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I played a Virtue's Ruin in board for the Saturday legacy #1 event at GP Portland. I didn't play against D&T (although there was a ton of it), but did board it in against Esperblade with Lingering Souls. He Misdirected my Hymn and hit it though :frown: It's ok, won that game.
Hey guys. So Here's a mini-report of what I played against in the IQ last weekend:
My list for reference:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Disfigure
1 Sylvan Library
1 Liliana of the Veil
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Liliana of the Veil
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Disfigure
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Here's how the rounds went:
Round 1: ANT - 0-2 Loss
Round 2: Burn - 2-0 Win
Round 3 ANT - 2-1 Win
Round 4 Esper Delver - 2-1 Win
Round 5 Manaless Dredge - ID for Top 8 Spot
Top 8 Round 1: Oops All Spells - 2-0 Win
Top 8 Round 2: Tin Fins - 2-1 Win
Top 8 Round 3: ANT - Split the winnings to where I got the Invite, first place, and half the packs while he got the cash between first and second. He was okay with that since he's already queued up for SCG Invitationals.
Weird field eh? Was mostly combo and burn. Also I was the only guy with Force of Will in the Top 8 lol.
One question: Against my round one ANT opponent I kept the following hand on the play in game 2: 1 Delver, 1 Deathrite, 1 brainstorm, 4 lands (2-3 of which were fetches). Would you keep this against ANT? My thought process was ANT is a Turn 3-4 combo deck on average so I didn't feel the need to mulligan looking for more disruption. The argument against it is that if they play a turn one discard spell I can get pretty boned, but I'm not sure if I can play around that either. I got punished because he actually had the nut. On his first turn he probed me, saw I had nothing, and went off turn one. I don't think you can play around ANT going off turn one. What I'm really wondering is if you guys think this hand is keep-able based on ANT's average draws?
If you knew that he was on ANT, I'd throw it back, especially on the draw. It doesn't just not do much, it pretty muh makes you play land, DRS so you can do Brainstorm + Delver or discard turn 2, meaning your Delver might not flip on turn 3...etc. It's a pretty risky hand.
I was curious what results people have had with the dark confidant version of this deck. I saw the version that placed 4th at SCG and was curious what people thought of it.
This is the list for reference. Stifle is also in interesting inclusion, at the cost of space for Lilliana
Creatures (17)
3 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis
Lands (18)
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
Spells (25)
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
4 Ponder
Sideboard
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Arcane Laboratory
2 Disfigure
3 Divert
1 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Marsh Casualties
@Dragonslayer_90: Maybe I just have exceedingly poor luck against ANT, but in my experience they have the resources and go for the Turn 1 KO often enough that I typically won't keep a hand on the draw without FoW + blue card.
@trollking21: I only run a singleton Dark Confidant for now and don't like running multiples unless I'm main boarding Sylvan Library as well. To be fair, I'm still fairly new to piloting this archetype, so I would consider some of the other users' opinions with more weight than my own. I'm also very found of Stifle and like the extra edge it grants me against Storm and Miracles.
I'm new to TA, so take this with a grain of salt, but I picked up the deck because I was tired of losing to it when I played ANT. That opener looks strong. ANT's T1's are so, so rare, and even more so with a Probe to check for safety. The only risky part is what you pointed out; they can get your Brainstorm and you won't be able to turn it into a Hymn, a Liliana, or some other strong disruptive play. Most of the time T1 DRS is perfectly serviceable because their graveyard will be completely under your control. IMO having a disruptive permanent against ANT, much less one that they can't discard because you resolve it T1, is way more valuable than having one or two pieces of permission.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonslayer_90
That list is pretty similar to Jerry Mee's build (see Post 461), although Jerry didn't run any Tarmogoyfs. The main issue I have with the above list is that Delver is weakened a lot when you have 17 creatures. The BURG thread went on and on, rightly, about the need to keep the spell count high in order to maximize Delver's power. The more you weaken Delver, the more I think you would be better off moving into Deathblade or something like that. Stifle and countermagic are better against Miracles than discard, so a build like this is logical if that's the deck you're looking to improve your percentages against.Quote:
Originally Posted by trollking21
Greetings All!
I would like to give a shout out to Sith (aka Dragonslayer_90) for his run at the SCG IQ at the Columbus PTQ this past weekend. Nice work qualifying for the Invi. I encouraged him to play BUG Delver over Shardless. I think the percentages you gain against midrange and control with Shardless are both a smaller percentage of the field and of a lesser magnitude than the gains you get playing BUG Delver versus most of the combo and faster decks. Anyway after a bit of a break from playing competitive Magic... I had some weird summer work scheduling, vacation, and some travelling for judging, I played in this week's Legacy event at my LGS. I played a slightly modified version of Rich Shay's BUG Delver list which is a bit more midrangey than the typical BUG list. Here is what I ran for reference.
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Daze
1 Sylvan Library
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Dimir Charm
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Wasteland
Sideboard
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Mizzium Skin
2 Disfigure
1 Null Rod
1 Gilded Drake
2 Golgari Charm
1 Engineered Plague
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Submerge
We only had 8 players this week. I played Feline running High Tide in round one, lost (1-2). I faced Dan piloting G/U 12 Post in round two, winning (2-0). Round three my opponent was Paul playing Goblins, winning (2-1). I ended third overall. Overall takeaways... the maindeck seemed very powerful although possibly a touch week to fast aggro one-drops (due to no maindeck Disfigure). In hindsight I slanted my sideboard for the Show and Tell combo decks but ended up being a bit soft to combo decks such as High Tide and Storm. I will hone the board a bit over the next few weeks for my LGS meta. I think that probably means cutting the SB Mizzium Skin and the Gilded Drake as they are fairly narrow in favor of either a pair or 1/1 split of Spell Pierce and/or Flusterstorm. Thanks for reading! Hit me up with any questions or comments!
Rich Shay is a smart dude, no doubt. I have a lot of respect for his deckbuilding skill in Vintage. However, Jace is not good in this deck, get that garbage out of here. You don't want to cast him when you're ahead, and he's not as good as Lili at coming back from behind. 3 Ponder is ridiculous, it's one of the best cards in the deck. Dimir Charm is fine, but requires a meta with more Miracles and combo than Stoneforge and Elves - Disfigure is good to necessary in those matchups. I just don't think that's where we're at in the meta. Also nice double-Trop, quad Hymn manabase. :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturtzilla
I've run this twice at the local shop (10 to 16 people draws) and have not had the consistency with it that I like out of a Tempo list. It's partly the meta at my shop which features one and sometimes two D&T players plus a couple of guys playing RUG and Burn but the real problem is a very good player who is playing BUG control and just tops me if the game goes longer than 5 turns. He sides in 2x Obstinate Baloth for game 2 and after I side the hymns out the list just feels underpowered against him. I leave Lili in most of the time but her primary purpose is just an expensive sorcery speed edict until I see a Baloth on the board and one in the graveyard. If I leave the hymns in and he drops a baloth on turn 2 that's basically enough to do me unless I'm holding Lili or the Diabolic Edict from the sideboard and a Force to back them up.
I'm also having real draw problems with only 20 lands in the list. I know that the cantrips should resolve that but they've been iffy and they really don't help in the no-land draws. In the 1-land draws they either smooth things out or leave me feeling like a fool for keeping a 1-lander.
The list plays a lot of tight games in the meta I described above but it is an overall loser after round 1 when I wind up matched up like clockwork against D&T, Burn, RUG or the BUG Control.
I would never keep that if I knew my opponent is on ANT. I'd classify ANT as a Turn 3, maybe a Turn 2.5 deck or so. That already tells you you need to have pressure and disruption in your opener to have a prayer. You have the pressure down pat, but with that hand you're essentially going in blind against someone who will pretty much just kill you T3 and could rip T1/T2 nut draws - and know you're cold thanks to Gitaxian Probe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonslayer_90
Furthermore, consider what that Brainstorm could find you. Assuming you want to deploy a T1 threat - preferably Delver in this matchup - you're going to be playing both of your blue cards. You'd need to draw 2 blue to have a live Force. Daze just isn't enough. Banking on a T3 Hymn or Liliana sounds suspect as hell to me. They're strong, but not alone. If you start with DRS, you have Delver to pitch to FoW and 2 mana to deploy a drawn Hymn or Goyf. Problem is, that's still pretty lacking in pressure though probably better than the first line. But if the Brainstorm doesn't draw gas, you're screwed. Consider: T1 you DRS, T1 they Duress. You might just as well pick up your cards.
tl;dr: Ship it. Just ship it.
D&T, Burn and BUG control I can believe are unfavoured, but RUG should be a favourable matchup.Quote:
Originally Posted by AggroControl
On the play I'll beat him fairly often. On the draw I wind up with tight games that are losses much of the time. Nimble Mongoose is very hard to deal with if I don't have a Golgari Charm in hand in the first couple of turns. His bolts and forked bolts handle both delver and DRS. He plays goyf with burn so my goyfs are at a disadvantage. I think the matchup is fairly even overall and unpromising if I lose the die roll. Having just 20 land in the list with 8 fetches kind of plays into RUG's gameplan. It's not foolproof for him but finding myself playing off of 1-land on turn 3 is a not uncommon occurrence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
This is why I don't think the RUG matchup is partiularly good. Stifle is huge in the matchup and Abrupt Decay costing 2 mana is a significant detriment here.Quote:
Originally Posted by AggroControl
I'm not really a fan of a Golgari Charm vs RUG. Yes, it can kill a unthreshed Mongoose, but those aren't the ones we have to worry about. As a mid/late game draw, it's pretty bad IMO.
I MD 1 Golgari Charm and I actually side in a second for the matchup, particularly on the play. RUG does not play DRS and Golgari Charm kills an unflipped delver and an unthreshed mongoose. It kills a goyf after a collision with another goyf and a bolt to mine (unless neither creature not instant were already in the GY at the time of the collision, which is almost an impossibility in this matchup). Late game it can save a DRS from a top decked bolt or forked bolt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
I guess my record against RUG, which basically has followed the die rolls argues that I could find a better card to play after SBing but I'm not sure what this is.
You guys should ask dragonslayer his record when we were practicing with me on RUGQuote:
Originally Posted by AggroControl
I do play a Liliana-heavy build so that may be why I don't feel that troubled by Mongeese.
As someone who plays mostly BUG Control, I think my match against BUG Delver is somewhere between even (with the stock list) to unfavorable (with the Shay list). The fact that your threat density is higher than ours is usually what wins it - things usually end up in a topdeck war after I've answered the Delver player's early threats, and the fact that my answers need to line up with the nature of the threat is usually what turns things against the Control list. Shay's build with Jace makes stabilizing after killing 2-3 creatures even harder because now you have free Brainstorms to exploit your higher threat density in addition to your already higher quality of manipulation and draw.Quote:
Originally Posted by AggroControl
The BUG Control list I am seeing is a bit unusual. It is designed to top delver lists and also compete with Miracles. I'm not going to give away his main tech but basically he forces me to tune out discard and then he has a lot of 2-for-1's against me which leave me with 3 cards in hand in the midgame to his 5, which is usually enough to do me. He is not less threat dense than BUG Delver. He's just more willing to wait until later to drop assets. That gives him a top position over delver at this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
So I played in a 75 man tournament yesterday at Squabbles aka MTGFirst.com in Glen Burnie. I placed 4th. Here is the list I ran:
4 x Delver
4 x Goyf
4 x Deathrite
2 x Tombstalker
4 x Hymn
4 x Ponder
4 x Brainstorm
4 x FOW
4 x Daze
4 x Abrupt Decay
2 x Liliana
4 x Sea
2 x Bayou
1 x Trop
4 x Verdant C
3 x Delta
2 x Misty
4 x Wasteland
SB
2 x Clique
2 x Spell Pierce
3 x Disfigure
2 x Grafdiggers
2 x Golgari Charm
1 x Sylvan Lib
1 x Krosan Grip
1 x Toxic Deluge
1 x Null Rod
It was 7 rounds of swiss with a cut to top 8:
Rd 1 - Mirror
G1 - I get out two delvers quick and miss for two turns while he lays down a goyf. The third time they would have flipped I am too hasty at the helm and draw my card. He adds bob to the party. Finally both flip. We trade blows for a little bit. I get him down to 4 before I die, the same 4 that would have come had I not missed the 4th turn flip. That's what I get for being away for 6 months.
Out - 4 FOW
In - 3 Disfigures, 1 Library
G2 - I get delver, deathrite, and goyf out quick and he doesn't recover
Out - 4 Daze
In - 4 FOW
G3 - I die to more goys and removal
(0-1)
Rd 2 - Lands
Funny enough I played a test game against this guy a week prior at another game store, we played a regular match where I won
G1 - I get an early delver and deathrite and remove all hope at loam, luckily no p.fire
Out - 4 Daze
In - 2 Pierce, 1 lib, 1 Null rod
G2 - Turns out to a lot like game 1 except he managed to get an intuition off for 3 p.fires, but by that time he was starring down a goyf and 2 deathrites. He nuked one, but was already at such low life he died to the next attack
(1-1)
Rd 3 - Miracles
G1 - I took over with delver goyf beats, he was land light and I managed to counter his terminus
Out - 2 Tomb, 4 Decay (No next level here, if he leaves in balance oh well or Im just bad lol)
In - 2 Clique, 2 Pierce, 1 Rod, 1 Lib
G2 - Delver and deathrite went the distance thwarting off STP and I forced his miracle angle maker
(2-1)
Rd 4 - 12 Post
I had never played against this nor did I know the cards in the deck
G1 - I beat him down with creatures keeping him off double post with wastelands
Out - 4 Daze, 4 Decay
In - 2 clique, 1 rod, 2 cage, 2 pierce, 1 Lib
G2 - An early Cage and rod shut down his hand and his top. Goyf and delvers went the distance
(3-1)
Rd 5 - Miracles
G1 - Can't remember this game that much, but I don't think he was getting good draws and goyf went the distance
Out - 2 Tomb, 4 Decay
In - 2 Clique, 2 Pierce, 1 Rod, 1 Lib
G2 - I believe this game went like the first game
(4-1)
Rd 6 - Shardless Bug
G1 - We traded removal back and fourth against delvers I had 3 DR's to his 1 and strix until his goyf joined the party. At the end he was 7 and I was at 8, but he didn't have enough to deal the final blow, I DR him out.
Out - 4 daze
In - 3 Disfigure, 1 Lib
G2 - I got land locked to 1 land and he capitalized
Out - 4 FOW
In 4 daze
G3 - This match went all my way with early disfigure and library. I was able to jump way ahead and he couldn't recover.
Rd 7 - ID
Top 8 Rd 1 - 12 Post
G1 - He is never really in and my early flipped delver goes the distance
Out - 4 Daze, 4 Decay
In - 2 clique, 1 rod, 2 cage, 2 pierce, 1 Lib
G2 - Another early delver and a DR close it out with a waste to take him down to 1 post
Top 8 Rd 2 - Thopter Bant
This was against Bob Huang. The games were close, but it seems like I never had enough for the last blow
G1 - I take out an early thopter, but some STP's take out my goyf and delver. I take him down to 4 before batterskull joins the party.
SB - can't remember what I sideboarded
G2 - Went close as well, but a much needed null rod didn't show when it needed and he got thopter sword of meek out when at 6 to an active goyf and DR. It pulled him out of death range
All in all a great tournament and not bad to trade $40 for 4 trops.
@nditiz1: Good job on the excellent finish.
In response to the discussion of the RUG matchup: Kobebryan, you know I just run hot a lot when we test. Don't take those sessions as definitive samples lol :tongue: In all seriousness though, I think this is just one of those very die roll and draw dependent MUs. Assuming that neither side gets too lucky or unlucky and both pilots of are of similar skill I think that it's pretty even, with the deciding factor being a combination of the die roll and draw of each deck. Remember guys, in playing this deck we sacrifice some efficiency in creating tempo for more flexibility, better late game, and a better ability to come back from behind. RUG is still the purest tempo deck out there.
Hot in 30+ games?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonslayer_90
I think this matchup is still 60/40 BUGs favor despite running hot. There's really no need to discuss this match all too much. The matchups we need to focus on more are elves, dnt, and miracles and how to beat these decks.
The killer card against D&T is Massacre. Casts for 1 under Thalia and wipes their board except for Grimaz and whatever they choose to bounce. The Flickerwisp they bounce with dies also.Quote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
Yeah unfortunately, it has the side effect of killing our own Delvers, Deathrites, and TNNs too.Quote:
Originally Posted by AggroControl
My preference is still Golgari Charm for its general usefulness, but if you want something specific to fight D&T, I prefer Dread of Night for its continuous one-sided effect.
What do the 2 cage do in the match up against Cloudpost? Any crop rotations or Primeval Titan triggers don't get affected since its only creatures that are restricted from entering play in Grafdigger's Cage's clause. It doesn't affect Eye of Ugin or Expedition Maps either since that searches and places into the Hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by nditiz1
I second what Esper said, Dread of Night is huge game vs. DnT. Also brings Serra Avengers into Disfigure range, too.
I'm looking for some help filling out my sideboard for SCG-DC, I'm running a pretty stock list (20 land, 2 Lili, mostly 4-ofs) except a Vendilion Clique and a Sylvan Library in the place of the 2 Tombstalkers. TS is great, but he's horrible against white decks and combo decks and I often find myself boarding him out. My sideboard is as follows:
2x Disfigure
1x Envelop
2x Golgari Charm
2x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Krosan Grip
1x Null Rod
1x Pithing Needle
2x Spell Pierce
1x Vendilion Clique
2x FLEX
In the past, these spots have been: Dread of Night, Jace, extra Disfigure/Dismember, Jitte, Life from the Loam, Surgical Extraction, Submerge, Stifle, even Divert. I went 3-3 drop at SCG Baltimore after facing no combo decks (not sure if I was just really unlucky on that front) and am wondering if anyone knows the DC meta well enough to be able to help me sort out these last two spots. I've seen it kicked around a lot in this thread but I really like 1 Jace SB for those grindy matchups- I realize it's not quite our axis of attack but he's such a huge threat on his own and with our high threat density, being able to just free Brainstorm each turn is huge.
Goyf owns though and if you are playing Tombstalker (which I don't) you have another big beater and one that is easy to cast after a turn 3 Massacre. The problem I have with Dread of Night is that it is too narrow as a sideboard card. Outside of D&T almost nobody uses x/1 white creatures. Massacre also works against UWR Delver, hitting every creature in their list except the token under Batterskull. It works against Esper Stoneblade. It works against many Painter lists including Imperial Painter, which is the toughest right now. No mana to cast it means you can wipe their board under a Moon effect and if Magus was the effect you are back in business, you do have to play a basic swamp in the list though to have this option. It sweeps Merfolk in the mid-game as long as you can spot remove a lord or Cursecatcher on the turn before you cast it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
It just has a lot more value than Engineered Plague or Dread of Night at the moment. It has more value than Golgari Charm as a sweeper but not as a control device.
I do not like Massacre for us at all. Yes Goyf survives, but it still kills at least 2/3 of our threats. It's decent against the SFM decks, but batterskull is the main threat we really care about anyway. We already run the Golgari charms for their utility and similar effect, but if you think DnT is a big part of the meta Dread of Night is way better. If not, Toxic Deluge kills at least the same stuff, can be controlled to let your x/2s live, and can even take out the pesky Germ token. I also think resolving a Massacre against Painter with a Blood Moon effect out is extremely narrow. We need a basic Swamp in play and they need a basic PlainsQuote:
Originally Posted by AggroControl
I wasn't thinking about a local meta. I was thinking about a bigger competition. I actually have 2 D&T players out of the 10 to 12 regulars I play every Friday night. I don't like Dread of Night even in that scenario because it does nothing against any other list I face regularly, which include BUG Control, BUG Delver, UWR Delver/RUG Delver, Elves, Miracles/SnT, EsperBlade, Dark Depths Suicide and Lands/Imperial Painter depending on what the guys decided to run that night. I think that list is a good simile of the current meta, although missing Storm Combo, Burn and Shardless Control.Quote:
Originally Posted by hobart
You're right about it being hard to resolve Massacre against a resolved Blood Moon but it is possible with a DRS. All you need is the swamp because most Moon lists, including Imperial Painter, run no removal except for REB's with a blue Painter in play. If Painter and Moon are both on the board, well that's a really tough road and if I do not have them low with a resolved threat I'll scoop and go to the next game.
I brought it in against Green Sun Zenith mainly, but it also stops the second coming of moment's peace. I also didn't know how the deck operated except it cast big dudes, for some reason I was thinking T&N. I never really got to see the deck do anything except crop rotate, repeal my delver, spin top, cast fog.Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowhunter007
Aha! I'm more familiar with the G/U versions of the deck that don't generally run Green Sun's and don't always have that many moment's peace either. Makes sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by nditiz1
I am loving Null Rod. Played it last week, won me two games, played it last night, won me a game. It's just too good to cut. Also with so many sideboard cards being Artifacts, it can really help. Cliqued an Aggro Loam player to find him holding a fist full of Grave hate and an EE he could not use. Love that card.
Ya null rod has won me a game against Esper stoneblade when he dropped a relic of prog. Also helped me win against stupid jittes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Greetings All!
Dragonslayer_90 and I played some legacy locals this week. We were both playing BUG Delver. I ran basically the same list I posted a page or two back. Here is a refresher...
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Daze
1 Sylvan Library
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Dimir Charm
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Wasteland
Sideboard
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Disfigure
1 Null Rod
1 Gilded Drake
2 Golgari Charm
1 Engineered Plague
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Submerge
We played five rounds this week. I played against Dan with 12Post, winning (2-1); Mike with Merfolk, winning (2-1); Ian with Merfolk, winning (2-1), Matt? with ANT, draw (1-1-1), and Paul with Goblins, winning (2-1). Yes, I did draw with my ANT opponent in round four. I we had a very grindy game two. I was in really good shape in game three but alas... I needed two turns to finish him off, (I had some counter magic left too!). So I ended 4-0-1 and ended in first place overall. Dragonslayer_90 was playing a similar list and ended 3rd, so a pretty solid evening. As for the deck itself, the Spell Pierces felt pretty good versus ANT. Additionally there was some Sneak and Show and some High Tide in the room. I sided on running the Spell Pierce over Flusterstorm as my current configuration is rather soft to Blood Moon and similar effects. As phazonmutant stated last week, Jace, the Mind Sculptor is a meta specific card. Currently I am not convinced that the meta at my LGS warrants running one in the maindeck. I think one in the sideboard is likely fine; however, there were a number of game ones where it was a struggle to get him into play to stabilize. Additionally I felt that there were a number of times where I would draw a Hymn to Tourach and want basically anything else. Has anyone given any thought to 3 vs 4 Hymn? Multi-Hymn draws are sweet against most combo decks and slower midrange decks, but against some of these creature heavy decks I find the results polarized. On the play it seems powerful while on the draw it is a 2-for-1 but doesn't affect the board. So you could Hymn your opponent's hand away and still die to the guys already resolved. Just wondering if anyone else has done any testing here. I think the deck felt pretty strong overall but against all of these tribal/aggro decks the lack of maindeck Disfigure was noticed. Anyway thanks for reading!
Hey man. I think Hymn is important in tribal matchups like merfolk and goblins since their gameplan necessitates them to assemble a critical mass of dudes to kill you usually. It doesn't affect the board yes, but it still goes with the gameplan of denying them resources long enough for us to kill them. If you want to side out hymn against these decks you would probably need to add more removal than you would want to in your sb since the first thing to go is most of your counterspells since they are worse for the most part than hymn I think. If you feel like you're drawing hymn more than you like it is perfectly reasonable to go to 3 though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturtzilla
As for my route to third it went thusly: R1 ANT (2-0), R2 Rbw Goblins (0-2), R3 UG Cloudpost (2-0), R4 High Tide (2-0), R5 Merfolk (2-0). I tried having two spell pierce in the main because from what Sturtzilla told me the meta at our LGS seemed combo heavy. I have just came back for school so I haven't played at this LGS in a while. Last time he played there first and second went to high tide and sneak and show. Now the field was half combo but I, myself, had a lot of matchups where spell pierce was pretty bad. Game one against Goblins in particular I drew too many useless counterspells. Definitely going back to my two disfigure main deck. It seems like my combo matchup game one is good enough between force, daze, hymn, and lili. Probably going to try maindecking a toxic deluge or two like wcm8 has been doing since our meta has a good amount of tribal and add a basic swamp to the sideboard to fight blood moon effects. Got screwed over by Magus of the Moon out of goblins game 2. It was not a good time:cry:
Hymn is great if you are at parity in these match ups. When you have the luxury of attacking an opponent's hand, slowing down their assault by attacking their hand is great. However when they are on the play and/or get ahead on board, it may slow their clock but you are still likely to die. It is not that you are not doing anything, but attacking their hand may or may not buy you more turns. I see these match ups to come down to what each player gets into play (and sure Hymn can help). I am just not sure you always have a chance to cast Hymn. Overall I like it one the play, but less so on the draw. I am interested to hear what others think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonslayer_90
Grenzo, Dungeon Warden activations to put Magus of the Moon or Thalia, Guardian of Thraben (in addition to basically every other dude in the deck) into play... spicy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonslayer_90
The best BUG colored card I've encountered for Tribal matchups is Toxic Deluge. It's sort of expensive in a Delver list, but it's also generally a blowout when you get it.
I've gone between 2, 3, and 4 Hymn, but I feel that 4 is the strongest for my build. I'm playing 13 creatures in the main and no TNNs. Also here to stay is 4 Ponder. That's what I had originally, and I've been back on 4 Ponder for months now, and it's fantastic. It makes the whole deck better. It's often OK to shave a Hymn on the draw, I feel. I frequently side out some number of Dazes on the draw, and usually FOWs against any matchup that's going to come down to card advantage. The exception is if the deck has a key bomb I need to stop. I recently tried dropping Thoughtseize from the main, and it's been successful so far. I played in a 37-person tournament over the weekend and was X-0-0 going into the penultimate round, but the tournament was misrun, having one less round than normal, so that made drawing complicated. I was sitting in 1st place and offered my opponent, in 2nd, a draw. He declined, so we played it out. I won Game 1, then got Blood Mooned out the next two games. (He was on RW Painter.) A friend and I got paired in the last round, and we had a very good chance of both making it into Top 8 if we drew, so we decided to draw. He got 7th. I got 9th. Oh well. Next time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturtzilla
Thanks for the reply. Just curious, what is your creature configuration? I have been also thinking about bringing the 4th Ponder back. As for sideboarding, I think shaving a Hymn is solid. Against tribal decks like Merfolk and Goblins, I basically cut all of my counter magic. They just have too many ways to make your counterspells dead (namely Aether Vial and Cavern of Souls). If I am on the play, I might leave a pair of Dazes. On the draw, I don't really like any of the counter magic. It all just feels clunky. Sorry about your bad draw... better luck next time! :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by ESG
Hymn is so backbreaking against so many decks, I would always want 4 in my opening 60. Yes, there are going to be times where I cut one or two, but in that opening 60, I want that card. Get two back to back... Ouch.
Honestly, the place I made cuts was in the number of Force, from 4 to 3. Added in Library and called it a day. My Meta is so full of Midrange and Control right now I feel that is the best list. But if I was going into an unknown situation, I think I would be likely to cut s Stalker or Decay (dependent on what I was adding in with the Decay) before I would look at Hymn.
I'm a fan of Hymn vs the tribal decks as well. Yes, it sucks to draw late game against them, but since those decks don't run Brainstorm / Ponder to smooth out their draws, I feel it's important to get them into topdeck mode as quickly as possible and allow the consistency of our deck to take over the game.