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That's a stock Lands list. It hasn't changed more than 2-3 cards in the past year, mostly just the sideboard. Drop of Honey goes in and out of favor (also dependant on card availability), Tireless Tracker x2-3 has become stock, and some lists change the ratio of Chalice of the Void/Sphere of Resistance in the sideboard. I can't think of another deck that has changed less in the past year, lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by malekith
You mean putting the Confidants in the SB and bringing them out for slower matchups? Main issue for me is that my SB is tight as it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
It’s entirely my fault: I take a hamfisted approach to sideboarding that is entirely predicated on a sober realization: I’m not a very good player and I will take all the help I can get. I will play 4 Leylines of the Void rather than 3 Surgicals because although I have my moments when playing against Reanimator or Dredge, they are few and far between. I usually miss that little spot that could have squeezed me that win round 1 (although sadly my theory is good enough that I will realize so a couple of hours later), so I need a shotgun rounds 2 and 3. I also play the extra Pithing Needles, Dread of Night, Chokes, and Lilianas, no “1-offs to give than extra percentage edge in each and every matchup” for me.
I played around with Negator’s BUG list yesterday and today. It feels exactly like I expected: a list for a good player. Sure, it’s still Depth, so you still have those few easy wins. But when games go long, you feel you’re right at the edge, and exact play is required to pull of the win. In exchange, you feel every matchup is doable, except round 1 Ensnaring Bridge somehow. I can play that for a short while, when I’m well rested, but I always end up slipping. Brainstorm is the more powerful card, but Confidant is the supporting cushion: no need to be extra smart to time his arrival, and if he sticks around, you will recover from a misplay.
Depth is still a bit of an oddity for me. I used to play Omni-Tell, and it was all about making sure you had them, only taking a risk when under pressure. With Depth, it too often comes down to seeing their hand and seeing they have nothing, calculating the odds of them drawing the right card during their next turn, and giving it a try. Taking more turns to find protection merely means giving them more turns to find their answer, as far as I can tell. It’s fine when it works, but it’s still a lottery. For me the Confidants are not about finding the combo the first time around, even if they can do that, it’s all about recovering when that lottery went wrong. I’m not sure I want to give that up even for one round.
Sorry I wasn't clear, that's not what I meant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfy
1) Play 3-4x Dark Confidant main
2) When you sideboard into a grindier strategy you already have a card maindeck (Bob) that makes it legit
3) You are better suited to fight sideboarded Edict effects with additional must-answer creatures main (Bob)
What I am saying is that Confidant is good enough for the maindeck, supporting the turbo strategy as well as the grind plan. If you already have Confidants main the grind plan out of the sideboard gets more reliable. You can board in Abrupt Decay, Sylvan Library, Choke, and because you already have maindeck Confidants your deck is much closer to a value-based mid-range deck. Confidant is the card that tips the scales on effectiveness, IMHO. Confidant and Library are incredible against Miracles/Grixis because you are actually matching them on card advantage/selection. I don't think its an exaggeration in saying Turbo Depths is the best Dark Confidant deck in legacy right now.
Make sense?
EDIT: Regarding playstyle, I was also hesitant to dive head-first into Depths after playing Deadguy/Rock/Nic-Fit for years. I realized that this deck rewards practice and format knowledge in a huge way, they are essential for success with the deck (not that I've been very successful yet, lol.) I have noticed a slow, gradual upward trend with the deck as I gain more experience. The 'lottery' feeling goes away when you nail down the right decklist, which for me ATM includes Cabal Therapy and Dark Confidant. I get outplayed but I don't lose to myself quite so much, lol.
So, blue splash for Flusterstorm is the new hotness? I know Negator77 has been on blue for Brainstorm and stifle, flusterstorm out of the board, but this version only has Trop + FStorm x3.
https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=20529&d=334948&f=LE
I just tried to splash blue to test Flusterstorm. This is also in preparation for GP Shizuoka since Japan meta has lots of Miracles and SnS decks. The BUG Depths players (Negator77, Jax, Jdm etc) are all advocating Flusterstom. And since Turbo Depths has some problem against other combo decks (Storm, SNS) Flusterstorm would be another tool to help against them aside from our discard spells. But this list needs more testing as Flusterstorm shines more with the BUG Depths list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
Storm is at an all-time low at my local store, everyone is on blue stews, D&T, Lands, Stompy variants, Dredge, Reanimator, and S&S. I might have *one* storm player at the 1K 12/1, and I don't feel the matchup is necessarily unfavored, probably closer to even. I'm not preparing too much for storm. I'm gearing up for Miracles, Grixis Control, Death and Taxes, Eldrazi, Dredge, and Elves. I think if I prepare heavily for those matchups I should do alright.
Yes, what you say makes absolute sense. And I agree Depth is an excellent shell for Confidant. Plus every Fatal Push and Lightning Bolt is one less Edict in hand or even in their list or 3 that did not go to my face. It’s funny at times how the deck grinds through sheer threat of an insta-win rather than actually filling the battlefield.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
The MTGO Leagues meta has become downright hostile recently, and people are packing a rather hefty amount of hate these days. More Wastes, more Needles, more Miracles and DnT. I even faced a deck that packed Needle AND Sorcerous Splyglass in addition to maindeck Stage and Karakas (seriously, who plays Needles, plural, AND Spyglass??). I guess I should probably blame Negator, Jax and co for their successes, but seriously, playing a combo deck and having people getting free wins round 1 against you just feels bad...
So I’m a taker for your current list: I currently have 2 Decays and 2 Trophies main, and while it’s nice to know I can always answer a bunch of stuff, I agree with you I need to go faster round 1 and leave the grind for when I know what I’m facing. Clearly what I’m doing now has stopped working, so let’s try something else.
Depths seems to be a very affordable option online, it has always seemed quite popular there. I don't play online so my local metagame is my only real consideration. At weeklies I've averaged a split in wins/losses, completely dependent on who was bringing their #1 deck choice or testing out janky alternatives. At an actual tournament it will be different; I expect to run into 2 bad matchups in 5-6 rounds and blast some fringe decks with the rest. It's getting close to a shift where people are starting to play decks that beat Miracles/Grixis, which leaves them wide open to Marit Lage.
I'll be sure to post results, and hopefully take notes in between rounds.
You can expect more hate going forward as more well-known players have been picking up or trying the deck... Bob Huang has been putting up good results online while David Long has been doing well in paper. Andrea Mengucci played the deck recently too. Depths has been underplayed for a while, so it's not surprising that the secret is coming out. :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfy
The MTGO meta is great. not sure where you're getting the hostility from but I've been cashing 4-1s and 5-0s consistently.
2 weekends ago, I had a 4-1 and a very easy 5-0. Last weekend, I played 4 leagues, and met 9 Miracles, which makes it 45% of my matches! (at least one might have been Stoneblade, but I wasn’t making a difference by then) I also met 2 DnTs. I weirdly did not meet a single Reanimator, no Burn, and Dredge only twice (weirdly twice the same player in the same league), and tempo stuff managed to get under me, mostly thanks to Wasteland. Tuesday was a holiday here, and I played 2 more leagues. I again met a bunch of Wastelands, the aforementioned Needle and Spyglass, a Sneak and Show that ran me over with good hands, one DnT, and basically managed to get my wins against UR Delver and other tempo stuff (especially one player who decided to tap his Wasteland to get out Tarmogoyf. Twice.).Quote:
Originally Posted by solnox
Sure, there was some serendipity, and I did not lose all my matches against Miracles, but I believe I managed 2 3-2s in 6 leagues, which is way below what I usually get with this deck, despite my low playing level. Might be bad luck, but the amount of maindeck hate sure felt brutal.
David Long's list made Third with Bobs and moxes:
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=20578&d=335406&f=LE
No Karakas, only 2 Surgicals, the GSZ are exclusively for Gaddok Teeg… I assume he expected little Reanimator/Dredge, and a lot of Storm? (I wrote this before checking the other decks, but hey, what do you know, 2 ANTs in the top 16... :tongue:) I also notice he added Life from the Loam main, which I found a great card against Miracles.Quote:
Originally Posted by malekith
I've recorded my last 130 or so matches and im currently at 71.4% win rate with a 7-2 record vs miracles, 5-2 vs grixis. 3-2 vs maverick, 8-3 vs DNT with the bob iteration of the deck.
MB Edicts, plow decks arent that big a deal. its the fast combo thats showing up again.
Are you on mox diamonds? I'd live to see a list. I'm playing the deck in a 1k on 12/1, but i don't have diamonds.Quote:
Originally Posted by solnox
https://imgur.com/a/CF0UT9A
my current list if I sleeved this up for a paper event.
Miracles feels like a walk in the park honestly now. DnT can still be rough but its much easier than before. KOTR decks are still an issue.
Warming: salty post.
Well, it’s a holiday here, and after a very disappointing weekend, I decided it was time I stopped pretending I knew how to tweak lists and just picked up solnox one. The matchups did not disappoint: I started with 3 straight Miracles (seriously...). At least, it was a good chance to put the 2 Bitterblossoms in the sideboard to the test, alongside the 2 Lilianas, the extra Library and the single Choke.
Again, I’ll be the first to admit I’m not a good player, which is certainly why I have one single trophy at the moment while solnox has 8 (last time I checked). Still. My Bitterblossoms got disenchanted, counciled, celestial purged, and of course snap-cast disenchanted, counciled and celestial purged. I never got more than two fairy tokens on the field at any point. Liliana fared a little better, but never got there thanks to eot snapcasters, cliques, and even a venser. Third match, a timely Brainstorm hid a Humility from me, and once resolved, in the absence of any Trophy, I was left to dig one card at a time for a Liliana as my sole winning condition: not a good thing against Miracles draw engine.
Serendipity? 3 matches don’t make a valid test pool. Still, I fail to see how this is a good matchup in any way. Even with the odd Confidant surviving or the odd Library sticking, by the time I have seen say 15 cards, they have gone through more than half of their library. By that time, the cognizant Miracles players has shaped their hand accordingly and will not die to Bitterblossom. I’d hardly call that “being favored”.
Went 0-3, winning 2 games out of 8, still salty.
I played 3 rounds at the local yesterday, went 2-1. Beat Hypergenesis and Goblins, lost to Blue Painter. Yes my local is fringe-y.
List I played:
4x Vampire Hexmage
3x Dark Confidant
1x Sylvan Safekeeper
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Lotus Petal
4x Crop Rotation
3x Sylvan Scrying
1x Expedition Map
3x Thoughtseize
3x Cabal Therapy
2x Duress
1x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Pithing Needle
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Bayou
1x Forest
1x Swamp
2x Blooming Marsh
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Sejiri Steppe
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Thespian's Stage
4x Dark Depths
Sideboard
1x Karakas
1x Golgari Charm
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
2x Rite of Consumption
2x Choke
2x Sylvan Library
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Ramanup Excavator
2x Surgical Extraction
Goblins seems like a pretty decent matchup. I lost g2 because I didn't draw Depths or a tutor, got double Siege-Gang-ed. G1 I had a turn 3 win, G3 I had the natural combo without any acceleration, but I draw into Lotus Petal to kill him t4.
I won g1 against Hypergenesis because he mulled to 5, I land a t1 Confidant and then top-deck discard over the next couple turns. Lose g2 to Show and Tell>Omniscience>Emrakul. G3 I have combo on board, he combos, gets a pile of dudes but no emrakul. I have Sejiri Steppe in hand, gg.
Blue Painter I lose game 1 because I don't have a maindeck answer to Ensnaring Bridge. I Needle Grindstone, so he can't win either, but I'm drawing extra cards from Confidant. I concede. G2 I Needle a bunch of stuff and blast through with Marit Lage around t5. Cabal Therapy was aces. G3 he has a faster combo, I have only a Thoughtseize, for interaction which he Forces because he has a turn 3 kill.
I traded into a 2nd Safekeeper, so that is going in straight away. I will likely drop 1x Elvish Spirit Guide or the Map for it, not sure yet which. I'm leaning towards Map. I really do like the Green Sun's Zenith plan as acceleration and providing Arbor for Therapy fodder (without costing me a fetchland.) Excavator wasn't really anything I wanted to bring in, I think I'll drop it from the board. That may become Gaddock Teeg or Marsh Casualties, probably Casualties.
Super excited to take this to Saturday's 1K, hope to slam some 20/20's into people's faces.
@alphy. how are you sideboarding? and how are you sequencing your discard spells/CA engines. you dont really want to jam unless you have multiple 2s . Saying go on T1 with a discard spell with open U is perfectly acceptable. Jamming a seize on T3 into 2 drop library/bob/etc is great.
Well, for all my disclaimers, I’m not THAT bad a player... :tongue: No, I sequenced well enough that my threats did hit the field, for the most part. They just dug and dug and found the correct removals (Celestial Purge was a bad surprise).Quote:
Originally Posted by solnox
As for the sideboard, I go:
OUT: 4 Mox Diamond, 1 Life from the Loam, 1 Ghostquarter, 1 Pithing Needle
IN: 1 Sylvan, 1 Choke, 2 Bitterblossoms, 2 Lilianas, 1 Wasteland
I still like to keep 2 Wastelands in to draw “naturally” to deal with Karakas, but that might be wrong. Let me know how you do it.