?
Which means when you're up against Zoo/Burn Sligh or whatever, you board +3 Absolute Law + 1 Empyrial Archangel? And of course leave progenitus in.
Or would I benefit to board something else to increase my win chances?
As of now my board looks like this:

3 Absolute Law
4 Krosan Grip
1 Acidic Slime (Used against Glacial Chasm and other lands that could be troublesome)
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Woodfall Primus
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Choke

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Not quite. I'm saying you shouldn't even run it at all. You'll get Empyrial Archangel maybe 20% of the time against Zoo, and in every other matchup outside of straight Burn Progenitus is the better creature. The number of occasions you even bother getting Empyrial Archangel are incredibly minimal, and it isn't worth the sideboard slot. Speaking of which, I question your sideboard a bit as you have no outs against any graveyard-based decks and have a high number of Natural Order targets that are situational and generally inferior to Progenitus.

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Originally Posted by Di

Not quite. I'm saying you shouldn't even run it at all. You'll get Empyrial Archangel maybe 20% of the time against Zoo, and in every other matchup outside of straight Burn Progenitus is the better creature. The number of occasions you even bother getting Empyrial Archangel are incredibly minimal, and it isn't worth the sideboard slot. Speaking of which, I question your sideboard a bit as you have no outs against any graveyard-based decks and have a high number of Natural Order targets that are situational and generally inferior to Progenitus.

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That's true, although Ichorid or other GY decks haven't seen much play in the meta over here. I don't know which GY hate would be best if those decks would rise in popularity, Relic of Progenitus or Crypt? I can't think of other GY hate that would be played easily, except for Loaming Shaman.
The reason I run Empyrial Archangel might be very narrow but it can fly over moats when Progenitus just sits there and watches. Ofc I have the Krosan Grips to come in against those enchantments, but then again, it's not tutorable. I will drop the Empyrial Archangel sooner or later when I come to realize that it doesn't pull it's weight.

What would you suggest for a board (I've given up on boarding against combo decks since it's a almost impossible matchup either way)? I think that I would keep Woodfall Primus in the board since his interaction in the deck is great, with Cabal Therapies and being able to tutor for it with NO.
The Acidic Slime got a place in the board ever since I played against some people that were running Glacial Chasm in their decks (and I couldn't seem to get Wasteland when I needed it the most). Glacial Chasm hoses this deck when it's run in a Exploration shell with recursion.

If I were to change my board, I would remove Acidic Slime and Empyrial Archangel and open up two more slots, but I dunno what this would be. Relics/Loaming Shamans? Or something else and just ignore GY based decks since I don't face that many?

I'm all ears for any suggestions and card discussions, especially when you more than often explain pros/cons.

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Originally Posted by Hawdes

[...] I think that I would keep Woodfall Primus in the board since his interaction in the deck is great, with Cabal Therapies and being able to tutor for it with NO.
The Acidic Slime got a place in the board ever since I played against some people that were running Glacial Chasm in their decks [...]

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But you know that Woodfall Primus does the same job Acidic Slime does?
Against Glacial Chasm the higher CC shouldn't be relevant, as you simply sit on a horde of mana-producing Elves while attacking would be useless.
I would always prefer the bigger body of WP.

Against Enchantress you need a flyer or some "destroy all enchantments" right before you are able to alpha-strike them. I know,.. Enchantress doesn't see much play these days, but it is a constant threat here. So is Stupid Burn. So my board differs a bit as it consists 1 Empyrial Archangel & 0-3 Reverent Silence/Tranquility/Tranquil Domain (I'm not set on a particular one yet).

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Originally Posted by Radiant

But you know that Woodfall Primus does the same job Acidic Slime does?
Against Glacial Chasm the higher CC shouldn't be relevant, as you simply sit on a horde of mana-producing Elves while attacking would be useless.
I would always prefer the bigger body of WP.

Against Enchantress you need a flyer or some "destroy all enchantments" right before you are able to alpha-strike them. I know,.. Enchantress doesn't see much play these days, but it is a constant threat here. So is Stupid Burn. So my board differs a bit as it consists 1 Empyrial Archangel & 0-3 Reverent Silence/Tranquility/Tranquil Domain (I'm not set on a particular one yet).

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When I read your post I just had to check out woodfall and compare it with acidic. I was convinced Woodfall hit "nonland permanents" but it can't hit creatures... Now that I've settled that, Acidic is out. :)
Was just a matter of time until I would've noticed.

I still like the fact that Empyrial Archangel has flying and shroud, which makes it a better NO target against decks packing Moats etc.
I don't feel very comfortable with to rely on 4 krosan grip to turn my game against a Moat.

I just want to mention something. How do you play against a deck that resolves a Ioona on "green" against this deck? You basically scoop? I can't imagine running creature removal in my board other than StP/PtE since we have the white mana.

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Originally Posted by Hawdes

I just want to mention something. How do you play against a deck that resolves a Ioona on "green" against this deck? You basically scoop? I can't imagine running creature removal in my board other than StP/PtE since we have the white mana.

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I'd just play Virtue's Ruin and laugh. :wink:
Nay, I just like unconventional cards...

I've always wished for some creature-removal, but it's not needed so often, as you can outpower single creatures with a mass of yours, or luckily pick them with Therapy out of the hand before they see play (in the Survival-less version).
'til now I don't see any decks packing Iona MD for sure. I've seen it only in Reanimator so far, but I don't read all threads here.

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Originally Posted by Hawdes

I just want to mention something. How do you play against a deck that resolves a Ioona on "green" against this deck? You basically scoop? I can't imagine running creature removal in my board other than StP/PtE since we have the white mana.

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Well, we have graveyard hate to hit her before shes reanimated, so that helps if we can get that online. Otherwise, I'd run Eyeblight's Ending in my sideboard if it became a problem.

hey, been testing his deck quite a bit now with some friends of mine and am quite pleased with its performance against thresh and goyf sligh and pikula.
however i've been losing more than not to goblins with i feel should have been an atleast equal matchup. been wondering if its just me or if this mu really sucks so much. my friend plays with Stingscourger and some removal, so i keep getting my blockers bounced or removed for the lackey to run though. recovery after that is sometimes possible but not often.
do you think its worth taking about enginered plague instead of the therapys in that mu? or any other suggestions?

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Originally Posted by junor

hey, been testing his deck quite a bit now with some friends of mine and am quite pleased with its performance against thresh and goyf sligh and pikula.
however i've been losing more than not to goblins with i feel should have been an atleast equal matchup. been wondering if its just me or if this mu really sucks so much. my friend plays with Stingscourger and some removal, so i keep getting my blockers bounced or removed for the lackey to run though. recovery after that is sometimes possible but not often.
do you think its worth taking about enginered plague instead of the therapys in that mu? or any other suggestions?

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You have more lords than them. And with lords, your guys are bigger. If you're having trouble with the matchup, try a couple jittes in the board.

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Originally Posted by beastman

You have more lords than them. And with lords, your guys are bigger. If you're having trouble with the matchup, try a couple jittes in the board.

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Absolute Law also helps this matchup. And by that, I mean it makes it insanely good. They essentially can't win through it unless they run something like Perish. The fact that we swarm incredibly well and faster than them barring they getting the nuts, gives us the edge in that matchup. Plus, they have serious issue dealing with you if Progenitus is on the table by turn 3-4. The only ways I've really lost this matchup is under these narrow conditions:

- You're on the draw, they have a turn 1 Lackey, turn 2 removal spell for blocker and happen to have the nutty Piledriver draw.

- You're on the draw without a turn 1 play.

- You're on the play without a turn 1 or two play.

Otherwise, you match all their card advantage very well and much quicker than them, and have Natural Order. If you're on the play have a turn 2 lord, an Elvish Archdruid none the less, it is going to be very difficult for them to win when you are dropping your hand turn 3.

imo, Di is right about the gobo's matchup.
normally we only lose when their first 2 turns are good (i.e. lackey + removal/no T1 drop for us).
If they cannot rush us in turn 2 or 3, then we will have bigger creatures and likely also more of them ...

sideing absolute law against them is just insane, especially since most of them are playing RB and not a lot of RGB anymore
that plus jitte is just game :o)

I'm just wondering why people don't play Planar Void as grave hate? I believe it's very effective for only B against the decks that matters, aggro loam, ichorid etc.

Relic draws you a card, and it doesnt require black to play.

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Originally Posted by beastman

Relic draws you a card, and it doesnt require black to play.

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Although Planar Void isn't a one use activation and access to T1 black isn't that hard to establish against ichorid or other gravedecks.

Maybe the cantrip from Relic is that important, but they serve different roles imo.

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Originally Posted by Hawdes

I'm just wondering why people don't play Planar Void as grave hate? I believe it's very effective for only B against the decks that matters, aggro loam, ichorid etc.

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I play 3 Extirpates sb, Since I have had bad experiences with playing permanent hate and them getting chain of vapored.

Would Nissa be just horrible here?

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Originally Posted by lorddotm

Would Nissa be just horrible here?

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Yes. Nissa is a very niche Planeswalker and she is bad in this deck.

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Originally Posted by lorddotm

Would Nissa be just horrible here?

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There are no plainswalker that would fit in any Elf deck at the moment in my opinion. Nissa has no great impact on the game and flips the gamestate once she hits the board.
And her ability to fetch Nissa's Chosen feels kind of junk when Nissa's Chosen is almost a vanilla 2/3...

We need more power in our elves... Abilities that make a difference.

Elvish Warrior has never even seen play in Standard.

Life gain is a weak strategy

It takes a minimum of six turns after you cast Nissa Revane to activate her ultimate ability and another turn before you can win with it.

No thanks. She's arguably the worst planeswalker Wizards has printed.

Di, is it possible that you update the op with your current list (i.e. the therapy list) and explain how the mu's possibly shifted?
Also would you advise building this over TES when I already have canadian threshold?
Regards,

I've been trying out the list without survivals for awhile, but I just don't find it strong enough.

My list is currently still running survivals, with 3 messengers in it, as I believe that they are what the deck really needs. With all the mana you should have on turn 4, being able to chain a few of them together to dump a bunch of dudes seems neccesary.

I won a mox pearl with Lol elf survival last sunday.

My current list:
16 land
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Forest
2x Taiga
2x Savannah

33 Creatures
4x Llanowar Elves
4x Fyndhorn Elves
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Imperious Perfect
4x Elvish Archdruid
3x Priest of Titania
3x Elvish Champion
3x Quirion Ranger
3x Sylvan Messenger
1x Viridian Zealot

Engine
4x Survival of the Fittest
1x Squee
1x Anger

Alternate Win
4x Natural Order
1x Progenitus



The SB isn't down completely yet, but I know that there are at least 3 each of grips, absolute laws, chokes, and relic of pregenitus'. I'm currently also trying to fit goyf into the board for zoo and sligh matches.

Pics (and report) or it didn't happen!

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Originally Posted by beastman

I won a mox pearl with Lol elf survival last sunday.

My current list:
16 land
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Forest
2x Taiga
2x Savannah

33 Creatures
4x Llanowar Elves
4x Fyndhorn Elves
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Imperious Perfect
4x Elvish Archdruid
3x Priest of Titania
3x Elvish Champion
3x Quirion Ranger
3x Sylvan Messenger
1x Viridian Zealot

Engine
4x Survival of the Fittest
1x Squee
1x Anger

Alternate Win
4x Natural Order
1x Progenitus



The SB isn't down completely yet, but I know that there are at least 3 each of grips, absolute laws, chokes, and relic of pregenitus'. I'm currently also trying to fit goyf into the board for zoo and sligh matches.

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Nice job! This is almost my list exactly, with only a couple differences. I have 17 lands instead of 16 and don't play with Elvish Spirit Guide (instead a fourth Priest, Messenger, etc.). What cards worked for you and what didn't? Did you feel safe going down to only 16 lands? Did you find the ESGs to be worth it, especially when you didn't have a Natural Order along with them? After the tournament, are there any changes you would make to the deck?

I would definetely take goyfs out of the board and put in Absolute laws. I doubted the ESG's also, but at a tournament a little while ago, I talked to birdman and he sai they were one of the best cards in the deck, and they really are amazing. I wouldnt run 4 messengers, as they can be dead draws early game. I have three because that makes it possible to chain enough of them together with survival to just overwhelm any deck. I wanted the 4th priest, but I just couldn't find room.

@Di

I really like the direction your taking with the deck, but for some budget (and metagame) reasons im looking for a build that cuts white. So green/black no survival, could you perhaps point that out for me? :eek:
Or ofcourse someone else if you feel free to help! :wink:

~Maarten

I don't run white in my list I suppose for budget/wasteland reasons but the only white card Di runs is 1-2 Absolute law which you can substitute with Dense Foliage. i just run 7 fetches, 4 bayou and 8 forests, although Di runs -1 forest +1 llanowar which i suppose isnt a massive difference.

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Originally Posted by TheBirdMan

I don't run white in my list I suppose for budget/wasteland reasons but the only white card Di runs is 1-2 Absolute law which you can substitute with Dense Foliage. i just run 7 fetches, 4 bayou and 8 forests, although Di runs -1 forest +1 llanowar which i suppose isnt a massive difference.

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Dense Foliage doesn't protect you from red sweepers. Firespout, Pyroclasm, and Volcanic Fallout. I'd consider Absolute Law to be alot better, but understand the budget restrictions.

It does stop the stps etc but law is great too, i think Di runs both

Isn't Wirewood Symbiote much better than Dense Foliage?

Wirewood Symbiote is way much better than Dense Foliage, but if you really want such a mass-shroud thing, why not Steely Resolve? Okay... it doesn't work with Quirion Rangers, but it costs 1 mana less, against decks, that can bolt your 1st turn drop (L-/F-Elves) that becomes relevant.
AfaIk nobody plays Giant Growth-a-like cards in Legacy.
Or is it, because it shuts down Dreadnought & Stifle (edit: It doesn't) and would protect a Magus of the Moon from the Board.
'though sweepers really kill everything despite the shroud-thingy..

I've been testing Elf Survival, with a similar list, but without NO, with 18 land, and 1 Norwood Priestess. The priestess has been working out really well for me as my 'win now' should I set up survival, and sometimes an 'oops, I win' if I happen to draw progenitus and messenger into her. Has anyone else tested her at all in addition to/instead of 1 NO, as aside from survival, you have no way to discard the 1-of progenitus? (and if you have survival up and running, she costs the same amount of mana (2GGG) as having to pitch master P to survival and then NO.) I'm not a fan of the extra slots NO takes (or the beating it is to have it countered), but enjoy the two slots that allow for a fast win through a ghostly prison, ect.

Curious - Why, aside from the "tap" as opposed to the ":g:, tap" would you use Norwood Priestess as opposed to Elvish Piper? And to that end, wouldn't the latter be laughable in this deck?

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Originally Posted by Nightmare

Curious - Why, aside from the "tap" as opposed to the ":g:, tap" would you use Norwood Priestess as opposed to Elvish Piper? And to that end, wouldn't the latter be laughable in this deck?

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Because it costs exactly the same amount of mana as natural order, can be tutored for with survival, and has haste provided anger is in the graveyard. Would you say that NO is laughable in the deck? The idea behind both is to pay 2GG to put a hasted two turn clock win condition into play with protection from everything into play. I've already said that while it requires SotF, it only takes up two slots to have a Progenitus win in the survival elves shell. NO can win out of nowhere without Survival, but takes up more slots and is more of a beating when it is countered, as NO may be the only reason you kept the hand.

Elvish piper effectively costs an extra mana, which can mean either waiting another turn until you can start swinging, or worse, your opponent casting a pithing needle on her/removing her and needling SofF, where Priestess would have put a hasted progenitus on the board. The ability to drop a guy in at instant speed is hardly needed when the 'guy' is most likely a 10/10 prot everything that likely has haste provided you set SotF up with anger at some point.

Please post comments that are constructive and examine the merits of both strategies. You comment is akin to:

'Curious - Why, aside from the "get the card you tutored for now" as opposed to the "+1 power, and (protect from discard and) draw the card you tutored for next turn" would you use Goblin Matron as opposed to Boggart Harbinger? And to that end, wouldn't the latter be laughable in this deck?'

EDIT: C'mon man, you're a mod - you should be the one yelling at people for making fun of ideas rather than dissecting the merits and drawbacks of the idea and posting constructive comments.