Fish has a very poor Aggro matchup, and there will definitely be enough aggro at the GP.
Printable View
Fish has a very poor Aggro matchup, and there will definitely be enough aggro at the GP.
Says who?Quote:
Fish has a very poor Aggro matchup
Yes, Fish has a very strong aggro MU. It has Mom, Avenger, Grunt, and Jitte.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
Grunt doesn't do enough. Grunt is a solid wall against quick aggro for a few turns, not much more. Against a deck like goblins, you need a mom turn 1 and to survive to activate and have a creature to swing with a Jitte on it in time. Goblin decks will still run Tin Street Hooligan MD and Grips in the side. A good Goblin, Red Death, or Affinity (If you happen to play against Affinity) player will raaaaaape your face. Goblins and Red Death are still very playable. E Plague isn't even close to enough to battle Goblins, the matchups are horrendous.
Bullshit, UWb Fish has got good matchups overall. And it's very versatile. That's why it made multiple Top8s here in Germany, not because it was rogue (we Germans often look around here, that's why it was not a surprise that UWb Fish had it's hype). But the question was, how to beat it. But it also depends on the player and how thes set the Meddling Mages.Quote:
Originally Posted by Awesomator
Anyways, isn't this supposed to be the NQG-W Thread?!
I'm going to play NQGw at the GP Straßbourg where TimeSpiral is then legal.
The only question is, if i play Imba-Grow (aka. Counterbalanced Grow) or the build with Mishra's Bauble which Tao is developing.
Mishra's Bauble allows a great setup with Predict, makes fast Threshold and pumps Tarmogoyf up.
1) Your meta is different than ours.
2)There isn't a deck that has all good matchups or else everyone would play it....
3) Kenji Tsumura agrees that the Goblin matchup is terrible for fish.
4) If it has all good matchups, then why are you playing Thresh?
Aside of that, while Flash is in the meta, there will be a lot of mirror matches, Fish matchups, and Flash. I like the counterbalance build because it gives you a nice edge in the mirror.
1) My meta is different, but strongly influenced by TheSourceQuote:
Originally Posted by Awesomator
2) I meant that it's possible to win against everything of you got enough skill to play the Deck and set the Meddling Mages in a good way.
3) Says who? I simply drop Jitte and win with whatever is equipped with Jitte.
4) Because I nearly got everything ASIAN, chinese Tarmogoyfs included (Tarmogoyf -> STYLE-Creature!).
And yeah, I'm going to play NQG/w with Counterbalance Engine (Counterbalance wins the Mirrormatch).
3)Kenji says so. Kenji is in the all time leader board of most money made playing Magic. He is a professional Magic player, creator of Kenji Fish. Kenji's anti Goblin strategy was to trick Goblin players into over extending and board in Wrath and counter all of the card advantage.
Also good luck with getting the Jitte equipped and swinging with it, I played Goblins up until Flash decks became popular. Jitte doesn't do enough even if you get to hit with it. Good players run Tin Street + Enough removal/tutors to make sure Jitte doesn't cause any trouble. Krosan Grips in game 2 doesn't hurt either.
How'd you hear about this? I'm very curious....Quote:
Originally Posted by Awesomator
Ok, I must concede, I know, I'm german, so my argumentation won't matter at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Awesomator
But there are many ways to handle the 2 things you mentioned: Counter, Stifle and Meddling Mage (last one for Krosan Grip).
And, well, Incinerator can be stifled, too. When I played HanniFish, I automatically won the game when a Jitte hit the table.
edit: How come I've never heard of "Kenji-Fish" or the "creator"? And if this Kenji made money with Magic, he has to be a Constructed- and/or Limited-Player. And Constructed/Limited-Players often have no idea of Legacy or Vintage.
A buddy of mine is a Fish fan and discussed Fish strategy with Kenji himself at a GP. Kenji said that in a non Goblin/Aggro meta, Fish is definitely the way to go.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti~American4621
@Adan: Nothing wrong with being German. I feel that you aren't playing against very strong Goblin players, just as you basically said you don't think I'm playing against top tier Fish players, so this will probably go nowhere. Maybe you haven't heard of Kenji because he's from Japan.
That's kinda cool. I'm sure he does have some knowledge of Legacy, considering this is the only format the Japanese have not dominated yet....Quote:
Originally Posted by Awesomator
"Bigger Fish," beamed DeRosa but his smile faded quickly as he turned his attention to his friend/opponent. "I am going to lose so fast he is playing Goblins. "That was a painful game," groaned DeRosa. "This is a bad match-up and I think it is actually better for me Game 1 than after board."
Just thought I should post that for those who were still arguing. Derosa playing Fish against Sonne playing Goblins.
I looked at the list and Bigger Fish was the list I've been quietly testing. Thought it was funny that DeRosa came up with almost the same build.
// Chalice Gro
// Lands 17
4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Forest
2 Island
// Creatures 12
4 Quirion Dryad
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Meddling Mage
// Spells 31
4 Brainstorm
4 Portent
4 Serum Visions
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Chalice of the Void
// Sideboard 15
2 Naturalize
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Stifle
3 Misdirection
Chalice is something I am still testing right now. It might just be MDed Leylines instead.
Chalice for Zero is all for Hulk Flash. It can counter Lotus Petals, and 8 Pacts. Why not to run them? I gave myself a cool way to win counterwars. MDed Leylines might be better. I'm still tossing this list around, and was somewhat okay with it. IMO, cutting them off from 4 Tutors, 4 Counters, and 4 Mana Accelerants is much better than cutting them off from 4 Proteak Hulks. Besides, they'll have a much harder time trying to answer Chalice via Chain of Vapor due to the absence of Lotus Petals.
So question is, Chalice v.s. Leyline?
Chalice at 0 is also cool vs. Crypt. Your SB and MD don't seem all that hot for the Goblins match-up. Am I missing something ?
Would a cantrip list like:
4 Brainstorm
3 Serum Visions
3 Portent
2 Predict
be interesting (I like predict a lot) ?
If you aren't running Mongeese, you could try Jittes.
I actually thought about that.... now to actually try it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Illissius
I guess we're back. So here's the question now; how do we break Goyf?
By not running it. I really don't see the advantage of running Goyf over Bear unless you plan to walk into a world of Thresh hate. If you get Threshold turns 3-4 on average, then often Goyf will be the same size (or 1 smaller) by the time you start swinging. Also, Goyf doesn't tap for mana. That is huge and alone prevents Goyf from being truly superior than Werebear in Thresh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti~American4621
My testing results kind of don't agree with that statement. Goyf is usually 3/4 by turn 2-3 (Land, Instant, Sorcery or Countered Creature/Artifact/Sorcery in yard) and reaches 4/5-5/6 by mid-game (I play with 2 EE and 2 Needles MD so this might help to make a bigger Goyf - EDIT: Also, 3 Chill come in vs. Gobs). What I like with Goyf is that you have the possibility of putting early game pressure on your opponent while building your threshold and whatnot.Quote:
If you get Threshold turns 3-4 on average, then often Goyf will be the same size (or 1 smaller) by the time you start swinging.
I've tested Goyf against Goblins and I think there is no comparison with Werebear here; having your graveyard removed and a little puny fanatic (or worst Pyrokinesis) killing your Bear(s) is annoying. Having to keep Bears in hand until reaching Threshold is also annoying when facing Wasteland, Port and CotV (which kind of slows down your threshold building plans if it hits the board@1). I can't remember one game where I thought: "I wish Goyf could tap for G".
The best advice I'd give you is to try it at a couple of tournaments/playtesting sessions and see how many match-ups are improved (or not). My experience has been positive but I can't say if my match-ups were representative of your metagame.
The questions I'd like to ask now are:
Assuming Goyf is to be included in UG(W/R)-Thresh, what creature suite should be played ?
In a more aggro environment, could Meddling Mage be put in the SB ? If so, what should be his replacement ?
3/4 on turn TWO? It is quite possible, but getting him to that 4/5 it harder for White Thresh (they have far fewer ways of killing creatures.)
Why would you be countering creatures anyway? Your dudes get massive quickly and can be flooded out if need be, with counter spell back up.
Also, I have tested. I have a pet deck (Sad Panda) that does 50% vs Bear Thres, but 70% vs Goyf Thresh. Why? Because, BEAR TAPS FOR MANA. People tend to underestimate this, but bear can power out Mongoose, act as mana in case of Wasteland, Vindicate, or Sinkhole, push your dudes easily though Ghostly Prison, support himself under Tabernacle, and a million other things. Mana is good (especially in a deck with 17-18 lands on average.)
For example, against Fish, Meddling Mage on StoP seems to be a common play they make (so you might want to counter it). Again, against Fish (or other decks) I tend to counter Jotun Grunt if I don't have StoP in hand (or my cantrips don't reveal any). In the mirror, it's usually profitable to counter an opposing Mongoose. EDIT: Depending on the board, I also sometimes counter Plague Sliver (which has gotten some reasonable play these days in mono-B decks and BW-suicide). Against Goblins, Ringleader, Matron, etc. depending on the board. Yada yada yadaQuote:
Why would you be countering creatures anyway?
It depends on the build you play. As I said, playing two EE and two Needles MD might help. Mental Note also helps to that end. Against Goblins, the yard usually contains Sorcery, Instant, Land, Artifact (countered Vial for example) or creature (Fanatic, Gempalm, Meddlng Mage, etc.). It's not that uncommon. The fact that I recently decided to put back 3 Chill in my SB which sometimes find their way to the yard also helps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cait_Sith
I agree that in some match-ups having Bear's mana ability helps, but I don't think that outweights the benefits of Goyf (particularly in the Goblins match-up); maybe I'm wrong and I'll revert to Bears, but for now I'm sticking with Steve (Goyf).
Well, let's see what Goyf kills that Werebear cant;Quote:
Originally Posted by Cait_Sith
Flametongue Kavus (and lives to tell both tales)
Hierarchs
Baloths
Other Werebears
Other Geese
Nantuko Monastery (which kill Werebears)
anything with the power and toughness of 4
Comes out early against Goblins, and shit happens when you dont have Threshold.
Anyways,
Counterspell, Daze, Force of Will, way to forget the obvious. This deck is famous for pumping out Dazes early game.Quote:
3/4 on turn TWO? It is quite possible, but getting him to that 4/5 it harder for White Thresh (they have far fewer ways of killing creatures.)
So you'd let a 2nd turn Troll Ascetic or 3rd turn Matron resolve? You counter creatures that might give you opponent a slight edge in the match up. Tell me why the hell you would let another Tarmogoyf/Werebear resolve? When you answer the threat, you dont have to answer the threat with another threat.Quote:
Why would you be countering creatures anyway? Your dudes get massive quickly and can be flooded out if need be, with counter spell back up.
The Deadguy and Red Death players seem to have a problem trying to deal with Goyf, considering the fact it is able to squeeze in damage much earlier and usually increases as the game goes by.Quote:
Also, I have tested. I have a pet deck (Sad Panda) that does 50% vs Bear Thres, but 70% vs Goyf Thresh. Why? Because, BEAR TAPS FOR MANA. People tend to underestimate this, but bear can power out Mongoose, act as mana in case of Wasteland, Vindicate, or Sinkhole, push your dudes easily though Ghostly Prison, support himself under Tabernacle, and a million other things. Mana is good (especially in a deck with 17-18 lands on average.)
Yes, Werebear is stilla valid arguement in this case, and we're still trying to ask ourselves if sacrificing the mana ability worth the replacement. So far, it seems to be more of a metagame concern.
I think that this is the strongest argument for Tarmogoyf. It's relatively easy to get a land, an instant, and a sorcery in the yard, which allows Goyf to come into play early as a 3/4. That alone gives it quite an edge when facing Goblins. Obviously, the fact that it doesn't rely solely on your graveyard can be pretty relevant post-board.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti~American4621
However, I feel that Tarmogoyf's major weakness is that it remains a 3/4 for too long; the deck naturally gets instants, sorceries, and lands in the graveyard, but the deck simply doesn't intend for its creatures or artifacts to end up in its graveyard. Only by countering an artifact, creature, or enchantment will Tarmogoyf become a 4/5, and I'm not sure that you can rely on that. I definitely don't think you can reasonably expect Tarmogoyf to become any larger than a 4/5 in the course of a regular game.
In testing versus Goblins a 5/6 Tarmogoyf was not uncommon at all. They WILL end up with a creature in the yard, that much is certain, and Aether Vial is still a must counter, so both those go to feed the 'goyfster. Also, a turn two 3/4 is far better against goblins than a llanowar elf for 1G.
I played a deck, which is not exactly UGw Thresh, but has the same gameplan (a little bit more aggressiv) and only Swords to Plowshare as a removal.
It is absolutly no problem to get a creature in a graveyard.
Let's see, what we are facing in the format:
Goblins - You also can/want to counter Vial = 4/5+ (5/6)
Mirror - Oh dear! Do you want to give your opponent an early Mongoose or even a stalling Goofy? No! Also, they/we are playing Counterbalance and Top which you want to counter. Either your opponent do so = 4/5+ (even the record of 6/7, even if it's minimal. But your opponent also got counters!)
UWB Fish - Mostly like Thresh, without that big threats (ok, Grunt) and Jitte instead of Counterbalance-Engine (most time. People are going to play the CB-Engine in Fish.dec's in germany. Also 1-2 Top's) = 4/5+ (5/6)
Life from the Loam decks = Come on! You don't even have to COUNTER their stuff, to get a fat Goofy.
In my opinion, Goofy is the only dog, who can wear a damn hat! He's just bigger than the old Pluto. Ok Pluto can find bone's and give you your newspaper, but Goofy is also able to READ the newspaper.
Goofy > Pluto in the evolution.
Thats hilarious. Im gonna call him Goofy every time I cast him now. Thats just what he is too, he's so good he's goofy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Windux
Part of me wants to play Seal of Removal to help him power up. Its a lackey answer and it gives you another chance to counter nasty things like Exalted's and Jotun Grunts. It coincidently saves your goofy from removal as well. Oh and its blue.
@Cait Sith
Your arguements are weak and paint obvious picture that you havent played with him much. Did you bother to make note goofy doesnt need your yard to work? That means Leyline of the Void and Tormods Crypt are much less effective against you.
I call him Steve Mc Queen and he has made people just scoop when I dropped him at 5/6. He is sick, you can't be bigger than that for faster without silly cheats!
The Great Escape and Bullit are both great movies. Steve McQueen is in those movies as well. Yay, I started a trend!Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzykat
Yeah, Goyf is just insane. I was at the Sideevent in Strasbourg and he was like... 5/6 2nd or 3rd Turn in Game2 (dazed Ather Vial, blasted Bloodmoon, Portent into fetch and dropped that Fucker).
2nd Turn! With 3 card in the Graveyard!!!
Umm...what else? I played Tao's Built with Counterbalance Engine. Sometimes you got a lot of dead Tops. The trick is to put them on top, milling them away with Predict, pumping the Goyf (same play with dead Counterbalances). So in Tao's built he can be up to 6/7 (I often just boarded Mystic Enforcer out because I felt like I didn't need him anymore, lol).
But anyways, I lost to a random Fish with 4 Wastelands, 4 Mishra's Factory and Spiketail Hatchlings (WTF?!) because my StoP gangbanged each other at the bottom of my library -.- *sigh*
How would you have that much mana to do all that turn two? Dazing would've meant it would get played on your third turn, and that means you would have only had enough mana to get Portent OR Blue Elemental blast off, before hitting your "second" land drop to play 'Goyf.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adan
Unless you floated a blue into the Daze, In which case turn 3 would still be the earliest it could get laid down.
I try to be above lowly name calling and ad hominem attacks. I expect the same of you. You seem to forget that:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bane of the Living
1: What kinda of business do you have dropping dudes turn 2? Really? Closing off counter mana and cantrip mana so early on. Who not testing wha?
2: In Legacy the difference between a 4 drop and a 5 drop extremely small.
3: If it actually became a problem, I could just whip out Planar Void. It is already useful if your deck doesn't rely on the graveyard at all.
4: He sucks vs Armageddon decks. Period.
5: He also is not as good as Werebear against LD or Trini.
6: You seem to assume that people won't adapt to him if he becomes a problem.
6: It is clear that you have not done much serious testing and are just following bigger = better. If that was true Mind over Matter would be breaking the format in a matter of moments.
@Cait Sith: Tarmogoyf is the beats this deck has been waiting for. It provides versatility in it's power. Yes, it doesn't produce mana on its own, but for the most part, that ends up being irrelevant. His strength lies in being extremely powerful right out of the gates, WITHOUT threshold a vast majority of the time. It means you control the board, and its you applying pressure in the goblins match-up. If I recall correctly, that was one match-up this deck had issues with. Your comments so far have made me believe that you yourself have not tested Tarmogoyf enough to realize the "Oh Shit" factor he has going for himself.
@Sad Panda. Spell Snare and Counterbalance are both strong options versus Dead Guy-esque decks.
EDIT: Mind Over Matter is awful, and your statement isn't close to the truth. A six mana enchantment has no relevant place in this format. (Although it does draw your deck with Urza's Blueprints.)
Threshold finally gets a bad ass creature and all we can whine about is how he doesn't tap (nullifying his attackiness) for G? WTF, PEOPLE?!?! Shut up and play the damn card!! He's a house and he kicks the shit out pretty much everything he comes across. I have not cared once that he doesn't tap for G. Seriously. And I hardly ever tapped Werebear for G.
Instead of trying to make excuses for not playing one of the best creatures that's come along for Thresh in a long time, how about we just put the card in our decks and start smashing face.
First off I didnt do any name calling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cait_Sith
1) Why wouldnt you tap out to play goofy turn 2?? Daze much? How about FoW? Hell one of thresholds flaws was the fact it couldnt drop a Werebear turn two because it would be too small and die. Not because tapping out on turn two is a mistake. Meddling Mage much? Counterbalance anyone? You dont need to waste a bunch of mana over turns cantripping so much when you dont need seven magical gathering cards in the graveyard to make him a threat.
2) No in legacy the difference between a 4 and 5 drop is astronomical. What tier one decks play anything that costs five mana? Keep in mind Siege Gang is almost always vialed out or cheated with Chief and Lackey. FoW is usually played for free. Why are you even bringing this up?
3) If my opponent is playing with Planar Void I have a better shot at counterspelling it than Tormods Crypt or Leyline start game. It can also be destroyed.
4) Why? Armageddon is gonna make him a 2/3 just with the sorcery and land. Thats if there are no yards anyways.. If anything I see him as more a reason to run geddon.
5) He's great against LD because you can cast him early as an early threat unlike casting Werebear early and having it not be a threat and die to fanatic. If someone has a 3sphere out Id rather kill them with a 4/5 goofy than dick around with green mana while they lay more lock pieces. Why would you be tapping him to play out Mongeese when your opponents just going to Wrath you or drop Magus of the Tabernacle/Ghostly Prison. This is the only matchup I see 3sphere being an issue so the point it moot.
6) I have no idea where your getting this. Pointing out he's obviously better than bear isnt saying he's unbeatable but he's much harder to hate on since it feeds off the opponent.
6 AGAIN) I like to play the best cards rather than sub optimal ones.
The bad attitude and borderline flaming that were in this post have no place in the LMF, or anywhere else on the board. Verbal Warning. ~ Nightmare
Who said they have to actually "kill" the creature? While your statement (part about killing creatures) is true, the fact that Ugw runs FoW, Daze and sometimes counterspell makes it pretty easy to get a creature into their opponent's graveyard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cait_Sith
I understand why people like gorf; in a pure Aggro metagame Goyf is by far the superior choice. I am just asking people to stop and think for a moment. If 'Goyf an impressive card? Yes, without a doubt it is an incredibly powerful card and certainly deserves a serious look into when it comes to Thresh. However, The fact that Werebear also quickly becomes a fair sized creature and also can help bypass one of the STRONGEST cards against Thresh, Trinisphere. The thing here is that Bear vs Goyf is still not a self evident choice. Depending on a Goblins player's opening hand, either card could be useful.
As a side note: Many people jumped on the idea of "counter a creature." It just seems that in a deck running the best removal spell ever printed, being forced to counter creatures early on against a non-pure Aggro deck seems like a desperate move to ensure a good sized Goyf and can easily come back to bite you when you need the counter for something more dangerous, like a Turn 2 Chalice at 1.
Edit: I don't know why I put "drop" in my earlier post. I meant "swing." My bad.
As oif you never counter a creature...
We play the BEST Removal in the format, that's true.
BUT we play only this one removal = 4 Slots.
Do you ever have a swords if you need it? No. So you are supposed to counter a creature. Just thing on Warchief, Ringleader, Mongoose, Goblin Matron.
Your only point is, that Werebear makes mana and that you hate Trinisphere that much.
The point is: Who is playing Trinisphere? If your meta is so fulled of Stacks, just say it and that Werebear is a metacall for you. But then I wouldn't even play NQG and instead run elves.
You argue just with "Werebear taps for green mana" against over a half dozen arguments FOR the Goofy.
The simple fact the one is capable of doing something the other cannot automatically makes it impossible one for to be strictly better, or even better in a super majority of the circumstances.
My only argument is not Werebear > Trinisphere (I just like it because this deck can automatically roll to a resolved Trini, especially turn 1 or 2), but in a meta where you expect to encounter Trini, Ghostly Prison, and Tabernacle, Bear is a far superior choice. A big thing in the comparison is ultimately Goyf will rarely be more than +0/+1 over Bear unless you run into decks playing cards like these. On average your choice comes down to running a 4/4 with the power to ensure a steady source of green mana or a 4/5 the gets bigger slightly sooner than Bear.
So that is what I wanted to hear :)
In a meta, where you going to see much of Stacks-cards, Werebear is better, because it makes mana.
That is totally right. But your argumentation before wasn't like this.
Even if the Goofy only becomes 4/5, in Mirrormatches will this be gamebreaking.
A lot of NQG are playing Counterbalance and SDT, which can gro him up much more.
Standstill plays CoW, Standstill, Disk, Deed at example.
Massive Decks are playing Engineered Explosive (so do I in NQG).
Worship is also played in NQG.
Goblins are playing Chalice/Pyrostatic Pillar and Vial.
You can Predict your own SDT or Counterbalance if it is necessary or not needed.
In every tournament-game I played, I had the chance to grow Goofy bigger than 3/4 (4/5 is normaly) and THIS is what makes him so good.
4/5 is superior to 4/4 because:
Gempalm Incinerator needs 1 goblins more.
Wild Mongrel nees 1 discard more.
Graveyardhate is redundand.
and it survives:
Pyrokenesis
Flametongue Kavu
Werebear
Ravenous Baloth
Loxodon Hierarch
and so on...
In builds, which run Counterbalance it is also no that bad matchup if you are playing against Suicide.
So in every meta, where you don't expect much Stacks, it is much better to play Goofy. Expecially in a meta with much Grunts, Mirrors and Non-Control Aggro.
Can we stay at this point and stopping throwing stones at each other? :)
I think that is all you can say about the debate Werebear vs. Tarmogoyf