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Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
-1 Jace Beleren
-1 Moat
-1 Oblivion Ring
-1 Hoofprints
-1 Shackles
-1 Wasteland
-1 Faerie Conclave
+1 Standstill
+1 Wrath of God
+1 Eternal Dragon
+1 Enlighten Tutor
+1 Mishra's Factory
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Dust Bowl
Basically, you're running way too many worthless 1-ofs that force you to mull more opening hands than you'd expect to. Wrong answer = dead card. Be more broad and use cards like EE. I know this might contradict WoG, but WoG is more important than Shackles because WoG is vital to your survival specifically. Running more mana is good, and you want at least 25 mana sources.
Dust Bowl > Wasteland. Dust Bowl can be used numerous times without Crucible under Standstill and is really good in the mirror.
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Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Interesting, I disagree with the counter-top idea, but I could be wrong. I have always followed the footing that countertop is made for aggresive decks that need the extra edge in a mirror or in games they need a softlock in order to prevail. As for landstill with countertop that seems like the completely wrong direction to go in. Thats why dreadstill was formulated.
25 mana sources is absolutely correct. I don't know how good crucible is in the 3 color mods, but I do know that in the four color mods its basicly been dropped and dif informed me that hed rather run another dragon over it for early game consistency/ win condition in the late game. I agree with this.
I dont like countertop also in landstill because it follows suite to what you already have against combo/ aggro. Your already kicking the crap out of both of them and the mere fact that you are adding 4 cards that may or may not be effective is kind of flush to me.
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Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Using the E-tutor toolbox you can play 3 tutors, drop the 2 wishes and leave 1 oblivion ring MD as an all-around solution. I think you should play standstill #4 and WoG #3. I've never been a fan of hoofprints (and now Krosan Grip is everywhere... :frown: ).
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Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Thanks for all the feedback !
@Jace : He has been from stellar to crap (although he's always FoW fodder).
With Standstill your opponent choose when you draw (even if the choice is sometime forced due to Soldier and Assembly worker beatdown) : EOT when you have 6+ cards in hand. It's ok and all 'cause it's card quality and quantity but they're prepared for it.
With jace (it's even better when you control the board with CB) you can generate CA overTime (ie better lateGame). The Epic Control used to run him with Meditate with some success I've eared...
Additionaly, Jace minors the 'on-the-top' drawback of the E.Tutors which is a big plus.
Sometimes I really want to draw into him, but with no way to tutor for the lone 1-of I do think the 4th Standstill is better, sadly.
With Jace gone, Moat is questionnable. And with Moat, Hoofprints (the K.Grip weakness is really revelant) and Conclave are, too.
@the 1-ofs : They weren't a problem cause they're part of the E.Tutor toolbox and are enought powered on their own to put your opponent in serious trouble (see Moat) and are rarely seen in multiples in your opening hand.
I agree they're occasionally the wrong answers at the wrong time so I must found which one is worth the slot. (Per example, 3 E.E is too much with 2-3 ways to tutor into them, so O.Ring//Shackles is an good option that up the 3cc slot for the CB//tutor engine...)
So it needs to be tweaked, and adapted depending of the Meta I suppose.
@DustBowl : I have yet to test the card. Sure it might be better than Wasteland without crucible, but you need to invest waaaay more mana into it, and it looks like it needs crucible for recurring the land sacc'ed, or am I misleading ?
@Cunning Wish : Why drop'em ?! Only because of the already present E.Tutor engine ?! E.Tutor can't get Dust to dust (even though O.Ring is nice vs opposing CB), nor Pulse, blasts and so-on.
I thought UWb 'WishStill' was a competitive archetype mainly due to the wishboard... amIwrong ?
I have no playtest session coming soon, so I'll continue with MWS but for know I concurr the list is overstretched and have some unconsistency issues.
I'll try to put some feedback on my own this week if work (and FableII) doesn't take all my time.
(sorry if my post is a bit messy or ununderstanding. With English not beeing my native language, my train of thoughts is not that easy to translate into)
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Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
I never said cunning wish is bad... i play 3 of them... however playing both a wishboard and a Etutor toolbox dilutes the deck too much imho... You're trying to have CB+Top, a wishboard and a maindeck toolbox; too many things, you risk to do everything badly... In my deck i have 3 wishes, 1 SB ET and no CB+Top; however i'm happy if somebody tests different approaches to the deck...:wink:
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Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lolosoon
@Cunning Wish : Why drop'em ?! Only because of the already present E.Tutor engine ?! E.Tutor can't get Dust to dust (even though O.Ring is nice vs opposing CB), nor Pulse, blasts and so-on.
I thought UWb 'WishStill' was a competitive archetype mainly due to the wishboard... amIwrong ?
Well, with the Cunning Wishes along with the Maindecked E. Tutors, both causing speed disadvantage and pulling the deck in too many directions, seems... no bueno. Also, having MD and SB bullets also takes up more space than you most likely want to, and running only one or the other is preferable to both (the exception being a E. Tutor in the side, I presume).
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Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
raharu
Well, with the Cunning Wishes along with the Maindecked E. Tutors, both causing speed disadvantage and pulling the deck in too many directions, seems... no bueno.
What? No! The point is to drop Humility turn 4, then sit on crappy things deplete your life until you can make a giant DoJ and just win. Having ETutor and Cunning Wishes only advance your game plan. Running ETutors also allow you to board in silver bullets.
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Also, having MD and SB bullets also takes up more space than you most likely want to, and running only one or the other is preferable to both (the exception being a E. Tutor in the side, I presume).
Just run generally versatile cards or just really powerful cards; Humility, EE, and Crucible come to mind. Nothing else more is needed, and we do, it's more than likely Top and Counterbalance.
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Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citrus-God
What? No! The point is to drop Humility turn 4, then sit on crappy things deplete your life until you can make a giant DoJ and just win. Having ETutor and Cunning Wishes only advance your game plan. Running ETutors also allow you to board in silver bullets.
Huh?
Also, boarding in bullets to tutor for seems kinda blah. I mean, what do you tutor for out of the board? Crypt? Whoops, to late. You really shouldn't board in more Humilities, they're MD cards... iDunno.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citrus-God
Quote:
Also, having MD and SB bullets also takes up more space than you most likely want to, and running only one or the other is preferable to both (the exception being a E. Tutor in the side, I presume).
Just run generally versatile cards or just really powerful cards; Humility, EE, and Crucible come to mind. Nothing else more is needed, and we do, it's more than likely Top and Counterbalance.
Again, huh? A bullet Oblivion Ring, a bullet Moat, only 2 EEs, only one CoW, and a bullet Shackles seems pretty dilute to me, all things considered. Having more ways to get Humility/ EE/ whatever is good, but not having enough to just draw them when you want them (i.e. not enough) isn't. Playing E. Tutor generally leads to some wtf choices, like singleton Oblivion Rings, curring EEs, and Oblivion Stone, amongst other things. Obviously Humility, EE, Crucible and whatnot are good, but it makes me wonder if just running more of them wouldn't be better...
Also, Runed Halo is nice to have as a bullet if you're running E. Tutor, but I really dislike MD bullets. I'd play more than one.
Cunning Wish, on the other hand, doesn't lead people to bad choices, isn't card-disadvantage, is compact, doesn't dilute the MD with bullets, and doesn't take a whole lot of room (3 slots MD and 2-4 slots in the board v. 5-8 slots in the MD, just counting bullets and tutors). Running E. Tutor in the 'board gives you access to more copies of Humility et al without exactly 'competing' with C. Wish directly. The issue of tempo and card-disadvantage is still prevalent, though :\
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Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
raharu
Huh?
Also, boarding in bullets to tutor for seems kinda blah. I mean, what do you tutor for out of the board? Crypt? Whoops, to late. You really shouldn't board in more Humilities, they're MD cards... iDunno.
You lose a Humility to Krosan Grip, you tutor up a new one; setting up Counterbalance? Hell ya!
As for silver bullets;
Counterbalance against combo
Null Rod against Affinity, combo
Story Circle against Thresh/Vial Goblins
Sphere of Law/Circle of Protection: Red against Dragon Stompy/Vial Goblins
Runed Halo vs. combo and Ichorid
Arcane Lab/Rule of Law vs. Combo
Pithing Needle vs. mirror match, Survival, Vial Goblins, other random things
E-Plagues vs. Ichorid, Vial Goblins
Seal of Cleansing vs. Dragon Stompy
Sacred Ground vs. 43 Land, Aggro Loam
I didnt mention Oblivion Ring here because it sucks against everything post-board.
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Again, huh? A bullet Oblivion Ring, a bullet Moat, only 2 EEs, only one CoW, and a bullet Shackles seems pretty dilute to me, all things considered. Having more ways to get Humility/ EE/ whatever is good, but not having enough to just draw them when you want them (i.e. not enough) isn't. Playing E. Tutor generally leads to some wtf choices, like singleton Oblivion Rings, curring EEs, and Oblivion Stone, amongst other things. Obviously Humility, EE, Crucible and whatnot are good, but it makes me wonder if just running more of them wouldn't be better...
Again, why the fuck would I endorse terrible cards like Moat and Oblivion Ring? I told him to cut those cards.
Humility = Bomb
They counter it, you tutor up another one.
EE = versatility
you tutor it up to blow random shit up.
Crucible = mana stabilization
you tutor it because your mana base is fucking horrendous sometimes and being able to get WW simply by playing an Enlighten Tutor is kinda awesome.
Besides that, you can tutor up a win condition when you have Humility established.
Counterbalance = Bomb vs. Combo, Bomb vs. Threshold.
You tutor this up because you happen to have a piece of the countertop combo, or because Counterbalance is just decent against combo.
Nothing more though. And I never said anything else more.
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Also, Runed Halo is nice to have as a bullet if you're running E. Tutor, but I really dislike MD bullets. I'd play more than one.
Who said anything about MD bullets? Humility is a pretty awesome one because it's a creature format. EE is just versatile. Why would you need more flexible answers; you run ETutor because it's a good post-board card.
When I play ETutor, I tend to play it like ATS; you use Enlighten Tutor to find the card that advances your game plan only (Survival of the Fittest, or in this case, Humility), then silver bullets out of the Sideboard.
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Cunning Wish, on the other hand, doesn't lead people to bad choices, isn't card-disadvantage, is compact, doesn't dilute the MD with bullets, and doesn't take a whole lot of room (3 slots MD and 2-4 slots in the board v. 5-8 slots in the MD, just counting bullets and tutors).
Again, I never said that when I run ETutor, I want to run maindeck silver bullets. Also, Cunning Wish sometimes, sucks, because it takes up your Sideboard space. Playing Cunning Wish against combo compared to ETutor sucks because Cunning Wish only gets you Extirpate. Like that ends the game. ETutor can get you a wide array of silver bullets and by playing multiples, you will force them into eventually overextending turns and resources to answer your bullets thus taking you into a later stage of the game giving you inevitability.
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Running E. Tutor in the 'board gives you access to more copies of Humility et al without exactly 'competing' with C. Wish directly.
Humilities are important, but they arent the main reason to run ETutor. The reason to run ETutor is to be able to execute your game plan properly Game 1, and still be able to maneuver Post-Board without running too many narrow cards in a deck with a wish board present to help you, such as a playset of 4 Hydroblasts and/or Meddling Mages which of course not only offers you raw power but also versatility. The trade-off is the card disadvantage. Of course, if you're already being able to move into midgame which is where your deck has inevitability, then the card disadvantage doesnt matter because by then, your silver bullet stalled for enough time to make the quality of the cards in your hand superior to your opponents and you have the most land drops.
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The issue of tempo and card-disadvantage is still prevalent, though :\
I'll say this over and over again; Etutor = Doesnt sink much tempo, card quality can be better than card advantage if that card quality used is to advance your game plan. This this case, you have even more ways of advancing your Academy Ruins lock, Crucible lock, and/or just plain Humility resolution.
Cunning Wish is good at doing those things too, but you need more mana to be able to do those things. Also, being able to dodge discard and play around Daze is nice, and ETutor can get around those cards.
Cunning Wish is only for the card advantage spot, but again, when we cast Cunning Wish, being able to resolve Humility pre-board against Thresh is much more important then just casting Extirpate to remove 4 Thresh guys from the game. If we're going to cast Humility, then just running ETutor would just be as efficient.
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Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
I agree with all that, I just don't agree with the typical "E. Tutor + singleton bullets" theory. Extra copies of Humility? Yes please. Extra copies of EE? Fuck yeah. More Crucibles? Who doesn't like consistent land drops for infinity? But other crap doesn't make me go :D quite so much.
Looking at that list:
Counterbalance against combo- sure, but is that with or without Top?
Null Rod against Affinity, combo- really?
Story Circle against Thresh/Vial Goblins- or just Argo in general, good call.
Sphere of Law/Circle of Protection: Red against Dragon Stompy/Vial Goblins- Errr, why not just Story Circle if it's a Goblins Problem? Or E. Plague? Or Propaganda? Or, you know, Humility? Also, wouldn't you rather board in 4x BEB? I guess then you start to look at boarding plans and whatnot to see if there's even space.
Runed Halo vs. combo and Ichorid- Why Ichorid? Against the Ichorids themselves? Sounds like a... rather bad investment. iDunno. I like the Halos, but not against Ichorid. Maybe I'm an idiot.
Arcane Lab/Rule of Law vs. Combo- Counterbalance is better
Pithing Needle vs. mirror match, Survival, Vial Goblins, other random things- Yeah, but again, as a bullet or more than one?
E-Plagues vs. Ichorid, Vial Goblins- rite, but is that a singleton or 4x in the board?
Seal of Cleansing vs. Dragon Stompy- Maybe. It's better than nothing, I guess.
Sacred Ground vs. 43 Land, Aggro Loam- and 'Geddon Stax et al. I might like Crucible better, though.
In general it just seems like you were stretching for cards to use with E. Tutor. Humility, EE, Crucible, Counterbalance, Pithing Needles, and maybe Halos are the only cards I could see using, and most likely none of them as singletons. And Seal, if I'm worried about Dragon Stompy, but I'd be more prone to run Oblivion Rings than Seals.
But focusing on Counterbalance, I assume you would use Top as well, so that begs the question: do you run SDT in the main? If so, how many? If not, why? Are you playing Counterbalance main? etc.
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Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
raharu
I agree with all that, I just don't agree with the typical "E. Tutor + singleton bullets" theory. Extra copies of Humility? Yes please. Extra copies of EE? Fuck yeah. More Crucibles? Who doesn't like consistent land drops for infinity? But other crap doesn't make me go :D quite so much.
Like I said; in the maindeck, all you need are those cards.
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Counterbalance against combo- sure, but is that with or without Top?
Usually, you have to tutor Counterbalance up first. You do this because as long as you flip over a land, they cant play Moxes or LEDs. This buys you time to do other things. Sadly, you're destined to lose pre-board anyways. Post-board is where tutoring for Counterbalance becomes a more sensible maneuver to make.
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Null Rod against Affinity, combo- really?
I assumed you've never made Top against FT before. Also, TES lives off of 4 Petals, 4 LEDs, and 3-4 Moxes. It would make sense here too, considering it's 20% of their deck and 50% of their mana.
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Story Circle against Thresh/Vial Goblins- or just Argo in general, good call.
I forgot to mention Dragon Stompy as well.
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Sphere of Law/Circle of Protection: Red against Dragon Stompy/Vial Goblins- Errr, why not just Story Circle if it's a Goblins Problem? Or E. Plague? Or Propaganda? Or, you know, Humility? Also, wouldn't you rather board in 4x BEB? I guess then you start to look at boarding plans and whatnot to see if there's even space.
Circle of Protection: Red gets around Blood Moon because the cost is one colorless.
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Runed Halo vs. combo and Ichorid- Why Ichorid? Against the Ichorids themselves? Sounds like a... rather bad investment. iDunno. I like the Halos, but not against Ichorid. Maybe I'm an idiot.
They're alright. They're meant to only be cast against Ichorids or Tendrils of Agony usually. You can board this in against Thresh if you're boarding Story Circle in.
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Arcane Lab/Rule of Law vs. Combo- Counterbalance is better
CounterbalanceTop is a combo, therefore they need to be assembled in order to be effectively used; Rule of Law can just be tutored up. Once you establish Rule of Law, you go for CounterbalanceTop to protect Rule of Law.
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Pithing Needle vs. mirror match, Survival, Vial Goblins, other random things- Yeah, but again, as a bullet or more than one?
Silver Bullet. Academy Ruins recurs Needle, so you probably wont need more.
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E-Plagues vs. Ichorid, Vial Goblins- rite, but is that a singleton or 4x in the board?
1-2-of. You run ETutors, remember?
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Sacred Ground vs. 43 Land, Aggro Loam- and 'Geddon Stax et al. I might like Crucible better, though.
Crucible can be Powder Keged away. Also, you can still make land drops if Sacred Ground is active.
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In general it just seems like you were stretching for cards to use with E. Tutor. Humility, EE, Crucible, Counterbalance, Pithing Needles, and maybe Halos are the only cards I could see using, and most likely none of them as singletons. And Seal, if I'm worried about Dragon Stompy, but I'd be more prone to run Oblivion Rings than Seals.
Story Circle, Rule of Law, Null Rod, Planar Void, Sacred Ground. Also, Teferi's Moat and Nether Void may become new SB options.
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But focusing on Counterbalance, I assume you would use Top as well, so that begs the question: do you run SDT in the main? If so, how many? If not, why? Are you playing Counterbalance main? etc.
My list?
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// Lands
1 [A] Underground Sea
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [R] Tundra
2 [LRW] Plains (3)
2 [9E] Island (1)
1 [B] Scrubland
1 [B] Tropical Island
1 [A] Savannah
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
// Creatures
2 [SC] Eternal Dragon
// Spells
4 [U] Swords to Plowshares
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
4 [A] Counterspell
2 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [TE] Humility
2 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [MR] Rule of Law
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [10E] Story Circle
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [IN] Teferi's Moat
SB: 1 [WL] Null Rod
SB: 1 [US] Planar Void
SB: 1 [8E] Sacred Ground
SB: 1 [5E] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 [SHM] Runed Halo
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
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Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citrus-God
// Lands
1 [A] Underground Sea
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [R] Tundra
2 [LRW] Plains (3)
2 [9E] Island (1)
1 [B] Scrubland
1 [B] Tropical Island
1 [A] Savannah
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
// Creatures
2 [SC] Eternal Dragon
// Spells
4 [U] Swords to Plowshares
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
4 [A] Counterspell
2 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [TE] Humility
2 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [MR] Rule of Law
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [10E] Story Circle
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [IN] Teferi's Moat
SB: 1 [WL] Null Rod
SB: 1 [US] Planar Void
SB: 1 [8E] Sacred Ground
SB: 1 [5E] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 [SHM] Runed Halo
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
The list looks good... I just want to know, why all the two ofs?
It seems like the deck is a little out of focus, and needs a bit more time so as to round out some of the numbers.
Also, the whole point of the black splash is extirpate... then why only 1 in the board? I understand that you also have planar void, but that still is only 2 GY hate cards... I would like to see your thoughts on this, b/c I am seeing lots of loam in my meta.
The CB/top was sexy, although I think I would play the CBs in the board, adding in a few more removal spells that you could take out for the combo MU.
The list looks great though, and I will have to test it. :wink:
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Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
thefreakaccident
The list looks good... I just want to know, why all the two ofs?
The midgame technically isn't late game. The 2-ofs help here. DoJ is for the late game, Cunning Wish is for the midgame, the Humilities are ftw, and the ETutors turns everything into a playset.
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It seems like the deck is a little out of focus, and needs a bit more time so as to round out some of the numbers.
It truly does need more time. So far, the deck seems somewhat perfect thus far. The Sideboard at the moment, however, is extremely questionable.
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Also, the whole point of the black splash is extirpate... then why only 1 in the board? I understand that you also have planar void, but that still is only 2 GY hate cards... I would like to see your thoughts on this, b/c I am seeing lots of loam in my meta.
EE. Also, http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dgbs8px8_0grhzd6dg, two black sources just to run EE and Extirpate.
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The CB/top was sexy, although I think I would play the CBs in the board, adding in a few more removal spells that you could take out for the combo MU.
1 Counterbalance is fine. So far, nothing feels clogged, and nothing feels out of place. Every single card does something, and the ETutors becomes something useful depending on the phases that are taking place within the game.
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Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
@Citrus-God:
I find the idea of an E.T. toolbox-delux fancy. tbh though, even mediocre combo decks are going to feast on your soul if all SB hate you're putting in their way is 1 Halo and 1 Rule of Law (even if you ran 12 E.T.s).
Seriously, I've had trouble beating combo (FT, Solidarity) with 4 Meddling Magi and 2 Runed Halo (1 E.T., 1 Halo main). Also, I still consider Meddling Mage the #1 combo hoser.
Klaus
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Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
I'm not sure if I agree or disagree with soul feasting as he runs countertop, but I don't see how hes get them consistently early enough then wish for something of relevance. I have REALLY come to appreciate meddling mage, and I think it could be a mistake not to run it.
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Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
-EDITED-
I've done some testing on Vindicates and they're..well, really good. I still doubt they're enough to replace WoG entirely, which is why I added 2 Edicts to the MB. Testing will tell, whether my changes to the officially agreed upon core list marks an improvement or not..
Browsing the webs for inspiration and structuring some brainfarts, I came to the following list (beware: no WoG, no Cunning Wish o0):
Uwb Landstill_5.0
4 Standstill
4 STP
4 BS
4 FOW
2 CS
3 Spellsnare.................the CS Snare split seems aight to me.
1 Ponder
3 Vindicate...................multi-purpose thing, pseudo-WoG
3 EE
2 Humility
2 Decree of Justice
1 Elspeth
1 Crucible
2 Smother.........................making up for the lack of WoG
(36)
1 Dustbowl
6 Fetch
3 Sea......................I cut the 4th Tundra in favor of the 3rd Sea
1 Scrub
3 Tundra
2 Plains
2 Island
4 Factory
1 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins
(24)
SB
3 Mage
2 Halo
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Engineered Plague
2 Relic of Progenitus....I've done little testing with it. Sofar it rocks.
2 Extirpate
3 BEB
1 Wrath of God
Let me know what you think.
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Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Yesmilord
Hey awesome report.
Is there anything you would change to your list?
Would the inclusion of B have changed your results?
(also, what were your SB strategies?)
Against meathooks I boarded out standstill and boarded in meddling mage + e tutor to find humility, because game 1 I played EE at 2 three times and wrath once and lost to hiberation sliver.
Against red thresh, I boarded in runed halo for wrath and ajani for krosan grip (he didn't show counterbalance).
Against dreadstill, I boarded in ajani/crucible just to give me more win conditions. All you have to do in this matchup is force them to play threats. They can't recur their man lands, so you sit under humility and decree when they are tapped out.
Against goblins, He smashed me game 1 like it's supposed to happen. I boarded in runed halo and boarded out my krosan grips. Runed halo on piledriver and sgc can win you the game. Game 3, I boarded in ajani for ee because I felt wrath and swords was enough to win it for me. Game 3, I drew of hand of wog, wog, humility, humility, land, land, land. I thought to myself, "Man I should play with my hand on the table," so I did.
Against Tombstalker, I boarded out eternal dragon for ajani for a better win condition. I swung with an 18/18 vigilance guy game 2.
Against Survival, I board out force, counterspell, standstill for ajani, meddling mage, krosan grip, runed halo. Don't ask me why, I have no board stragety for survival and wished pithing needle was there to be my savior. I did get my opponent to 6 twice using only a single mishra's factory and 3 swords in my opening hand.
I really wish I had pithing needle in the board. I think I could have won the meathooks matchup if I could land a needle on hibernation sliver and actually kill his guys with wrath/ee. Now that I think about it, needle on hiberation sliver doesn't help me in that matchup, maybe I need wrath of god with split second, anyone have some I can buy?
This is an addition post to my Grid top 8 one page back. I hope this helps.
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Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
klaus
@Citrus-God:
I still consider Meddling Mage the #1 combo hoser.
Meddling Mage and Runed Halo are tied in my book for first. Both are extremely solid and versatile which is why I run each as a 3-of in my side board. Game one against combo it will come down to if you have the force or not.
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Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
klaus
@Citrus-God:
I find the idea of an E.T. toolbox-delux fancy. tbh though, even mediocre combo decks are going to feast on your soul if all SB hate you're putting in their way is 1 Halo and 1 Rule of Law (even if you ran 12 E.T.s).
Seriously, I've had trouble beating combo (FT, Solidarity) with 4 Meddling Magi and 2 Runed Halo (1 E.T., 1 Halo main). Also, I still consider Meddling Mage the #1 combo hoser.
Klaus
Again, same thing... Create some kind of lock thing. But if you guys feel that Meddling Mages are the beez-kneez against Combo, just take out four silver bullets from my Sideboard and replace them in there with Mages.
@mossivo1986: You should be boarding in other things as well; Needles for Top, Null Rod for mana sources, Rule of Law, Runed Halo... and such.
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Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rockout
I really wish I had pithing needle in the board. I think I could have won the meathooks matchup if I could land a needle on hibernation sliver and actually kill his guys with wrath/ee. Now that I think about it, needle on hiberation sliver doesn't help me in that matchup, maybe I need wrath of god with split second, anyone have some I can buy?
Pithing Needle does few against Hibernation Sliver, beacuse all the other Slivers named Crystaline, Sinew,... have the hability itself. Sure Hibernation will die, but all the other won't.
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Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
klaus
I've done some testing on Vindicates and they're..well, really good. I still doubt they're enough to replace WoG entirely, which is why I added 2 Edicts to the MB. Testing will tell, whether my changes to the officially agreed upon core list marks an improvement or not..
Browsing the webs for inspiration and structuring some brainfarts, I came to the following list:
Uwb Landstill_5.0
4 Standstill
4 STP
4 BS
4 FOW
2 CS
3 Spellsnare.................the CS Snare split seems aight to me.
1 Ponder
3 Vindicate...................multi-purpose thing, pseudo-WoG
2 EE.............................probably should be 3 without WoG?
2 Humility
3 Decree of Justice........considered Elspeth, she needs testing though. Note: Decree enjoys WoG being gone.
1 Crucible
1 Enlightened Tutor........alongside ET#2 (SB) creates a mini toolbox
2 Edict.........................making up for the lack of WoG
(36)
1 Dustbowl
6 Fetch
3 Sea......................I cut the 4th Tundra in favor of the 3rd Sea
1 Scrub
3 Tundra
2 Plains
2 Island
4 Factory
1 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins
(24)
SB
4 Mage
1 Halo........................should suffice with 2 ETs
1 Extirpate
2 Relic of Progenitus....I've done little testing with it. Sofar it rocks.
1 Engineered Plague....again. Toolbox.
3 BEB
1 Pithing Needle..........I know. You don't get to see many Needles in LS SBs these days but it's simply one of the best SB cards out there (there are like 100+ good targets) Since I dropped the wish board I have the room to add it as a 1-of.
1 Enlightened Tutor........ Citrus God would agree. hehe.
1 Serenity (?)...............yeah humm. I like it? :smile:
Let me know what you think.
Wouldn't be Smother the better Edict?
Elspeth imo should replace one Decree.
I dislike the E.Tutor in the Mainboard, it could be the third Explosive.
My 2 cents
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Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Elric
Wouldn't be Smother the better Edict?
Elspeth imo should replace one Decree.
I dislike the E.Tutor in the Mainboard, it could be the third Explosive.
Agreed.
Agreed.
Sort of agreed.
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Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
klaus
Agreed.
Agreed.
Sort of agreed.
I don't know about the espeth comment as I havent seen it in action, but the theory behind it makes it worth playing as a 2 of and doj as a 2 of just because its doj.
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Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DuKeLiO
Pithing Needle does few against Hibernation Sliver, beacuse all the other Slivers named Crystaline, Sinew,... have the hability itself. Sure Hibernation will die, but all the other won't.
I realized that as I posted it. I should have gone back and changed so I would look like a retard.
I meant to pithning needle for the survival matchup as well, but forgot.
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Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
I´m planning on playing Uwb Ls at the two Sideevents of PT Berlin(because I always play LS) and I want to share my list with you:
// Lands
1 [R] Scrubland
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
2 [OV] Plains
1 [U] Underground Sea
3 [UG] Island
4 [A] Tundra
// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon
// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
4 [AT] Swords to Plowshares
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [TE] Humility
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [REW] Wrath of God
2 [6E] Counterspell
1 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [TSP] Return to Dust
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 4 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [CS] Counterbalance
Some explanations: Elspeth is just t3h nutz. He starts winning when the board is empty and continues not loosing when the Opp has got some pressure there. The lonely top is never useless but shines against Decks where you bring in Balance+Tutor like ANT. I expect a lot of AN because of the Hype, but I´m wondering if balance does the job well enough...
Any suggestions?
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Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Please post a tournament report NQN about your side event. I really like your list. Seems a little packed with 1-ofs, but seems effective nonetheless.
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Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
@NQN:
Even with ET (takes too long to set it up) a singleton Top is not enough to run this disruption package successfully. I figure oftentimes you'll find yourself with a topless (:wink:) CB that just doesn't do its job properly.
On a different note: 4 BEB? I figure Burn can be a pain - but that's when Wish->P.O.T.fields comes in.
I like Relic, too but cutting 1 for a wishable Extirpate seems smart nonetheless.
Remember Extirpate is one of the main reasons the whole Wish thing was established.
Hope that helps.
Klaus
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Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Well, you only have 2 Cunning Wishes and the R/x Beatz matchup is always really close postboard->Without a Wish we usually loose. Blue Blast are so versatile. They come in against any R/x Deck, Goblins and Dragon Stompy. I like multifunctional cards. Thats why I play a Playset. Thats the only SB card which stayed a long time there now. Extirpate isn´t that great anymore, I actually never wish for it. I think cutting it isn´t that bad because against loam&Ichorid Relic is better and I never lost the Mirror until today (you know, eternal players in germany...). Maybe that Counterbalance thing wasn´t that great and I should just try to ignore ANT. What about those changes:
MD
- Top
+Counterspell
SB
-4 CB
-1 Blue Blast/E.Tutor
+3 Meddling mage
+2 Ajani
Greetz,
NQN
PS: Looking forward to meet you in Berlin, Klaus ;)
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Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NQN
- Top
+Counterspell
SB
-4 CB
-1 Blue Blast/E.Tutor
+3 Meddling mage
+2 Ajani
Me liky :)
-2 Ajani.....................don't forget Ajani is the POTfields of non-Wish-LS.dec
+1 Pulse of the Fields
+1 M.Mage (=4)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NQN
PS: Looking forward to meet you in Berlin, Klaus ;)
Dito!
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Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Why would you play a second PoTf instead of Ajani`? Ajani shines against Loam&Control too. I don´t really get that step ;)
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Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NQN
Why would you play a second PoTf instead of Ajani`? Ajani shines against Loam&Control too. I don´t really get that step ;)
Slight misunderstanding.
It's actually only 1 POTfields or 2 Ajanis (..in a non-Wish version).
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Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Only 1 PotFields seems too random for a no-Wish build. You have to get lucky for have it quickly against burn or Tarmosligh. So I prefer to play Cunning Wish maindeck, or play redundant copies of Ajani or Pulse in the sideboard. Ajani is better for this use, beacuse it is more versatile.
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Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NQN
I´m planning on playing Uwb Ls at the two Sideevents of PT Berlin(because I always play LS) and I want to share my list with you:
// Lands
1 [R] Scrubland
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
2 [OV] Plains
1 [U] Underground Sea
3 [UG] Island
4 [A] Tundra
// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon
// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
4 [AT] Swords to Plowshares
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [TE] Humility
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [REW] Wrath of God
2 [6E] Counterspell
1 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [TSP] Return to Dust
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 4 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [CS] Counterbalance
Some explanations: Elspeth is just t3h nutz. He starts winning when the board is empty and continues not loosing when the Opp has got some pressure there. The lonely top is never useless but shines against Decks where you bring in Balance+Tutor like ANT. I expect a lot of AN because of the Hype, but I´m wondering if balance does the job well enough...
Any suggestions?
Been running a similar MD since i put up this deck last year, made many changes and always got back to this, i can't help it. Some differences (could be meta calls):
-1 island +1 sea (i think i'll cut the 4th tundra for the 3rd island)
-1 top + 1 counterspell
-1 explo + 1 nevynirral's disk (always needed a mass destruction engine, first i used akroma's vengeance, but disk is recurrable and, if elspeth remains long enough, it's indistructible too. and since the destruction of the disk is not a cost but and effect...we sometimes have the chance to have an every-turn-board-sweeper)
+e tutor as 61st card (this tutor replaces the 3rd wish. in fact, diminishing the number of instants in the board -for mage and halo, due to relevant increasing of combo decks- has brought me to reduce the number of the wishes).
The sb (note that there's no relevant presence of aggro loam) looks like:
1 Potf
1 beb
3 extirpate (should i consider relic? are they good in mirror mathces? does they rock against 3sh? are they worth to replace extirpate in side, if combo spread?)
1 tormod's crypt (e-tutorable: still not convinced to substite it with relic)
1 e tutor (the second, to board in in case of necessity, and whishable)
1 aegis of honor
1 cop red
1 plague (aegis + cop to escape needle against burn, plagye + cop against goblins)
3 mage
2 halo
Suggestions?
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Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NQN
I´m planning on playing Uwb Ls at the two Sideevents of PT Berlin(because I always play LS) and I want to share my list with you:
// Lands
1 [R] Scrubland
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
2 [OV] Plains
1 [U] Underground Sea
3 [UG] Island
4 [A] Tundra
// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon
// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
4 [AT] Swords to Plowshares
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [TE] Humility
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [REW] Wrath of God
2 [6E] Counterspell
1 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [TSP] Return to Dust
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 4 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [CS] Counterbalance
Some explanations: Elspeth is just t3h nutz. He starts winning when the board is empty and continues not loosing when the Opp has got some pressure there. The lonely top is never useless but shines against Decks where you bring in Balance+Tutor like ANT. I expect a lot of AN because of the Hype, but I´m wondering if balance does the job well enough...
Any suggestions?
Funny, why are you playing black manasources at all? Black got watered down to 0 in your build. And Extirpate was a vital card for the wishboard to win resource-wars against other control-decks and/or aggrocontrol..
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Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Adan
Funny, why are you playing black manasources at all? Black got watered down to 0 in your build. And Extirpate was a vital card for the wishboard to win resource-wars against other control-decks and/or aggrocontrol..
Engineered Explosives? It could be any color, I guess.
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Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
@DuKeLiO,
What you said was exactly what Klaus meant. Just to point it out.
Anyways, how has Elspeth been doing for everyone? Is the split between 2 DoJ and 1 Elspeth good now? For me, I still run WoG so Elspeth seems to be good, but how about for builds that run vindicate instead of WoG (like Klaus')?
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Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
I run a 2 DoJ 2 Elspeth split because I was lucky enough to rip one the night before the Hadley in a draft. I didn't cycle decree the entire tournament because Elspeth would come down t4ish and speed up my fairly slow clock. I run 2 WoG main deck and 1 sideboard. It seems to work out just fine. The -8 ability on Elspeth may not seem relevant but in long matches it is a huge breaker in an already solid late game deck.
I run UWg with 2 main deck krosan grip and 1 sb krosan grip.
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Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Well now, I played the following list at the first Sidevent of PT Berlin and went 4-3 which isn´t worth any report at all:
// NAME: uwbcunninglandstill
// Lands
1 [R] Scrubland
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
2 [OV] Plains
1 [U] Underground Sea
3 [UG] Island
4 [A] Tundra
// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon
// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
4 [AT] Swords to Plowshares
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [TE] Humility
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [REW] Wrath of God
3 [6E] Counterspell
1 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [TSP] Return to Dust
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 3 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
I´ll just shortly sumup my matchups and why I lost/won them
R1: Rock - BYE 2-0
R2: Forgot 2-0
R3: "Klaus" with Urw Dreadstill - close match, crucible won both games 2-1
(Best match of the day/tournament for me)
R4: R/w Goblins 1-2 Lost g2 because of missing spotremoval and g3 because of colourscrew after some mulligans.
R5: Survival - BYE 2-0
R6: Ichorid 1-2 G1 is obv, g2 I have 4 Relics and g3 he has Unmask for Tutor, Needle for EE and a turn ~5 kill with me drawing more lands from the top.
R7: Might Quinn - Autoloss 0-2 He just has every of my wincons twice or often.
At the 113 Player tourney at Saturday a friend and I switched our decks so that I played Rgw Zoo and he landstill. I finished 12. with 6-2. How bad is this deck? I just got bad matchups and mirrors. I once lost to burrenton forge tender with nomadn en kor >.<
Well, to sum up:
Props
- Meet a lot of really cool people
- Got about 10 asian cards for landstill
- drunken girls at our hostel
- 2 germans top8 at the mainevent
- Zoo performing better than landstill
- Klaus for winning 30 duals
Slops:
-Ichorid,Quinn and Goblins for beeing asshole decks ;)
- The site for beeing to small
- Zoo
- Klaus for NOT playing the "Win a trip to worlds" Sealed which was 4free!
Greetings,
NQN
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Re: [DTW] UW(x) Landstill
This is the list I ran at the last Hadley Event:
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [UNH] Plains
3 [B] Tundra
3 [TE] Wasteland
2 [UNH] Island
2 [B] Tropical Island
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
1 [B] Savannah
// Creatures
2 [PR] Eternal Dragon
// Spells
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
4 [FNM] Counterspell
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [PT] Wrath of God
2 [FNM] Fact or Fiction
2 [TE] Humility
2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
2 [ALA] Elspeth Knight-Errant
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [PT] Wrath of God
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 3 [JGC] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [SHM] Runed Halo
SB: 1 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 2 [FNM] Tormod's Crypt
I got smashed by Goblins. Hands down smashed. Even post board with Runed Halo and Ajani, granted I never saw four mana in any of my goblin matchups, wasteland ftl. I'll have to add 4x Blue Elemental Blasts for The Mana Leak at the end of the month.
I need help to find a way to either add more blue cards to the main deck or find a better answer than Fact or Fiction (I know, I know). The deck plays so well all the time. I was able to beat Dragonstompy G2 and G3 at Hadley, but scrubbed out losing to two straight goblin decks match 5 and 6. I lost a game with 3x Mishra's Factory and 1x Academy Ruins with all four Brainstorms in my hand. Help me clean up my main board and sideboard. Any advice will help.
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Re: [DTW] UW(x) Landstill
Cut Crucibles and the Tormod's Crypts for 3-4 Relic of Progenitus. I'd say turn the SB into
1 Krosan Grip
2 Ajani Goldmane
3 Runed Halo
3 Meddling Mage
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Hydroblast
If you think about it, every match-up you board Crucible of Worlds in against, you're also boarding Ajani in. The other difference is that Ajani is doing more than Crucible because instead of trying to develop your position you're winning. Also, Avatar tokens are bad ass, and they beat the shit out of Aggro Loam.
Relic is awesome. It nurfs Goyfs and kills Terravores. Also, against Thresh, you don't have to board Humilities out anymore; just board in Halos and Relics and make their Krosan Grips look bad. As the game drags on, the better chance you have of winning because DoJ is just that good. So drop those Halos and Relics and EEs and Humilities and make the whole board gummed up.
Also, WoGs are looking worse and worse. Gaddock Teeg is going to do some damage on you. Which is why Grip, Swords, Halo, Relic, and others are so good.
