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Is the plan against Green Sun's Zenith decks (with access to Scavenging Ooze and/or Knight of the Reliquary) simply to try to go off really fast before their hate gets online? Those matchups seem a bit shaky without Firestorm, which can serve as another "slow" discard outlet (albeit not a repeatable one).Quote:
Originally Posted by 4eak
The earliest both Knight and Ooze get active in those decks is turn 3. We have a fundamental breakout turn 2 (with LED Dredge). On average, we simply race Scavenging Ooze. Sometimes you can buy time with hardcast Therapy. The games when they have the Surgical or Crypt to buy time are the games you usually lose, though. But in those games, Firestorm usually doesn't help you out either.Quote:
Originally Posted by lordofthepit
Firestorm just gets pushed out in LED lists. It's not needed as much because of the extra speed and it is pretty antisynergistic with LED as such as well.
This is a fallacy. Breakthrough more often than not does not win the game on it's own. Usually it wins the game in conjuction with LED, Pimp, or study.Quote:
Originally Posted by Izor
I have been playing three breakthroughs lately. It is the worst draw spell to have as multiples in your hand. Does almost nothing as your only draw & discard spell in hand. Isn't that great at filtering. Generally gets sided out games 2/3, and if we are already winning game one then why are all these breakthroughs so important?
It is the most explosive draw spell, but it is also the most situational draw spell to abuse. Study effects are always good even without dredgers in hand. Hand sculpting is awesome in Magic.
@4eak: I usually use chain of vapor as nature's claim 5 & 6, instead of the usual rays. They are easier to cast and good in other matchups.
Yeah, I race Maverick. Firestorm is good against it, no doubt. I don't have room for them. I think they are weaker than you imply as well. You only have at most 4 firestorm, and you have to open with it, 1 of 8-9 rainbow lands, and otherwise a keepable hand (much less than 40% chance). You won't be consistently seeing & using Firestorm. This isn't a reason not to play it against Maverick if you have it in the sideboard, but if your matchup was shaky before, Firestorm isn't going to consistently make it not shaky.Quote:
Is the plan against Green Sun's Zenith decks (with access to Scavenging Ooze and/or Knight of the Reliquary) simply to try to go off really fast before their hate gets online? Those matchups seem a bit shaky without Firestorm, which can serve as another "slow" discard outlet (albeit not a repeatable one).
Maverick with an e-tutor board is also a nightmare. Therapy does a lot of work against GSZ, but E-tutor is turn 1.
I'm just not a fan of Chain of Vapor. Against GY hate, if you can't Therapy or win on the same turn, it isn't a great option. Besides enchantment GY hate and the very rare prison deck, where you do you bring in CoV's?Quote:
@4eak: I usually use chain of vapor as nature's claim 5 & 6, instead of the usual rays. They are easier to cast and good in other matchups.
peace,
4eak
I suppose it isn't coincidence that I started cutting Pimps as well. I know people were already talking about doing so in the thread, but I didn't believe it till I started caring for him less and less. Even the Ichorid food argument doesn't really count anymore; the 8 studies goes far enough that we don't even need the dork (at least game 1). I was actually looking for more looting effects to replace the Pimp slot, but there really isn't much else. Tried Burning Inquiry - did not like.
I too have been sitting at 14 lands for a while. The more I add, the happier I am.
I just realized that this post doesn't really offer any significant insight lol. Just confirming that we're arriving at similar conclusions. Also, Izor is right about 4 Breakthroughs. This is the deck's ultimate knockout punch. Even if they're sided out games 2 and 3, the card allows you to race vs combo and ooze g1. It's irreplaceable.
Reanimator is the obvious.Quote:
Originally Posted by 4eak
I also like chain of vapor against Maverick. When you don't know if you will be battling an ooze, knight, or e. Tutor, chain becomes a good catch all. With Maverick it is easier to sculpt your hand and go off in one turn because of their lack of counter magic/discard.
If it helps the couple of above posts, I too when faithless looting was spoiled, was already looking at cutting putrid imp, because faithless looting draws & discards, while putrid imp only gives you discard, it is less ichorid food, but latley ichorid is looking like a 2 of anymore -vs- a 3 of before looting >^,^< I have toyed around with 2 things, either cut 4 putrid imp -or- cut 1 cabal therapy, 1 breakthrough, 1 tarnished citadel, & 1 dread return, and though i really like having 4 cabal therapy, i have settled for 3 to keep putrid imp for now based on the fact that out of the starcity open series dredge decks that performed and placed in the top 16, they all kept imp and cut 1 of this and that and etc.
Therapy is usually fine as a 3 of g1. If that's the plan though, the safe call is leaving the 4th in board-it's really tough for me personally to not have a playset of our best sac outlet/best spell somewhere in the 75.
Edit: Regarding chain vs a card like firestorm against maverick post board; if you've tested the matchup, you know that firestorm is miles ahead here in value, especially vs the fauna shaman versions seeing play at scg opens.
No, the earliest Ooze is active is turn 2, which is an enormous difference. Nevertheless, I agree, LED Dredge does typically race Maverick with Ooze. That, however, is because Maverick will not, on average, get a hand capable of stabilizing against us games 2 and 3 as often as we will get a hand that can beat them before they can do so. It has nothing to do with Ooze's power once it comes down; if Ooze resolves on turn 2 with a green open and, further, they are allowed to untap, then that spells imminent doom. Those games, while not frequent, are really quite decisive, and so I don't think Firestorm should be dismissed so easily. I'm very open to a statistical story about why Firestorm SB is not optimal (ie, it isn't relevant in enough matches to merit the SB slots), but I'm thoroughly convinced, sans such an argument, that it's good enough against a resolved Ooze to merit consideration.Quote:
Originally Posted by Izor
Izor is right about firestorm not meshing well with LED dredge.Quote:
Originally Posted by funyun45
Against Maverick, sitting around with one land untapped is a sure fire way to attract a wasteland(which really sucks for one land hands). Firestorm isn't quite as awesome when a MoM shows up either. And then you got to figure, what do I discard? LEDless usually can pitch some extra lands+goodies, but LED dredge will have to pitch LEDs/studies+goodies. What if you are waiting to firestorm the maverick opponent and he lands a wheel of sun and moon? There are only so many sideboard cards you should/could sideboard in before you dilute the deck. So do you really want to bring in 4 Nature's Claim and 4 Firestorm?
Look firestorm isn't a bad card against Maverick. It is just much easier(or perhaps better) to just win on turn 1 or 2 with some bounce back up.
It seems difficult to bring in 8 sideboard cards in a LED build, but I play non-LED Dredge and my plan against Maverick is exactly boarding in 4x Firestorm and 4x Chain of Vapor: I usually side out Breakthrough if I'm on the draw (don't wanna be nuked by Bojuka Bog) and Careful Study if I'm on the play to make room for Chains (as an answer to Scavenging Ooze/Knight of the Reliquary/Wheel of Sun and Moon), taking out 4x Tireless Tribe for 4x Firestorm. This way I still have almost the same number of discard outlets while I can deal with everything they can throw at me. I also play a singleton Darkblast in my maindeck, so I find myself pretty comfortable against Maverick, except when they stick that turn 2 Thalia =(Quote:
Originally Posted by joemauer
Well, I will admit that Ooze can get active on turn two if they have a mana accelerator turn 1, a third mana source and an actual Ooze in their hand turn two. Then they can exile one card from your graveyard, which might not even be enough against your potential big turn. It's when they untap and have at least three activations per turn that it literally eats you up and wins the game. And, of course, it's irrelevant if you went off earlier than their turn two anyway.
On the Breakthrough debate. Breakthrough is the single most powerful spell you can possibly have in a Dredge deck. Dredging twice as much as a Study effect, or just as much as a Study effect plus LED cracked in resp plus Flashback Looting. It can even be used as a discard outlet, and it's even a very fine one. If you resolve BT for X=1 on turn two, chances are the game is over on your next turn.
Breakthrough being twice as powerful as a draw effect than Study/Looting is much more often relevant than many people want to admit. I've had crucial turns where the Study plus LED just didn't Dredge into a Faithless Looting, or didn't find enough Narcomoebas or Bridges or anything else to take the game home right away. And my opponent Tendril'd, Nive Minded, High Tided, KotR'ed (Bojuka Bog'ed), Ooze'd or even just lucksacked me out during his next turn. Resolving a Breakthrough with Dredgers in your yard is certainly among the most powerful plays you can possible generate in this whole game. Stronger than turn 1 Tinker for Blightsteel Colossus. Stronger than Ad Nauseam with lots of mana floating. It's that strong. If I get to Therapy my opponent in the mirror, I name Breakthrough. If my opponent fears one card that might be in my hand after I discarded a Dredger, it's going to be Breakthrough. I hear everyone talk about the completely busted cast Looting, crack LED in response play. That's not the strongest play you have. Breakthrough instead of Looting is 50% stronger. If Breakthroug didn't exist and I was allowed to design a new card for this deck, it would probably be a draw spell that Dredges more than any other draw spell we have for one mana. And I would make it blue and make it a backup discard outlet.
Same here. I haven't really gone and cut the Putrid Imps altogether, but at this point they're also the first ones that I'd cut among the enablers available.Quote:
Originally Posted by badjuju
I also agree with Breakthrough being the best enabling play that we can possibly do. We may have gotten too used to the explosive power of resolving a Breakthrough with a dredger in play, and may have also taken that for granted because of the recent re-emergence of LED as the character-defining enabler for Dredge. I personally would want to maximize the probability of getting a Breakthrough in my opening hand as often as I can, so I would surely run the full set in situations where I don't expect any/much graveyard hate to be present (e.g. game 1, occasionally against other combo decks).
Kind Regards,
jares
Being new to dredge I am not certain when I should "go for it". With this I mean having 1 Stinkweed Imp in grave and some draw spell in hand, lets just say breakthrough.
What experience do you folks have with casting breakthrough in these situations and hoping for more dredgers to hit grave and keep dredging?
In this case, I would most definitely go for it! Of course, it would also depend on what the rest of my hand looks like, but assuming that all the other cards I have are blanks, going for it would surely be a good idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Artlee
It's worth noting that one of the major considerations I have for this response is that I try to fit in at least 12 Dredgers as often as I can, as I believe that "Dredge loses if it fails to Dredge" (at least most of the time). Given that the best Dredgers (Dredge 6, 5, and 4) are able to Dredge at an average of 5 cards at a time, and given that your opening hand will usually have 7 cards (and also assuming that you got your Dredger in the graveyard via some means, probably LED), you can expect to chain into at least one Dredger (in the 12-Dredger configuration) 70.36% of the time.
I hope that helps.
Cheers,
jares
There are too many factors that would have to be taken into account, so I can't give you a real answer. You just have to weigh the risk of fizzling against your possible rewards for going for it right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Artlee
Reasons to go for it:
- You play against Combo and don't know your opponent's hand or you know that they're almost ready to go off.
- You have only one land and don't want to get wastelanded.
- You know that your opponent doesn't have any countermagic right now (from Therapy), but you fear that they could draw into some next turn.
- You can cast it for X>=1, so even if you fizzle, you'll have another draw spell left in your hand for next turn.
Reasons not to go for it:
- You have multiple Dredgers in your hand and can't discard them right now
- The Dredger in your yard is a Thug
- You have something else to do this turn and you know you'll get the chance to cast your BT later anyway because you are under no pressure right now.
In general, I would usually go for it. I would certainly go for it if you don't have any other Dredger in your hand in the scenario your described. Also, this was all about BT as your draw effect. If it's something that just discards 2 or 3 instead of your whole hand (Coliseum, Looting, Study), you always go for it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jares
I agree this was kind of a vague example. I am trying to get the feel of the deck and wanted to hear from some more experienced folks. I have been hesitant as I am afraid to not hit another dredger.Quote:
Originally Posted by Izor
From now on I will try taking the jump more often and get my own feeling of how often it works or not.
Great and valuable info. Thanks Izor and Jares
I've been reading the last couple of pages and it seems the LED version is considered the strongest.
As of now i only own 2 LED's, and i've been of magic for some time, i have almost all the pieces for a Ledless list (i used to play before i took some time). Coming friday i will participate in a small tournament here in my town, so i would like to ask you guys how foes a good Ledless list looks like nowdays. Or, a LED list that only plays 2 LED's (which should not be that viable, but since it will be a small tournament, ou never know).
Also, i'm expecting to see the mirror, is playing 4 leylines (of the void) in the sideboard a reasonable choice)?
four leylines is great choice for the mirror also if you own 3 led's why would you only play 2?? as for an led less list play the led list but instead of one led use a tireless tribe or put in the last thugQuote:
Originally Posted by claudio.r
I really like this idea, I've been trying to cut Putrid Imp from this deck game 1 for awhile, but I always replaced it with some kind of functional equivalent. I never thought of just using my DDD strategy to replace Putrid Imp altogether and keep Cephalid Coliseum in the deck regardless to be a turn 3 draw spell. It could be well worth tinkering with.Quote:
Originally Posted by 4eak
Edit: That Putrid Imp seems kind of out of place, you may as well up the land count or soemthing to 11.
It kinda makes me wonder what we could effectively use the Putrid Imp slots for, a set of Darkblasts for an uncounterable, discarded Dredge is kind of appealing also because it doesn't set you back nearly as far if it's countered and picks off random targets.
Sorry, it was a typo, i only own 2 LED's...Quote:
Originally Posted by Rekk
You may want to play around with this LEDless list for reference (even if it might be a bit unconventional in subtle ways).Quote:
Originally Posted by claudio.r
I hope that helps. :smile:
Cheers,
jares
I also feel that, even if Putrid Imp has generally been underwhelming in its contributions to the current versions of the deck, we should still try to replace it with something that's functionally equivalent. LED lists may have that added luxury because LED by itself is also a discard outlet, and also because of the reduced dependence on Ichorid, and thus, on black creatures. I like the Darkblast idea, though my initial thought about that is that it's not as reliable as a turn-1 Putrid Imp or even a DDD (and may arguably just be as reliable as, say, a Burning Inquiry).Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
I hope that they print another Careful Study soon. :tongue:
Cheers,
jares
I dig your list, but i think it's a little too unconventional for me. I always played a minimum of 3 Ichorids, so its a little bit strange to see a list with no ichorids. Have you felt the need of ichorid while playiong that list? Or did you felt it's not needed?Quote:
Originally Posted by jares
Just play this:
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel
2 LED
4 Putrid Imp
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Bridge From Below
4 Narcomoeba
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Dread Return
If you want the 15th Land, cut the DR. If you want a DR package, add a DR target, 1 DR and cut a Putrid Imp and something else.
I was reading Ando Ferguson's tournament report, and I saw he played flayer of the hatebound. Is there a reason no one in here is using it?
Oh, you might have overlooked the Ichorids, as I run the full set in the main deck! :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by claudio.r
The list I run is actually VERY dependent on Ichorids, even during game 1. The most current LEDless list that I run forgoes the use of Dread Return, but in the list I showed you, the DRs are there for specific match-ups where the DR targets would be most needed. I would surely help you to play around with the lists that run Tireless Tribe too, and there are even others that use Firestorm in the main deck (which has been much less effective in LED lists, even from the sideboard). Also, the meta that you'll be playing against will be a major consideration, especially since it won't be a very diverse meta (if I understood correctly).
Kind Regards,
jares
Actually, many of the players here have already been using Flayer of the Hatebound. You'll have to do some back-reading to find the references to the lists that use the card as the combo-finisher. The main discussion-point about that list is the use of three Dread Returns in the main deck to increase the likelihood of pulling-off the combo-finish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Artlee
Cheers,
jares
I will test a list very close to this one, i'm not convinced that 2 LEDs will be enough, buit nothing like testing to see.Quote:
Originally Posted by Izor
@Jares sorry about that, i overlooked the Ichorids :tongue:
The only annoying thing is that you need 4! slots to play that Flayer-package, which is many players too much. Flayer is really strong IMO, but the problem for those people not running him is not the creature itself, it's the 3 needed DRs. It's no problem to get that 4 slots if you cut the PImps. My curent Flayer-list looks like that:Quote:
Originally Posted by Artlee
//Dredgers
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
//Graveyard Goodies
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
//other stuff
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
//Lands
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
2 Tarnished Citadel
Discussions about the number of DRs necessary in a build always remind me of the "Spanish Lists" that use only 1 Dread Return in the entire 75-card list, as I've found that configuration to be very interesting. I look at it as a means of saving as much space as possible, somewhat like penny-pinching on the number of slots required for a DR package. :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroYawgmoth
In comparison, the "Flayer Package" requires 3 DRs! That's quite a difference in the "cost" of these investments. Maybe we can go with a "Spanish Flayer Package" running only 2 DRs. :tongue:
Cheers,
jares
I think the idea of running only 2 DRs in a Flayer list has been discussed to death already haha. We've tried it, and it just doesn't feel comfortable.Quote:
Originally Posted by jares
The problem is, that you need the 2 DRs in the turn you want to kill the opponent. [The first for the Flayer, and the 2nd for the GGT], this doesn't happen very often when you play 2 because you need both :rolleyes:. With only 2DRs I'd play Angel over Flayer [or alternatively 0 targets with Ichorid & Thug nr.4].Quote:
Originally Posted by jares
Yeah, I guess so, as I also have that "uncomfortable feeling", the same one I get when running only 1 Dread Return while having a DR target buried somewhere in the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by badjuju
Cheers,
jares
@Necro
How has cutting Pimps entirely been for you? I have a feeling that you probably don't miss him :P
I board him out nearly everytime anyways, so my only problem now is it to find other cards to board out =PQuote:
Originally Posted by badjuju
I like him, and for some reason I think he will be needed as a 4-off in ~2 month, because people are starting to play Crypts again. Still, as long as I don't get overwhelmed by these things, I'm not going to play him. =P
Hey y'all. I've been playing around with the idea of using 2 Deadly Allure in the SB as a Firestorm substitute against ooze. It doesn't dilute your deck as much and its not as dependent on your opening hand. The sorcery speed kinda sucks though.
Also, Last week I top 4'd at a local tourney with the Fearless Feldman list. I played a mirror against a Flayer build and he just couldn't seem to go off. It seems very inconsistent. I'll concede that discard dorks make you a turn slower, but I seem to have very few consistency issues with the old LEDless build. Is it really worth it to invest in the LED's?
It makes the deck twice as expensive and maybe 5% better. So I guess in that sense the answer is No? I don't know. If you're interested in the most optimal build, I'd try to get LEDs, though. Not that it's always the strictly better build, but sometimes it's better to run them.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZebraSleeves
deadly Allure is really really bad, sorry. Run Firestorm or nothing and just race them.
I played a small local tournament this weekend with LEDless (pretty standard, 15 lands, 12 dredgers, 2 DR, 3 Ichorid, Faithless over TTribes) and I've found the increased speed offered by LED is really, really important.
I lost the mirror miserably, and lost to Maverick due to the lack of speed.
Maverick can come with almost any kind of hate, and sometimes the best thing you can do is just ignore them and race for the win.
Also, I won against Reanimator due to the lack of skill from my opponent, otherwise I would've be crushed.
Really guys, unless everybody returns to play artifact-form hate, I don't think LEDless will ever be as good as LED Dredge.
I believe cutting Putrid Imp is a mistake. It is the really the only permanent-controlled discard effect you have in all three potential games, which in turn makes permanent-based hate strategies less effective against you. Running Tribe and Imp is probably overkill in LED Dredge, but I firmly believe cutting Putrid Imp all together is not the optimal strategy. The card is too multifaceted to cut.
I never board them out game's two and three, ever.