[Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

It's not even an issue of inconsistency, it's an issue of tempo advantage. The deck is honestly much more consistent than most control decks, it's just got the issue where it's power lies mostly on it's own turn, and a lot of decks benefit from that.

Game vs Goblins is still pretty good, especially post board. Only the white splash can really do much, as the green splash is more commonly for Tin Street Hooligan.

Thresh is a total annoyance, but we have answers to their threats, we just need to get a good balance for it. Once we establish enough to get around their problematic creatures, we should be able to overcome this deck.

IGGY/Solidarity both have to outrace our land hate and hand disruption. Both decks can just topdeck for a win, but with 24 sources of "hate" for combo decks (re:the "Disruption" in my list + Hyppie), we have a good chance of at least putting the favor back on us. Plus, we can always look into SB slots if either deck pick up enough play.

All in all, the game is a metagame deck. We should be able to adjust it to make it more capable of at least improving it's matches against the DTB's, or at least improving it's matches against everything else. We're still working over the list, there's still plenty of choices on what to run. We just need to actually concentrate more on it, and not give up.

Quicksand.

In the place of wasteland (or something), could quicksand be the answer to goblins we've been looking for? And let us keep our lands for small pox?

On the goblins note, I tried it our last night. I played 6 games (all pre-board), won 3 games and lost 3 games. I think that that's excellent, as it only gets better from there post board. Scroll was big, as was small poxing thier first turn lackey and mtn. I played with 2 grunts in MB, and they lasted 5 and 4 turns the games I got them out. I also won one game due to a single tomb of uruami.

Here's the list I'm tinkering with:

Lands (24)
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scrubland
5 Swamp
4 Wasteland
3 Quicksand

Creatures (10)
4 Dark Confidant
3 Nantuko Shade
3 Jotun Grunt

Spells (26)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
2 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares

I went with a lower threat density and more control. I run a total of 24 lands to accomodate the Smallpoxes but I put in 3 Quicksand to add as additional creature removal. The full 8 fetchlands help support Jotun Grunt. The lower threat density helps make Smallpox more asymetrical. Grunt is a house but I felt that 3 should be enough... even with Smallpox, multiples are probably gonna be dead. The same applies to Shade in the sense that multiples are usually less effective, so I also went with 3 of those.

I went with Duress instead of Funeral Charm because I felt the deck has enough removal, though this can always be changed. Smallpox is pretty amazing with the amount of discard and LD this deck has. StP is just too good not to run. I run only 2 Vindicate because the 3cc might be a little difficult to achieve with Wasteland and Smallpox and it is a very slow answer to creatures.

Sounds about right.
A few questions about your list.

1. Do you still have the singleton Jitte?
2. Would EE have been any better in the Scroll slot?
3. Has your opinion changed on Grunt? I like him more in here than in Fish because you also run Shade for big creatures.

Man, Hanni, if you run 24 lands, definately run a Tomb of Urami and Volrath's Stronghold. Even builds with 20 lands seem to have problems with their threat density and that's with their 16 creatures or so. You run 10. None of which recur. Only deck that plays less is Threshold and that deck is 40 cards anyways (with 12-16 cantrips and a billion fetches). I think the best way to make Smallpox most asymmetrical is to play around it. Also, it's nice to be able to off your own Confidants in sitiuations where you have the control of the game, but are in danger zone. In my experience, Grunts always do their job, especially with Tomb of Urami around.

Also, if you run Quicksand, I strongly advice also Chrome Moxes, since if you're on the draw, you really don't want to lead 'Quicksand-go', but that might just be your only answer to their Lackey. Mox allows you to pick up the speed. Also, in my build which still contains 2 Gerrard's Verdicts, it enables turn 1 Verdict, but that's a non-issue in most builds here.

I just ran through about 5-6 test games and I was having serious land issues so I'm considering dropping the 3 Quicksands for 3 more Mountains. I'm not sure yet, it was probably a fluke to the MWS shuffler.

I will consider Urami, Stronghold, and Mox. However, I'm thinking I'm going to cut Ritual if I add those. Possibly:

-4 Ritual
-1 Quicksand
+1 Urami
+1 Stronghold
+2 Swamp
+1 Grunt/Vindicate

EDIT:

Actually, I think I'm going to drop 4 Rituals and 1 Quicksand for 1 Swamp and 4 Night's Whisper. Draw seems pretty important for aggro/control and it helps "increase" the threat density and fix over the manabase (grabbing W and BB). The life loss shouldn't be too bad since I have Smallpox to snuff Confidant when necessary. It also helps me draw into more creature removal, which is extremely important. Whisper grabs 2 cards for 1, so it's sorta like a double cantrip (I said sorta, don't bash lol).

Anyway, my goal for the list I presented above is to play the "control" and not the "beatdown" (I think that was referenced in a Flores article). I want to destroy the opponent's hand, lands, and creatures before I drop a fat Grunt or Shade as the kill condition.

-4 Dark Ritual
-1 Quicksand
+4 Night's Whisper
+1 Swamp
-1 Quicksand

27 lands? Are you serious? The reason I suggested Tomb and Stronghold is that you can keep a high landcount while still keeping a threatcount of some level too. Tomb can easily go in the place of a basic Swamp and Stronghold can replace any colourless land. That's a surefire way to draw nothing but lands for the half of the game. Even the most dedicated control-decks don't run that many. That's why I would never go over 22 lands in Deadguy, Rituals already add 4 more enabler-cards that do nothing alone, playing more lands means that you've only got ~30 actual effects in your deck, which is way too few to every actually do anything real.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Whit3 Ghost

Sounds about right.
A few questions about your list.

1. Do you still have the singleton Jitte?
2. Would EE have been any better in the Scroll slot?
3. Has your opinion changed on Grunt? I like him more in here than in Fish because you also run Shade for big creatures.

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My list as of last night:

4 hymn
4 duress
4 sinkhole
4 vindicate
3 smallpox
4 Bob
4 hippy
3 shade
2 grunt
2 cursed scroll
4 dark rit

4 bloodstained mire
1 polluted delta
4 scrubland
4 wasteland (could be quicksand, if I was expecting joblins)
1 tomb of uruami
8 swamp

SB:
1 perish
1 nature's ruin
4 e. plague
2 serentiy
3 pithing needle
4 other slots

In this deck, you don't want to run more than 5 fetches, as the life loss just becones too much with confident. The extra life loss isn't worth the deck thinning or the extra grunt fodder, as the deck generates quite enough of it on it's own. 3 smallpox because I only want to see one. The rest of the MB seems pretty self explanitory. Play grunts late and all that, but otherwise it's pretty standard. (Just for the record, my 50/50 with goblins was decided before the possibility of quicksand was considered, so it may be more consistant with an answer to turn 1 lackey.) EDIT: for clarity, I think grunt is a good late game card in here, but I wouldn't run any more than 2. ever.

My SB is pretty standard. The 2 perish effects go in against thresh in place of scrolls, the serentiys are just excellent in here, the plagues are obvious, needle just handles randomness like survival and belcher and such. I'm not sure what to do with the other 4 slots, though. I don't really need all that much combo hate, although negator or cranial extraction could work. Seal of cleansing could be played as could null rod and more general artifact hosers. STP, darkblast, a 3rd grunt, warmth (4-of in my local meta), or all kinds of other crap could go in there, too.

Hanni: That's too many lands. You'll kill yourself with Bob an whisper and fetches before you get to your desired game state. There also just isn't enough disruption when half of the deck is land. I'd try a more conventional (read: pikula's origional) to get a feel for the deck, then mess with it so it does what you want. EDIT: 4 vindicate is essential.

I personally wouldn't play any less than 8 fetches. With the addition of Grunt, the remaining Vindicate, the Verdicts in my build and the white SB-cards, I've really found 12 white sources to be the bare minimum for operating properly. Furthermore, I haven't really found the lifeloss to be a problem, usually I still have few life left when I stabilize if I'm forced on the control-role, and if I get to deny the opponent real good, I'm naturally never even close. Additional 3 cards that cause 1 point of lifeloss don't really feel relevant anyways, that's about 1 point of life more per game, which isn't really painful at all. Grunt-fodder and such feel like totally random benefits.

Actually, my list right now is running 24 lands with no enablers, I swapped the enablers out for 4 Night's Whisper. I also said that I was considering adding more land cause I was getting screwed on the MWS shuffler, but I never really made those edits on MWS. The current list is -4 Ritual -1 Quicksand for +1 Swamp +4 Night's Whisper. The extra life loss doesn't really seem too bad as long as I can stabilize. I'll test it further to find out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Actually, my list right now is running 24 lands with no enablers, I swapped the enablers out for 4 Night's Whisper. I also said that I was considering adding more land cause I was getting screwed on the MWS shuffler, but I never really made those edits on MWS. The current list is -4 Ritual -1 Quicksand for +1 Swamp +4 Night's Whisper. The extra life loss doesn't really seem too bad as long as I can stabilize. I'll test it further to find out.

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That sounds about right. Either 23-24 mana sources or 21-22 with accelerants. If I was playing with 24, I'd definately fit in 4 Moxes though, since you make card advantage at a disgusting speed, it's only a matter of being able to cast your discard when they still have cards in hand.

I was just wondering, has anyone tried The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale with this deck? I personaly haven't tried this yet.. although I thought it would be interesting accompanied by all the land destruction this deck holds...also, it wouldnt hurt you as much as you dont really play creatures early on... just thought it was worth testing...

@rsaunder

Although natures ruin and perish serve the same purpose... perish is strictly better.. as no other green creature can regenerate as well.. troll ascetic..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by f|i[p]

I was just wondering, has anyone tried The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale with this deck? I personaly haven't tried this yet.. although I thought it would be interesting accompanied by all the land destruction this deck holds...also, it wouldnt hurt you as much as you dont really play creatures early on... just thought it was worth testing...

@rsaunder

Although natures ruin and perish serve the same purpose... perish is strictly better.. as no other green creature can regenerate as well.. troll ascetic..

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Tabbernackle is an interesting idea, perhaps as a 1/2 of. I don't think it would hurt threshold that much, but the damage it could do to goblins with a little LD could be devistating. My only question would be is it really better than any other devoted anti-aggro strategies, and if so, what to cut?

I haden't even considered regeneration to be an issue in the perish/ruin debate. I suppose you're right, perish is superior, but I've been working against threshold almost exclusively recently and found that magi like calling perish.

My SB has changes a little, too. For reference:

3 dystopia (plays OK with grunt, they both die before too awful long and have great recurring abilities)
1 Grunt
2 negator
4 e. plague
3 pithing needle
2 serenity

So you like Negator over Extraction then?

As for my list I personaly run 21 lands...and if it is proven the The tabernacle helps this decks against really fast aggro, Goblins, RG beats.. Any kind of stompy.. I would run 22 lands look for something to drop..perhaps 1 small pox..(I only run 2 by the way).. on your list, You can probably drop a swamp, but you would know better ofcourse...since you get to play with yours.. I dont get to test mine as often.. I still think the tabernacle would help against thresh...they dont really have much basic lands this is where wasteland and sinkhole comes with the added smallpox... and they usually save up mana for counter spells and draw..paying 1 to keep their creatures alive would hurt them as well..I think the tabernacle is good against any aggro deck..well thats the reason it was printed anyway...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Whit3 Ghost

So you like Negator over Extraction then?

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Extraction was good against some combo decks (glimpse, belcher, and the like), but negator is good against all of them, and is inside my mana curve (a minor point, but yeah). If I was playing at 3 guys, definitely extraction, but there would also be 4 warmth in there along side it.

What do you guys think of Avatar of Discord for this deck? I want to see it work but because it's only a 5/3 it can be targeted so easily.

This deck can barely support Sinkhole's cost of BB. There's no way in hell it can support Avatar's cost of BBB.

I don't think mana cost is an issue, as I've never had trouble finding or achieving BB. Plus you have ritual to give you BBB. You're also running (At least I still am) Specter and Shade, both of which requires BB, so I don't think it's too hard of a task, being that almost your entire manabase is black based. I think the big reason for not including Avatar is the potential 3-1 it gives your opponent from a single Bolt, StP, Incinerator, Chain, Bounce, etc. The cost to bring it in is pretty high for a creature that's handled so easily.

Has Garza's Assassin been considered?

@Avatar of Discord: It was considered, but found in the same boat as negator. This deck is the control deck, and cannot have that much card disadvantage invested in a single easily killed critter.

@Graza's Assassin: This deck has a hard enough time life-wise with aggro as it is. Perhaps if it had somewhay of taking out mongoose, it would be considerable, but the life loss is too much for the deck to handle.

Good point Saunder. Exactly my thoughts.

So, I'm a little confused. Looking back on my records with this deck, I have never lost a game in a tournament to goblins. This involves 8 matches, all of which were properly recorded, I assure you. 2 of the matches were when 2 e.plague were still MB, 2 matches with 4 funeral charms MB, 1 with 1 jitte, 1 with 2 EE, and 2 with the 3 smallpox build I'm playing now. 4 e. plague have always been present, but aside from those first 2 matches, they've been SB. I've always played scroll, and that's just a big thing against them. I'm not really sure how that happened, in retrospect.

How do you guys find your matchup with the little green men? And with threshold? Any playtips for that pain in the ass match? I lost 2-1 to pox last weekend, have you guys found similar results?

Black Lotus tournament that I never want to remember again.

I ran gobs other guy ran b/w confidant.

Game 1: lackey, siege gang, swing, swing.
My opponent top decks the 2 Engineered Plague. Ummmm ok game.

Game 2: lackey, siege gang, goblin king, swing, swing.
My opponent top decks 2 more EP's. Game.

So I dont know what's happening either. If he never got any EP's top deck he would've been completely hardcore owned.

Edit:
I just wanted to say that when I ran Cursed Scrolls I never had luck with them. I almost always had 2 to 3 cards in my hands even after I drop Scroll late game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by al the great

So I dont know what's happening either. If he never got any EP's top deck he would've been completely hardcore owned.
Edit:
I just wanted to say that when I ran Cursed Scrolls I never had luck with them. I almost always had 2 to 3 cards in my hands even after I drop Scroll late game.

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I play the same tactic in my Survival deck that won both Source Tourneys. I don't Maindeck them so I either lose or I am lucky in game 1. In games 2+3 I play very defensive and for Plague advantage with E Tutor as win condition. It is quite effective.

To Scroll: I have no idea why you have cards in hand in the lategame with this deck. You play out your spells as soon as possible, the mana curve is really low and you have Rituals.

For the deck:

What about Swarmyard? It can regenerate Nantuko Shade (insect) which is really huge. With Rats like maybe Nezumi Shortfang this could be playable, maybe this is the wrong deck, but regenerating Shades (and maybe other stuff, too) is really great.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tao

I play the same tactic in my Survival deck that won both Source Tourneys. I don't Maindeck them so I either lose or I am lucky in game 1. In games 2+3 I play very defensive and for Plague advantage with E Tutor as win condition. It is quite effective.

To Scroll: I have no idea why you have cards in hand in the lategame with this deck. You play out your spells as soon as possible, the mana curve is really low and you have Rituals.

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Wow... techy. My friend does the same thing with old school Rock. His deck was too slow and underwhelming against Goblins because he loses Domination od the board quite easily. So Plague was pretty much there to get him to rise back up.

@Scroll: If you dont topdeck a Confidant, this card is quite nice to have. Sad to say, I dont think Confidant is enough for the deck. I also sort or dislike the idea of aggressively mulling. I was also quite impressed by who strong Scroll is versus aggro.

Instead of Scrolls I put in 2x Spectral Lynx. Lynx equipped with Jitte has won me games like non other.

What was your list? I found that the deck just couldn't support jitte with so few creatures that stick around.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rsaunder

What was your list? I found that the deck just couldn't support jitte with so few creatures that stick around.

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10 Swamp
4 Scrubland
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wasteland
1 Tainted Field

Creatures:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Nantuko Shade
2 Spectral Lynx

Spells:
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Dark Ritual
4 Vindicate
2 Ummezawa's Jitte
2 Engineered Plague

Do you mind MB plage is still worthwhile? Why no small pox?

The plague has helped me but you're right I really should try out Smallpox. I'll give it a test run tonight and see how that goes.

I'm thinking of taking out my 2 Engineered Plagues (mainboard to sideboard) for 2x Quicksand for my meta. Right now everyone is playing random red, random green weenie stompies, white weenies. I have yet to try out Smallpox cuz I've been hella lazy.

I think Tao has some interesting ideas. Do you guys think that Nezumi Shortfang can have big potential in Legacy?

I like the idea of shortfang, and also the interaction it has, along with nantuko shade, with swarmyard. I think we could probably eschew one of the disruption routes of this deck and go all out on attacking the hand, replacing wasteland with swarmyard, and perhaps including jitte (now that we can regenerate about 1/2 our creatures with swarmyard).
Also, funeral charm could provide another answer to lacky and great versatility along with vindicate, and it helps with getting your shortfang flipped.

An initial idea for a list could be something like this:
21 land:
1x tainted field
2x bloodstained mire
3x polluted delta
4x scrubland
7x swamp
4x swarmyard

15 creatures:
4x nezumi shortfang
4x hypnotic specter
4x dark confidant
3x nantuko shade

2 artifacts:
2x umezawa's jitte

23 other spells:
4x dark ritual
4x swords to plowshares
4x duress
4x hymn to tourach
3x funeral charm
3x vindicate

SB:
4x jotun grunt
4x cabal therapy
4x engineered plague
2x darkblast
1x umezawa's jitte

We have a great suite of cards to attack the hand, and jitte is better due to the regeneration swarmyard provides. You also don't have to hold back as much mana to keep shade alive from burn spells, so you can probably deal more damage with him.

Out of the board grunt handles a multitude of decks (thresh mainly), and the third jitte complements darkblast and plague as horde control against goblins.
The combo matchup should stay pretty good due to the massive amounts of discard (and vindicate acting as land d). This might be fun to try.

The Shortfangs I think are a good idea and I understand that the Swarmyards regen them but honestly will x4 Swarmyards in the deck hurt it more than it would help?

They wouldn't cause mana problems if that's what you mean, since they are replacing wasteland and provide colorless mana as well. And I think in multiples they actually get better (you can regenerate a shade more than once in a turn for example).

Like I said this is just an idea, I'll see if I can throw this together and do some testing if people are interested in it. (plus I think the yards have potential to make jitte crazy...)

I see what you mean now with replacing Wastelands. I will try this out tonight sound pretty fun.

I really like the look of this build and might give it a try as well!

If we want to go the discard-route what about Gerrard's Verdict? It's a 2-for-1 and the potential lifegain isn't bad either.

Ok I changed some little things last night for my meta.

-2 Engineered Plague (back to sideboard)
-2 Wastelands

+2 Gerard's Verdict (I really am underestimating these cards)
+2 Quicksand.

It's working better already with Gerard's Verdict back in for me at least. Also the past few weeks I have only used Plague's to kill off 1 creature on the field it's really annoying so I think Quicksand will be a great add for me.

Ya ya I'm a horrible player I'll try Smallpox later this week with my friends.

So, what does everybody's SB look like now? Is anybody still using 4 e. plague? What's your thresh hate of choice? Negator or something else or nothing at all for combo? What do your plans look like?

I have it on good authority that Dystopia is more devistating to thresh's game plan than Perish, but I've won entire games against Mulletus with RGSA and against many secret force decks with a single perish. Especially with Grunt MB and SB (he would tend to be in there the same times dystopia would), there's no synergy. I'm torn, but if rifter or AS see much play ever, I'll totally go Dystopia.

@Negator: I love him in the combo matchup, as he's the best clock the deck could have. Given that I have 2 slots that out of the MB for combo (2 scroll), I was thinking that perhaps, I could cut it down to 1 negator and use the singleton grunt as well. That would give me an extra slot, but for what I'm not sure.

1 Jotun Grunt
3 Dystopia/Perish (Undecided)
4 E. Plague
2 Serenity
3 Pithing Needle
2 P. Negator

VS Thresh:
-2 Cursed Scroll
-1 Hippy
-1 [undecided]Hippy/Tomb of uruami/sinkhole/duress
+3 Dystopia/Perish
+1 Grunt

Combo of any sort:

-2 scroll
+2 Negator

Affinity

+2 Serenity
+2 Needle
-4 Duress

RGSA or survival

+3 Needle
+3 Dystopia/Perish
+1 Grunt
-2 Scroll
-4 sinkhole
-1 Duress

Goblins

-4 duress
+4 Plague

Control (rifter/landstill)

+3 Dystopia [not perish][rifter/wombat only]
+1 Grunt
+2 Negator [not V. Rifter]
+3 Needle [landstill only]

How do you do it?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by al the great

-2 Engineered Plague (back to sideboard)
...
Also the past few weeks I have only used Plague's to kill off 1 creature on the field it's really annoying

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Actually, you used E Plague to kill off one creature and stop your opponent from playing any more X/1 creatures of that type, but point taken. I currently keep it in the sideboard, myself.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rsaunder

3 Dystopia/Perish (Undecided)

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I personally prefer the flexibility and repeatability of Dystopia over the speed and predictability of Perish. I especially like keeping it on the board a few extra turns after the opponent has no more relevant permanents, and using it as a sort of "Orim's Chant" for Green and White permanent spells.