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If you want to profit from card disadvantage, you should be running Ensnaring Bridge somewhere in the 75. But that trick is better suited for either Helm-RiP-Line combo or SnT-Omniscience-Griselbrand combo which wants to LDV their combo pieces with the additional option of finding a Bridge or Terminus for harassment/survival.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitefaces
Good morning guys.
This is the first message I write. Meanwhile, I would like to apologize for the not perfect English.
That said, it's a year that I've been playing wonders and I'm currently getting along very well with the list that jim davis brought to worcester.
The only changes I made were: -1 jace, -1 azcanta, -1 path to exile, -1 fetch; +1 entreat, +1 supreme verdict, +1 EE, + 1 tundra.
I definitely prefer the UW version, with which preban of deathman shaman I have made good results in local tournaments and a top8 in a tournament of 143 players.
At the moment, however, it seems to me that the goal has changed and I get some perplexities about BtB maindeck and the use of CB, which I never wanted to insert.
So I wanted to ask you what you think of CB and what answers we can adopt more generally against RUG delver, which presents 10+ counter maindeck (this is a match up that I find really inconvenient)
Supreme Verdict would help a lot there. Terminus is a little subpar because of the pression and Stifle
First, Counterbalance is really good. We're horrible underdogs to storm without it, its still the best card in the mirror, and it's great against RUG. Please stop playing lists without it. If Jim Davis hadn't decided he didn't like that card after playing with the deck for all of a week this wouldn't even be a discussion. Piay Counterbalance.
Second, Supreme Verdict will not help there; Supreme Verdict is terrible against RUG Delver. There are a few reasons for this.
1. It lines up horribly against how post board games will actually play. If they have Winter Orb (most will have 2), you can't play a four mana sorcery ever. From a straight mana efficiency perspective, Verdict fails miserably. All their threats are 1-2 mana. They will rarely deploy multiple threats at once. Many people are even taking out Goyfs post board and relying on Nimble Mongoose and TNN being untargetable.
2. The best cards vs RUG are Counterbalance and Mentor. Because CB is so good, your fetching pattern is often UUUW or UUWU, not UWUW or UUWW. You want to be patient and make land drops, hold up flusters for Stifles early, and cantrip. Then you go for Counterbalance with Fluster up, hence the 3 blue sources. Mentor is a nightmare for RUG. They can't answer it well, and if we play around daze, it dodges most of their permission. Then it dominates the board and invalidates Mongoose while rewarding you for everything you try even when you lose the fight. Supreme Verdict does not help this plan.
Mentor impedes itself after a point. I doubt anyone wants to run the numbers on this, but my guess is that it's probably 2 copies or 2/1. Doubt there's much reason to care about UWx Blade; they have about 6 wincons of which 5 lose to Terminus and 4 to SCM/STP. Their postboard deck's plan is still going to just fold to Disenchant (they can't stop playing the equip stuff). Bring in 2nd CJ and every way they could win has to involve sending their blue cards after your white ones. Why try to go all-in on white card wincons when all they will have left over are white cards which answer it (likely board up to 2x Verdict); just win with unopposed blue cards and perhaps the occasional Mentor. The Blade decks have always been fine, but it's just another way to have a worse win % with Tundra since they aren't derp'ing out wins with CB.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
Grixis is one of the most entertaining match ups. The only thing I fear from them is Jace. nearly every other card is irrelevant. Counterbalance is a huge problem for grixis.
Atm I play 3 Mentor (and 1 Entreat) and 3 Predict. I love the card advatage and predict at all but wouldn't play 4. You have to set it up, even if it's easier than Terminus or entreat.
I'm stucked in the summer break with no events I could play after the ban. So I have no chance to create a "good" list and I have my Dark Miracles totally in a vacuum. Can't wait to get some real results.
Three predict are a bit heavy. Against delver based they are really ugly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo900
However I think I will listen to your advice, inserting the CB in maindeck and moving the BtB in sideboard (remove the BtB altogether I do not because in some match ups are really strong).
Instead I still have doubts:
1) 3 terminus / 3 terminus + 1 supreme verdict / 4 terminus? Which of these options?
2) leyline of sanctity in side is it worth it? Against thoughtseize / terapy / duress are interesting. Ant should not be a fantastic match up.
3) 2 or 3 jace TMS?
Ty!
So far I dont have many problems with creatures. 4 Swords to Plowshares with 3 Snapcaster Mage and 3 Terminus were enough until yet.
At the moment I play 3 Jace; he is a threat, a win con and a solution for many situations. Terminus into jace is often times a point were the opponent loses the game.
I'm also a bit unsure about Back to Basics. So far it's a powerhouse against 3 color decks with just 2 basics. Or against various stompy decks. My first post deathrite events will come up in august; I will see how much everything changed.
2 Back to Basics MD
2 Azcanta SB
Each of them is stellar against different decks
I'm not a huge fan of Search for Azcanta, at least in my list. either get only cantripd out of it or terminus on my hand. It's card advantage, no doubt, which isn't bad.
Using Mentor as main win con and instrument of pressure, I feel quite bad finding it in Azcanta and have to skip it for a Ponder.
I loved Search in my Deathblade because I had to chance to get win cons out of it and I felt that all the spells had more individual value than spells in Miracles.
Maybe I see the deck wrong, the power level or underestimate the cards as single cards in my hand. I think the whole construct of the deck is strong. like a engine, each piece works together. But single cantrips without my powerful part of the engine, the mentor, feel bad.
Grixis control plays no Wasteland, is commonly played and it’s a super grindy matchup
There Azcanta shines. EOT Azcanta into Jacestorm seals the match in normally few turns
Today I participated in a local tournament, I'll give you a very short report.
First round affront RUG delver. G1 I come to 1 calculated life point, not random, and I win the game after having finished the cards to the opponent and solved a protected jace.
G2 I lose at the fifth turn, buried by two hundred counters.
G3 I come back again to 1 life with double counterspell, double swords in hand and the opponent without cards, but ends the time to the 1-1.
At the second round I face BIG eldrazi. G1 without history, eye of ugin wins the game. G2 I put 2 back to basics and 2 pithing needle inside, but the opponent accumulates enough mana to solve everything with two ulamogs.
Third round vs eldrazi AGGRO. G1 Easy victory. I solve a terminus and I do a mentor board. G2 I lose from double Thorn of Amethyst. G3 again an easy victory. Board control and then an entreat the angels (five chickens) solves the game.
Fourth round vs UW stoneblade. I do not remember well how the games went, but I won 2-1 because his threats create problems, while ours, if resolved, make games.
Fifth round we play for the top. I will again face eldrazi AGGRO.
G1 I lose it from an explosive departure of mimic, seer, seer and smasher.
G2 I played a really good game, attentive to everything and I take it to the control board and the +2 of jace.
G3 mulligan to five. I hold my hand with island, island, plains, back to basics and counterspell. He solves a seer at t2, fortunately without cavern of souls, i counter it and back to basics, a couple of counters and entreat win the game.
In top8 i affront UB reanimator of my friend, with whom I tested a lot. I already know that I have no chances in G1. In fact I lose it in two minutes counted. Post side I should win (testing I have always won eight out of ten, because of priest, rip, surgical and needle). Instead I open two poor hands (initial hand and mulligan) and lose miserably 0-2.
The deck seems to me to perform well.
The conclusions I drew from today's tournament are, briefly:
1) vendilion in side is needed to deal with BIG eldrazi even more than it is against combos.
2) too many eldrazi in this meta (or at least in my part) to fully enjoy counterbalance, which I think I still play.
3) 2 back to basics, at least in side, are necessary. Each tournament brings me a few games home.
So Volcanics and Blasts in the sides or BtB in the main? Not really a card availability thing for me, but I do only own 2 Volcanic 3 Tundra, not the 3/3 that you see often.
I think B2B is strong in my local meta, so that might be enough to tip me towards straight UW, but I'm not entirely clear on it yet without testing myself. I know that I probably don't want to play B2B main as that seems a bit cheesy to me, so maybe 2 Azcanta main and 2 B2B side for a pretty easy swap in relevant matchups?
How about this list? Any opinions on this? I want to play the 2 Counterbalance but I'm unsure about these Preordains or the maindeck Clique. Everything else looks fine and about what I want to play. Bonus points are that I own 100% of these cards...
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=19644&d=326025&f=LE
Just want to point out the obvious synergy between Teferi, Hero of Dominaria and Back to Basics. Currently there're lists floating around focusing on Teferi and have cut Counterbalance completely.Quote:
Originally Posted by ashent
http://series.magiccardmarket.eu/cov...acy/#top8decks
I am testing a list with Cliques 1 Karakas and 2 B2B MD
Containment Priest is less stellar then I thought. Current SnT decks are packing back again Omniscience and I think Meddlingn Mage on SnT is just better.
He will never be able to Boseiju into Sneak Attack and we can both play Pithing Needle, Priest and Hydroblast.
Possibly Meddling Mage is a good card back again? We need more combo around
Predict worst card of the deck. I thought much better of it
[QUOTE=ashent;1051980]So Volcanics and Blasts in the sides or BtB in the main? Not really a card availability thing for me, but I do only own 2 Volcanic 3 Tundra, not the 3/3 that you see often.
I'm playing only 2 tundra (9 basic lands and 9 fetches), so 2 BtB in the main and 1 in the side.
I dont want to lose vs BIG eldrazi anymore. -.-
I am not sure I would ever cut CB.I feel so better with a Brainstorm or a Snapmage in hand and CB on the fieldQuote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
I am much more convinced, instead, to play Meddgling Mage. Great for Abrupt Decay and Show and Tell
Uhhh guess it's time to try Esper Miracles out. Jeeeeez
https://i.imgur.com/FW1nNk4.jpg
Edit: Clearer picture
https://i.imgur.com/tD8cbDw.jpg
Abrupt is not anymore in meta and UR S&T has solution for meddling mage (pyroblast and more than one win con).Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
Ability 1
Jace is just better. It allows you to see 2 more cards and to get rid of 1 more card.
Ability 2
we have no advantage on it other than Snapcaster Mage, but there is no stronger position for it than the hand and Jace can return it to your hand
Ability 3
The most senseless and situational fatality ever.
Totally conditional and our forte is to keep opponent’s board to a minimum through Terminus and StP which is nombo with the only reason why this Planeswalkers is even a card
Dulcis in fundo, 3 different colors of which one that has nothing else to give us apart from this (and Thoughtseize, ok) in a world that super punishes greedy mana base
Alternative WC apart from creatures requires SnT. The real threath is Sudden Shock or occasional Volcanic Fallout making our 2thoughthness creature based hate pretty poorQuote:
Originally Posted by wtgger
That deck is strong and I need a game plan for it. 3 Vendilion Clique can help though.
Authority of the counsel seems strong against Sneak Attack but not against SnT let alone Omniscience
That deck is difficult to hate. May be we remove Azcanta from SB and we play he third B2B to never let Boseiju to untap
I feel like the UW lists lack a lot of power without Pyroblasts. The card is so good vs SnT and in the mirror.
UW allows Back to Basics which has been the greatest son of a bitch of the last 3 years against 12 Posts Big Eldrazi, Lands and Temur/ Grixis
If you protect it and Terminus effectively you normally win
If you're not running Back to Basics you will definitely lose to Eldrazi Post. And expect to see a lot more of the deck...Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
As if you couldn't run blood moon in jeskai if the deck roses in popularity, and tbh it's a terrible deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
I wouldn't say it's a *terrible* deck. It's got pretty good matchups across the board and some of the deck's toughest matchups are losing prominence in the new metagame. I think you'll see alot more Eldrazi Post in tournaments now, especially after it has done well in a bunch of the most recent Challenges online and the SCG tournaments held recently.Quote:
Originally Posted by NegatorITA
In a strange plot twist, someone is now dusting off the old toy previously due to DRS
https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...ccolo_th_place
Accumulated Knowledge
It doesn’t require setting but it takes the third copy to go on pair with Predict and Predict’s milling very often is an appreciated thing
Sure makes more sense to play 4 of this than 4 Predict and it can totally help in getting out of a Chalice lock
Don’t know. In a extreme Tundra less Uw version we can consider Vedalken Shackles and now this
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/c...-endless-atlas
Free card advantage. Again, it requires setting, mana and draws only a card
Azcanta is better in 90% of the situations..
We're talking about the version with artifact ramp, correct? Blood Moon is very mediocre compared to BTB in this instance, or From the Ashes + Null Rod if you really wanted to put the screws on.Quote:
Originally Posted by NegatorITA
I played a Miracles Mirror online agasnt someone with 3 Think Twice (and 3 Counterspells) in their Deck... Propably just a result of the insane inbreednes of the online metaQuote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
I play 3 Counterspell and I am happy with it. They just don’t cope well with Mentor but that’s a minor issue
I am thinking to cut the only lasting Entreat for the third Clique. Without Top I have never had the occasion to really ambush with it, but I don’t want to cut it it is really card advantage and requires super fast answer
My list now
2 Clique
3 SCM
1 Entreat
2 Jace
2 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Predict
2 Back to Basics
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 STP
1 Council’s J
1 Un. Absent
1 EE
3 Terminus
1 Karakas
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
2 Tundra
3 Plains
6 Island
SB
2 Azcanta (this can become 1 more Karakas and 1 B2B or the third Clique)
1 CB
2 Flusterstorm
2 Disenchant
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Mentor
2 Pithing Needle
2 Containment Priest
Entreat the angels is a very strong card against all decks that do not play blue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
Aggro loam, eldrazi etc. are destroyed by an entreat resolved in the opponent's end of turn.
The third vendilion is simply too much. Most lists play them only on the side.
Anyway.
I have an existential doubt that I can not take off.
I would like to play 3 main terminus and a fourth wrath in side, but I can not figure out whether to play the fourth terminus or supreme verdict.
Verdict is better than terminus against delver based, but I do not really like against d & t because of thalia and ports (although it has the advantage of having a converted cost different from terminus for sanctum prelate) and against eldrazi because of thorn of amethyst (which it makes it look too slow).
What do you say? Fourth terminus or verdict?
Jeskai list: 4th Terminus
Azorius list: Verdict
I think you are right, but still I think it's a terrible deck because of how it plays out, I'm sure he can just defeat a bunch of decks on the spot, it reminds me of modern Tron, which sucks, I hate big mana robot decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
This said, I'm running Angelo cadei's list (the same from Thomas on the last min ) and I think I'm good, I'm only missing one mana protection spells, in the maindeck , but I do belive it's only because I'm not of a mid-range player rather than a control one, so I still have to learn my timing.
I do belive thought that quite the number of deck are riding to be troublesone for us:
Goblin?
Loam?
Some stompy will always screw you with chalices on t1 and storm is harsh if you don't get a cb on time
Edit
May I say I really like the AK pw list?
Unsure how it plays out with 5 mana pws but I like it
5 mana non creature spell against DnT with 6 non basics and 10 fetches?
Everything they can do against Storm is to hope onto Flusterstorm?
Also, what do they do against Show and Tell into Omniscience? They drop a land?
Fun and interesting but the list altogether is too cute and AK make sense only as a 4of
I like the absence of Portent though
Anyway I bought 1 Avacyn in place of Entreat and 4 AK in place of 2 Predicts 1 Ponder and 1 Counterspell
Let’s see how it goes. In case it should go well I think we might cut Azcanta from the SB because CA at that point would be enough freeing 2 slots for the long dreamed Meddling Mage or Stony Silent
That's my doubt indeed, without cb some combo match looks really awfulQuote:
Originally Posted by Poron
Which avacyn are you talking about?
Archangel Avacyn but I have already realized that the power of being able to Instant win gives this deck another 20% of good reason to be played
1 Entreat is going to stay
The Moat is coming in instead. Goblin, Elves, Merfolk, Maverick and a lot of other bitches who deserve some SB hate
Anyway red and Kozilek’s Return is still super needed
Maverick DnT and Goblin are common and it’s super effetctive
So true. Moat is back also in my SB.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
I play 1 copy MD in my Enchantress deck and it totally shuts down a lot of strong creature decks.
Kozilek's return is great against D&T.
Concerning Tefeiri, I tried 1 combined with B2B (and 2 Volcanic Island). I may be wrong but it feels too expensive... especially against decks with good mana denial strategies.
I expect a 5 mana spell to be more impactfull (like Entreat)
A flipped Archangel Avacyn is an additional Terminus and flies over Moat
Serenity won me a couple of Moon Stompy matches. That and Terminus just gets everything they play but Chandra
2 Moat
2 Serenity
2 Back to Basics
2 Pithing Needle
2 Canonist
3 Flusterstorm
2 Meddling Mage
MD has
2 Counterbalance
2 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
2 Search for Azcanta
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Council’s Judgement
1 EE
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Predict
1 Avacyn
2 Clique
2 Jace
3 Terminus
1 Entreat
2 Tundra
9 fetches
1 Karakas
3 Plains
5 Island
Great cards:
Spell Snare
Moat
Serenity
Vendilion Clique
Jace
Lackluster
Counterbalance (too random really) you are never allowed to Brainstorm aggressively
Mentor (way too nombo with Moat and Terminus)
Jeskai improvement
Blood Moon over B2B
By Force over Serenity.
Wear/Tear over Disenchant/Serenity
Kozilek’s Return and then Mentor back to its best again with Meekstone
Pyroblast
These are not minor.
I did not consider Solmnity. Good idea.
I like the direction you are taking.
With your Karakas and Avacyn to protect your creatures, would it be interesting to play 1 Venser, shaper savant and 1 Minamo ? Old but effective combo I played a few years back, with Dragonlord Ojutai as a kill.