I thought we already established that Sigil and Words of War are the two best win conditions. I only mentioned Helix Pinnacle earlier because he was talking about the mirror.
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I thought we already established that Sigil and Words of War are the two best win conditions. I only mentioned Helix Pinnacle earlier because he was talking about the mirror.
Have anyone tried Gaea's Touch out? It's basically a free enchantment that can ramp you a single land if played early enough.
Having to give up 8-10 draws does not a best win condition make. It has become bog standard as an alternative win condition. Sigil is definitely the best win condition.
I don't know about you but with 2 - 5 Enchantress' out, I'm more than happy to give up 1-4 draws per enchantment. I've even used Words of War to clear their board before I had a solitary.Quote:
Originally Posted by waSP
As Spatula has said, what you actually use to kill someone is largely irrelevant because your win condition is Solitary Confinement. That's what ends games.
Words of War is preferable to Sigil because it costs less and can boost you in the early game, should you draw it. Sigil requires a much deeper investment.
I'd say that 75% of the time my win condition is a concession.
75% seems awfully low. I have at least a 95% concession rate on the games I win.
I ran exploration in the past. What would you cut to work these in, chrome mox?Quote:
Originally Posted by bondafong
From the following list i would probably cut:Quote:
Originally Posted by theillest
1 Runed Halo
2 Mirri's Guile
//Enchantress, by Paul Lynch
//Downloaded from StarCityGames.com
2 Plains
7 Forest
4 Wild Growth
1 Blood Moon
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
4 Utopia Sprawl
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Sterling Grove
3 Solitary Confinement
1 Moat
1 Karakas
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Words of War
4 Windswept Heath
4 Enchantress's Presence
1 Runed Halo
2 Mirri's Guile
1 Taiga
2 Savannah
2 Replenish
2 Serra's Sanctum
4 Argothian Enchantress
3 Elephant Grass
2 Arid Mesa
// Sideboard:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Nevermore
1 Stony Silence
1 Karmic Justice
1 Ground Seal
1 Humility
3 Choke
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Aura of Silence
Well, I think you're downgrading but give it a test. Guile is a great 1 drop and you'd be cutting your filter. I can see Halo on the board but maindeck it saves games.Quote:
Originally Posted by bondafong
Hi every one, I'm Paul. Ive playing the deck now for over a year & half now. My team created the GSZ build as soon as the card was released. for the debate over win cons, sigil and WoW are THE BEST. they let you win in one turn. words does require a bit of a set up though, but IT IS THE BEST WIN CON in your deck. i should have had 2 top 8 with this monster but last year at the DC 5k i had to play against a friend of mine in last round of the swiss instead of drawing (mike poszgay) low and behold it was the enchantress mirror. He had better breakers and scoped him in, still came in 19th. Emrakul is def a win more card. it does have it's applications in the mirror and with karakas, but those matches and interactions ar so far and few between its not worth wasting a card slot, plus he is a dead card in the early game. the 3 elephant grasses are fine, i had 4 and dropped back 3 about 6-7 months ago. you are never going to play it the early game. its more of a mid game card to help you get to a moat or a confinment lock. I've seen a lot of people wanting to cut the guiles and rune halo. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. both are a vital part of you set up and eventual lock. against some match ups moat plus halo wins the game. examples
goblins - name commander
rug - name delver (the fliped name - i cant spell)
stoneblade -name v clique
mavrick - name mindcensor
against control it names jace.
dreadge - names narco
guile is the best card filtration you have. most poeple like top. top is too mana intensive, is not an enchantment and doesnt play well with stoney silence out of the board. my build runs a bunch of fetch lands into combined with GSZ and groves guile will always let you look at a fresh set of cards every turn. it also helps in the early game to smooth out you draws and lets you sequience your plays. which is veary importaint becausethe early game is where you win or loose.
Sorry for being all over the place & for my spelling.
ps
sideboard changes
-1 aura of silence
+1 curse of exhaustion
Hey Paul, nice to see you on this thread.
I just picked up the deck and had some questions for you.
Could you post your SB plans for the most relevant match-ups (delver/stoneforge/dredge/combo/GW aggro).
Also I saw a report from a teammate of yours somewhere. Do you have one as well? I would be most interested. I was quite dissapointed I couldn't find a feature match of you :)
Congrats on the finish btw :)
Hey guys did you see that odd list that appear in Tampa? How about that Puca's Mischief + Illusions of Grandeur? :eyebrow:
Like everyone said before, once you get to a winning position with this deck, it makes no difference at all how you actually win.Quote:
Originally Posted by Masamune
Hey guys, I usually only play this deck as a Casual type but the local store is hosting a tournament coming up and I'm expecting alot of Stoneblade/Affinity/Dredge so I figured I'd give this a shot. I've seen alot of talk on win cons, and in a way I agree that once you "Lock" is the point at which you win, but the method I personal use to gain the win count is Laboratory Maniac, under cover from Spiritual Asylum. Ideally after the lock I use Eureka and drop all the lands that I've draw that turn from my hand, then proceed to stack the Enchantress effects until the maniac triggers. I'd like some thoughts/comments on this plan for my above mentioned meta. Like I said previously, I play this deck in a casual setting so I may be in over my head here. Thanks!
You'd be best off checking out the win conditions listed in the thread if you're going to try for something competitive.
Generally new suggestions for win conditions should address something that the current win conditions can't do well. Some of these cards might appear to be unnecessary until you are ready to win (which is the biggest criticism for Emrakul) and some might look like they don't do a good job of winning the game at all (Eureka, etc. in your case). If you're going off the beaten path, you should do your best to justify the irregular cards you are choosing to include. Otherwise, you're best off with Sigil of the Empty Throne.
For example, Words of War can win through a situation where creatures are unable to attack/deal damage (e.g., Peacekeeper).
Try to figure out what situations you're going to be dealing with that aren't very well addressed by playing Sigil of the Empty Throne and bring those up. One example is the mirror (which is rare for most people). Sigil of the Empty Throne and Words of War are very suboptimal for the mirror as they cannot get through a double Sterling Grove/Solitary Confinement lock. A one-of Unstable Footing for the mirror in the in the builds with red would be some kind of funny.
Puca's Mischief looks interesting for builds running lots of expensive'ish things that are global like Moat and Stony Silence as it allows you to steal win conditions/blockers. Trading a Moat for a Jace sounds like a pretty solid deal. I don't think it fits but it is interesting/creative in a different sort of build than is being discussed here.
I run a Living wish variant of the deck so I am slightly different from the regular builds. My targets in the side are a : LabMan, Emrakul, Enchantress, Kataki and Serra's Sanctum.
I've found that in the "Casual" games (still having to run up against FoW and control) the LabMan/Eureka has allowed me to win the game as early as turn 4. Which takes the aspect of worrying about going to time out, and most opponents aren't expecting a Enchantress deck to move quickly at all. If anyone would like I can post my current list.
@ Spidyh20: Yeah.... why don't you go ahead and post your list.
@ Dredge MU: Already in our favor. If you expect it prominently, I'd suggest MDing 1-2 Ground Seal as well as throwing in your SB as a 1 of, Bojuka Bog.
@ Affinity MU: Null Rod/Stony Silence + the Kataki in your SB should resolve this MU sufficiently. If you want to get overzealous, Energy Flux is another option.
@ Stoneblade MU: An annoying MU as nearly all of its countersuite are relevant, it has Snapcasters for redundancy, runs EE, and averages 3-4 Jace 2.0 to wreck our day. For this MU, luckily, there are some cards from the Dredge/Affinity MU which have utility as well. Ground Seal shuts off EE recursion/Snapcaster Mage and Stony Silence/Null Rod shut off equipment/EE.
For this MU make sure you have access to some of the general U hate we have: Choke/City of Solitude/Carpet of Flowers(not really hate but some Enchantress players, excluding myself, like it for the U MU's)/Dovescape. Also remember that Nevermore/Runed Halo/Solitary Confinement all shut off Jace 2.0. Since you're a Wishboard, perhaps Vexing Shusher might be a good addition.
Also don't forget that some Stoneblade players like to SB Surgical Extraction so be VERY CAREFUL about which cards you discard.
Ultimately for the Stoneblade MU I can offer you dozens of SB suggestions but really if you establish 1-2 Enchantress's or 1 of your hate cards you can typically fight through their counters and pull off a win. Its really just a matter of resolving those few vital cards.
I'm not really sure how I feel about your wincon. Sure, its cute, but once again we return to the "If you've drawn your entire library you can pick your wincon," argument. If I understand your combo correctly, basically you use Eureka to empty your hand, then quickly accelerate off your Enchantress's, draw your entire library, Spiritual Asylum to protect your lands/creatures, then drop Laboratory Maniac just before you draw your last card to win. At the point where you can draw your entire library, you can win anyway you choose. Heck, at this point you will have X lands on the field, nearly all your Enchantress's, and then you can just WoW to win that turn. Its a cute alternative for the mirror MU. However, please explain to me how this wins by Turn 4.
T1: Land, Growth.
T2: Land, T@ Growthland, Growth
T3: Cast Eureka, empty hand.
T4: Draw a card (assume its an Enchantment), cast, draw 1-3 cards (based on # of Enchantress's in hand) etc. I'll assume you all know the general tempo of this deck and won't continue with a goldfish turn.
Even under the best of circumstances such as I provided where you had an optimal hand and a nonreactive opponent, you can't win by T4. If Eureka activated Enchantress triggers, yeah, that'd be a different story, but to trigger Enchantress's you have to actually CAST the card. They can't be "cheated," into play.
Breaking this down, lets look at the fact that two of the cards you use for this, Laboratory Maniac and Spiritual Asylum, really have very little utility in general outside the combo. Yeah, the Asylum is cute for protecting our lands from Waste/Port/D&T, but realistically how often are we going to really need this for ANY MU? The Maniac is essentially a useless creature until the deck empties. Albeit your running a WISHboard so its not so bad as he isn't eating up deckspace however I've rarely found this deck ever having to go to time, let alone getting to the point where I couldn't end the game with a WoW/Sigil before the deck empties.
Anyway, I'll leave it off there. Please, feel free to respond to my arguments and perhaps point out your own playtesting. I'm mostly theorycrafting here.
Forlorn Egoist
That's a nice point... excuse me but what is "EE"? (LoL)
EE is Engineered ExplosivesQuote:
Originally Posted by Masamune
I've decided to pick up the Mirri's Guiles I need to build this deck (Paul Lynch's version, without the Moat, which I don't own), and I might play it if the metagame looks right at my local store.
I understand that Dredge, Maverick, and Zoo are fairly good matchups (from best to worst). ANT and Reanimator are terrible.
There's quite a bit of UW Stoneblade and RUG at my local store. Would you describe those decks as favorable, roughly even, or unfavorable for a decent (but not great) pilot (assume my hate includes maybe 3-4 Carpet of Flowers, but no City of Solitude and such)? What are the keys to those matchups?
Thanks!