is closing the vial affinity thread up for discussion ? since vial is out and affinity is only thoughtcast
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is closing the vial affinity thread up for discussion ? since vial is out and affinity is only thoughtcast
Branching off the discussion into New & Developmental sounds plausible to me. There are very different approaches, some or all of which may eventually become Established after Besieged gets tournament-legal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lusian
I've been playing 3x Phyrexian Revoker maindeck and he's been great, although I think I would only play him maindeck if you're running Steel Overseer, since a 2/1 often does not want to attack unless buffed by Overseer or Master. I'm also loving the addition of Ancient Tomb to support Tezz. Darksteel Citadel+Tezz=Indestructible 5/5. I'm also leaning toward -1 land (15 total) and adding the fourth Springleaf Drum. I'm still liking my Confidant+Overseer build (even with Thoughtcast).
Tezz is interesting and upon making a double take on what exactly he does I've been curious as to how to plug him in. but I only see him as 2-3 of to give us some reach aside from Disciple if you still run him. I've personally tried ditching Disciple for Signal Pest and I like the speed although I don't know how much I'll miss the range on a gummed up board.
Signal Pest seems to be getting the job done and drops early enough to sneak in some hits with Thopters and Memnites but is still relevant later on.
As you can see I still run Vials and since I put in Bobs and Mystics for my CA. I find that Bobs and Thoughtcast are totally different and shoulndn't be compared. Bobs give you CA farther into the game and should be played after initial threats. Thoughtcast gives you gas now to win next turn or so. When played right Bobs IMO get you farther.
Here's my list for reference.
Creatures:
4 Ornithopter
4 Memnite
4 Dark Confidant
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Signal Pest
4 Master of Etherium
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Stoneforge Mystic
Other Spells:
4 Aether Vial
3 Springleaf Drum
3 Mox Opal
2 Cranial Plating
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Lands:
4 Ancient Den
4 Seat of Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
3 Glimmervoid
2 Ancient Tomb
SB:
2 Tormods
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Etched Champion
1 Ronom Unicorn
1 Kami of Ancient Law
3 Path to Exile
1 Krosan Grip
Signal Pest is the shit.
Thoughtcast >>>>>>>> Dark Confidant. Confidant just doesn't fit in very well in this deck. Thoughtcast and Cranial Plating should both be an automatic 4x. They're probably the two best cards in the deck.
I run both Thoughtcast and Bob. Card advantage wins games. Lands+zero drops makes up for random 5-damage from Thoughtcast. Plus, they usually kill Bob before anything else, which is 1 less removal for your aggro critters.
Yes Signal Pest is.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Big Ragu
I'd really beg to disagree on the Thoughtcast vs Bob thing. They work in two completely different ways. Thoughtcast gives you more cards to use ASAP. Bob on the other hand works as longer term card draw, a lightning rod, and yes, occasionally a beat stick. The Key to bob is playing him after threats. After you've landed your hand is ideally when you play him. It's either they use removal on that Master you dropped the previous turn or take a beating and "waste" removal on Bob. And you can always Vial him in so the decisions become a bit trickier for your opponent.
But I'll agree that Plating in most lists should be a 4 of. I've always played as much of it as I could tbh. But I decided to cut it down due to my Mystics played main. And they pan out well as 2 and since I have a Jitte for those times where they aren't what I need.
To everyone that is testing Phyrexian Revoker:
What are you usually naming in each matchup? Have you tried using it with Canonist against combo?
Naming LED when you know you are facing combo seems like the most obvious way to go...Quote:
Originally Posted by Pltnmngl
1. If MoE is a game-winner in a given game and you have reason to suspect the opponent has removal, you want Confidant out first to draw the removal.Quote:
Originally Posted by hypaflight
If not, a good opponent won't waste removal on it anyway.
2. An early Confidant draws more cards. The opponent doesn't always have removal immediately.
3. Mana-curving generally calls for Confidant out first.
4. Giving the opponent a choice you could make for him is rarely a good strategy, at least not against a good player.
In addition to above:
5. If you have already established/run out of your threats = got to 3 lands and 4 overall mana, why not run something that maximizes the utility of this "leftover mana" or "curve-out". For example, running Jace 2.0 (which immediately brainstorms 3 top cards instead of Dark Confidant's 1 top card next turn) or Tezzeret 2.0 (which immediately creates virtual card advantage by turning "useless" lands into relevant 5/5 creatures) instead of Dark Confidant?
I'm sorry, but if you don't plan to drop Dark Confidant early in the game to generate card advantage over time, there are simply better choices to be run instead of him as the "end-game cards".
Confidant is pretty useless in the late game. Thoughtcast is always beneficial to draw into.
Confidant is just wrong. Affinity should imo stay out of the long game. Isn't its strength supposed to be its speed?
We should make affinity as fast as possible as that's probably where the most successes are to be achieved. Affinity just doesn't have the tools to combat in the long game.
Or am I wrong?
You're right and you're wrong. Affinity's strength, and we're talking pre-SOM traditional builds here, was its speed. But its greatest weakness and the reason it wasn't a tier deck in Legacy is because it had no disruption and no meaningful interactions. Lots of decks in Legacy are fast. But ANT is a dozen times stronger than SI because it can do more than goldfish and hope the opponent can't answer it. And that's all Affinity did. It had no disruption. Goblins is fast and it packs 6-8 mana disruption lands and 4-8 removal spells between Gempalm, Stingscourger, Lightning Bolt, Sharpshooter and SGC. It can win turn 3-5 and still interact. Affinity is the same speed but lacking the interactions. Fish kills slightly slower but has even more interactions with Force, Daze, Pierce and Wasteland as well as Reejery to temporarily remove blockers. Affinity has Plating on Ornithopter. That's your big trump. But with Revoker and Cannonist, you have a disruption plan.Quote:
Originally Posted by gnat
Faster isn't necessarily better. Most Zoo decks have gone away from Lynx builds and towards Punishing Fire builds. You have worse speed but better interaction and mid-late game card advantage. And while you might think Thoughtcast is good, it's not on par with Standstill or Ringleader. I think (and this without testing, so take it with a grain of salt) that Shared Discovery or Ancestral Visions or Standstill would be better for this deck.
Whether or not the disruption and reach available to Affinity is on par with Fish/Goblins I don't know, but it will have to get there before Affinity can become a serious contender. Having excellent disruption against combo isn't as relevant as having excellent game against blue, but it's a step in the right direction.
The thing is Bob is always good played early or late. If I have nothing better to drop then I'll drop him early. If it eats removal then it saved a threat later on. If I play it after threats, which I believe is better than it standing there alone, then it poses a huge problem for my oppenent since it gives me huge stream of gas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Puzzle
So I agree with points 1, 2, and 3 it just really depends on the situation. As for 4, what choice are we talking about here?
And for point 5. It's really simple, Bob is cheap, has a body, and interacts well with Vial. He isn't a "late game card" and I'm not lobbying for Affinity to have a late game. Affinity has no business planning for a late game guaranteed. What I'm thinking about is slowing the deck down a little to give it more relevance mid game. This way the deck still has the nut draw to win with early beats but also has the versatility in utility creatures through Bob and Mystic to win mid game.
I just honestly think Bob, having a body, and acting as a rod are two good reasons to play him. If you got removal then you got me, if you don't then you're screwed. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that the way he's relevant to other decks anyway?
With Ichor Wellspring and Tezzeret 2.0 becoming tournament-legal, we may now have a contender:Quote:
Originally Posted by Karhumies
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...antrip-Ravager
I think most of the lists in here are going in the wrong direction. test this list and see if it works better for you:
Maindeck:
Artifacts
3 Cranial Plating
3 Springleaf Drum
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Thopter Foundry
Artifact Creatures
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Signal Pest
2 Etched Champion
4 Frogmite
4 Memnite
3 Myr Enforcer
2 Ornithopter
Artifact Lands
2 Darksteel Citadel
Creatures
4 Disciple of the Vault
Legendary Artifacts
3 Mox Opal
Sorceries
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Thoughtcast
Artifact Lands
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Tree of Tales
4 Vault of Whispers
Sideboard:
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Engineered Plague
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Krosan Grip
3 Thoughtseize
Quote:
The goal of the list i posted is to win consistently on turn 3. If you do not win on turn 3, you are VERY vulnerable to things like null rod, Pernicious Deed etc.
This is why it does not play master of etherium, Tezzeret etc.
There are 3 cards in the deck for "lategame inevitibility", the 2 etched champions and 1 thopter foundry. These are a better choice than confidant or tezzeret for two reasons: they synnergize better with the rest of the deck and they can help you win on turn 3 with an acceleration heavy draw.
The sideboard is focused on combo because that is by far your worst matchup.
To elaborate a bit more, winning more quickly than the tribal decks is vital as well. There is no way you can compete with the card advantage of a goblin ringleader or huge merefolk in a long game. You simply need to win first.
A little more would be nice though. Why do you think people in the thread are heading the wrong way? What strengths does your list provide that the others lack?Quote:
Originally Posted by RexFTW
Giving more substance than just a list is helpful.
The goal of the list i posted is to win consistently on turn 3. If you do not win on turn 3, you are VERY vulnerable to things like null rod, Pernicious Deed etc.
This is why it does not play master of etherium, Tezzeret etc.
There are 3 cards in the deck for "lategame inevitibility", the 2 etched champions and 1 thopter foundry. These are a better choice than confidant or tezzeret for two reasons: they synnergize better with the rest of the deck and they can help you win on turn 3 with an acceleration heavy draw.
The sideboard is focused on combo because that is by far your worst matchup.
Thank you for elaborating :)Quote:
Originally Posted by RexFTW
I agree with this to an extent. The faster you win the less vulnerable you are to the hate cards, but i think this can be alleviated depending upon the matchups your facing and which hate you're expecting. I've been testing a Tezzeret Artifact Aggro list (I'm not calling it affinity anymore when at the moment i'm running a whole of 6 cards of affinity) that has been showing some promise. Running non-artifact lands (Ancient tomb, islands) and Phyrexian Revoker has helped limit the impact of Deed/Vial/etc.... but Null Rod i have no maindeck out to aside from just hope what i've got on the board can turn sideways and get there. However, i don't expect to see Null Rods anywhere near as often as Deeds. So that's something to consider when deciding what direction you wish to go with the deck. However I do feel my deck is leaning more towards an aggro-control deck, so my take away is going to be different than yours.
I'll give your list some testing as the more aggressive option while I'm trying to refine my list, and come back with some results.
I give a ton of respect to anyone who is willing to actually test!
To elaborate a bit more, winning more quickly than the tribal decks is vital as well. There is no way you can compete with the card advantage of a goblin ringleader or huge merefolk in a long game. You simply need to win first.
side note: if you want to play non-affinity artifact aggro you should probably be playing this: Forgemaster
This is why Steel Overseer is important for any of the slower builds. Merfolk and Goblins have trouble fighting against +1/+1 every turn, especially when you could topdeck an instant win (Cranial Plating).Quote:
Originally Posted by RexFTW
like in my previous post.... if you want to play past turn 3 wouldnt you rather be playing Wurmcoil Engine and Myr Battlesphere than Steel Overseer?
Anybody want to talk about the deck that Top 16 at SCG Indy?
Affinity
A Legacy Magic deck, by Timothy Morrison
16th place at a tournament in Indianapolis on 2011-02-06
As reported at http://www.starcitygames.com
Maindeck:
Artifacts
4 Cranial Plating
3 Springleaf Drum
2 Thopter Foundry
Artifact Creatures
4 Arcbound Ravager
3 Etched Champion
4 Frogmite
4 Memnite
4 Myr Enforcer
2 Ornithopter
4 Signal Pest
Artifact Lands
4 Darksteel Citadel
Creatures
4 Disciple of the Vault
Legendary Artifacts
3 Mox Opal
Sorceries
4 Thoughtcast
Artifact Lands
1 Ancient Den
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
Lands
1 Blinkmoth Nexus
1 Glimmervoid
Sideboard:
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Nihil Spellbomb
4 Pithing Needle
3 Engineered Plague
2 Darkblast
6 0-cost creatures, 6 engine cards(3 mox 3 drum), 6 sac outlets. Land choice is a little questionable, but overall a very tight deck.
I'd rather stick with Affinity for consistency over the Monolith-type builds. Plus, Cranial Plating makes the deck more reslient against removal.Quote:
Originally Posted by RexFTW
Agree with Pltnmngl, This is the right way to play affinity.
If I didn't want to play past turn 3 I think I would play Combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by RexFTW
As for the top 16 in SGC Indy. I shuffled it up and I dunno, I'm not so impressed. It sets up fast but it's a bit underwhelming. It heavily relies on the plating or Disciple+Sac outlet. If It doesn't top deck any of those it has no way of getting through. I felt like I was a playing a bad weenie deck.
I dunno, maybe it's just my results. Anybody else try sleeving it up? I'm honestly confused how it worked.
I'm actually cutting ornithopters for Signal Pests. They're still unblockable and have a bigger impact in the first turns. Tezzeret is a beast, currently running 3. Finally, 4 Etched Champions are a must, since against Zoo and Goblins are a huge beating.
Things that I have cut:
Disciple- It's just too slow, and with only one in play, it does alomst nothing.
Ornithopter- Replacing it with Signal Pests, since too many times Ornithpter is just a blocker for the 4 or more first turns. The only thing that I miss is blocking a Turn one Lackey and surviving.
Frogmites and Enforcers: I've not cutted them completely, just leveling their numbers to make place for other things, mainly Tezzerets and Champions.
Finally, Galvanic Blast is just insane. Excellent topdeck, delivering the last hit, and solid the rest of the match. You cant ask anymore for only one red mana.
I agree with a lot of these. I have not tested Tezzeret yet, but he looks promising.Quote:
Originally Posted by sligh16
Disciple does nothing???? He was BANNED.... making him the most unfair card in the deck.
Sligh16: "Im playing aggro and cutting my first turn plays for 4th turn plays. Weeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!"
I know everyone wants to play with toys from the new set.... so lets take a look at him.
Lets examine his abilities:
If you want to draw cards, glimpse of nature and thoughtcast are going to give you 2-3 cards for just 1 mana of a single color. There is clearly no reason to pay 4 mana and 2 colors to draw 1 card. If you plan to play this ability you better be playing myr enforcer to defend the turn you use it.Quote:
+1: Look at the top five cards of your library. You may reveal an artifact card from among them and put it into your hand. Put the rest on the bottom of your library in any order.
This is optimally 5 damage to the opponents face. On a signal pest or Ornithopter you will have a good chance of getting in. For only a 3 colorless mana investment, Cranial plating does much more. For 2 colored mana you can equip plating as an instant. Obviously, plating is much better.... but you can only play 4 plating. For just 1 mana you can do 4 damage with galvanic blast which also deals with hate like Kataki, Wars Wage and Phyrexian Revoker. This ability is obviously bad.Quote:
-1: Target artifact becomes a 5/5 artifact creature.
The only thing that may make this worthwhile is getting to 4 loyalty, which forces the opponent to attack (or you will ultimate), opening up a path for your guys.Quote:
-4: Target player loses X life and you gain X life, where X is twice the number of artifacts you control.
The ideal play would be: Play Tezzeret, +1, reveal Myr Enforcer, play Myr Enforcer. Is this play good enough? possibly. Is it worth risking missing a myr enforcer? probably not.
I wonder how would you ensure that you always draw Galvanic Blast when you want to pump a creature and Glimpse when you want to draw cards. Tezzeret is flexible, you have to take that into consideration before you just compare each of his abilities with different cards.
Good point, but how can you ensure you will draw 4 mana sources, of the correct colors to play tezzeret :). And they also cost 1 mana instead of 4 lol! that is quite a big edge.
The things tezz does are also in the deck - in a redundant fashion already. There are cranial platings and galvanic blasts for the -1 ability, glimpses and thoughtcasts for the +1 ability and ravagers + disciple of the vaults for the -4. And all of these cards cost much much less mana for mostly better effects.
Should Bant decks play bant charm instead of swords to plowshares? It is quite versatile but far less efficient.
The key thing with Tezzeret is to run enough mana acceleration (Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors) to cast him on T2-T3. For example:Quote:
Originally Posted by RexFTW
T1 artifact land, Memnite, Mox Opal, random artifact.
T2 Ancient Tomb, Tezzeret, turn random artifact into 5/5 (Memnite is there to chump to protect Tezzeret). Swing for 5.
T3 turn artifact land into 5/5. Swing for 10.
T4 turn Mox Opal into 5/5. Swing for 15.
In practise, that's 30 combat damage from 1 card over a period of 3 turns. Simply put, T2 Tezzeret has the potential to dish out more damage over the course of 1 game than a T2 Cranial Plating + equip. Played on T3, the cards are roughly equal in value. From T4-> Tezzeret should rather aim for the ultimatum, and by that time a topdecked Cranial Plating should be better than a topdecked Tezzeret.
I agree that Tezzeret is an inconsistent addition to the deck and he needs a LOT of mana accel to be of any use whatsoever to us. But if you are indeed packing that much mana accel, Tezzeret is almost always better than the card he replaces.
Then why even compare them? These cards obviously have nothing in common, neither functionality nor power level nor Mana cost.Quote:
Originally Posted by RexFTW
Hello everyone. Im the guy that posted 16th at the scg in indy with my affinity list. after reading some of the posts about it on here, i figured i might as well post my two cents about the deck, explain some of the decisions and why they are correct, and some of the things i would change, as well as my report persay.
Maindeck:
Artifacts
4 Cranial Plating
3 Springleaf Drum
2 Thopter Foundry
Artifact Creatures
4 Arcbound Ravager
3 Etched Champion
4 Frogmite
4 Memnite
4 Myr Enforcer
2 Ornithopter
4 Signal Pest
Artifact Lands
4 Darksteel Citadel
Creatures
4 Disciple of the Vault
Legendary Artifacts
3 Mox Opal
Sorceries
4 Thoughtcast
Artifact Lands
1 Ancient Den
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
Lands
1 Blinkmoth Nexus
1 Glimmervoid
Sideboard:
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Nihil Spellbomb
4 Pithing Needle
3 Engineered Plague
2 Darkblast
First off, signal pest is amazing in this deck, it has the ability to put an opponent into serious trouble early. he is definitly better than ornithopter (every time i draw an ornithopter i get mad!), however ornithopter is a neccesary bad card because of springleaf drum. Ornithopter get sacced to foundry or to ravager as soon as they hit the board usually because it dies to every removal spell as soon as ravager or cranial plating hit the board.
Thopter Foundry is all around sick, it by itself wins your control match ups, and makes spot removal virtually useless against you, as well as combos with disciple, makes a huge flyer with ravager, makes your memnites better, gains you life in the aggro match, turns your mid-late game land draws useful, and is really sick with a signal pest on board. 2 was the perfect amount, i wouldnt go lower, and sword of the meek doesnt fit the deck well enough to make it relevant. we tested the hell out of it, in a blue moon it was good, the rest of the time it was just awful.
etched champion is amazing everytime you draw it. You are going to power it out turn 3, 5 out of 7 games its in your opener. It IS Progenitus, and CANNOT BE KILLED by and spot removal which makes it much better than master of etherium ever could be. i dont know if people running master are aware that there are cards called STP, Krosan Grip, Ancient Grudge, Vindicate, Putrefy, Smother, and Path to Exile running around in this format, which makes the card really bad because you have NO WAYS to stop any of this.
Glimpse of Nature does not belong in Affinity. Here are reasons why: 1. It allows you to keep really bad hands. Would you keep the following? memnite, memnite, ornithopter, seat of synod, vault of whispers, springleaf drum, mox opal? NO. it has no real action. If that springleaf drum was a glimpse would you keep it? YES. they force your glimpse and youre in the same boat as if you kept the first hand, no action. secondly it is green, and as we should all know by now there is only 1 good green card that has every been printed (tarmogoyf).
The land base was great all day too. Darksteel Citadel is your basic land for the deck, its the only one that cant be wastelanded, and since only 10% of your deck has color it makes sense to play it as a 4 of. kataki is also bad so 2 sources that arent artifact mana is better than none. I ran the 1 of glimmervoid to help with color fixing and 1 of ancient den to help cast thopter foundry. blinkmoth nexus is better than inkmoth, because if you have your opponent below 10 it makes sense to just kill them instead of giving them 9 infect.
I think i can sum this up best with the word synergy. Each cards function is synergetic with the next and thats why I was successful, and without mulling to 4 against elf combo game 3, and my opponent cheating with goblins twice, im positive that i could have went X-0 on the day. It was a blast playing.
oh yeah, cut 1 bad ornithopter add 1 insanely good champion. and this is THE best and fastest aggro deck in the format. tested and proven.
and to the guy who said cut disciple.........even though I shouldnt even really respond to this....... if it sticks, you win. just saying, cutting it is a worse idea than nail filled condoms.
Thanks TJM, explained a lot.
Thoughts about Ancient Tomb? An extra turn's worth of mana sounds well worth the cost, cuz most of the time you're fast enough that it won't matter. It's not an artifact though, so it might end up balancing out with your affinity creatures pretty often, but it seems like sometimes it does net you a virtual Time Walk.
TJM - Nice decklist and congrats on the finish.
The slots I wonder about most (and I'm no expert Affinity player) are Myr Enforcer and Frogmite... they're, well kinda vanilla. They come online quick and can attack hard - I guess what I'm really wondering is if you're pushing to be that explosive beatdown role, or if something that is a little more conservative and controlling would be better. Example: I've been wanting to run Ethersworn Canonist in the Myr Enforcer spot.
How successful were you with Thoughtcast? A long time Affinity staple, but there are so many other options I'm wondering if you'd consider it a core element of the deck, or something that might be a flex spot.
Lastly, you said 2 Thopter Foundry was the perfect number. Seems like an awesome mid to late game option. My first thought was bump it to 3. Any thoughts?