[Deck] Turbo Depths

from my build.

I board 2x Surgical (AK, plow, shuffles for terminus. You dont need 3. kind of a blank draw if you draw too many.), 1x Needle (JTMS, EE, Teferi, Azcanta, etc no more top. you only really need to see 1 to stop jace.), 2x Lili, 1 Library, 2x Blossom, +2 Duress, +Choke, (11)

- Maze, -2 Depths (Awful to draw in multiples, card gets stuck in hand, games go long enough to naturally draw into it. they surgical this anyways immediately if you combo), -2 Wasteland (hitting their 2 tundras and volcanics? garbage), -3 Diamond (Bad Topdeck. Card disadvantage,), -2 Scrying(you'll draw naturally due to how long games are. relying more on your enchantments anyways), -1 Loam (if you crushed em g1. you can keep it if you feel like you can cheese them. you can cut the 3rd wasteland if you want here instead). GQ is good b/c you can stage copy GQs and ghost em off white and just overall better than wasteland. making them shuffle away terminus or strip mine is also amusing.

For discard priority.> Jace/Permission to resolve your 2 drop.>Snapcaster.Mentor>The rest. Plow is very low on the discard priorities unless you only have bob and need it to live. lot of times you can discard a CA/Creature and have em plow a hexmage/bob and then you can surgical the rest. Leaving plows stuck in the hand is great while you develop your mana/hand. For reference. Ive won a game where I seized my opp's hand and saw 3x Plow, Purge,+EE. I took the EE and slammed a choke and easily won. Enchantments are so key to winning. As long as Miracles cannot run away with JTMS, they can cantrip all they want.

(I notice I made a mistake on my previous post: obviously, I board OUT a Wasteland and IN a Needle. I also notice you have a Maze in your list: I missed that and I must have a mistake in my MTGO version, I’d have boarded that out otherwise)

There a lot I’d normally want to argue with your post, but obviously it’d be dumb considering I’m coming for advice. It just never occurred to me to remove half of my win conditions, however much I’m aware of Surgical, and a third of my tutors. You basically board in stuff I’d usually consider against combo (Surgical, Duress), and go for the long game, while I considered the longer the grind went, the poorer things went for Depths. The only thing I would say is that you leave little to deal with Karakas, but then I guess either you end up getting GQ or the remaining Wasteland, or you win with an alternate wincon.

Thanks a bunch for taking the time, I’d definitely give the SB plan a try (and obviously try to play accordingly).

Solnox, the Miracles SB advice is very useful, thanks!

I can't find a recent sideboarding guide. If you get a chance, could you give me a basic in/out for Delver and Grixis Control? These are by far the most prevalent decks in my meta.

Miracles has way too many easy ways to deal with lage. You are trying to overload them on multiple ways. Plows are no longer end all be all. Duress/surgical gives info which is very important for the MU. Karakas is not common in miracles. if they do have it. the GQ is good enough. If you can prevent jtms from taking over. you can definitely play the long game. cantrips dont put them up on cards. Jace and AK do.

Miracles is one of the reasons i play Cabal Therapy. The flashback can really open up windows to get your key spells to resolve (library, choke, tutors) and protect lage from swords.

On the Contrary. I believe miracles is a reason why you SHOULDNT play cabal therapy. You cannot afford to miss in the early turns. Their mix of removal from EE, CJ, Purge Etc paired with Brainstorm makes therapy a risky proposition. missing twice where you should have hit at least one spell is backbreaking. Even if they brainstorm in response to duress/etc, you still get something.

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On the Contrary. I believe miracles is a reason why you SHOULDNT play cabal therapy. You cannot afford to miss in the early turns. Their mix of removal from EE, CJ, Purge Etc paired with Brainstorm makes therapy a risky proposition. missing twice where you should have hit at least one spell is backbreaking. Even if they brainstorm in response to duress/etc, you still get something.

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did you test khalni garden main *3 at least ? with cabal therapy it is awesome also it protects from edict. I am fine with my list right now, went 3-1-1 in last tornament 2-0 grixis control 1-2 dragon stompy 2-1 UWR delver with maindeck path 2-0 grixis control then id to top8 and lost to infect 1-2 missplayed +bad luck he had a needle on g3 on stage and couldn't find a vampire or lib or decay while seeing more than 25 cards.

On the contrary for those playing with confidant I don't think it is good it takes all the removals from opponents which are usually dead cards against us, push, bolt, command ... Looking at the top decks miracle/grixis/shadow all these cards would be dead other way


// 60 Maindeck
// 7 Artifact
4 Expedition Map
3 Pithing Needle

// 4 Creature
4 Vampire Hexmage

// 4 Enchantment
4 Sylvan Library

// 4 Instant
4 Crop Rotation

// 27 Land
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
4 Blooming Marsh
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe
2 Maze of Ith
3 Khalni Garden
4 Llanowar Wastes

// 14 Sorcery
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Sylvan Scrying
3 Duress


// 15 Sideboard
// 3 Creature
SB: 3 Sylvan Safekeeper

// 9 Instant
SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction

// 1 Land
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog

// 2 Sorcery
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge

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Their mix of removal from EE, CJ, Purge Etc paired with Brainstorm makes therapy a risky proposition. missing twice where you should have hit at least one spell is backbreaking. Even if they brainstorm in response to duress/etc, you still get something.

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I have built my list to take full advantage of Therapy. GSZ + Dryad Arbor maindeck, 3 extra creatures (Confidants.) I am also very comfortable with blind naming with Therapy (a rollover from playing a ton of Nic Fit.) I name what I lose to and get to see their hand; if they have something else I can't beat that's where Verdant/GSZ finds Arbor to flash it back. It doesn't make the matchup any worse, at the least it's on-par with Duress. If I had a choice of having 2 Thoughtseize or Thoughtseize/Therapy in hand I would take Therapy any day of the week. Having multiple discard spells happens quite a bit and Therapy rewards that. Why do I fear Engineered Explosives or Council's Judgment? Not really relevant in most cases. Much more likely to face Jace/Terminus/StP. Those are the cards I look for g1. Purge is a new monster out of the board against Depths for sure.

Against miracles a t1 Therapy I blind-name:

G1 On the play (blind matchup): Brainstorm
G2 on the play: Swords to Plowshares
G1/G2 on the draw: Swords to Plowshares (if I recognize them correctly, t1 blue fetch could be a lot of decks.)

TL;DR - My experience with Therapy has been overwhelmingly positive, I feel pretty comfortable blind-naming and the upside of doubling up with multiple discards/Arbor can provide a window to get there.

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On the contrary for those playing with confidant I don't think it is good it takes all the removals from opponents which are usually dead cards against us, push, bolt, command ... Looking at the top decks miracle/grixis/shadow all these cards would be dead other way

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Confidant has been one of the *best* cards in my list for quite some time. It helps significantly in the D&T and Miracles matchups and doesn't hurt against the good matchups. Delver decks can pretend that bolting Confidant is progressing their game; for me a bolt in hand means another card isn't there. Yes it turns on low-level removal, so what? Ye olde 'it doth perish to removal good chap' argument is bullshit.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/612794#online

Yes I have. I had probe and even then I hated therapy and Khalni garden. Drawing the 1 of Bog and steppe are already bad enough and adding more CITP lands is an easy way to get yourself run over by other combo decks. Edicts are not a problem when you have safekeeper, bobs, blossom, discard.

Looking at your list, EE +CJ is good at removing needles+Library+bobs (without burning plows).

Confidant vs Miracles is remove or lose. A confidant that eats a plow is one less plow for Marit Lage and a plow that can be surgicaled later.

An unchecked confidant +safekeeper is basically GG for them if they cannot find terminus or a way to get on board like mentor.

confidant is better than map (it bascially takes this spot) against miracle and death and taxes but it is worse against fast decks like tempo decks, eldrazi, grixis control and not playing needle but wasteland is bad against them either.
These matchups become way worse. All the fast tempo/agro decks become more complicated.

Just hit the 9th 5-0 of the season with my build.

Beat C/G Post, Miracles, UW Legendblade (Joe Lossett), Junk (bob,plow,lili,wasteland,karakas), and Zombardment (so many lingering souls)

Surprisingly Zombardment was the hardest matchup here.

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Originally Posted by adrieng

confidant is better than map (it bascially takes this spot) against miracle and death and taxes but it is worse against fast decks like tempo decks, eldrazi, grixis control and not playing needle but wasteland is bad against them either.
These matchups become way worse. All the fast tempo/agro decks become more complicated.

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I'm not sure I'd say "complicated" rather than plain more "difficult". They're either fast enough and there's little you can do, or they're not and there's little they can do, but they have a bad tendency to be fast enough. I sure have found myself in a situation where I had found all the cards I needed but was missing a turn when facing a flipped Delver and a Wasteland... I have learned to mulligan better against these decks, and thankfully, some of these players still think they have time to tap their Wastland for a Goyf turn 2. :tongue:

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Originally Posted by Alfy

I'm not sure I'd say "complicated" rather than plain more "difficult". They're either fast enough and there's little you can do, or they're not and there's little they can do, but they have a bad tendency to be fast enough. I sure have found myself in a situation where I had found all the cards I needed but was missing a turn when facing a flipped Delver and a Wasteland... I have learned to mulligan better against these decks, and thankfully, some of these players still think they have time to tap their Wastland for a Goyf turn 2. :tongue:

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Are you still playing Needles maindeck? I have seen a fairly big shift from using Needles to using Wastelands in the Mox Diamond lists. The Delver decks lean on Wasteland hard in the Depths matchup because you can just make land drops and combo them without playing a spell. Add in Needles and discard and it becomes very hard to fight a 20/20 flyer. Taking Needles out of the mix significantly changes the matchup from favorable to even, at least from what I can observe (I won't drop Needles, not unless someone makes a very compelling case.) Playing your own Wastelands is much more hit/miss in the format right now than Needle. Almost every deck has something Needle can name, not every deck is susceptible to Wasteland. As an answer to problematic lands (Karakas, Wasteland) Needle is far and away superior because its a permanent effect that doesn't cost you a land drop (in a lands-based combo deck.......) I can see the reasoning to become better against some decks, but giving up percentages against one of the better matchups (Delver) doesn't seem smart to me.

using your land drop to fight wasteland is fine and your gameplan is much more fair anyways. Delver no longer has DRS which makes deploying threats, cantrips and holding up wasteland a lot harder. The land drop is uncounterable anyways and you can board in needles.

Good news!

A Dark Depths list doing 1st position in a very big (more than 300 players) tournament.

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=20654&f=LE

Did anyone tested winter orb i side ? He seems to be playing two of them for which matchups ? control I guess ?

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Originally Posted by adrieng

Did anyone tested winter orb i side ? He seems to be playing two of them for which matchups ? control I guess ?

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It seems like a 'gotcha' card, just like Choke, but not as good. It has synergy with Mox Diamond, which is pretty cool. I can't picture the right situation where it would be better than Choke, maybe against Lands?

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Originally Posted by solnox

using your land drop to fight wasteland is fine and your gameplan is much more fair anyways. Delver no longer has DRS which makes deploying threats, cantrips and holding up wasteland a lot harder. The land drop is uncounterable anyways and you can board in needles.

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There's a big loss of tempo, though. Needle can come in any turn; fighting Wasteland with Wasteland not only takes a turn longer, it forces you to spend more time with colourless mana on board and forces your sequencing. The plan also gets considerably worst when having to fight more than one Wasteland. Of course, I'll admit it's also a dead card when not facing Wasteland, but considering the card is the main source of hate out there...

I'm still on your list, waiting to meet Miracles to try out the sideboarding matrix you described, and in the meanwhile, I have to say I have found the tempo/Wasteland matchups fairly rough.

DAICHI AKIMOTO’S GOLGARI DEPTHS
GRAND PRIX SHIZUOKA 2018 (LEGACY) - 14TH


DECKLIST
Creature (9)
4 Vampire Hexmage
3 Dark Confidant
2 Sylvan Safekeeper
Sorcery (13)
2 Life from the Loam
2 Sylvan Scrying
2 Duress
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
Instant (8)
1 Assassin's Trophy
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Crop Rotation
Artifact (3)
3 Mox Diamond
Enchantment (2)
2 Sylvan Library
Land (25)
1 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Bayou
3 Wasteland
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
60 Cards
Sideboard (15)
1 Assassin's Trophy
1 Dread of Night
1 Engineered Plague
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Rancor
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Karakas
2 Choke
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Steely Resolve
2 Bitterblossom

(from 9th to 16th decklists
Top 8 decklists are still not available)

Enviado desde mi WAS-LX1A mediante Tapatalk

I think we really need to discuss the elephant in the room: is Mox Diamond now the correct mana acceleration in Turbo Depths? The only lists placing well lately are on the Diamond plan, with most lists playing maindeck removal like Abrupt Decay, Assassin's Trophy, or both. Pithing Needle has really fallen off the radar screen as well, possibly due to the lower number of decks using Wasteland.