[Deck] Dredge

You have to look at Entomb for what it is and not necessarily what it wants to do. There are intangibles that keep the deck glued together and the synergy these cards bring to the overall consistency of the deck.

Imp not only feeds Ichorid, but it allows you to timely drop the highest-dredging creature into your graveyard repeatedly, gives you a blocker, attacks, and feeds Therapy and Dread Return. These are all *incredibly* important traits that a deck like Dredge not only wants but needs as well.

Entomb offers nothing new in a deck that consistently is able to put its cards into the graveyard at an accelerated rate. Entomb has novelty, and that's really about it.

Entomb is what it is, but I fail to see its superiority over already proven staples of a long-running archetype.

My code is compiling, so here.
How to beat Tomord's Crypt with Dredge
The number one thing you have to remember with Dredge is how little it takes to kill the opponent. We forget because we're used to taking giant swings with Tarmogoyf or Batterskull, but 3-4 damage a turn from random damage sources is a fairly effective clock. Since all our eggs aren't in one single creature basket, it's very easy to race and occasionally chump with a Narcomoeba or something. Also a number of our creatures fly, which is super important. The other thing you have to remember is how scary Dredge is. A lot of people will blow their graveyard removal too early.

So, when they play Crypt, you mentally know you're gonna get Crypted. Your goal is to do a bunch of damage and establish as big a board presence as possible post-Crypt. The first goal would be to just kill them with some Zombies while they wait for Dread Return to go on the stack.
The second goal is to have as much of a graveyard as possible post-Crypt. What this means is being able to Dredge. If you binned your dredgers with Careful Study or Breakthrough, you're stuck! You need a discard outlet AND a dredger to get back into this game, and you probably need a draw spell to successfully race.

Here's the reason Putrid Imp and Tireless Tribe shine. What if you have one of them against a Crypt? The opponent has one of two options on the timing of your Dredge:
A) Blow Crypt in the upkeep after you've already discarded Troll. If you have another dredger in your hand, you discard it to Imp/Tribe and they've wasted their Crypt.
B) Blow Crypt up after you Dredge, usually in response to a Narcomoeba or Bridge from Below trigger. Fine, you get to Dredge. You've probably gotten to make a few guys. Discard another dredger and keep going off.

Obviously don't cast Bridge from Below with a Crypt on-board because they will crypt you in response to the Bridge from Below triggers and you'll lose the board presence you have in addition to not getting your Troll. As long as you can keep increasing your board, eventually they have to Crypt or die.

The goal when dredging is to minimize the damage they can do. Crypt effects don't really stop you, they just erase the work you've already done. Each Crypt effect basically counters a Careful Study/Breakthrough/Coliseum usage. The way you beat Crypt then is to dredge once or twice, entice them into blowing Crypt with some Zombies. Then you pitch a dredger to your Imp/Tribe, cast Careful Study, and win.

So why don't I board in Ancient Grudge against Tormod's Crypt?

We obviously can't cut any Tribes or Imps. They're, as established, the best card at fighting Crypt. I can't cut any of the 8 draw spells. Each one is a counterspell for a resolved Crypt. The lands, Bridges, Ichorids, Narcomoebas, dredgers, Therapies are all inviolate. What does that leave? I guess I could cut some Dread Returns, but that feels fairly loose.

How to beat Relic of Progenitus with Dredge
Relic is slightly easier than Crypt. If you see it coming you can Therapy it (most people won't hold onto Crypt for risk of Therapy, but on the play you can hit Relic).

Relic's ability to take a single card from the graveyard basically only matters when you discard your first card with Dredge. On upkeep you pitch a Dredger to Putrid Imp, they tap Relic targeting you, and you respond by pitching an irrelevant card. Then you play as if it were Crypt.

Obviously Relic makes the DDD plan un-viable and has similar problems with relying on Careful Study to discard dredgers.

It's definitely good, yet nothing new to play around artifact based graveyard hate like this.

It's also nothing new that Ancient Grudge greatly helps you win against someone who knows how to use his hate cards. I've won countless games only because I was able to destroy their hate before they had the chance to actually nuke lots of business.

Apart from that they destroy Batterskull and other potentially troublesome artifacts, so I don't see why one shouldn't have them in the board and actually board them in regularly.


And I regularly cut 1 DR, 1 Breakthrough and either 1 Ichorid, Cabal Therapy or a discard dork, depending on the matchup. That doesn't really dilute the deck too much and imho it's well worth the effort.

If it were so obvious, people wouldn't be cutting Tireless Tribe (who is better than Putrid Imp anyway) to play Faithless Looting.

I wouldn't board in Grudge just to beat Batterskull. And if I'm concerned about Cage, I'm not running Grudge either.

The whole point of playing against Tormod's Crypt is that you don't give them the chance to nuke lots of business. How many Bridges do you need to see to win?

Crypt and Relic are fading to give space to Surgical and (probably) Cage. That's why people are cutting Tireless Tribe. I've replaced them for Firestorm, but I don't believe Faithless Looting is worth the slot in LEDless Dredge.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mojeh

Crypt and Relic are fading to give space to Surgical and (probably) Cage. That's why people are cutting Tireless Tribe. I've replaced them for Firestorm, but I don't believe Faithless Looting is worth the slot in LEDless Dredge.

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I've been trying to test LEDless with Faithless Looting recently, and the results have been pleasant at the least. I'll be posting a list in the next few days, as I'll also be needing help with anything else that I might not have considered in building the list.

Kind Regards,
jares

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Anusien

If it were so obvious, people wouldn't be cutting Tireless Tribe (who is better than Putrid Imp anyway) to play Faithless Looting.

I wouldn't board in Grudge just to beat Batterskull. And if I'm concerned about Cage, I'm not running Grudge either.

The whole point of playing against Tormod's Crypt is that you don't give them the chance to nuke lots of business. How many Bridges do you need to see to win?

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None.
Also, the main reason I consider PImp better is it is black and has evasion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mojeh

Crypt and Relic are fading to give space to Surgical and (probably) Cage. That's why people are cutting Tireless Tribe. I've replaced them for Firestorm, but I don't believe Faithless Looting is worth the slot in LEDless Dredge.

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If it's well received, I'm planning on continuing with Bojuka Bog, Ravenous Trap and eventually Surgical Extraction, Extirpate and Grafbreaker's Cage. Gotta start with the fundamentals though.

After playing each week with other decks at my weekly legacy tournament ( including Goblins, DDfT, TES, Deadguy Ale, Affinity, Canadian Thresh and a couple of homebrews) it was time to bring Dredge once more, basicly just to say farewell to Firestorm and celebrate the addition of Faithless Looting.

As I'm not the best to tell an awesome report I'll make this as quick (yet as informative) as it can be.

Round 1: Spanish Inquisition

G1.: He leads with an USea and a Ponder, whily I go for DDD and discard a Troll ( I guess I should note that this guy has been playing Team America for about 2 months straight, so naturaly I expected TA again). On his second turn he drops a Fetchland and passed. I dredge into nothing and discard the Troll once again.
He combos off turn 3 and I'm kinda shocked, as I played it way to save, trying to avoid Daze / Wasteland and Fow all at once.

Sideboarding: None (I way playing with the LED board, thus no DR and no DR targets)

G2: I lead with a Putrid Imp, while he starts once again with a USea and a Ponder. On my second turn I resolve a Breakthrough and thats the end of the story.

G3: He leads with a Polluted Delta, while I got the classic PImp start. On his 2nd turn he thinks for a long time, whether or not he can kill me, but he decides to pass the turn. I look at the Breakthrough in my hand and believe that this game is over, however my Therapies decide to hide themselve in the deck so I just got a blind Therapy, naming Cabal Ritual ( I knew that he played DR + CR, so I thought that he hand CR + buissnes +x, meaning that he could have gone into his combo last turn, but decided to wait, due to the risk of missing a mana source). I hit it and he reveals a hand including Meditate, Cruel Bargain, Delta, Phyrexian Walker and Lotus Petal, so he could have gone into combo mode last turn and he even had a Lotus Petal to back it up, dunno why he didn't went for it ( note to his credit that he played the deck for the first time).
On his turn he casts a Meditate, yet he didn't find enough to keep the combo rolling, so he dies a turn later to both Ichorids and Zombies.

Round 2: Bant ( with Stoneforge and Geist)

G1: He leads with a Savanah, while I go for Tireless Tribe ( 1-off). He then drops a Stoneforge and searches for a Jitte. On my turn I activate Colliuseum, hit 3 Therapies and his Jitte, his KotR and his Geist are gone, leaving him with lands and a Sword of Feast and Famine. On his turn he drops another Stoneforge, but doesn't search for another Equipment. I return some Ichorids and he gets overwhelmed by the zombie horde.

Boarding: -1 Thug, -1 Ichorid, -2 Study +1 Darkblast + 3 Ancinet Grudge

G2: He drops a turn 2 Wheel of Sun and Moon and we are off to Game 3.

Boarding: +4 Natures Claim, - 1 Thug, - 1 Study - 1 Grudge -1 Tribe

G3: I have to mulligan and keep the nuts:City, Colliuseum, Troll, PImp, Claim and Grudge. He's dead by turn 3 (allthough he was able to topdeck another Wheel on his second turn).
After the game I saw his sideboard: 1 Wheel, 1 Bok and 3 Enlighted Tutor....

Round 3: TES

G1: I lead and proced to kill him on the second turn with Breakthrough.

Boarding: none

G2: I keep the following hand: PImp, Study, 2 Breakthrough, City, Ichroid, Bridge.
A bit risky, but I trust my luck enough :S. He leads with USea and Duress, taking away Study. I draw another City and drop PImp. He drops a Fetchland and plays another Duress, taking a Breakthrough. I draw a Therapy and play it, naming Infernal Tutor. He shows me a hand of Rite of Flame, Past in Flames, LED , Infernal. Nothing to scary, but I didn't have a clock, so it wasn't over at all. At this point I could have played the Breakthrough, in order to start dredging and overwhel him, however I'm greedy and hold it back, till I next turn, in order to cast it with 2 mana, or to maybe be lucky and draw a dredger. He rips a Thoughtseize and I look like an idiot. Well I guess I deserved to get punished for this missplay.
On my turn I still don't find another dredger, but my 3rd Land. However PImp still keeped hitting for 2 (as my graveyard currently contained Bridge, Ichorid, 2 Breakthrough, 1 Study, 1 Therapy and the fresh drawn land).
He draws nothing relevant and passes. I draw an Ichorid, attack and Ponder for a bit, until I decided to discard the 2nd Ichorid and flashback Therapy, saccing the PImp while gaining a Zombie token. Therapy takes Past in Flames away, missplay no.2, and he reaveals an Chrome Mox as his fresh drawn card.
So why did I saced the PImp ? On the one hand I had enough black creatures to recure one Ichorid twice, ensuring to win against him in two turns. However I could have waited with this at least another turn ( simply feeding the 2nd Ichorid bevor I feed the PImp), yet his hand looked strong enough for a possible kill on his turn, so I decided to play it save. However taking Past in Flames was ofc the wrong card, as I should have taken LED.
He draws, plays a Brainstorm and passes.
I recure Ichorid, draw Firestorm and attack for 5 and let Ichorid die raising the zombie count up to 2. EOT he Fetches, going to 6 life.
On his turn he trys to combo of via Pastin Flames, but he misses 1 mana and I kill him next turn.

Later we talk a bit about the game, the misstakes we both made and how he threw away the win.

Round 4: Bant ( this time without Stoneforges or Geists, but with Snapcaster Mage)

G1: He drops a turn 2 Ooze, but I get to Firestomr it and proceed to overwhelm him with Ichorids and zombies.

Boarding: +2 Grudge ( at this time I thought that he had Stoneforges) +1 Darkbalst +2 Coffin Purdge, - 1 Thug -1 Ichorid -2 Study -1 Tribe

G2: He hass to mulligan to 6, doesn't find hate and dies on my 4th turn.


So that was the last tournament bevor the release of Faithless Looting, I'll miss Firestorm, but on the other hand I finally get to play LED Dredge once more, hell yeah :D.

On Sunday I'll be at Iserlohn and there we'll see how LED Dredge holds up against Cage and other shit.

Untill then.

cheers

Felidae_

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Felidae

On Sunday I'll be at Iserlohn and there we'll see how LED Dredge holds up against Cage and other shit.

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Oh Gods I have a bad feeling. Here's what I think will happen:
Round 1 Mirror against either: You,Necro,K1w1, Timo, Dennis, Brot_Ohne_Kruste or Julian or some random guy.
Round 2 Mirror repeat
Round3 Mirror repeat
Round 4 Mirror repeat
Round 5 Mirror repeat
Round 6 Mirror repeat

Worst-case scenario^^

LOL... actually that could really happen. :laugh:

Haha, oh yes, this will be funny :laugh:

Let's see who wins the tourney :laugh:

Lol, better pack some Leyline of the Voids german people.

I've playtested against my friend, who plays UW Stoneblade CounterTop (feat Snapcaster, Stoneforge, CounterTop, Jace 2,0 and other things... Don't know how can he make a deck with that many unpleasant cards.)

Ok, seems to be a pretty good matchup.

Hmm, let's look at his sideboard:
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Enlighted Tutor
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Crafdigger's Cage
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Humility

3 letters: WTF?

We played like 20~25 matches, and I won 55~60% of them. (I usually win 70%+ against UW variants).

The games went all the same: G1 I just roll him over, no big news. G2 and G3 is just crossing fingers and hope he doesn't get double GY-hate (or just a single Enlightned Tutor), and you still have to combo turn 1. Or you can get your Chain of Vapor/Ingot Chewer in opening hand, and still have the goodies.

I was using this decklist:

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Undiscovered Paradise

4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Ichorid
1 Sun Titan
1 Flame-kin Zealot

4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return

SB: 4 Chain of Vapor
SB: 3 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Ingot Chewer
SB: 2 Purify the Grave
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Terastodon
SB: 1 Coffin Purge
SB: 1 Tarnished Citadel

Dredge, as a deck and concept, is very fragile. You'll often lose to stupid budget deck that plays 4 Crypt, 4 Relic and 4 Surgical in his sideboard, only because he hate Zombies and Horrors.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vandalize

Lol, better pack some Leyline of the Voids german people.

I've playtested against my friend, who plays UW Stoneblade CounterTop (feat Snapcaster, Stoneforge, CounterTop, Jace 2,0 and other things... Don't know how can he make a deck with that many unpleasant cards.)

Ok, seems to be a pretty good matchup.

Hmm, let's look at his sideboard:
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Enlighted Tutor
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Crafdigger's Cage
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Humility

3 letters: WTF?

We played like 20~25 matches, and I won 55~60% of them. (I usually win 70%+ against UW variants).

The games went all the same: G1 I just roll him over, no big news. G2 and G3 is just crossing fingers and hope he doesn't get double GY-hate (or just a single Enlightned Tutor), and you still have to combo turn 1. Or you can get your Chain of Vapor/Ingot Chewer in opening hand, and still have the goodies.

I was using this decklist:

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Undiscovered Paradise

4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Ichorid
1 Sun Titan
1 Flame-kin Zealot

4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return

SB: 4 Chain of Vapor
SB: 3 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Ingot Chewer
SB: 2 Purify the Grave
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Terastodon
SB: 1 Coffin Purge
SB: 1 Tarnished Citadel

Dredge, as a deck and concept, is very fragile. You'll often lose to stupid budget deck that plays 4 Crypt, 4 Relic and 4 Surgical in his sideboard, only because he hate Zombies and Horrors.

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So basicly...you are complaining that you have a slightly positive matchup against a deck that runs ( after boarding), 8 StPs, 6 Extraction, 4 E-tutor into hate, 5 artifact and 1 Enchantment hate? Seriously?:D
Edit: Not to mention Batterskull.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vandalize

Lol, better pack some Leyline of the Voids german people.

I've playtested against my friend, who plays UW Stoneblade CounterTop (feat Snapcaster, Stoneforge, CounterTop, Jace 2,0 and other things... Don't know how can he make a deck with that many unpleasant cards.)

Ok, seems to be a pretty good matchup.

Hmm, let's look at his sideboard:
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Enlighted Tutor
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Crafdigger's Cage
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Humility

3 letters: WTF?

We played like 20~25 matches, and I won 55~60% of them. (I usually win 70%+ against UW variants).

The games went all the same: G1 I just roll him over, no big news. G2 and G3 is just crossing fingers and hope he doesn't get double GY-hate (or just a single Enlightned Tutor), and you still have to combo turn 1. Or you can get your Chain of Vapor/Ingot Chewer in opening hand, and still have the goodies.

I was using this decklist:

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Undiscovered Paradise

4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Ichorid
1 Sun Titan
1 Flame-kin Zealot

4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return

SB: 4 Chain of Vapor
SB: 3 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Ingot Chewer
SB: 2 Purify the Grave
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Terastodon
SB: 1 Coffin Purge
SB: 1 Tarnished Citadel

Dredge, as a deck and concept, is very fragile. You'll often lose to stupid budget deck that plays 4 Crypt, 4 Relic and 4 Surgical in his sideboard, only because he hate Zombies and Horrors.

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i did a lot of playtests this weekend against UW stoneblade too, and had about the same win percentage (a bit more but that's because he wasn't very experienced). And i noticed the same thing. A lot of newer players run a lot of gravehate because they hate reanimator and dredge a lot. And double hate is often game for us... or it's just my lack of experience. I've faced double relic/double crypt or crypt+relic often enough this weekend.

i like your list btw, only that i like 2-3 careful study maindeck for more dig game 2 and more keepable hands.

The main reason packing 15 hatecards againt dredge is a bad idea is that you ain't gonna be able to race a Narcomoeba. A lot of the times, that is. My opponent is welcome to keep a hand of double surgical, Relic, Crypt, Land imo. Makes dork beatdown an actual win con.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

The main reason packing 15 hatecards againt dredge is a bad idea is that you ain't gonna be able to race a Narcomoeba. A lot of the times, that is. My opponent is welcome to keep a hand of double surgical, Relic, Crypt, Land imo. Makes dork beatdown an actual win con.

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haha true, but if you play against burn or stoneblade with delvers, and they drop double crypt, delver, stoneforge batterskull or the burn player burns you low and tpdecks some dammage...
all my opponents only sided 4 cards against dredge but they got lucky i guess :p otherwise the games that they only had one piece of hate they lost.

btw guys, there's some discussion that zoo, RUG delver, ANT, spiral tide are all bad matchups for dredge. In my experience RUG delver is beatable, and ANT and spiral tide are decks we can potentially race. Zoo is another matchup i often won, they can bolt their own creatures and cantry to race you but it's not an unbeatable matchup?

is this guy right? are the players i test against really that bad? i mean, he says he loses from about anything except junk, affinity and nic fit. with a looting list...
can you maybe inform me a bit more about these matchups, what do you think about them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AEnesidem

haha true, but if you play against burn or stoneblade with delvers, and they drop double crypt, delver, stoneforge batterskull or the burn player burns you low and tpdecks some dammage...
all my opponents only sided 4 cards against dredge but they got lucky i guess :p otherwise the games that they only had one piece of hate they lost.

btw guys, there's some discussion that zoo, RUG delver, ANT, spiral tide are all bad matchups for dredge. In my experience RUG delver is beatable, and ANT and spiral tide are decks we can potentially race. Zoo is another matchup i often won, they can bolt their own creatures and cantry to race you but it's not an unbeatable matchup?

is this guy right? are the players i test against really that bad? i mean, he says he loses from about anything except junk, affinity and nic fit. with a looting list...
can you maybe inform me a bit more about these matchups, what do you think about them.

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We don't really know the exact MUs but Nic Fit is probably the worst matchup ever. I don't see myself ever having trouble beating zoo tho. Or current Maverick lists. The combo matchup is about even if you play with LEDs. RUG Delver isn't a deck over here, so I don't know.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AEnesidem

haha true, but if you play against burn or stoneblade with delvers, and they drop double crypt, delver, stoneforge batterskull or the burn player burns you low and tpdecks some dammage...
all my opponents only sided 4 cards against dredge but they got lucky i guess :p otherwise the games that they only had one piece of hate they lost.

btw guys, there's some discussion that zoo, RUG delver, ANT, spiral tide are all bad matchups for dredge. In my experience RUG delver is beatable, and ANT and spiral tide are decks we can potentially race. Zoo is another matchup i often won, they can bolt their own creatures and cantry to race you but it's not an unbeatable matchup?

is this guy right? are the players i test against really that bad? i mean, he says he loses from about anything except junk, affinity and nic fit. with a looting list...
can you maybe inform me a bit more about these matchups, what do you think about them.

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ANT/TES/PIF: Hven't been able to test the LED-Lootings list a lot against it, but even without those it's about 40/60 to 50/50. Hard to say, really, because everything that really counts are the coin flip and mulligans. It should be slightly in their favor I guess, although my personal record is positive. MD Iona helps here (one of the few matchups).

Spiral Tide: Slower than ANT, but has a few counters. All in all it should be slightly in our favor. Maindecked Iona should increase your win-% by aout 5% alone. Therapying against them is pretty easy and always effective.

RUG Delver: You have to practise this matchup a lot. Basically you just don't blindly run into their permission (rather try to render it useless) and win. Post board Extractiond plus Snapcaster can ruin your day and the matchup swings in their favor. Pre board (if you play well) 70-30 in your favor and post board about 60-40 for them.

Zoo: Actually one of our best matchups, I really don't know what your friend thinks. They can shoot their creatures, true, but after all they can't really interact and have neither Wasteland or counter spells. Exactly the kind of deck we just steamroll. Pre board about 80 in our favor I daresay. Post board depends, but as they usually don't have too much hate and no counters to protect it it should be still in your favor.



And everyone: play Careful Study. No matter in what build. It will increase all win% by a lot.