[DTB] Blade Control

So I brought the list I posted on page 28 to the January NELC event this past weekend and finished in 9th place due to tiebreakers. I plan on writing a report but for those of you who are curious, the deck went 5-1-1 leaving me as the only 16 pointer out of 4 to not top 8. Round 1 I unintentionally drew with RUG tempo, round 2 I beat UW blade 2-0, round 3 I beat GW maverick 2-1, round 4 I beat affinity 2-1, round 5 lost to UWr blade 0-2, round 6 beat UWr blade 2-0, and round 7 beat Bant tempo 2-1. I'll give an in depth report of the matches when I have some time to write them up this week. All in all the list performed great, my friend played the same list to 10th place with a 5-2 record at the event.

Well after boarding, i have 3 extractions, but they can play around surgical if they are good (at least when i try to remove punishing fire). Another option is to waste a grove and surgical the land instead of the fires.
But i want something in my maindeck. I saw scg atlanta lists with geist of seint traft. maybe this is an option.

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Originally Posted by preddi

Well after boarding, i have 3 extractions, but they can play around surgical if they are good (at least when i try to remove punishing fire). Another option is to waste a grove and surgical the land instead of the fires.
But i want something in my maindeck. I saw scg atlanta lists with geist of seint traft. maybe this is an option.

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As I mentioned, you'll have to wait for them to tap their Grove to give you life and then excteact the Punishing Fire in response to the trigger. This way, their Grove is already tapped so they can't trigger it again. Your extraction will resolve first, removing PFire from the game before it goes to their hand. This won't work if they have another untapped Grove in play though (unless you can immediately snapcast the extraction, or have another one in hand). But if they have another Grove in play, wasting one and extracting won't work either, because Surgical Extraction doesn't target cards in play.

If you get the opportunity to waste the Grove and extract, though, you should probably go for it, before they do get 2 in play.

I think Geist could be a reasonable addition. I was planning on trying him out (alongside the Cliques), even before seeing Tony Chu's list from Atlanta. I actually ran him main before I had the Cliques and he did pretty good, although it was only in one local tourney, so it's more anecdotal. He should be good versus the mirror and plenty of other matchups with spot removal, esp. if you can get a sword or powered Jitte on him.

Unequipped, Geist is an opportunity striker at best, but even then he remains a potent threat, keeping your opponent from fully swinging at you lest you race them with Geist + Angel.

Also, if you can get a Sword of Fire and Ice on one of your critters, they'll be immune to Punishing Fire. If Punishing Maverick is that common in your meta, you might want to run that in the maindeck.

If you run geist just be careful with your removal. I've watched a few blade players use stp in order to swing with geist profitably only to get boned later when an actual threat hits the table. Also geist should not just replace clique...I'd choose not to play geist before I cut my cliques.

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Originally Posted by chags

If you run geist just be careful with your removal. I've watched a few blade players use stp in order to swing with geist profitably only to get boned later when an actual threat hits the table. Also geist should not just replace clique...I'd choose not to play geist before I cut my cliques.

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Can you explain how they got boned? Because he couldn't swing anymore, or some other reason?

Presumably Plowing a 2+ power blocker to try and get quick pressure in with Geist swings and then getting rolled by Knight of the Reliquary.

On the topic of Geist one can attack, generating the 4/4 and if they have a blocker, Karakas could be used to protect Geist. This is only situationally a productive line of play, but ground stalls definitely come up.

The issue I see with Geist is that he's really just a resilient clock. The deck already has 4 SFM, 3 Clique and 2-4 Planeswalkers occupying win-condition slots and all of these cards bring utility to the table. I'm not sure what I'd be comfortable cutting to accommodate him.

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Originally Posted by from Cairo

The issue I see with Geist is that he's really just a resilient clock. The deck already has 4 Knight, 3 Clique and 2-4 Planeswalkers occupying win-condition slots and all of these cards bring utility to the table. I'm not sure what I'd be comfortable cutting to accommodate him.

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Sorry, which deck has 4 Knight? No Blade Control (U/W Stoneblade) list that I've seen. The only green I've seen run in U/W Stoneblade is for Krosan's Grip.

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Originally Posted by matunos

Sorry, which deck has 4 Knight? No Blade Control (U/W Stoneblade) list that I've seen. The only green I've seen run in U/W Stoneblade is for Krosan's Grip.

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My bad, I guess I was thinking Stoneforge and was typing Knight. My overall point was that Geist is purely a win condition. Stoneforge, Snapcaster, Jace and Elspeth can all provide effects to bounce back from unfavorable positions; Vendilion Clique can proactively navigate around some of those positions. For these reasons I can't really see cutting into the core win conditions for Geist. I don't really see a place for him in the MD.

Against control and combo I can totally see Geist shining, keep them off few (if any) blockers and seal the game quickly. But against agro the deck tends to have to grind out it's matches and Geist doesn't help too much against an unfavorable board position. I'd certainly rather be drawing SFM, Snapcaster, or a Planeswalker against Maverick, Junk/Deadguy or tribal.

Okay, so what does everyone think about Tony Chu's changes to his deck? For those of you who don't know, Chu won the SCG Charlotte Legacy Open on 11DEC11 with this deck: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=42657 and then recently won the SCG Atlanta Open on 08JAN12 with this deck: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=43048

Changes to his most recent deck are:
+2 Geist of Saint Traft
+1 Umezawa's Jitte
+1 Wasteland (3 total)
+2 Mana Leak
+4 Mishra's Factory
+1 Oblivion Ring
+1 Tower of the Magistrate
-2 Counterspell
-1 Island
-1 Karakas
-2 Mutavault
-1 Riptide Laboratory (0 Maindeck)
-2 Spellstutter Sprite
-1 Sword of Feast and Famine
-2 Vendilion Clique

You can see a side-by-side of his lists here: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...57&deck2=43048

Todd Anderson (13th place) also swapped the Counterspells for Mana Leaks

Looking at Chu's sideboard, I think he made 2 interesting choices:

1. Leyline of the Void - What exactly are the odds of drawing a Leyline in your opening 7? 40%? And does it drop to 35% if you mull to 6? Leyline is the toughest SB hate to play around, but Surgical Extraction is good with Snapcaster. If you gave me the option of Leyline in play or Surgical in hand, I would pick Leyline all day, but what scares me is the game I mull to 5 and don't see one. Also, since this deck has no way to hard cast them, they are totally deck draws later in the game. I know we can Brainstorm/Jace them away, but how about 2 Surgical/2 Relic?

2. Krosan Grips - I like that Chu packs Artifact/Enchantment hate (something UW has been known to be weak to), but what concerns me is he only has 1 green mana source (Tropical Island). I realize you can leave a fetch until you need to use Grip, but Wasteland isn't going to let that Tropical Island hang around for long. Crucible provides an ability for recursion, but with only 1 in the deck, it is a long shot. Disenchant is weak to Spell Snare, Counterbalance and Batterskull bounce, but it is easier to flash back with Snapcaster. Thoughts!

Just wanted to get the conversation started. Interesting changes Chu made, removing the Faerie package and making the UW Legacy Stoneblade more like the Standard UW deck.

Is Tower of the Magistrate better than Kor Haven? They both shut down an equipped attacker, both are susceptible to Wasteland and can tap for colorless, but Kor Haven isn't only relevant against Stoneforge Mystic decks. Magistrate is admittedly a bigger beating against Stoneforge decks giving a Germ pro-Artifact leaving the 'Skull hanging, but it seems like pretty narrow application. I could totally be missing something, but Magistrate seems loose.

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Originally Posted by from Cairo

Is Tower of the Magistrate better than Kor Haven? They both shut down an equipped attacker, both are susceptible to Wasteland and can tap for colorless, but Kor Haven isn't only relevant against Stoneforge Mystic decks. Magistrate is admittedly a bigger beating against Stoneforge decks giving a Germ pro-Artifact leaving the 'Skull hanging, but it seems like pretty narrow application. I could totally be missing something, but Magistrate seems loose.

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I think the beauty of Tower of the Magistrate is that you remove the threat. True, they can bounce and replay the Batterskull, but that costs 5 mana with a SFM in play, 8 without. It can be used against Maverick in addition to the mirror. I agree, it seems loose, especially with no way to search for the lone Tower, but if you've got the spot, it beats a basic Island. I guess it could also be used against Death & Taxes, to prevent a Mirsha's Factory from pumping itself or to strip a Cranial Plating off Affinity. Plus, Umezawa's Jitte sees play in a lot of decks (Zoo, Merfolk, etc.).

Personally, I like Maze of Ith over Kor Haven. I realize Kor Haven taps for a colorless, but it costs W1 to activate, so it seems like a 'win more' card.

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Originally Posted by Water_Wizard

Personally, I like Maze of Ith over Kor Haven. I realize Kor Haven taps for a colorless, but it costs W1 to activate, so it seems like a 'win more' card.

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I was wondering the same thing, wrt Maze vs Kor Haven. On the pro side for the Haven is that I guess you can still have your blocker deal damage while being protected from the incoming attacker. On the pro side for the Maze, it makes for good general defense as well as a good pairing with an attacking Geist. Personally, I have a weakness against Bant with KotR and exalted, so a Maze would disrupt that as well. Then again, the main problem I have is getting my non-basics wasted from Knights fetching Wastelands...

Re dropping Riptide: I think it makes sense with a more aggressive deck. I've found that I generally only start thinking about bouncing wizards in the late game due to the cost, and Chu's deck wants to put more of a clock in place. Plus, you can still bounce your Vendilion (and Geist) with a Karakas if you have one, and bouncing and recasting a Vendilion seems like a more disruptive play in the long run, and for less mana (if you include the cost of snapcasting a spell; the same amount of mana otherwise, including the tapping of Karakas).

On the other hand, I have found uses for Academy Ruins in the mid game when I was running Engineered Explosives (when I was splashing red; currently I'm trying to go purer U/W with the Geists, though I also have the Trop and Krosans in the SB). But without recurring explosives, it becomes somewhat of an edge case. Recurring equipment would obviously be useful, but is it worth the slot for that?

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Originally Posted by matunos

I was wondering the same thing, wrt Maze vs Kor Haven. On the pro side for the Haven is that I guess you can still have your blocker deal damage while being protected from the incoming attacker. On the pro side for the Maze, it makes for good general defense as well as a good pairing with an attacking Geist. Personally, I have a weakness against Bant with KotR and exalted, so a Maze would disrupt that as well. Then again, the main problem I have is getting my non-basics wasted from Knights fetching Wastelands...

Re dropping Riptide: I think it makes sense with a more aggressive deck. I've found that I generally only start thinking about bouncing wizards in the late game due to the cost, and Chu's deck wants to put more of a clock in place. Plus, you can still bounce your Vendilion (and Geist) with a Karakas if you have one, and bouncing and recasting a Vendilion seems like a more disruptive play in the long run, and for less mana (if you include the cost of snapcasting a spell; the same amount of mana otherwise, including the tapping of Karakas).

On the other hand, I have found uses for Academy Ruins in the mid game when I was running Engineered Explosives (when I was splashing red; currently I'm trying to go purer U/W with the Geists, though I also have the Trop and Krosans in the SB). But without recurring explosives, it becomes somewhat of an edge case. Recurring equipment would obviously be useful, but is it worth the slot for that?

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Chu cut Karakas as well, so no bouncing of Clique/Geist at all. I think for this deck, it is best to leave Maze of Ith/Kor Haven out.
The Tower of the Magistrate/Riptide Laboratory/Academy Ruins/Karakas situation warrants discussion. For Academy Ruins, I think this plays best in the Counterbalance/Enlightened Tutor deck, as you will have more artifacts and can fit in Tolaria West. Tower/Karakas is a meta decision - Tower to stop Batterskull and Karakas to stop Emrakul/Reanimator

I'm more interested in Chu's source of sideboard graveyard hate - Leyline of the Void over Surgical Extraction/Relic of Progenitus. I've played with Leyline's in this list and it just such a dead draw later in the game. Surgical is nice with Snapcaster. Perhaps I'll switch.

Also, Tower can protect your guys from Jitte counters and SoFI damage.

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Originally Posted by Water_Wizard

Chu cut Karakas as well, so no bouncing of Clique/Geist at all. I think for this deck, it is best to leave Maze of Ith/Kor Haven out.
The Tower of the Magistrate/Riptide Laboratory/Academy Ruins/Karakas situation warrants discussion. For Academy Ruins, I think this plays best in the Counterbalance/Enlightened Tutor deck, as you will have more artifacts and can fit in Tolaria West. Tower/Karakas is a meta decision - Tower to stop Batterskull and Karakas to stop Emrakul/Reanimator

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I'm interested in knowing why the Maze isn't right for this deck. It certainly seems to be the consensus, but why?

Also, don't forget about Karakas vs Marit Lage ;-)

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Originally Posted by matunos

I'm interested in knowing why the Maze isn't right for this deck. It certainly seems to be the consensus, but why?

Also, don't forget about Karakas vs Marit Lage ;-)

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True, Karakas does wreck Dark Depths, but so does Wasteland (pre-Marit Lage) and Swords to Plowshares / Path to Exile / Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Shame that deck isn't seeing much play.

I think the reason Maze is wrong for this deck is 3 fold:
1. You want the threats off-board. You want to STP/PTE/WOG away creatures, not keep them on board and nullify them.
2. You have no way to search for Maze of Ith. In Maverick or Bant, you have Knight of the Reliquary and you can search for Maze at instant speed. In 40 Lands (which runs 4 Maze of Ith), you are dumping your entire library in your graveyard and can bring it back with Life from the Loam.
3. Maze of Ith produces no mana. In this deck, you need all your mana drops to count and an opener with 2 land and a Maze is not as good as an opener with 3 mana-producing land.

Also, Maze is dead against creature-less decks (Storm, Hive Mind, High Tide, Enchantress, combo, etc.). In a deck with KotR (or any other creature with a tap effect), you can attack with your creature and in response to combat damage, untap with the Maze. The damage still goes through and you can use your tap effect, basically giving your creature vigilance, so it's still not a completely dead card versus a creature-less deck (although should be boarded out).

Congrats goes out to Tony Chu for pulling down another victory with U/W stoneblade (take a look, as he didn't use Karakas).

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=2435

I like it; even if it does splash green.

I'm trying to find a way to fit jitte into the main and am having trouble with what to remove.

I'm running SOFF and Batterskull as equipment and fairy version of the deck.

I've been thinking of moving a single Force of Will to the sideboard to accommodate the main deck jitte or going to 61 cards. Any opinions?

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Originally Posted by bkemke

I'm trying to find a way to fit jitte into the main and am having trouble with what to remove.

I'm running SOFF and Batterskull as equipment and fairy version of the deck.

I've been thinking of moving a single Force of Will to the sideboard to accommodate the main deck jitte or going to 61 cards. Any opinions?

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You could drop to 3 FOW. This guy did it: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...hould_Too.html and said it works well.

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Originally Posted by Water_Wizard

You could drop to 3 FOW. This guy did it: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...hould_Too.html and said it works well.

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Thanks, that's a really good article

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Originally Posted by bkemke

Thanks, that's a really good article

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This one's also pretty good, too: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...toneforge.html Enjoy!

22 Land
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tundra
4 Island
2 Plains
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas

10 Creatures
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vendilion Clique

28 Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Umezawa's Jitte

15 Sideboard
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Spell Pierce
3 Path to Exile
2 Wrath of God
2 Sower of Temptation
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

Played this to a 3-1 finish tonight.

Thopters (2-0)
UR Delver (1-2)
Burn (2-1)
Combo Elves (2-1)

It's more of a tempo build. Any recommendations? I've preferred this version over the clunky lists with tons of manlands and no Dazes.

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Originally Posted by RaNDoMxGeSTuReS

22 Land
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tundra
4 Island
2 Plains
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas

10 Creatures
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vendilion Clique

28 Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Umezawa's Jitte

15 Sideboard
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Spell Pierce
3 Path to Exile
2 Wrath of God
2 Sower of Temptation
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

Played this to a 3-1 finish tonight.

Thopters (2-0)
UR Delver (1-2)
Burn (2-1)
Combo Elves (2-1)

It's more of a tempo build. Any recommendations? I've preferred this version over the clunky lists with tons of manlands and no Dazes.

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I like your list, but have you found 2 Jaces to be enough? I like at least 3, even with a more tempo oriented approach.

I think two is the correct number. I chose to run a Crucible of Worlds over the third Jace to have some late game inevitability in case the tempo plan didn't work out (this route panned out well.)

My hand was never flooded with extra copies. I typically drew into him so he wasn't pitched to Force of Will too often.

That works. I really like the inclusion of Stifle in here because sometimes it wins games by itself. Snapcasting back a Stifle is dirty also.

EDIT: I have found Daze to be incredibly useful against Maverick. Zenith effectively makes their creatures cost an additional mana, so Daze shines. Post board you can Daze to reset Islands after Choke.

The only thing I missed was not having some sort of Disenchant effect. But yeah, Stifle as a 4-of with Snapcaster is fucking sick.

Tapping out for a turn two SFM with Daze backup is such a great feeling.

Heres my decklist so far for scgdc.



T1 UW Stoneblade
60 cards, 15 sideboard
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Marsh Flats
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
3 Wasteland
23 lands


4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
11 creatures


3 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
2 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Counterspell
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Batterskull
4 Force of Will
26 other spells


Sideboard
4 Surgical Extraction
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Wrath of God
3 Disenchant
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Path to Exile
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
15 sideboard cards

Created with Decked Builder

Still undecided about the sb if i should put in mind break traps for the storm matchup.
Im wondering also if I should switch out the ancestral visions for dazes instead. Theyve always been great during the mid/late game after killing or countering threats that gets played.

Also, what about using inkmoths instead of factories? The flying can help me get there against groundstalls, especially with equipment.
Sent from my iPhone

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Originally Posted by RaNDoMxGeSTuReS

The only thing I missed was not having some sort of Disenchant effect. But yeah, Stifle as a 4-of with Snapcaster is fucking sick.

Tapping out for a turn two SFM with Daze backup is such a great feeling.

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I'm skeptical. Against control, SFM can be snared, so if you were on the draw, your opponent can afford the 1. Or, they can StP the SFM next turn and now you're not only set back a land, but left with an Equipment you can't play for another 2 turns at the minimum (assuming you fetched the Batterskull and have another SFM handy). And if you're tapping out on T2 to play your business, you're not able to Stifle their fetches. If they know you're playing Stifle, they're going to fetch when you're tapped out. Finally, in the mirror, by playing the Daze instead of FoW, you've telegraphed that you're probably not holding a FoW, so they can make their move (were it me, I'd assume you still have removal and probably fetch for a Jitte or Sword; and if I get an early Jitte active against you, you're toast).

I also think 2 Jace is probably correct. Or probably no Jaces. RUG Delver doesn't play any Jace because Jace takes 4 mana. If you're relying on Daze for tempo, you're going to reach 4 mana slower than a normal Stoneblade deck (or, more likely, you're going to be holding a lot of Dazes). Other decks with Jace are going to get there first, either because they drew out a Daze from you to put you back a land, or simply because they run 3 Jaces (and often an Elspeth, so there's that too).

Daze and Stifle get progressively worse as the game goes on (and Daze becomes a really ugly Snapcaster target) while real control spells get better, so I'm also skeptical of how great the synergy is with Snapcaster mage. What exactly are you stifling at that point? The opponent's Snapcaster/Vendilion/SFM triggers? I don't think that's enough. I'd rather be flashing back real counters and removal in the late game, like your opponents will be.

You don't have nearly enough cheap threats to keep up with Zoo, Maverick or RUG Delver. Great, you stifled their fetch. You still don't have any threats out, so they're going to develop faster than you will.

In other words, I think control/mirror is going to sit back and out-control you, and I think aggro is going to out-aggro you. I wasn't playing Stoneblade (or Landstill) in the days of Mental Misstep, but the consensus (for what that's worth) seems to be that Stoneblade is not competitive as aggro-control post-MM. If you want a tempo deck, I think you'd be better off dropping the Stoneblade package altogether and playing Delver.

That's just my $0.02, though. If you stick with the list, I'm curious how it works out for you outside the realm of speculation. And if you prove me wrong, maybe I'll try it too. ;-)

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Originally Posted by Djz05

Still undecided about the sb if i should put in mind break traps for the storm matchup.
Im wondering also if I should switch out the ancestral visions for dazes instead. Theyve always been great during the mid/late game after killing or countering threats that gets played.

Also, what about using inkmoths instead of factories? The flying can help me get there against groundstalls, especially with equipment.
Sent from my iPhone

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If you're worried about storm, I think Flusterstorm is more versatile. But really you have enough general purpose counters anyway that neither should be necessary. Actually, that's not true, you don't have enough counters, as I see you're playing only 2 Spell Snares, 2 Counterspells and 4 FoW. But if you're not going to add 2 more counters of some sort main deck, I'd add some Spell Pierces or Mana Leaks in the side. (I think Spell Pierce is more useful than Flusterstorm in general because it can target more spells [artifacts, enchantments, certain planeswalkers against which you have no removal], and except when countering a storm chain, Flusterstorm is often payable for 2 anyway.)

The problem with Inkmoths, IMO, is that they have no synergy with anything else in the deck, because nothing else has infect. So, you either need to ping your opponent 10 times with Inkmoths for the win (or equip them, which will get expensive since you're not running SoFF main), or else having them at all was useless. BTW, why aren't you running SoFF main? I think it's better in general than SoFI, except against decks where the pro red/blue is obviously useful. Inkmoths don't make very good blockers because they're 1/1 and not pumpable like Mishra's (unless you are also playing Blinkmoth, but can you really afford to do that to your mana base?) and they don't have any other useful quirks like Mutavault has with Spellstutters and Riptide. All that, and they're over 5x more expensive than 4E Mishra's.

Mishra's may not always be able to attack (IMO, they're more useful for defense unless/until you can put a sword on them), but when they do, they deal normal damage like anyone else, can pump each other, and can pump themselves to 3/3 when blocking. If you're playing Spellstutters, then Mutavault has its obvious uses, but otherwise I think Mishra's outclasses it.

I think Academy Ruins loses its luster when you're not playing Engineered Explosives (which itself loses its luster if you're not splashing a 3rd color). Relying on it to recur your equipment is going to leave you disappointed most of the time when you either don't draw the ruins, or you draw it when you don't want it (or it gets wasted). You need other strategies to protect your equipment; or board out your Batterskull if you can't support it (again I will mention that you have two fewer counters than most U/W Stoneblade decks). I would consider either Riptide Academy or Tower of the Magistrate, depending on the meta (and I would be surprised if you don't run into a lot of mirror matches at SCG).

3 Disenchants in the SB seems like 1 too many. If you're concerned about the mirror, I think there are better options, like Geist of Saint Traft and Tower of the Magistrate. Mainly, I think the echantment/artifact hate is for problematic cards like Choke. But Disenchant won't get you out of a Countertop lock (which is one of the places where Krosan's Grip's 3cc comes in handy). I would consider replacing a Disenchant with an O-Ring, if you can't fit an O-Ring in main.

The Phyrexian Metamorph is interesting, and I've been thinking about trying him out in the sideboard (I currently have a Llewan auditioning there), but an O-Ring may prove more useful in the main deck. His ability to replicate a Batterskull is nice (if that's what he's there for), but I don't think it justifies playing him main. I'd think of it as a bonus against a deck you want him in for, in case their business (Progenitus, Emrakul, Geist [but he can just as easily be stopped by a Snapcaster], etc.) doesn't work out.

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Originally Posted by matunos

I'm skeptical. Against control, SFM can be snared, so if you were on the draw, your opponent can afford the 1. Or, they can StP the SFM next turn and now you're not only set back a land, but left with an Equipment you can't play for another 2 turns at the minimum (assuming you fetched the Batterskull and have another SFM handy). And if you're tapping out on T2 to play your business, you're not able to Stifle their fetches. If they know you're playing Stifle, they're going to fetch when you're tapped out. Finally, in the mirror, by playing the Daze instead of FoW, you've telegraphed that you're probably not holding a FoW, so they can make their move (were it me, I'd assume you still have removal and probably fetch for a Jitte or Sword; and if I get an early Jitte active against you, you're toast).

I also think 2 Jace is probably correct. Or probably no Jaces. RUG Delver doesn't play any Jace because Jace takes 4 mana. If you're relying on Daze for tempo, you're going to reach 4 mana slower than a normal Stoneblade deck (or, more likely, you're going to be holding a lot of Dazes). Other decks with Jace are going to get there first, either because they drew out a Daze from you to put you back a land, or simply because they run 3 Jaces (and often an Elspeth, so there's that too).

Daze and Stifle get progressively worse as the game goes on (and Daze becomes a really ugly Snapcaster target) while real control spells get better, so I'm also skeptical of how great the synergy is with Snapcaster mage. What exactly are you stifling at that point? The opponent's Snapcaster/Vendilion/SFM triggers? I don't think that's enough. I'd rather be flashing back real counters and removal in the late game, like your opponents will be.

You don't have nearly enough cheap threats to keep up with Zoo, Maverick or RUG Delver. Great, you stifled their fetch. You still don't have any threats out, so they're going to develop faster than you will.

In other words, I think control/mirror is going to sit back and out-control you, and I think aggro is going to out-aggro you. I wasn't playing Stoneblade (or Landstill) in the days of Mental Misstep, but the consensus (for what that's worth) seems to be that Stoneblade is not competitive as aggro-control post-MM. If you want a tempo deck, I think you'd be better off dropping the Stoneblade package altogether and playing Delver.

That's just my $0.02, though. If you stick with the list, I'm curious how it works out for you outside the realm of speculation. And if you prove me wrong, maybe I'll try it too. ;-)

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So with that wall of text you're saying you'd rather play a more controlling version of UW Stoneforge than a more tempo oriented one?

It seems you're trying to explain to me what Thresh, Landstill and Stoneforge decks are. And probably something along the lines of tempo.

Sorry if that comes off offensive. I just wanted some clarification on your comment.

The deck is solid against control, combo and most aggro strategies. There are always relevant Stifle targets. If I don't need it, it's always decent Force of Will fodder.

Tempo decks don't want a late game.

tldr; we're talking about different play styles

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RaNDoMxGeSTuReS

So with that wall of text you're saying you'd rather play a more controlling version of UW Stoneforge than a more tempo oriented one?

It seems you're trying to explain to me what Thresh, Landstill and Stoneforge decks are. And probably something along the lines of tempo.

Sorry if that comes off offensive. I just wanted some clarification on your comment.

The deck is solid against control, combo and most aggro strategies. There are always relevant Stifle targets. If I don't need it, it's always decent Force of Will fodder.

Tempo decks don't want a late game.

tldr; we're talking about different play styles

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It's not just different play styles, it's what your deck is good at. A tempo deck doesn't have time to fool around with Stoneforge this, equip that. A tempo deck's job is to drop a dumb beater and ride it to victory while using tempo positive cards like Daze, Stifle, and Wasteland. It seems to me like matunos is trying to be helpful and you are getting sassy. Every successful Stoneblade list to my knowledge has gone the "controlling route" whereas every successful tempo deck I've heard of runs Tarmogoyf or Aether Vial.

And @Djz05, drop the Ancestrals (or board them) for 2 more Spell Snares and then whatever else you like... maybe a Spell Pierce? And change out the Marsh Flats for another Blue fetch. Phyrexian Metamorph might be cool, but it might just be better as a Spell Pierce or Vendilion Clique. The SoFI should probably also switch with the SoFF since Maverick is a real threat.

I'm still a bit torn myself between Disenchant and Oblivion Ring. Disenchant is better in every way against artifacts and enchantments, but O-Ring just hits everything... meaning I don't just have to board it in against decks with a bunch of artifacts/enchantments, I can board it against Merfolk (and either hit a dude or a Vial/Jitte), RUG tempo (creatures or Sylvan Library), Zoo (creatures or Library), etc. Against those decks, I doubt I can afford to board in Disenchant, but Oblivion Ring can slide right in and fill any role. However, against decks that run multiple problem artifacts/enchantments, Disenchant is instant, cheaper, doesn't sit on the battlefield, and reusable via Snapcaster.

Yeah im taking out the visions for some more counters. Same with the sword, going to mb feast or famine. The metamorph, disenchant, ruins im still on the fence. Got a couple more playtesting the next few days and see how i feel about it.

I'm not convinced yet. I believe you can play the tempo role with Stoneforge Mystic.

Give it a shot. When you play Stifle, it really plays as a different deck.

I have tried it. The problem I was having is that I Stifle some fetches, Daze some stuff, maybe Wasteland and then I sit there for two or three turns because I can't seal the game. Meanwhile, they rebuild and then we are back on equal footing.

The best case I can think of is t1 Stifle, t2 Stoneforge, Daze them, t3 Batterskull/Wasteland them, and ride to victory. The problem with that though is that if you're disrupted anywhere although the way, you get really behind. They play a basic, can't Stifle, they Spell Snare/remove your Mystic, now you have no action for the next 3 turns, they Daze/FoW/Pierce you back or maybe they fetched basics while you tapped down, etc, etc...

If you're running Goyf/Goblin Guide and Delver, you have multiple cheap threats to get in there. And once they finally deal with your threats, you have 4-12 Bolt-effects to finish them off. Stoneblade has none of that, so when you stumble or they play around Stifle/Daze, you can't recover. If you want to play Stifleblade, go ahead, but in mine (and other's) testing, it just doesn't get there often enough. In my opinion, even the optimal Stifle decks (RUG or UR Delver) don't even get there often enough against the meta full of Stoneblade, Maverick, and Reanimator.

For those of you dismissing Stifle; test the list. There are some hands that you can just crush with Stifle/Wasteland. How many opening hands do opponents keep consisting of Dual, Fetch, Brainstorm, other stuff? Probably quite a lot. Stifle seems great in the mirror as well. It turns SFM into Squire and Snapcaster into a flashy Coral Merfolk. All I'm saying is test the list before you bash it.

Hi all. Im a bit new to this deck. Anyone considered placing Counterbalance? What are the advantages and disadvantages? What do you remove?

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Originally Posted by unemployer

Hi all. Im a bit new to this deck. Anyone considered placing Counterbalance? What are the advantages and disadvantages? What do you remove?

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Its been done and tried before. Check post #542 a few pages back to see some decklists. I personally think it just dillutes the deck but then ive been used to playing counterbalance-thopters without creatures.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by unemployer

Hi all. Im a bit new to this deck. Anyone considered placing Counterbalance? What are the advantages and disadvantages? What do you remove?

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Countertop is a different list and has a different thread. Since you really need 4 Sensei's Diving Top and 4 Counterbalance to run Countertop effectively, it changes the UW Stoneblade build significantly. They are both control lists and share similar colors, but UW Stoneblade is more aggressive. Countertop is one of the most control oriented decks available in Legacy and usually relies on Thopter Foundry and Sword of the Meek or Jace's ultimate for the kill.

Here is the thread: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ype-CounterTop

Here is a similar thread: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...p-Superfriends

Here is a good, recent UWb Countertop list: http://decks.mtgoacademy.com/Decks.aspx?ID=78478

Hope this helps.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RaNDoMxGeSTuReS

So with that wall of text you're saying you'd rather play a more controlling version of UW Stoneforge than a more tempo oriented one?

It seems you're trying to explain to me what Thresh, Landstill and Stoneforge decks are. And probably something along the lines of tempo.

Sorry if that comes off offensive. I just wanted some clarification on your comment.

The deck is solid against control, combo and most aggro strategies. There are always relevant Stifle targets. If I don't need it, it's always decent Force of Will fodder.

Tempo decks don't want a late game.

tldr; we're talking about different play styles

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Actually I'm not talking about personal preferences. I'm saying that I'm skeptical that a tempo-oriented U/W Stoneblade build will work well.

Of course tempo strategies don't want a late game, that was my point about Jace. Jace is a late game card, and you're not only playing 22 lands, but also relying on Dazes. So why not drop Jace and put in some more cheap threats, like some certain powerful blue one-drops?

You may say there are always relevant Stifle targets, but you have to agree that Stifle (and Daze) get worse to useless as the game goes late, and it's not like you have an unlimited supply of FoWs. So if you really want to follow a tempo path, I think you'd want to take a page from Delver's book and drop Jace altogether. If your opponent can get to turn 5-6 where they can drop a Jace on you, chances you've lost already anyway.

Your tempo strategy seems to hinge on landing an early Batterskull. What other wincon do you have that early? But that won't be active until turn 3 under the best of conditions (since you have no mana acceleration), and one timely StP or artifact hate will end that chapter. Delver can be swinging at you for 6 or more by turn 3, along with burn. By turn 4-5, you're dead. Can your deck do that? When your chief removal card is giving the opponent life... I find it unlikely (that's my somewhat snarky way of saying I think PtE makes more sense for you than StP; but burn would be even better).

But, like I said, if it's working for you in your meta and you enjoy it, then do what works. I am certainly willing to be proven wrong. I suspect others will have difficulty in reproducing your success, but that's just my opinion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bignasty197

For those of you dismissing Stifle; test the list. There are some hands that you can just crush with Stifle/Wasteland. How many opening hands do opponents keep consisting of Dual, Fetch, Brainstorm, other stuff? Probably quite a lot. Stifle seems great in the mirror as well. It turns SFM into Squire and Snapcaster into a flashy Coral Merfolk. All I'm saying is test the list before you bash it.

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Will I keep an opening hand with a fetch, a dual and a brainstorm? In an unknown matchup, probably. But as I've said, once I know you have Stifle, I'm going to be more judicious about cracking my fetches instead of just going for a blind Brainstorm+fetch while you have blue mana open (unless I don't care so much about losing the fetch), and if my fetches are less reliable, I want to be relying on my duals even less.

But you have to tap it at some point, or else you're slowing your own game down, which is to my advantage. Meanwhile I also have manlands (I play 4 Mishra's) to put my own early pressure on you if needs be (I don't usually like swinging in with Mishra's as I want them more for defense and mana, but if I sense an opening and can afford the possible mana loss, I'll take a bite). Plus, I will have more real counters pre- and post-board than you do, to fend you off as well as protect my own guys from such antics.

All of this being said, RaNDoMxGeSTuReS may want to consider some mana acceleration (maybe in place of Jace?), since landing an early Batterskull is almost mandatory to win.

(*) The lack of cheap 1-2 drop threats makes me think that calling this a tempo strategy is inaccurate. Cheating out a Batterskull is a glorious thing, but what it is not is good tempo: it takes 3 turns minimum from casting SFM to untap with a Batterskull, during which you need to be able to protect the SFM, cheat out the skull, and then protect the germ, so you're limited in what you can bring out in those intervening turns, especially if you're trying to do all of this early on. Batterskull wins because he grinds well. Real tempo would have already landed 4-5 cheap beaters in that time (Delver has its namesake, plus Goyfs; Zoo has Goyf, Nacatl, Kird Ape, KotR for the 3-drop), smaller individually, perhaps (except for KotR after they get tapping), but capable of more damage to the head sooner. I think I'd call the list we're discussing aggro-control, but not really tempo. I don't want to argue semantics too much, but I don't think getting a threat out faster than the mainstream list necessarily makes it better tempo.