It is standard to play 2. I'm vehemently against cutting any. I'm playing 2.
My list is also in my signature :)
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It is standard to play 2. I'm vehemently against cutting any. I'm playing 2.
My list is also in my signature :)
Thanks - a bit different than I'm currently running. I'll give yours a go at our next weekly though.Quote:
Originally Posted by apocolyps6
This is a good way to put things :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by apocolyps6
Those 3 components make a pretty good description of how I feel. I've struggled much more just recently with mana/color issues than I have at the GP, by forcing the deck to do all three. I agree that Liliana never seems good, I wasn't impressed with her (but a neccesity against things like TNN, but I'm getting less impressed with the DD Combo because of how strained the mana becomes. I also feel like I really want DRS back as a GSZ target.
With having only 1 Library right now, I'm highly considering (considering as in I dont know if I'll be playing much legacy at all before February) cutting the 3 Lilis for Library2/Painful Truths, a DRS, and possibly something crazy like having a Golgari Charm (or an edict effect, something that has utility but is a MD answer against TNN and other hard threats against the grindier blue decks such as Shardless and Blade)
@dmkay: Sweet. Let me/us know how it goes.
@Nocley: If you cut lili your mana should not be strained by Stage-Depths. Try playing some games without her and see if you still have problems. It helps to think of any non-mana source as a spell for cards like Maze and DD.
Are people still playing TNN against you? For me it is not too common. When it is, I just answer it with a threat. Basically all of our threats (Knight, Pridemage, often scooze, any manland) race him. TNN was originally why I started playing 3 gsz, more green creatures and Stage-Depths, as the little Progenitus is only really good when we have a slow/clunky opening.
Also: 2 Toxic Deluge in the board has been awesome
Have a good Christmas(or other variant) you knightly bastards!
Fucking Burn...
Hey folks,
could anyone update the primer? This one is from the medievil & has nothing to do with the list from nowadays...Would be great!
I'm asking because I need some boarding help...
I tried to convince niklas but he does not have the time. If anyone feels competent enough to do it I could give a handQuote:
Originally Posted by Manipulato
What's your list and what matchups do you need help boarding with? I'm sure plenty of us will chime in with how we would typically board :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Manipulato
That's my list...Quote:
Originally Posted by dmkay
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Life from the Loam
2 Green Suns Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Badland
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Barren Moor
1 Thranquill Thicket
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
Sideboard:
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Containment Priest
2 Choke
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Garruk, Relentless
1 Ajani Vengeante
Would be interested for the Delver (Grixis & TA), Miracles, Shardless BUG MU's.
Question is the right split about cycle lands analyzing your mana base:
You have:Quote:
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Badland
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Barren Moor
1 Thranquill Thicket
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
7 sources of green mana (one of them is arbor, 3 are Grove) + 6 fetchlands + 1 tapland (cycle land itself)
2 sources of black mana + 6 fetchlands + 2 taplands (2 cycle lands itself)
what is the reason to split 2 Barren Moor / 1 Tranquill Thicket does this split smooth black source, or functional as cycle land ?
@Manipulato
Goona give you my boarding plans from head.
Miracles
-1 Ooze
-2 Pfire
-1 Life from the Loam
-2 Mox Diamond
-1 Maze of Ith
-???
+2 Thalia
+2 Choke
+1 Maelstrom Pulse
+1 Reclamation Sage
+1 Garruk, Relentless
+1 Ajani Vengeante
Shardless
-3 Chalice
-2 Mox Diamond
-1 Gaddock Teeg
-1 ???
+2 Toxic Deluge
+2 Choke(Maybe only 1)
+1 Pulse
+1 Garruk, Relentless
+1 Ajani Vengeante
Grixis Delver
-1 Gaddock Teeg
-2 GSZ
-1 Liliana
+2 Thalia
+2 Toxic Deluge
@Fatal
It kinda smooths your black mana for when you need to drop the tap land.
Against shardless you should bring in reclamation sage as well. It's nice to be able to tutor him up and get rid of a baleful strix or shardless agent w/ a body attached.
I don't think chokes are necessary against shardless. Agree mostly w/ Pilhas' sideboarding otherwise: +reclamation sage and leave 2 chalices instead of 1 to replace the 2 chokes. 1 might be fine, but you can out-grind shardless w/out resorting to the chokes really. Throwing down a chalice on 0 the turn before visions comes online is good times. But again, its not even really a huge deal. You can out-grind. Maybe the choke is just better. Play around w/ both options.
Against delver I don't think the thalia's are too necessary. I'd rather have the GSZs to ramp into my dryad arbor or deathrite. I don't side much against delver matchups, I feel like the maindeck is already great.
About the Miracles boarding plan...Till now I always cuted both Loam because I dont see why we should leave in any copie, our manabase is safe because they play no mana denial such as Wasteland, our Wasteland lock is quite useless because they have so many basics and we have only 3 cycle lands for the loam, so not really helpful...Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilhas
I think cutting 2-3 Mox Diamonds is absolutley fine but I´m afraid of Blood Moon from the SB and the moxes are our only way to fight through it because we only have 1 Forest as a basic, I´m a bit unsure about that but cutting 2 Moxes should be fine, yes...
I´m also unsure about Scavenging Ooze, I mean yes the most creatures get exiled or go under the library but he´s solid against Snapy and he´s another beater (Which we have not that many)...
I boarded like this:
- 2 Life from the Loam
- 2 Mox Diamonds
- 1 Maze of Ith
- 1 Punishing Fire
- 1 Wasteland
- the 3rd Mox, the 1 Ooze, a 2nd Wasteland, or 2nd P.Fire???
+ the stuff your said
Against Shardless I boarded like this...
- 2 Mox Diamonds
- 2 Chalice of the Void
- 1 Gaddock Teeg
+ 2 Choke
+ 1 Garruk
+ 1 Ajani
+ 1 Maelstrom Pulse
I´m not convinced with boarding in 2 Deluge...I mean they have not that many creatures and our removal package is already strong against them, especially the P.Fire combo which kills everything exept for Goyf...
I have a problem with Thalia against Delver decks and things like Shardless in general, the taxing effect is super against those decks but does it really not disturb our own gameplan? We´re not DnT or Maverick, we play waay more spells than creatures and if we dont have a fast Mox opening Thalia hits us as well like the opponent.
I´m really unsure here...
Against Grixis I think I wanna bring in the Maelstrom Pulse because it handles the Gurmag Angler which is they´re best creature against us and handles YP tokens if he gets out of control (Which should not happen but never know...). I see boarding like you but how I said before the Thalia thing is something which I´m a bit unsure, how was your experience with her? But as said earlier the MD is already super strong against them...
Scavenging Ooze vs Miracles: Have you ever activated it to blank a snapcaster? Has anyone?
It would be nice if it were to happen, but the miracles player could just wait to use snapcaster until scooze is dead, meanwhile we have to keep up at least 1 green mana ever turn.
The opponent might board in RIP or relic, not a huge deal but something to consider.
But let's say you have had success doing with scooze 1 and now do not want to board it out. Look at the list of cards you want to board in. Is scooze better than any of them on average?
This matchup is one where we take out decent cards for amazing ones, so you will always have the feel-bad of cutting cards that are live in the matchup.
Life from the Loam vs Miracles:
Lands find their way to our yard. We play fetches, cycles, and Miracles plays non-basics so we can sometimes use our wastelands too. Getting to make land drops in the control mirror can be pretty important. This is a 2 mana draw 2-3 in the early game. If you find yourself in the late game against miracles, loam + cycle lands outrace Jace in terms of card advantage so it is hard for them to grind you out that way (oversimplifying here)
I feel similarly about Thalia vs Delver. If she was good at gumming up the board in the matchup I'd be happy to play her, because having the more robust mana base gives us e big edge there. Given that that is not the case, she feels pretty bad to cast if they already have delver/goyf/DRS in play.
Against shardless she snipes the cascaded visions and decays, so she is better but IDK if good enough.
Shardless will fetch forest and swamp aggressively against you, and they play DRS and Bayou so Choke is pretty weak against them.
About the primer, it definitely sucks that the primer and the first 80-90 pages of this thread are devoted to a "different deck." If there is interest (from the regulars, I realize that people still learning the deck just want a primer), I could try to start a new thread. I'd of course need some help with matchups and such but otherwise.. I've been playing the deck (almost exclusively) ever since people stopped playing Countryside Crusher and started playing Chalice so I'm qualifiedish.
On point with the Miracles MU.
I guess I kinda agrre with you on the Shardless MU but I still like to bring the lone Choke for Some blowouts. In this matchup I go the Miracles tactic on overloading the decay targets.
About Delver, Thalia is not an auto-include by any stretch. I started boarding her in after GP Lille against delver and found that it matched my playstyle since I was not a fun of GSZ in the MU.
I also believe that we need a new thread since much of this one is discussing a different deck. Just PM if you need help :smile:
# the Loam vs Miracles topic: Sure we play fetches which we can get back with loam but for what?? Our manabase is safe and they will play around our wastelands the first 4-5 turns if they want to because they have 10 fetches with 5-6 basics, they dont care if I waste they´re 5th or 6th land drop...We also dont have cards like Seisimic Assault or Devastatin Dreams anymore where we would need those many lands in hand...Quote:
Originally Posted by apocolyps6
Loam + Cycle lands are great but the current lists play only 3 of them so hitting 2 for example is quite rare...1 Cycle land just replaces your normal draw step which is not that huge advantage at all.
But your probably right about the Ooze topic.
Usually to assure land drops. You should rarely ever be loaming as if we still had Seisimic Assault or Devastatin Dreams in the deck anyway.Quote:
Sure we play fetches which we can get back with loam but for what??
Think of a hand like this: Verdant Catacombs, Mox Diamond, Taiga, Life from the Loam, Chalice of the Void, Abrupt decay, Knight of the Reliquary
If there is no loam, you have 2 mana on turn 1 and then you are not guaranteed to have a third mana source in the near future. Against miracles you probably want more than 2 mana sources.
Wastelands are not that dead. Sometimes they do not have the right fetch, or just have duals in their hands. Miracles players are notorious for keeping 7 as long as it is potentially playable. We are of course not locking them out of spells, but wastelands are okay against them.
Later in the game with Loam, a cycle land, and 5 mana is almost always better to dredge and then cycle. By the late game between Loam, Bob, and especially Sylvan Library it is entirely possible to find 2 cycle lands.
That being said, I'm not 100% against cutting both loams. Usually I only do this when playing against something very fast where having lands does not matter like belcher, but if it works for you then it is probably fine. Especially if you board out 2 moxen, which I don't do for reasons of varying legitimacy.
It's also worth noting that you can Waste a fetchland in response to a Top activation to force a decision between land destruction and forfeit of their miracle/top card. Wasteland 2 stronk.Quote:
Originally Posted by apocolyps6
apocolyps6 is correct on all points about Loam.
In other sideboarding news, do you guys automatically bring in Golgari Charm against ANT? I hadn't unless I saw for sure an Empty the Warrens, but the other day I played a game against ANT where I brought in Golgari Charm as a solution to Empty the Warrens, and I actually ended up using it to regenerate my Thalia. After that I kinda banged my head against the wall for a bit for not realizing the potential sooner. Is this a new thing I'm figuring out, or am I just retarded? I mean, we do have a lot of actual shit that's left over post-board. Might be worth it.