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When does the Inkmoth case come up? I can't think of anytime when I've activated and not been past the attack phase when my opponent responds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Svyelunite
I like Submerge over Dismember in the non-white splash version, because Reanimator usually has a Bayou on board, which means it bounces Elesh Norn, Griselbrand, and sometimes (but rarely) Iona, which Dismember can't.
This is extremely marginal corner case but of course technically correct. Not something to actively be worried about, I say.Quote:
Originally Posted by Svyelunite
Submerge is very powerful but like you said, white splash kind of makes it obsolete. In straight UG it has always been a staple for me. Nowadays even the Chad Hansen's Reanimator list plays forests so it's within the realm of possibilities to get a free shot against them in the post board games once in a lifetime. That said, Swords to Plowshares has some real applications in the reanimator and Sneak attack matchups. Maybe even against D&T if desired.Quote:
Originally Posted by Svyelunite
It's come up a few times when casting pump spells in the blockers step. That said, Rod seems best in matchups where we're not blocking, I think some testing alongside Needle is warranted.Quote:
Originally Posted by qomori
Has anyone considered just replacing Blighted Agent with True Name?
True name can't be interacted with meaningfully, locks up the ground if you lost the early game, and there are no instant speed sacrifice-causers in the meta that are remotely usable by good decks. Giving serious ways out from under Jace/Pfire/Darkblast/etc.. while being a legitimate clock on it's own seems ok. Just like Noble Hierach can, it may be decent enough to just combo with normal damage anyway; without the mind games or the worry of spending cards.
Just Noble Hierarch and Become Immense is enough to reduce the opponent, with no non-counter interaction available, to half health.
I do get that reducing the number of infect threats make the multiple paths to victory less reliable for a given path and makes Invigorate worse; but that's why I'm asking if someone has tested this or considered it.
EDIT: It's also noteworthy that it's not dissimilar that Vines + Berserk is essentially lethal in most cases (14 trample.)
What a stupid idea.
I'd prefer if you elaborated so I don't go testing an idea if it's completely without merit or so that people see an argument that makes sense and do or don't test it themselves, based on our armchair-general discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopo
I'll put my points out in bullet form:
* TNN comes down on the same minimum turn, and if it does, does not affect your ability to daze and is certainly a better board position outside of a Liliana deck (assuming you don't have another creature out yet.)
* TNN's clock by itself is a full 4 turns faster and is the same if you combo. They have the same clock if Hierarch is out.
* TNN can't be interacted with by the popular methods used against Infect
* TNN efficiently dispatches or neutralizes Anglers and Goyfs while you build to your combo-turn or fly over with Nexus.
* TNN takes roughly the same amount of combo cards (2-3) to kill a given opponent, outside of invigorate
They do interact with different life totals, hence why it makes sense why you wouldn't consider it; but there is literally only a single card in this deck that gives the opponent life, which would still combo correctly with Berserk; and most of the time I see infect win, it is a single dude swinging for awhile as both player draw dead or a combo turn.
True name has no place is the deck because it doesn't provide you with infect AND is one turn slower to cast
Yes, it'll be an "unblock-able threat" as well but who cares when you have to pay invigorate for 3 mana, rather than free with a blighted agent? I don't see how this "combo" works when a lot of wins have come from back to back invigorates or pump + berserk. Also, 14 dmg != 10 poison, it makes a HUGE difference.
Either way, I'll address your points one by one.
I don't see how this is even true? True name costs 3, blighted agent costs 2... you can't just assume you're going to have a first turn hierarch every game.Quote:
* TNN comes down on the same minimum turn, and if it does, does not affect your ability to daze and is certainly a better board position outside of a Liliana deck (assuming you don't have another creature out yet.)
TNN is a 7 turn clock from scratch, and a blighted agent is 10. The chances of drawing ZERO pump spells over the course of a game is almost impossible, outside horribly awful luck. This changes the clock exponentially....Quote:
* TNN's clock by itself is a full 4 turns faster and is the same if you combo. They have the same clock if Hierarch is out.
Such as? The only cards I can really think of that seems lots of play are Abrupt Decay and StP. Neither of them are a reason to jam TNN into a deck it doesn't belong.Quote:
* TNN can't be interacted with by the popular methods used against Infect
Why is this relevant though? You win much faster than those decks anyways (in general). Not to mention, decks running those cards have control elements as well and dragging the game out longer is very much a bad thing.Quote:
* TNN efficiently dispatches or neutralizes Anglers and Goyfs while you build to your combo-turn or fly over with Nexus.
Exactly, OUTSIDE invigorate, our best card :)Quote:
* TNN takes roughly the same amount of combo cards (2-3) to kill a given opponent, outside of invigorate
Wut?? Honest question (not trying to be rude at all) but, do you actually PLAY infect? That's not my experience at all....Quote:
They do interact with different life totals, hence why it makes sense why you wouldn't consider it; but there is literally only a single card in this deck that gives the opponent life, which would still combo correctly with Berserk; and most of the time I see infect win, it is a single dude swinging for awhile as both player draw dead or a combo turn.
TL;DR version - if you want to play TNN, build a deck around him (equipment decks work fairly well with him), he does not have a place in Infect's archetype.
I think most of what you typed is nonsense or dishonest argumentation.
Let's look at the facts first, and then areas of contention that matter; rather than quote-snipe gibberish at each-other in a dick-measuring contest. I'm merely exploring an idea here I had at work that seems valid.
Facts:
* 40% of the games (or so) that you'd see TNN instead of Agent, you'll have Hierarch in your starting hand. If you cantrip into Agent/TNN, that rate likely goes up or it never mattered
* Invigorate still works if you use Berserk and still works on 2/3rds of your real threats without it. If I were correct on this, you'd probably drop Invigorate#4 for Berserk#3 or something. I've seen plenty of games where someone combos off using Noble Hierarch damage.
* TNN is a 6 turn clock or better at default. If you think otherwise, please go play legacy for the first time and then come back. (Thoughtseize, fetches, forces, probes, etc..) [D&T not withstanding.]
* You will *never* spend Vines, Daze, or Force protecting your TNN; other than from opposing countermagic (which you would've had to do anyway.) This is important for considering how often you'll combo off (given you'll have extra Vines and countermagic in your hand on average by comparison to the Agent version)
Contentions:
* You will be slower vs. combo 60% of the time (assuming you were able to combo off)
* You are weaker to Daze and Wasteland (this is quite fair)
* On a combo turn with only 2 pump spells, you're more likely to require an additional swing (or, you'll have to wait a turn to combo off because you want that additional swing first to conceal information)
* Pendlehaven doesn't work and is too good to cut or make less useful
* Double blue is too hard to cast
Let's argue on the contentions and not a bunch of bad arguments/insults provided from someone acting pompous. Let's also keep in mind that 60%-75% of the time, you'll be playing the deck exactly the same anyway and this change wouldn't impact you; assuming I'm completely wrong on my points.
Invigorate basically being 8 damage for 0 mana is what makes the deck Legacy viable, I think. When you want to start cutting Invigorates, you should probably start looking at another deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by tescrin
There might be other ways to branch off from the father of this deck(Berserk Stompy), and I could see TNN actually working in such a deck. It would be a different deck than this one though.
I think running TNN in an infect deck is mostly nonsense as well, but I tried to be polite about it and explain reasons why, despite thinking it's a bad idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by tescrin
Not sure why the hostility, Infect decks don't run TNN because they don't try to kill with regular damage. You want to play a deck with TNN that wins with regular damage, it's not going to be infect.Quote:
Let's look at the facts first, and then areas of contention that matter; rather than quote-snipe gibberish at each-other in a dick-measuring contest. I'm merely exploring an idea here I had at work that seems valid.
Can you please explain where you got 40% from?Quote:
Facts:
* 40% of the games (or so) that you'd see TNN instead of Agent, you'll have Hierarch in your starting hand. If you cantrip into Agent/TNN, that rate likely goes up or it never mattered
On a best case scenario, you have TNN (3 dmg) + NH (+1 dmg) + Invigorate (+4 dmg) + Berserk (dbl dmg) = 16 dmg for 4 mana. Which is maybe enough for a kill but not always. It's also much easier to disrupt.... where as:Quote:
* Invigorate still works if you use Berserk and still works on 2/3rds of your real threats without it. If I were correct on this, you'd probably drop Invigorate#4 for Berserk#3 or something. I've seen plenty of games where someone combos off using Noble Hierarch damage.
With Blighted Agent, under the same scenario, you have BA (1 poison) + NH (+1 poison) + Invigorate (+4 poison) + Berserk (dbl dmg) = 12 poison for 1 mana. This also means you don't even need the hierach in play AND you are potentially keeping resources open for spell pierce/Vines/etc.
LOL my first pack of magic was Ice Age. ;)Quote:
* TNN is a 6 turn clock or better at default. If you think otherwise, please go play legacy for the first time and then come back. (Thoughtseize, fetches, forces, probes, etc..) [D&T not withstanding.]
You are right about the protection part of TNN, which is really the only serious argument I could see for playing TNN.Quote:
* You will *never* spend Vines, Daze, or Force protecting your TNN; other than from opposing countermagic (which you would've had to do anyway.) This is important for considering how often you'll combo off (given you'll have extra Vines and countermagic in your hand on average by comparison to the Agent version)
All these are added reasons not to play TNN in my opinion, except the last one. Double blue is not very hard to cast in Infect at all, only against wasteland heavy decks would you potentially have issues.Quote:
Contentions:
* You will be slower vs. combo 60% of the time (assuming you were able to combo off)
* You are weaker to Daze and Wasteland (this is quite fair)
* On a combo turn with only 2 pump spells, you're more likely to require an additional swing (or, you'll have to wait a turn to combo off because you want that additional swing first to conceal information)
* Pendlehaven doesn't work and is too good to cut or make less useful
* Double blue is too hard to cast
Don't think I was insulting at all... sorry if you took it that way.Quote:
Let's argue on the contentions and not a bunch of bad arguments/insults provided from someone acting pompous. Let's also keep in mind that 60%-75% of the time, you'll be playing the deck exactly the same anyway and this change wouldn't impact you; assuming I'm completely wrong on my points.
Absolutely agree... A "True name stompy" type deck with TNN and pump spells/berserks could potentially be a viable alterative to what the poster is looking for.Quote:
Originally Posted by out51d3r
Not to beat this subject too much, but I've actually wondered how the deck might function with a semi transform sideboard. I was thinking more along the lines of bringing in SFM and batter skull/jitte. My thinking is that the decks we have the most trouble with (grixis delver and bug delver) have a horrible time dealing with those cards. Not sure it's a good idea, but might be worth exploring.Quote:
Originally Posted by RhoxWarMonk
I've considered equipment as well but never with SFM, which certainly could be worth exploring as a SB option. As you said, Jitte especially is a beating against a good few decks in the format, especially delver variants we have trouble with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Svyelunite
I've been thinking about trying Divert in the sideboard for BUG(both the delver and Shardless varieties). It can be used to save a creature from Abrupt Decay, and can be used to generate card advantage(2 for 1 by redirecting removal to one of their creatures, 3 for 1 by redirecting Hymn to the opponent). Of course, it's useless when there's no valid target other than your creatures.Quote:
Originally Posted by Svyelunite
ive tried it (diverts) too in rug and infect (decks i usually pilot), sure itll be a great hit once resolved.. but u have to draw them early, and u need to run atleast 2 for draw consistency. midgame theyre trash unless timed very well, and if youre battling bug variants that runs drs, often times they can pay for it. if youre having trouble with decays i would just up my vines to 4. apostle's blessing can be of good help too together with spellskite. im running a 1 off REALITY RIPPLE, that won me lots of game vs decks that pack hates vs us. even the dreaded lilli and supreme verdict can be dodged by our beloved infectors.. can save a land too!Quote:
Originally Posted by out51d3r
Haha. My first long term deck 20ish years ago was UG, weenie creatures, pump spells, and counterspells. Reality Ripple was a fun utility card back in that deck. Definitely won some games off of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by poxy14
Mixed opinions on this one. Personal verdict is as most said, it's like a Spell Pierce with half the number of uses if drawn later or scouted out. Its a bit like Stifle in that it gets significantly worse if your opponent is playing around it. All of that said, the blowout potential is pretty incredible if you can catch someone out with it. Another high risk high reward card, I'd liken it to Teferi's Response if you have any experience with that one.Quote:
Originally Posted by out51d3r
I have never been able to get Divert to work. The decks you want it against the most all have DRS and spare mana. It's pretty good when it works, it just doesn't work often enough for me. Vines vs. Decay, Sylvan Safekeeper and extra creatures vs. Miracles and other decks with lots of removal just seems to work better. Against Hymn and Thoughtseize take out reactive cards and get more permanents in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesture
So I played the UGw version of this deck that Zach/Svyelunite played at SCG ATL a while back because I wanted to get a feel for the deck. With the only changes being -1 ponder, +1 sylvan library and a few fetch land changes. Deck was a blast to play, I just haven't been able to get a feel for sideboarding.. Do you guys have any tips for what I should be taking out? Some number of dazes on the draw seems correct. Other than that is it just the 1 off flex slots the ones I should be boarding out? Do git probes come out too?
4 Blighted Agent
4 Glistener Elf
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Sylvan Library
1 Become Immense
1 Crop Rotation
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Stifle
2 Berserk
3 Daze
3 Force of Will
3 Vines of Vastwood
4 Brainstorm
4 Invigorate
1 Ponder
3 Gitaxian Probe
1 Pendelhaven
1 Savannah
1 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Inkmoth Nexus
4 Tropical Island
sideboard:
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle
1 Absolute Law
2 Rest in Peace
1 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
2 Krosan Grip
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Teferi's Response
1 Vines of Vastwood
Quote:
Originally Posted by Svyelunite
While we're talking transformational sideboards, if you're playing the white splash and already have rest in peace why not add helm of obedience too. They'll never see it coming!!! :cool:
Lol, you're right, they would not...Quote:
Originally Posted by shocked439
IF there is a chalice heavy meta is Infect a terrible choice?
How do you play around a chalice on 1?
Infect can play through Chalice on one reasonably well, though I've found 4cLoam to be a relatively difficult matchup. As far as the other chalice decks (Tezz, MUD, Merfolk) I've had pretty high win percentages. You're typically fast enough to steal games preboard, and you have Blighted Agent and Inkmoth to play a longer game.Quote:
Originally Posted by James718
3-0ed a mini yesterday... and coincidentally, i slaughtered 2 chalice decks in a convincing fashion... beat mud 2-0, 2-1 vs dnt, and blighted was islandwalk all the way vs merfolks 2-0... got me store credits.. chalice 1 shld still be countered as it slows down our cantripping...but never was a major issue vs blighted and invigorates... i have main 2 become immense so it negates the issue i wouldnt be able to major pump via berserk. inkmoth alone is a beating vs mud. seal of primordium is awesome too yesterday.. thats why i dont use claim anymore.
Well YOUR local mud player isnt running tsabo's web i take it? ;) That card is a beating..Quote:
Originally Posted by poxy14
I just got my seals home signed (i love signed cards), so i might try it. Just dont like that it grows goyfs (vs. shardless) and costs 2. At the moment im running 1 krosan, 1 claim, 1 seeds of innocence (for the mud player) muaha. The latter is insane.
I dont think he carries it (tsabo's web), but itll be very bad vs us. Seeds is brutal! if they show up alot (mud) it shld replace one of my grips. Lots of miracles here in my meta so 2 grips are fine. vs goyf with shardless and strix, i will never put in seal, i'll just put in stps vs them : )Quote:
Originally Posted by Neffy
2 of my 3 losses at GP NJ last year were to Chalice decks (the mono-red Moggcatcher deck at 3-0 and then next round to MUD). The Moggcatcher list also landed Blood Moon and ran Sudden Shock (what a blowout). Neither match was particularly close...a quick Chalice, followed up by Moon and split-second burn is incredibly rough...while the MUD deck played a quick Chalice, Wasted my Nexus, and locked it up with Trinisphere. You'll be cursing the Nature's Claims in your board and wishing they were Krosan Grips whenever you face Chalice. This deck is pretty weak to Chalice on 1...if you're way ahead already and they don't draw anything else, you can play through it; however, I would play a different deck if you are in a heavy Chalice metagame. The Chalice decks typically run Wasteland, leaving Blighted as your only real out. I don't like those odds now that you can't resolve a brainstorm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesture
When people were talking about Necropede earlier, I wound up googling up Tom Ross's thoughts on the creature. One of the reasons he mentioned for keeping it in his sideboard was as an extra 2 mana threat vs Chalice decks. Seems like Viridian Corrupter could be decent there too.Quote:
Originally Posted by haymaker18
Corrupter is fine out of the board--but best if you play the 1x Green Sun's Zenith in the maindeck. Incidentally, the GSZ helps against Chalice too. I really like it as a 1-of...helps you find threats in attrition matchups.Quote:
Originally Posted by out51d3r
This is a list of bad things that can happen when playing against Chalice decks, no arguments there.Quote:
Originally Posted by haymaker18
The loss to the Moggcatcher deck was reasonable as they have several angles of relevant attack, while the MUD matchup can be really rough if they goldfish the nuts but overall falls in our favor based on consistency. You're absolutely right in that this deck has some difficulty beating a resolved Chalice on one, as we have cantrips, Glistener Elf, Noble Hierarch, Berserk, and Vines of Vastwood all costed at 1 mana. On the flip side though, there's no guarantee the opponent will be able to resolve a Chalice through counter magic, nor that they'll win the game if they do manage to play Chalice. Wasteland is a real problem for Inkmoth but isn't ubiquitous in Chalice decks, nor do Chalice decks cantrip aggressively like Delver decks to find Wasteland for our Inkmoths (again with the consistency). Overall, I'd say a lot of it falls down to averages. Chalice on one preys on blue decks with weak starting hands, and it'll do the same to us from time to time. We've all been there before.
I'd say our matchups against 4cLoam and Moggcatcher are negative for reasons including but also outside of Chalice, while our matchups against most other Chalice decks are generally positive. A combination of consistency and speed that Chalice Decks lack aided by our permission spells tends to be enough to overcome early lock pieces. I've been playing Nature's claims as an answer to the Stoneforges at my shop, but if you're having trouble against Chalice on one specifically, it should almost certainly be swapped out for a Seal of Primordium.
Edited for clarity
Are you running copies of Seal over Krosan Grip? Perhaps that's correct...just had never seriously considered it as my brain goes from Claim directly to Grip if I want to be better vs Chalice and CB/top. Seal is certainly faster than Grip, so that's something. For me, what used to be an easy(ish) matchup against Miracles seems to be much more difficult these days and I cherish the opportunity to break up a CB/top lock. Grip also has tons of value vs Taxes taking down Vials/equipment and preventing Flickerwisp from saving various targets. Seal is still relatively good against those decks if drawn early, but it's no longer a sure thing. It's an interesting middle ground that probably hedges well against the rest of the field while still being decent against the particular decks you'd love to have Grip against.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesture
Seal comes in for Claim. The trade-off is for Chalice and Countertop, while being worse against pretty much everything else (even Void Winnower). There was a point in time where I didn't leave home without 2 Grips in the sideboard, but casting Grip against mana denial strategies proved to be problematic on several occasions. I think I'm currently either running a 1/1/1 split of the three or a 1/1 split of Grip/Claim.Quote:
Originally Posted by haymaker18
Hey guys,
For a while I was going to build merfolk as my intro to legacy deck. However I've been doing research and not only does this look more competitive it's not much more expensive either. Would this be a good choice as a first real legacy deck (not burn), and what would I need to remove to get it about $1,500? Anything else I should know about it? Thanks.
TBH, if you aren't picky about card condition, getting MP/HP Trops instead of NM/SP will save a couple hundred bucks on it's own. I did that, and was pretty satisfied with what I got. Going this way on FoW and Berserk would save a decent amount of money too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Figurative
Note: SCG currently(for the next ~12 hours) has a Legacy/Vintage staple 15% off sale going on. It includes Tropical Island and Force of Will.
I'd also recommend going with the white splash, instead of the utility land sideboard. Cutting Karakas and a Wasteland will shave a couple hundred more off the deck(some people also substitute a Savanna for one of the Tropical Islands when they do this, which would be another $100 or so off). These are choices that some people consider correct regardless of budget, so they are definitely good ways to cut costs.
Here's a list that I quickly slapped together that comes up to less than $1700. With some bargain hunting, you could probably get it down to $1500.
i totally agree that most chalice.dec are positive matchups for us. theyre too slow vs our turn 1 (when on the play) glisteners or inkmoths, just dont allow trinisphere as it wrecks our free spell fows and invi, once u land blighteds, then cotv 1 does nothing vs Bimmense and invis. Moggcatcher is a terrible matchup! i brought back in a forest coz my other teammate is playing this.. badmoon is counterable... magus via cavern is shit! i once lost a crucial game in the top8 when i fetched for trop (i have no forest back then) with a turn 2 kill on hand, landed a glistener, with fow backup, invi and berserk.... he got a nuts draw of cavern, ssg, ssg, magus : (Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesture
aggroloam i shld say is positive, u just have to have a good hand vs them, pfire is slow, u just have to time your pendelhavens well.
i once use naturalize, but seal of primordium is so good right now. random pox will rape our hands, but once we can cast seal, it's an insurance too vs eplagues and soul's night betrayal.. and a free spell too when resolved early vs trini, tanglewires, multiple golems, canonist, etc.
btw, i inserted back in a 1 negate for my 3rd pierce (in the sb) and its been doin well, especially vs mud, elves, miracles... but a bit slow vs reanimators.
Cool thanks! Should be pretty easy to cut some money by fetching more beat up dual lands and forces, plus I already own some of the cards (Fetchlands) and I can probably trade for others somewhat easily (Inkmoths and Hierarchs).Quote:
Originally Posted by out51d3r
Is this list optimized though? How similar is it to the standard build? What could I potentially add once I got more money? Thanks.
The sideboard was kinda scattered. Just includes a bunch of stuff that people use in the sideboard regularly. You'd want to play with numbers here, but most of the stuff commonly run in the white splash is in the list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Figurative
The main deck is actually fairly close to the white splash version people are running.
The main cuts were a Tropical Island from main(a few people only run 3 anyway), and a couple Flusterstorms from the sideboard. $1500 gets you VERY close to the complete Infect deck tbh. You should probably also run 2 of each green fetchland rather than 4 Heaths and 4 Foothills, just so it's tougher for you to get blown out by a well named Pithing Needle. I just picked the Heaths and Foothills because they are the cheapest, and the Pithing Needle situation doesn't come up that often.
Other than that, the only truly expensive cards would be for the utility land version: Karakas and another Wasteland. Most people don't run both those lands and the white splash at the same time though.
This deck isn't solved in the sense that there is no optimized list. The linked list looks typical except it's lacking a Tropical Island and playing Savannah main. Your first job is to get the final Tropical Island. People used to follow Tom Ross's builds but I don't know, sometimes he is trying too hard (Glittering Wish build, clunky Zenith builds) And even Ross understands that decklists are not set in stone. He used to play different lists in opens in in invitationals for a reason. There's no verdict on whether you should go Bant or stay UG. You make the decision based on your predicted metagame. If you need those Rest in peaces and Swords' you play them. I have played a fair share with and without white and both versions definitely have their merits.Quote:
Originally Posted by Figurative
My take on this deck is that I have found the zenith builds very clunky. In my opinion, Arbor just doesn't belong here and I have issues with zenith not being able to get a threat on turn 1.
Yeah that makes sense. Hopefully if I build this deck I can get the fourth sooner rather then later. Besides decks that STP and RIP obviously help against (the mirror, reanimator, jund, dredge, MUD) how does your matchup with UG vs Bant fare?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopo
Hi guys,
I've lost against merfolk (1-2) this weekend, game 1 we are favorable but after sideboarding it's really hard between 4 dismember, 4 submerge, spellskite and spreading sea.
How do you do to win this matchup ?
thanks