@l@mbert101
Do you think you can get any use out of Zuran Orb? I have never had enough lands in play for such things. 12 post can ramp enough for such things but it doesn't look workable in Pox.
Btw, Dark Heart of the wood may be better.
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@l@mbert101
Do you think you can get any use out of Zuran Orb? I have never had enough lands in play for such things. 12 post can ramp enough for such things but it doesn't look workable in Pox.
Btw, Dark Heart of the wood may be better.
Sideboard. Talk about this was requested a few pages back and I would be happy to start one. Of course, it matter what pox you run, but we could start with Carsten Kötter's new article on the current Meta. http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/s...iumvirate.html
So, stifle/daze tempo decks, DRS mid range and cantrip combo. A sideboard need also cover the Meta response to these decks. Like those listed by Carsten.
Smallpox wreaks havoc with the first two types of decks. Discard is good vs. the third.
The question is if there is need to improve any of these matchup by taking up slots for sideboard cards. Alternatively one can focus to fight the coming Meta evolution.
For my part three-four perish is enough to fight the tempo and DRS decks.
This leave me like 11 slots to fight combo.
(and possibly Counterbalance.)
A Thalia style hate is possible with thorn of Amethyst.. I have not had much success with Duress in sideboard. Four spot discard is not enough to get the job done.
Phyrexian revoker then?
How would a sb like this one be?
3 Perish (best sideboard card)
4 phyrexian revoker
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Surgical Extraction
I am not much pleased with revoker either. Needle would be better in a pox deck.
Would be nice to find room for Stromgald cabal
I like to have sets of card to board out, and in. Darkblasts, Tombstalker and pox are cards that get replaced most often. Since they come in sets of three the following Sb is handy:
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Stromgald Cabal
3 Perish
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Thorn of Amethyst
Because I run a semi 52 card deck having three of each sideboard card is not bad.
Running four would be stronger, but then I would be less consistent when replacing cards. Also, if I feel the need for more reinforcements from the sb, then it's a small thing bring in two three card sets.
How dare you say a turn-1 walker that gives us infinite card advantage and 'perfect' top decking isn't worth it :eek:. Those small percentages mentioned are actually better than 0%. The benefits to that 5% are preposterously large. Pox really has nothing it can do turn 1 to a blisteringly fast draw. There is no 1 mana drop that will save you from a fast Empty the Warrens. 2 mana is for Nausea [lol]. Dark rit to Engineered Plague, Infest, Liliana, Inq + Hymn, etc. Well, I'm talking from fast aggro meta experience. If you're in a slow slow control-y meta, then ok, I'd leave Dark Ritual at home. My environment demands speed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
"What if you top deck Dark Ritual? Great job wasting your draw..."
"Dark Ritual, naming 'other card in my hand', kill that lord or take two to your dome? Activating Cursed Scroll :tongue:"
Make dark rit useful late game by running a few cards that feed off its mana. It's the principle behind the "Giant Growth" aspect of Nantuko Shade from old-school Sui-Black.
Scroll and Phyrexian Totem come to mind, though Totem is much worse in a heavy creature meta, Cursed Scroll makes any low cmc/toughness creature deck cry bloody tears. (outside da Goyf)
If fighting a slower deck, I sideboard out the Dark Ritual for less card disadvantage using sideboard hate. I think it's extremely difficult to function without dark ritual. Also, the 3 for 3 that is Dark Rit + Inquisiton + Hymn is a very very strong start vs. any deck type outside GY decks. You are losing 3 cards, they are losing 3 relevant cards they desperately need to play (unless they kept a shit hand on purpose to 'dodge' your discard lol). Nothing screwed my foe over more than killing their 1cmc drop and 2 starting lands on the play, and when it does, the psychological shock is almost insurmountable.
No. There are a select few assholes on the internet that play pox, feel free to join our club any time.Quote:
Originally Posted by StefN
Vindicate, Lingering souls, and StPQuote:
Originally Posted by StefN
There is only so much you can disrupt a guy until he cascades or out-draws you into a win, unless you can bounce back. You need more card advantage than the dark ritual, quick liliana mono-black version. Lingering souls is the card.
Might as well run vindicate and Stp. The deck always lost to a good permanent, Jace et al. Vindicate will fix that plus double as sinkhole numbers 5,6, and 7.
Monoblack can't beat the grindy midrange decks as they are currently being built, and I don't know of a way around that other than going white.
Actually, I'd like to hear the explanation on this.Quote:
Originally Posted by mysteriofuentez
Giving them health with STP when the deck's namesake cuts your own life down isn't my idea of good synergy. Vindicate sounds awesome though but makes you weaker to Wastelands from an opposing deck. I've experimented with the old "Vaka Pox B/W" and Loam Pox and both run into the same problem. Color consistency and expendability. I find it easier to pick what to discard to Smallpox using Mono-B then color splashed Pox.
While it's true that MonoBlack is more consistent it runs in some problems against tempo/midranged oriented decks in the (at least my) current meta. Todays decks can drop a bomb (Delver, Shaman, Goyf to name a few) too fast, without us even getting started. Discard does not always do the trick. Brainstorm, Ponder et al makes it easier for opponents to react and possibly save their best cards or dig for a new threat. We just play with what we topdeck. LD is much too weak, as some have advocated in the past, and I must agree: playing Sinkhole (while one of my favorite plays) on a basic just won't do the trick. The curve has dropped drastically and it is possible to play a game on three, even two lands. We, the Pox-player, on the other hand must hit multiples. This also means having more land, which could result in drawing too many lands. Also getting an artifact against you can really really ruin your day, especially when staying true to MonoBlack. Even with some sweeper in the board it could be too slow. In my opinion, the main problem is the fact that we are reactive, and therefor too slow.
Splashing colors opens you up to Wasteland, but it gives you so much more options (Decay, Pulse or StP and Vindicate already being mentioned). I liked to splash Green, but was too eager to throw Nether Void on the pile. Maybe I should stick to splashing for Decay, Deed, LotL and Pulse. I never tried white or red. Perhaps we should get beserk and try blue? I don't really know how to make Pox any stronger/ proactive in a super fast way :smile: :rolleyes:
I gave up a little while ago after being slaughtered for the third time at the monthly tournament at my LGS: it just felt too slow, topdecked horrible and couldn't do anything/ too little against those pesky midranged decks. Worst was when I finally had some softlock, I lacked drawing any kill condition. It was really shitty indeed... Still, I'm tinkering on paper, but just for now dropped Pox and went back to old school Gobbos again (maybe not the best choice, but right now a lot more fun to play).
I ran my UB Pox today. Gitaxian probe worked well, but Shadow of doubt was too clunky to be a main deck card.
I used it with success vs a GW deck, but in general the mana cost is too much to pay
in early game vs decks like young pyromancer.
Will you post your current UB list? I've been messing around with a blue splash as well. I've been considering Brainstorm, Spell Pierce (or other counterspell, something to battle topdecked threats ... perhaps Mana Leak?), Lim-Dul's Vault, Notion Thief in the 'board, and Ancestral Visions. This is for a Rack/discard build, perhaps a blue splash for a LD build might make some use of taxing counters. I'm guessing blue splash is not usually discussed because most of the cards are not synergistic with non-budget Pox cards like Chains and Void.
It is hard to splash blue in the traditional manner. A card like Gitaxian probe just "happen" to be blue. In function it is more like a Mishra's bauble, something which "Day of Disease" ran, but is better.
The current list is almost identical to the one posted earlier but with Probes replacing Shadow of Doubt.
3 Tombstalker
4 Nihilith
4 Bloodghast
4 Order of the Ebon Hand
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Smallpox
3 Pox
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Darkblast
4 The Rack
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
19 Swamp
2 Dakmor Salvage
My list included three SDT yesterday, but I will cut that to two. Excessive use of the top can actually be a problem!
Long term plan is to replaced them with proper card draw.
BoB would work well with Dredge, but I can't afford him yet.
The order have its uses. First strike and protection from white. Would have been helpfull vs the Shardless and Young Pyromancer decks.
Note: Shadow of Doubt is not a bad card, but may be better in a traditional pox deck.
Cabal Therapy + Probe? ^_^ Good times. The Shadow is devastating vs. Tutor and Fetchlands, so I'd sideboard it if my meta had more 3 color decks and combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
I've had a lot of success splashing green and playing with mox diamonds and sylvan libraries. A common error that I've seen is GB pox decks relying too much on life from the loam. You really only want to be running 1-2 loams, and not relying on your graveyard. I know this seems counter-intuitive since you are after all splashing green, but the small splash gives you exactly what you need: better removal (abrupt decay), speed (mox diamond) better top decks (sylvan library). While the loam engine can be quite powerful, it makes the deck less balanced and too graveyard reliant. When I played loam pox, I found the hate in games 2-3 too strong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatto
I’ve been playing roughly this list to some success for a little while now.
1 Cursed Scroll
2 Nether Void
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Sylvan Library
4 Thoughtseize
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Mox Diamond
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra’s Factory
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Bayou
4 Swamp
Sideboard
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Drop of Honey
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Pithing Needle
4 Extirpate
I’ve come to feel that there’s no going back with regard to the green splash. Abrupt Decay and especially Sylvan Library give the mono-black deck exactly what it’s missing: answers to non-creature permanents and library manipulation. Sylvan lets you float answers on top of your library while using Liliana’s +1 with impunity. At the same time, it’s far more powerful in the early game than Sensei’s Divining Top, and dropping it turn one off of a Mox Diamond will often win the game outright.
I think the biggest misconception about B/G Pox is Life From The Loam. To me it’s fool’s gold, and really doesn’t belong in the deck.
Agreed, and better yet: I almost never used the Loam-enginge, which was quiet weird in a sense. I eventually dropped LotL completely, because it never really got the engine going at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by plutajp
Again agreed, but I never used Sylvan Library, but Top for it (in my opinion) went better with Deed. I even tried DRS, and it worked, at least a little bit, but it wasn't exactly great either.Quote:
Originally Posted by plutajp
Especially in the current meta where RiP and DRS are everywhere...Quote:
Originally Posted by plutajp
I was suspecting this would happen. Original Mono-B Pox didn't use it's GY really and Loam Pox is like The Rock with Smallpox thrown in. It's not a 'true' use of Loam, which is waste lock, fetch land, and then tons of 'spell lands' and manlands to keep bombarding your opponent. DRS is a creature that can die. RiP in a B/G deck should easily be handled by Abrupt Decay, but I've found the strength in 'classic' Pox to be that it doesn't put all its eggs in one basket so to speak.
What I'm wondering is if you guys have found any strong lock pieces for Pox. Since we're a top-deck based deck, I've decided to almost carbon copy Reid Duke's idea of simply having STRONG permanents on the field after both players are hand empty and then ride that wave by having superior board presence.
Note, Sylvan Library and Sensei's Top are not superior board presence. Cursed Scroll + Liliana is. The idea is after Pox has done its thing, and the enemy doesn't have 3+ beaters for you, what do you do to ensure his top decks are just dead? The old Nether Void is quite nuts, and thankfully though pricey, you'd really only want one. Trinisphere works if your went hard on the land destruction route or makes your foe cry very hard off a Turn 1 Dark rit. Painful Quandry caught my eye as something to consider as a 1 of. I've had plenty of games where I ultimately lead to my 6th land. Tainted Aether from the board is quite nasty if played after the enemy's creatures are wiped out.
Are there any other lock out permanents Pox can run to practically auto-win games? Since I run Dark Rits, I'm crazy enough to consider spells up to 6 cmc, but like I asked, it should practically guaruntee a win on an empty board state.
Painful Quandary...that just sounds like it would be very bad news for a foe before I even looked it up to see what it did. Between the Pox effects and self discard I find it hard to cast anything more than 3 reliably so 5cc is pretty questionable, though I do find with a Top I can hide some important cards until I cast them. I guess Nether Void is the best lock but it puts a tough mana requirement on us too. But I do agree there needs to be some means of taking advantage of Sinkhole and LD rather than just let them get enough lands to play some cheap spells. Either something more tempo like Tainted Aether or Bitterblossom to take advantage of getting a bit ahead while they are temporarily short on lands or a color, since it is difficult to keep them off lands completely, or just crunching in more of the ol' Nether Void, Trinisphere, Sphere of Resistance kind of thing, keeping in mind that thier spells are just as cheap or cheaper and besides 4 meager Sinkholes every land they sacrifice we sac one too, so it is hard to get ahead or lock with that. The Painful Quandary of using LD. That is some of the attraction of Crucible and Loam, though I do find it best not to be too GY reliant.
Personally, I've never had difficulty closing out the game once I've stabilized. Liliana + any other lock piece usually does the trick, so I try to focus on cards that translate a slight advantage into an endgame (i.e. Nether Void).Quote:
Originally Posted by OmniStrata
Going to have to disagree there. Sylvan Library and Top take us out of topdeck-mode and allow us to save situational cards on top of our library for when they're needed (typically Smallpox and Abrupt Decay). Given its synergy with Liliana, as well as Crucible (with a fetch in the 'yard), and it's early-game power (something lacking in SDT), I regard Sylvan Library as possibly the best card in the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by OmniStrata
Decks with better card advantage than you are very resilient to our attacks. Play the deck against the field. It's not going to win against a lot of the decks. I found that lingering souls fixes the problem. Vindicate is amazing. Swords is debatable. I haven't had any problems with their lifegain, when I'm winning they are on empty and stay on empty. You must grind them out and you win. It's not a race from 20 to 0 it's a race to fuck them over. Can I fuck them over ASAP? Good, I'm winning.Quote:
Originally Posted by OmniStrata
Mishra's Factory, Cursed Scroll, Liliana and Nether Void. Just love to give my opponent cards which can't be cast and then let them discard cards... and kill them ever so slowly with Factories/ Cursed Scroll :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by OmniStrata
I don't fully agree, but I think I understand where you are going: they are no wincons. Yet they get you better cards from the top, getting those wincons faster. It also gives you more reach to get a answer to whatever your opponent throws at you (something Dolphy already stated). I do agree on winning with 'combo' Scroll and Lilly: together they are awesome. Won a lot of games with those two cards on the field :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by OmniStrata
Can't help you there, I'm still looking myself, but I don't think I would go for something like 6 cmc. As far as I know only Nic Fit can pull that off.Quote:
Originally Posted by OmniStrata
With Thoughtseize getting a reprint in Theros I am considering running it in my deck (assuming the prices go down). At the very least it should be a better sideboard discard than Duress.
Difficulty to say. Some cards are autowin vs some decks but does nothing against others. You can divide the lock pieces of Pox in two types:Quote:
Originally Posted by OmniStrata
General scope: (MD strategy)
-Nether Void
-Trinisphere (actual meta)
Specific scope (usually on SB)
-Contamination
-Tainted Aether
-The Abyss
-Braids, Cabal Minion
-Chains of Mephistopheles
-Lethal Vapors
-Word of Waste
My personal best are:
-trinisphere
-chains of mephistopheles
Dark Heart of the wood its not a viable choice, basically because of two things (explain later)Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
1) It cost you two manas
2) Works only with Forests
Zuran Orb is here mostly for the Mono Red and UR Delvers builds that packs a lot of burn spells and can drop your life total from 20 to 0 on a few turns.On these matchups you need to get rid of their T1 creatures (like delver and guide) and maintain a secure life total to avoid a big Price of Progress until you can manage to land a trinisphere or stabilize and control both board and hand. Zuran Orb works great here: Your 0 mana cost allow it to be played together with an innocent blood,smallpox or hymn, and trust me, getting rid of an flipped delver or guide in the same turn you drop Zuran Orb its nearly a Time Walk against these decks (explain reason 1).
Also, it can hit any land, not only Forests, interacting well with Life from the Loam/Crucible and helping avoiding a sneaky price of progress that can insta kill you.(that explain 2). I love to use Zuran Orb with factory, block a big creature and sac for additional 2 life.
Of course Zuran Orb are only present in the SB of Loam Pox builds and Monoblacks builds that run Crucible. Without that cards it lost a lot of power and is better replaced with Spinning Darkness.
Zuran Orb is cute, but rather superfluous most of the time. Unlike (43) Lands, we have no way to recur it if it is destroyed or countered, and no way to tutor for it. You would likely never see it when you needed it, and you would rarely be able to assemble the Orb + Loam/Crucible engine. Besides, it's really only useful against Burn, and that match-up is basically unwinnable. Why waste maindeck or sideboard slots on trying to shore up weaknesses against what is essentially a rogue deck?
Nether Void is our card against Burn; Spinning Darkness helps and isn't a brick in other match-ups, although I have reservations about running it in a B/G list.
Here's hoping the price does go down :cool:. However, I wouldn't run it in Pox. My Rock deck would like it but paying life with 3 Pox in my deck was something I experimented with and failed horribly. The lifeloss in Smallpox is more bearable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
Saying it's better than Duress is a stretch. Thoughtseize is Duress with 2 life payment to hit creatures. If we have problems with creatures, discard shouldn't be our route.
CHAINS! Ah if only there was a budget replacement for it. Lethal Vapors... LoL :laugh: I'm reminded of Pillar Tombs of Aku. I'd run more goofy like Koskun Falls if I had more creatures.Quote:
Originally Posted by lukazlml
since someone brought up painful quandary, a possibly powerful lockpiece, albeit on the fringe in the pox archtype..may i suggest desolation? i concede it would require a lot of tweaking and would be anti-synergistic with one of best our win-cons(cursed scroll), but it would totally wreck the opponents mana base, especially decks that run brainstorms, ponders, etc..i feel bloodghast would shine in such a build..maybe with a little help from dakmor salvage, crucible of worlds, etc.
i apologize if this may seem a lousy idea..
I ran Desolation main decked a long time ago using Phyrexian Totem as a mana supplement to keep me afloat and keep playing. One of my friends mentioned a joke regarding Winter Orb so I stuck that in alongside and then the deck started to feel like stasis. Crucible of Worlds helps a ton. Artifact mana sources will hurt if your enemy plays them but it worked well vs. decks that needed to tap lands. Just have to increase your creature kill spells to stop the little ones that get through.Quote:
Originally Posted by zenitramleirdag
You know, that's a pretty interesting idea. I do run two Crucibles and I have been wondering how to get more milage out of Sinkhole.Quote:
Originally Posted by zenitramleirdag
i tried it before using mox diamonds, dakmor salvages and crucible of worlds and it seemed to have worked well, but i need to playtest it more because i only tried it against a handful of decks..it hurts decks that uses top, cantrips, etc..
i had to change my threat suit though because it becomes painful to use ones that require an activation cost(cursed scroll)..instead i had to rely on recurring threats(bloodghast)..
with a trinisphere in play, it becomes a lock that is very hard to get out from..
I tried Desolation once and found it is necessary to put pressure on your opponent. Otherwise they will just sit and play land after land, negating the purpose of it all. Recursion is one way to do it, but it suffer from graveyard hate game two and three.
Black vise would have been a perfect compliment.
@hardcore
if you're not running liliana and hymn..then yes, black vise might be good with it..assuming its legal..
Thoughtseize is worlds better than Duress. The 2 life is a small price to pay to practically guarantee your spell will never miss. We need 1-mana discard maindeck to be able to survive in a format with TES, Show and Tell, etc. At the same time, the ability to hit creatures minimizes our dead draws game 1. (Try running Duress against Goblins.) While discard isn't the best way to combat creatures, it still helps, and we can't afford to run stuff like Innocent Blood maindeck, where it's a dead draw against non-creature decks. Besides, Thoughtseize can hit any creature, whereas allowing them to hit the table means having to diversify our answers (Abrupt Decay can't hit Geist of Saint Traft, Cursed Scroll can't hit Tarmogoyf, and Smallpox can't hit any fatty once your opponent pads out their board). Inquisition of Kozilek is similarly unplayable because it can't hit Jace, the Mind Sculptor or Batterskull.Quote:
Originally Posted by OmniStrata
Additionally, the life loss is really irrelevant; success hinges on stabilizing (read: immobilizing the opponent). If you think the 2 life off of Thoughtseize is bad, you should try playing Sylvan Library. I frequently find myself under 8 life before my opponent lands a threat (and I usually win those games).
+1
Karsten Kötters latest article discussed the concept of WYW; knowing what makes you win.
I asked a friend to make a quick analysis of my deck because I found hard to do that myself. He concluded it was a resource denial deck, which was no surprise actually, but his comparison to Delver decks was.
I don't know what meta you're playing in, but Innocent Blood should never be dead. You're in a combo non-creature meta? I didn't think those existed, with Nimble Mongoose slapping my face everywhere I go. There's no way in hell a Pox deck should be without at least 2-3 Innocent Bloods until after sideboard. It's most known weaknesses are aggro and GY decks. They simply sac their weakest creature. Spamming more sacrifice spells is better than discard. Top deck a discard, if their hand is empty, you're dead. Top deck Innocent Blood, they don't have a creature to kill, you're winning most likely... :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by D0LPHY
My meta has a lot of creatures and bolts electrocuting people and Thoughtseize works better in a deck without life loss effects. Pox without Innocent Blood feels as bad as Threshold without Nimble Mongoose. You just don't do it. Llanowar Elf, Goblin Lackey, and DRS decks can't get enough Innocent Blood. Inquisition can beat Goblins and losing 2 life to Thoughtseize will get you killed vs. fast aggro. I've lived and died off of 2 life differences too often to say it's irrelevant, being both a Pox and threshold pilot
I totally agree with you. I've tested thoughtseize over IoK and even a split 2/2 and the 2 life loss is, without a doubt, HUGE. if you add this with fetchlands life loss(BG lists or just to filter the deck) and smallpox you are hitting yourself for at least 5 damage, 25% of your life. This percentage cannot be ignored in legacy. Stabilizng with 5 life against burn decks and even agroo decks its not "stabilize" in fact, since you can get in reach of a lot of 1cc threats. Why bother with Jace and Batterskull If you can deal with their hands via Hymn to Tourach and lower their lands with Sinkholes, Wastelands and Smallpox. I've played against UWR, Stoneblades a lot and most of the times, when they need to choose what to discard (via liliana or smallpox) they choose exactly these threats (Jace, Batterskull), since their don't have enough mana to cast it or don't have an active Stoneforge to put it on play..Quote:
Originally Posted by OmniStrata
Regarding Innocent Blood, for me ther is no discussion. IB is a must in a Pox deck. Its a 1cc removal for all the creatures in the actual metagame. A t1 innocent blood is huge against DRS, Lackey, Heritage, Delver. If you can keep the creatures count on the opp table in a small number ( wich is easy via smallpox, discards, land destruction,liliana, cursed scroll) your draw in IB will never be in vain. Of course, in a heavy combo meta you just swapped them for better hate in the SB.
When I moved to BG Pox build first I replaced 4 IB with 3 Abrupt, but i've missed so much IB that I have to found place for 2 in the MD. (Now I'm running 3 AD / 2 IB)
i agree..
about the only time they failed me was when i got beat down to death by an opponent who only has 2 lands in play(an island an a mutavault) while i was staring at the three copies of innocent bloods in hand :frown: but i think i was just unlucky because i've neither drawn into any sinkholes or smallpoxes to kill it nor did i see any mishra's factories' to block them..
i've sometimes tried replacing a couple innocent bloods with smothers and diabolic edicts but with all your "poxing" (especially if you're running BIG POX) and all the taxing counters(daze, spell pierce) running around; the one mana difference really makes a huge difference..
i've seen other mono-black lists that ran only 2 but personally i wouldn't go below 3..i used to run 4 but i replaced one of them with spinning darkness and its been serving me very well so far..
the only time i would run less than three is when i'm running tombstalkers, because i've found myself in awkward situation in the past where they got stuck in my hand because i have the demon in play..if i were to run tombstalker again, i would probably go between a 2-2 split between innocent blood and smother..and remove the spinning darkness maindeck because of its anti-synergy with the stalkers..
i can see why the B/g version can afford to run only 2 copies of it since it has access to abrupt decay..but in mono black, i feel 3 is the right number(i'm currently not running tombstalker)..
I like to use 1 Thoughtseize in addition to the 4 Inquisition when I can fit it in, but I wouldn't go for more than 2 of them even if you were to repace an Inquisition for another one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OmniStrata
I should have clarified. Innocent Blood is a fantastic card, and a cornerstone of mono-black Pox, but it has always been a brick against combo, and its one-sidedness is symptomatic of mono-black Pox's problems in general. I'm not arguing that Thoughtseize should take the place of Innocent Blood, but rather should take the place of Duress, since being able to hit creatures with discard (especially enablers like Deathrite Shaman, Goblin Lackey, Stoneforge Mystic, etc.) reduces the need for cards like Innocent Blood. Once you splash green, Abrupt Decay rapidly outclasses Innocent Blood; it's much more versatile, and is even less likely to be a 'dead draw'. Dividing your removal suite between targeted removal and 'edict' effects, combined with library manipulation, allows you to have the "right" removal for each situation ('edicts' against shroud creatures; Decay against one big creature surrounded by little ones). With regard to Thoughtseize being a dead draw late-game, that is simply the nature of discard. It's unfortunate, but we need 1cc discard to combat combo. Also, Inquisition of Kozilek is weak not merely because of Jace and Batterskull (those are merely the most glaring examples). It also can't grab Tendrils of Agony, Ad Nauseam, Dream Halls, Omniscience, Enter the Infinite, Empty the Warrens, Time Spiral, Bloodbraid Elf, Goblin Ringleader, Siege-Gang Commander, Natural Order, or Sneak Attack (a big problem for us), among other bombs.Quote:
Originally Posted by lukazlml
Of course, these considerations are meta-game dependent, and if your meta-game favours creatures, run Innocent Blood. For reference, the following decks make Innocent Blood a dead draw: Omni-tell, A.N.T., T.E.S., High Tide, Belcher, Dredge (usually), U/W Miracles (usually), Pox (!), and Lands, not to mention anyone who resolves Lingering Souls. I'd be loathe to run Innocent Blood or cards like it maindeck unless absolutely necessary given the prevalence of the first two decks in today's metagame. Besides, against Tribal- and Aggro-heavy metas, why not run Ensnaring Bridge or Infest? 4 Smallpox and 4 Liliana are enough sac-effects.
It's been a while since I checked in. Thanks for the feed back guys, much appreciated! :smile:
As for the discussion here, have you guys tried main decking Darkblast + Infest in addition to Innocent Blood (mono B lists)? It seems to help out a lot, especially with all these quasi Esper/Deathblade lists. I've had some success, but obviously luck plays in the top deck game, so I can't say for sure without someone else to help test with me. Here's the updated list since I last asked for some revision help:
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Nether Spirit
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Cursed Scroll
4 Dark Ritual
1 Darkblast
1 Entomb
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Infest
3 Innocent Blood
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal (Deals with Soul Tokens, Snapcasters, Bobs, Cliques, Pyromancers, etc G1)
1 Raven's Crime
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
1 The Rack
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dakmor Salvage
4 Mishra's Factory
11 Swamp
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 1 Dystopia
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Perish
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Zuran Orb
SB: 1 Ratchet Bomb
As for Thougthseize vs. IoK, it really comes down to whether or not you're expecting to see bolts or direct damage options across the other table. I don't have problems against UWR Miracles and other similar control/combo lists, but against RUG, I'd rather stick with IoK.