I think it would have been better if it had a "leaves the battlefield" clause. Wurmcoil Engine is probably just better.
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I think it would have been better if it had a "leaves the battlefield" clause. Wurmcoil Engine is probably just better.
I briefly tried Walker. I had 2 in the board but hardly boarded it in. It's still a good card, not sure about it being viable.Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
I thought that it was good as it could be a turn 1 play (via Ancient Tomb etc.) or late game with tons of mana. Also being a Construct is nice if you play Cavern of Souls as it shares a creature type with Forgemaster and Metalworker. But in reality I rarely boarded it in vs anyone.
It's still worth experimenting with though.
The only thing I immediately thought of was Trinket Mage + walker.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilkin
In a colorless build you would probably need the cloudposts for this to be close to viable. Without the ridiculous amount of potential mana I think there is probably other threats that you could look at first.
I talked with andy probasco about hangarback walker in vintage. He and rich shay tested it before champs and from what I understand it is mostly there as anti pulverize anti serenity tech. Not much pulverize being played though. It being a scalable threat is nice too. Vintage is much more infested with artifact-hate so hangarback walker is a good metagame choice there. i dont see it in legacy but I may well be wrong.
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i didn't see any Arcbound Ravagers but I really like Hangarback Walker with ravager and trike.
In legacy,
An 8cc, 4/4 that makes four 1/1's can be game changing.
A 6cc, 3/3 that grows and makes at least three 1/1's... I'd still prefer more Wurmcoils.
A 4cc, 2/2 that grows and makes at least two 1/1's will get eaten by Goyfs, Batterskulls, or better, but will trump Liliana without blockers.
A 2cc, 1/1 that grows and makes at least one 1/1 sounds like a losing card, but would be the best value for it especially if you can protect and grow it really big while not losing the game. Sounds like a very challenging feat to do.
And at any level, it can get AD'ed. Not saying its a bad card, but more of a bad investment for a slot. I think it is best in a deck that can consistently produce big mana or can double threat fast (eg. cast Chalice and Walker in turn one).
I can see Hangarback Walker being played alongside Master of Etherium for 0 mana. At that cost, it's a great creature I think.
Those are in fact the match ups where Contagion Clasp comes in, plus infect.Quote:
Originally Posted by movingtonewao
These are the correct targets as far as I'm concernedQuote:
Originally Posted by Dissection
Roland Chang played a walker list in Legacy, using Smokestack Ravager and Ensnaring bridge. I didn't catch his full mana base so I don't know if he was on post lands or if he went white for Flagstones with Smokestack. In Legacy it's a scalable threat which is nice, but I think it needs to be built around, basically cutting your forgemaster package and adding in ravagers and such.Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
Sounds like a neat idea. Not sure about Ensnaring Bridge unless it came out from the SB. I'd probably opt to splash red for Welder/Daretti to recur Stacks, Tangle Wire, Wurmcoil Engine, Ravager, and Triskelion.
The bridges may have come out of the board, I only saw pictures of the list and I didn't get to see it in action at Eternal Weekend. But I think that it is reasonable to play bridges in the main, since you are playing the smokestack. Hiding behind bridge while you grind the other guy out is strong, and the deck had 7-8 ways to remove the bridge, plus you can use the thopter tokens and ravager to attack through it anywaysQuote:
Originally Posted by L10
Just an FYI, I went completely undefeated at a 12 person GPT for GP Seattle with my usual list. The only change I made was -1 Karn liberated from the sideboard for +1 Spine of Ish Sah due to the prevalence of Omnishow.
The tournament was 5 rounds cut to top 4, but after 4 rounds the standings showed the top4 was already determined by points (My intention was to double-draw in after round 3, which is what I did).
Round 1: Dredge (2-1)
Dredge is generally an easy matchup for MUD because chalice at 1 turns off one of their sacrifice outlets, and Trinisphere makes them entirely reliant on ichorids and narcomoebas, as well as bridge triggers. In game 1 I had a turn 1 trinisphere and my opponent scooped on the spot. I don't think that was the right call on his part, but the result is probably the same. I boarded in 2 tormod's crypts but didn't see them in game 2 and he had a fast enough hand to beat me down. Game 3 I got a lodestone golem on board pretty early on and sort of locked him out with it.
Round 2: Shardless BUG (2-1)
I was not expecting to win this matchup, as I know BUG can be troublesome. I don't have many notes written down from this, but I remember trinisphere locking him out of doing a lot, and in one of the games he basically just drew lands and I resolved an Ugin.
Round 3: Canadian Thresh (2-0)
Another matchup I was not expecting to go so easily. In game 1 I think my opponent was stuck on 1 land for longer than usual, and I ate through 2 of his force of wills with trinisphere and kuldotha forgemaster. The real spells I wanted to land were the lightning greaves and the platinum angel I had from my opener. The greaves hit play because I assume my opponent figured he'd just deal with whatever creature I would cast. Platinum angel saves the day when I'm at 7 life, and I equip greaves and my opponent scoops. RUG has no mainboard way to deal with a lightning greaves'd platinum angel.
Game 2 was a blur, I think I got chalice at x=1 on the table and it was pretty downhill from there for RUG.
Round 4: ID with omnishow
Round 5: ID with omnishow
Top4: Omnishow (2-0)
My opening hand was Cloudpost, Vesuva, City of Traitors, Ancient Tomb, Spine of Ish Sah, Trinisphere, and another land I don't remember, maybe wasteland? My opponent digs for his show and tell with cantrips for a couple turns, and by the time he finds show and tell I have 6 mana in play. I show and tell in trinisphere and he is forced to pass the turn since he only has 1 or 2 lands untapped after show and tell. On my turn I play my city of traitors and cast spine of ish sah to blow up omniscience. He cantrips on his next turn and doesn't hit his land drop, so I'm free to cast whatever I draw. I drew a forgemaster and the next turn cast a grim monolith as well. On his turn he cantrips again and doesn't have enough mana to cast anything else so he passes it back to me. I pass the turn back after drawing something non-useful. On his turn he cantrips again and during his end step I get blighsteel colossus for the win.
I sideboard in 1 emrakul, 2 spine of ish sah, 1 karn liberated. I side out 1 sundering titan, 2 lightning greaves, and 1 platinum angel (emrakul annihilator trigger will just kill it anyway)
I landed a chalice at x=1 and don't remember much else about game 2 except the fact that I got forgemaster and 3 artifacts down pretty quickly, and when forgemaster lost summoning sickness and my opponent was passing the turn back to me, he says "I guess you just win with forgemaster now right?" and scooped.
Final round: Omnishow (2-1)
This round was a shit-show of crazy luck on my part. Game 1 he show and tells omniscience and casts emrakul and kills me pretty quickly.
I sideboard the same as in the top4 match vs omnishow.
Game 2 I have to mulligan down to 5 cards due to no-land hands, and my 5 cards were Wasteland, City of Traitors, Blightsteel Colossus, trinisphere, and Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. Turn 1 wasteland, pass. Opponent cantrips on his turn. I cast trinisphere on turn 2 off wasteland and city, opponent lets it resolve thinking omniscience overrides it. On his turn 3 he casts show and tell and I put my emrakul into play, he puts omniscience down and tries to cast emrakul. I inform him emrakul costs 3 because of trinisphere. He thinks for a solid minute and we go to game 3.
Game 3 I have emrakul and trinisphere in my opener again. He show and tells omniscience and I put down 3sphere. On my next turn I cast metalworker, which resolves. He cantrips and passes back to me. I cast 2 lodestone golems and pass it back. He cantrips and passes back to me. I cast spine of ish sah and he (and I) misunderstood how dig through time, omniscience, 2 lodestone golems, and trinisphere work together, so he taps mana to cast dig through time, exiling his whole graveyard (8 cards at the time). Spine of ish sah resolves and blows up omniscience, I bash him for 10 and he goes to 7 life. On his turn he has 5 mana and casts show and tell again, and we both show in emrakul. He scoops.
I'm considering cutting a lightning greaves (leaving 1 mainboard) and putting either another Spine of Ish Sah or a Duplicant in the mainboard. I currently already have 1 spine in the main, but I fear omniscience so much. Lightning greaves has been less amazing as of late, so I figure it's the most flexible slot to replace with a spine or duplicant.
Does anyone have any other strategies against omnishow, or super secret tech for them?
I came across this problem as an OmniTell player. 3sphere off Show & Tell just kills us. So to combat this I just add in from the sideboard Vendilion Cliques. Since I'm mono-blue as well I don't get hit by Wasteland and the like so I can cast it efficiently. I don't understand why a lot of OmniTell players don't have Cliques in their sideboard for this matchup. I mean cmon, the Cliques are a win condition themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakobian
I had fun dropping an uba mask on a guy one game. Its super narrow but extremely funny if it sticks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakobian
For the most part, we tutor for Blightsteel. It has made Sundering Titan more like a flex card for me. Has anybody thought of replacing the Titan as well?
@Jakobian: gratz on the finish.
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkgh0st
I've been debating the Titan as well, but I think Im tabling my MUD list for a bit. Some of it may just be variance/the fact that when the deck works it looks unbeatable and when it fails it looks like trash, but I've been on a real run of just unkeepable hands (Vesuva + Wasteland or City anyone?), hands that are ok but get absolutely wrecked by a wasteland etc. The deck does not mulligan particularly well either. I've been seeing an increase in Delver in my area, and the combination of enter tapped lands, getting wastelanded, and having to play around daze makes for a really rough time on the draw.
I don't think MUD is a fantastic deck to be playing in a wasteland heavy meta; it's not that it can't win, but damn is it considerably harder, especially when it's a blue deck running the wastes.
Titan is one of the most valuable tutor targets in this deck, isn't it? I think it's actually correct to run 2 Titans. Being able to destroy an opponent's manabase is just so powerful in certain matchups.Quote:
Originally Posted by darkgh0st
You'd be surprised, I have cut down on Titans and haven't seen any big finishes from lists running multiples. I've found him to be not all that relevant, in terms of Forgemaster targets Steel Hellkite and Platinum Emperion have been my #2 and #3 targets after blightsteel. The Steel Hellkite is such a ridiculous board wipe, and the Emperion stabilizes and keeps you in the game. I'm taking something of a MUD break for a bit, but if I were to run the list this Sunday at the Jersey 5k I would strongly consider switching out Platinum Emperion for Triskelion.Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
Its a choice between Titan, 4th 3sphere, or 2nd Greaves.Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
@Jakobian: Did you take out the Steel Hellkite and replaced it with Ugin?
Would you swap Wastes to Darksteel Citadels, at this point?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikter
No, because its rarely the wastelands that are getting targeted (lands will target it to protect depths combo), its the Sol lands and Locus lands, and for me the utility of the wastelands trumps darksteels indestructable and being an artifact. That said, I've lately found myself in positions where I can't waste because it hurts my own mana base more than it does theirs, because I'm trying to cast 6-8 mana spells and they are trying to cast delver of secrets and goyf. This is the reason I stopped playing wasteland in the first place, although I recently brought it back to fight ports and depths combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by darkgh0st
I was debating working up a hangarback walker/arcbound ravager version of MUD to fight the delver lists, because I think the big mana variants are just way too high variance these days, and I wanted an actual lowered curve, not a virtual curve obtained through ramping.
I went to a 20 man LQ this weekend and finished 4-1:
Round 1 - Monored Goblins
The player was a teammate of mine and we both knew what each other was playing.
1-2
G1 - He went first, I mull to 6 and keep a hand good enough to finish him quickly if he starts with vial. He casts a lackey, that brings matron, that brings goblin settler and I die quickly.
I side in Contagion Engine, Torpor Orb, and revokers, side out Sundering Titan, trinispheres.
G2- I go cloudpost T1, lodestone, wurmcoil T3, that eventually brings me to 28 life. He casts a few goblins and swing for 16, then Ugin says hi.
G3 - I mull to 5 looking for a quick hand, but find a hand good enough if he starts with vial. He T1 lackey and wrecks me again.
Round 2 - RW Death and Taxes
2-0
G1- He tries to waste and lock me with blood moon, but I get a metalworker online, cast ugin, spit my hand and finish him quickly.
I side in revokers, staff of nin and ratchet bomb and takeout sundering titan and trinispheres.
G2- He goes vial, revoker on kuldotha, I go revoker on vial, chalice on 1. He casts Magus of the moon, then stoneforge to batterskull and goes for the beating. I resolve, ratchet bomb, greaves and platinum angel with metalworker. He thinks hard and tries to cast cataclysm, but he doesn't have WW. Then I misplay badly. I sandbag his life to get to 8 mana and cast Ugin, -3. Of course he cataclysms the next turn, but I thought Ugin would remain on board. I keep a land, greaves and angel, and he keeps stoneforge. Angel beats him to death while I'm at negative life.
Round 3 - Elves
2-1
G1 - He starts and I mull to 5. He goes GSZ for dryad, I waste him. He casts an elf, I cast chalice on 1. He casts another elf. I go trinisphere. He does something, I Ugin.
I side in contagion engine, 2 revokers and sideout sundering titan and 2 wurmcoils.
G2 - I try to combo with metalworker, that gets decayed. He gets natural order for hoof. GG.
G3 - I play T1 metalworker, T2 Ugin.
Round 4 - Naya
2-1
G1 - I mull to 5, he goes first and plays Grove of the burnwillows to deathrite shaman. I cast monolith, and next turn, trinisphere T4 ugin, that ults on T6. Later he tells me that he kept the hand because he though the willow was a fetch land.
I side in revokers, sideout trinisphere.
G2 - He T1 thoughtseize and takes my wurmcoil. I cast chalice on 1. He goes tarmogoyf, then hymn to tourach. I fail to do anything relevant before he bashes me.
Since I'm on the play, I put trinispheres back and take out 1 chalice and 1 revoker.
G3 - I keep a hand with wasteland, 3 posts, metalworker, lodestone. He duress me and takes nothing. I draw a monolith and casts metalworker. He casts DRS. I draw a Staff and combo.
Round 5 - Elves
2-1
The opponent is another teammate of mine. We both know what each other is playing (he have a foil MUD).
G1 - He goes GSZ dryad. I cast trinisphere. He casts symbiote, I go wurmcoil and beat him a couple of times until Hellkite arrives.
same side than before.
G2 - He casts an elf, I cast monolith, chalice on 1. He casts heritage druid and I cast kuldotha. He casts Elvish visionary. I fetch contagion engine and proliferate, clearing his board. Next turn, Ugin that eventually ultimate him.
I'm second on swiss and gets 108 bucks as prize (first was the goblins player from round 1). Top 8 continues for points to the nationals.
Top 8 - Elves
the same opponent from round 5. Game went basically the same, Ugin is just unbeatable against elves.
Top 4 - Reanimator
Another teammate of mine. It's a bad match for me.
G1 - I mull reasonable hands to try to get a fast hand. I fail and keep a so-so hand of 5. He starts slow and I regret mulliganing. I'm dazed once and he combos on turn 4.
I side in 3 tormod's, sideout wurmcoils.
G2 - I mull to 6 and keep a hand with 3 lands, trinisphere, chalice and lodestone. Chalice is forced, trinisphere sticks, but I don't have a beater to tempo him. he combos anyway.
I get some foil lodestone golems and stuff as prize.
As for the tutor topic, 75 percent of the time, I fetch for Blightsteel, 20 percent of the time, I fetch for Sundering Titan, and 5 percent of the of the time, I fetch for Staff of Nin. The 20 percent of the time is against Miracles, since fetching for Blightsteel can be a liability.
This is precisely why I stopped playing with 12-post and have more utility Lands (4 Cavern of Souls, 4 Wastelands, 4 Mishra's Factory, 2 Darksteel Citadel / Buried Ruins) and 1/2 Crucible of Worlds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikter