Yup, that's pretty much the consensus. Both have pluses and play based on personal preference from that point on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Holynorth
Printable View
Yup, that's pretty much the consensus. Both have pluses and play based on personal preference from that point on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Holynorth
Ingot Chewer and Ancient Grudge actually serve very different purposes.
Chewer is used as anti-hate towards artifact grave hate, and he is usually used as a 3 of since you want to actually draw him in your opener or cantrip into him. Triggering Bridges with him is a real thing as well since Grafdigger's Cage doesn't actually stop you from dredging, and even if the Chewer gets countered you're still at least making zombies in the face of hate.
Ancient Grudge's primarily used to destroy equipment like Batterskull or Jitte. You usually see Grudge as a 1-of, but sometimes a 2-of, in lists without a Dread Return package because Batterskull is a real issue for them if it hits early on. Grudge can also be ridiculous if you have it in your opener along with two lands, but that's more of a corner case for the card. It can also destroy other random nuisances like Chalice on 1 and Ensnaring Bridge.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HammafistRoob
Quote:
Chewer is used as anti-hate towards artifact grave hate
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Both of them destroy artifacts can do either role, no?Quote:
Ancient Grudge's primarily used to destroy equipment like Batterskull or Jitte.
i'm starting to believe that if you want to play street wraith in the quadlazer build, you should take out break through instead of careful study.
There are times when I just want to save some cards in hand just because I don't fee like discarding my entire hand because I do have some anti hate in my hand.
Meaning that Street Wraith has been successful for you? I have also been contemplating between Breakthrough/Careful Study/Wraith.Quote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
it dodges but you become reactive instead of proactiveQuote:
Originally Posted by kingofethanol
Yes they can both destroy any artifact, but they are more efficient than each other depending on what kind of artifacts you're aiming to hit. It's all about how much sideboard space you are willing to dedicate to certain things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Holynorth
Sure Chewer can kill equipment, but Grudge is better at it because you can play just 1 and dredge into it. Grudge is terrible against grave-hate because it costs 2 mana to play from your hand. It is good against things like Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus, but nobody is playing those right now. You should be worried about Grafdigger's Cage and Rest in Peace.
Having said that, I'm not a fan of Ingot Chewer since he's a little to narrow, in my opinion, to justify giving up ~3 sideboard slots. I almost always play with 1 Ancient Grudge in my sideboard to deal with Batterskull and Ensnaring Bridge.
Ingot Chewer will only trigger bridge against Grafdigger's Cage. Otherwise the opponent will respond to you evoking it. But Chewer can also not be countered. So basically it boils down to this: Ancient Grudge is superior, because you don't have to have it in hand. However, it's dead against Cage. Grudge is therefore the more multi functional card, that dies against one of the most important hate cards/counter heavy (tempo)decks.
Meta choice!
(If you see loads of cage/tempo (they play cage :P) go for Ingot Chewer, otherwise Grudge is fine in an unknown meta.)
Perfect guys, I'll carry around both and switch them out as needed.
I'm new to Dredge and just trying to get the hang of things.
I'm agreed with this sentiment. With that being said I've seen a more recent uptick in the number of cages floating around which makes me lean more towards the chewer. And lets be honest here drawing an early chewer allows you to play around cards like Tormond's Crypt and Nihil Spellbomb anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by tyriion
Don't see many people playing transitional SB anymore (ie painter, etc). What has been the general consensus on that?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Hey guys,
my metagame is currently infested by BUGs and I would like to know if anybody can give me some advice regarding the matchup.
I am playing a quadlazer-ish list (-1 ichorid -1 thug, +1 tarnished citadel +1 dread return) similar to Drew Lewin's, with street wraiths instead of careful studies. I have read the debate some pages above about wraith and, IMHO, the dude is working wonderfully: it gives the deck a free uncounterable accelerator that I think was necessary in order to win against combo decks like ANT and SnT, plus a nice trolling answer to DRS. During the last 2 weeks I got for the first time 4th and 5th in respectively a 40- and 30-man tournaments, and I felt that I won many of the games thanks to the extra speed granted by wraith. Or maybe was it just luck?? :)
Anyway, the only matchups I have been losing were against BUG. And yesterday I got paired 3 out of 6 times against them, ending with either drawing or losing miserably to them. On paper, BUG should have the best cards in the format (counters + disruption + strong creatures) and I can't see much we can do about it. But do you have any viable strategy to actually WIN against such deck?
For reference, my sideboard currently is:
1 tarnished citadel
4 nature's claim
4 firestorm
1 dread return
1 Iona
1 Elesh Norn
1 ashen Rider
2 unmask
My strategy has been to side in the dread return package with Iona plus unmask, and hope to dodge hate/counters/discards with unmask and combo out turn 1 or 2 with Iona on black. It never worked out as I hoped for :) is there any other better strategy?
Thanks in advance for your help
What is the problem exactly/what are the plays they have that have bugged you?Quote:
Originally Posted by vikingus666
And why is Iona your plan A? I feel like approaching that MU from that angle is not terribly effective, but I could be wrong.
could we reconsider enlisting fatestitcher back as a solid sb choice?
pros:
-tap mana to bring a body on board for dr or therapy,
-also can untap 1 mana or tap down opponents mana to force an untimely "blind play"
-can tap trinisphere, tormods crypts, relics, deathrites, nihil spellbombs...reanimator shenanigans...gravetroll unblocked...
cons:
its not ashen ghoul...doesnt deliver damage
i realize again this is more a vintage choice for targeting bazaar...just thinking that our new meta means we need more tricks to ensure our dr combo goes off or their hate gets triggered too early and were back in the game.
my question is,,what comes out if stitcher goes in ... and how many ..2-3?
does anyone have experience with stitcher in our current meta?
-
G1 is generally ok, even though when I'm on the draw, thougthseize turn 1 backed up by daze/FoW can screw up a hand with only one or two outlets/accelerators and not even let me start playing. Double DRS can also be annoying in case I am not opening with LED+looting or having at least a street wraith in hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by kingofethanol
G2 is where the going gets tough. They have at least 8 hate cards and they are very diversified (DRS, ooze, surgical extraction, nihil spellbomb, relic of progenitus, grafdigger's cage) plus the hate is still backed up by discards and counters, making it more difficult to dodge. I also played against a dude who sided in meddling mage, which was surprisingly effective when used in the right situations (for example shutting down lootings, therapies, dread return).
To go combo ASAP was my plan A because I didn't find very effective to bring in nature's claim or firestorm, as they would either run into a wall of counters or get thoughtseized. And the hate is half creatures (DRS+ooze) half artifacts (relic, spellbomb, cage), so I couldn't risk to get stuck with the wrong answer to their question. Iona on black should shut down any creature removal and be a 2-3 turn clock, but maybe another target would be more appropriate?
From which angle would you approach that matchup? And would you make some changes to the SB as well?
hi to all! I've been playing dredge since zendikar came out till last spring. Now I've sleeved up my LEDdredge again and after a couple of weeks of testing I've reached a list that satify me:
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
1 Darkblast
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
Sideboard
SB: 2 Dread Return
SB: 1 Flame-Kin Zealot
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 2 Ashen Ghoul
SB: 2 Undiscovered Paradise
Now, I've a question for you all:
the small DReturn package is there for all the decks that can't really stand you if you play like a combo deck when you're on the play on G3 like Painters, Lands, D&T, Elves, Maverick, Goblins, MUD among others. So what you think to be the best target between Zealot and Flayer?
Obv Zealot allows to kill faster, but Flayer makes you win around Ensnaring Bridge, Pacekeeper and similar effects. Another possible target is Ashen Rider, this changes the plan from combo-that-kills to combo-that-sends-u-back-to-paleolithic-era allowing you to attack their lans on t2-3 or eventually removing annoying permanents like bridge or other stuff that they use to go off like painter or grindstone...
Do you think it worth some tests?
What problems does Fatesticher solve? I haven't seen a Surgical Extraction in any deck playing /w and Nihil Spellbomb seems to be popular in BUG so I'm not even certain the ol' Ashen Ghouls and Nether Shadows have a place in the SB anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by ottofromorbit
@SB Dread Return package
I don't think SBing the Dread Return Griselbrand/Flame Kin Zealot package is as effective as SBing a Deep Analysis if all we want to do is gold fish on the draw, the whole Lion's Eye Diamond, Cephalid Coliseum, Deep Analysis chain is pretty sick, and it only costs 1 SB/MD slot compared to 4. I tend to avoid the win more cards altogether, but if I had to pick a win more card I'd say Deep Analysis probably does the most for the least amount of space and you should usually be on the draw g2.
no careful study's is a mistake. if you rlly want to run street wraith move breakthrough to the sideboard, you can make room their by dropping the leylines which are mostly a useless card anyway. You will only run them against the mirror or reanimator, your main plan against both of those decks is just to be faster. But not running 4 study's is a huge mistake, idc what drew levin says in his article... its a dumb idea. especially when only 8 or your lands can cast looting.Quote:
Originally Posted by hellhound
I've already tested with careful study instead the breakthrogh and... it doesn't give you enough boost in my opinion. In my experience also post side best thing you can do is to explode and compromise the board before any hate hit the table. BTW last days I've opened about 200 hands on a deckbuilder program to decide between careful and brekthrough: keep 7 with CS 72% millin' a mean of 16 cards, keep 7 with BKT 61% BUT millin' a mean of 27 cards. A lot of times those 11 cards turned to be gamebreakers (like a second therapy to hit correctly or a 2 turn win instead a 3 turn win). So I'm going to stick with the BKT.Quote:
Originally Posted by raikenxy
Good call on the Deep Analysis, going to test it. Although it feels a bit marginal to do DA and Coliseum with the mana from the same LED...
Not filling so confident to take out Leylines from SB, too many Reanimator, mirrors and Lands here in my meta
Don't mean to troll but how r the cards game breaking if it's in a deck builder program ?! Careful study facilitates dredging and allows you to start combining off ASAP. If all your running are lootings I guarantee u will run into hands where your only draw spells are breakthrough and ull have no way to put cards in your graveyard. In that situation your either gonna have to mulligan or go hellbent turn one just to get dredgers in the yard. There's no reason not to run both careful study and faithless looting, especially if your main plain is to be as fast as possible. To do that you need the maximum number of enables your list can hold and that should be both looting and study.Quote:
Originally Posted by hellhound