4 Card Blind

Me: silkster: Mountain, Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame, Barbed Shocker

1. Asthereal (TO): Swamp, Swamp, Blackmail, Porcelain Legionnaire 3 points
2. dte: Hickory Woodlot, Channel, Hand of Emrakul, Nantuko Tracer 6 points
3. Reeplcheep: Vault of Whispers, Orzhov Basilica, Peppersmoke, Extricator of Sin 6 points (I can't believe someone made use of delerium)
4. FTW: Strip Mine, Plains, Knight of Sursi, Knight of Sursi 4 points (cause one suspended knight can eventually block)
5. alphastryk: Swamp, Swamp, Blackmail, Porcelain Legionnaire 3 points (You remember correctly. I played Barbed Shocker in round 11 of season 6.)
7. Wrath of Pie: Strip Mine, Island, Phantasmal Bear, Phantasmal Bear 3 points
8. H: Rushwood Grove, Vine Trellis, Elephant Ambush, Acorn Harvest 3 points (Nice flashbacks!)
9. GoblinSmashmaster: Hickory Woodlot, Channel, Eldrazi Devastator, Porcelain Legionnaire 6 points
10. maxx!: Forest, Tinder Farm, Reclaim, Anurid Scavenger 6 points
11. Tylert: Swamp, Chronomaton, Wretched banquet, Unearth 3 points

10 otp wins, 4 otd wins, 1 draw = 43 points. This round was real easy to score, so I kept it compact. I thought people might play Knight of Sursi, but I didn't realize until just now that I go WD against it. :)

I would have played this sooner, but I was worried about Mental Misstep and Force of Will. I was hoping that my deck last week and FTW's astute observation that Knight of Old Benalia was the real winner would keep the Forces of Will at bay and they did, though there weren't as many slow decks as I was hoping for.

Anurid Scavenger is a card I've been trying to make work for quite some time now, but I was trying to recycle removal and it was getting too clunky. This version doesn't seem threat heavy enough, but I haven't looked at the math yet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FTW

I didn't want to spoil this before but Strip Mine, Plains, and 2 copies of the 3/3 Knight would have dominated the last round. I tried the next best thing.
Wrath's might be even better without Suspend (e.g. he can block Shocker and then play the 2nd Bear to win).

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It turns out that the two life points it takes to cast Porcelain Legionnaire was the big boost you got over Phantasmal Bears. Who'd have thought?

My prediction for round 3 was that people would play around Strip Mine, but that people wouldn't play it. So I decided to go big, and I was so relieved that I didn't get stripped (and regretting not playing around Path) that I forgot to notice how good Strip Mine would have been. I mean, I knew I was weak to it, but somehow didn't notice the theme. I also thought I got to crush Storage-Land deck this week, but I forgot about Flashback, which is hilarious because I basically played that last week. derp :laugh:

Things broke really well for me this round, and I still lost to FTW, who "just" played a "simple" deck that "looked obvious". I thought that exposing the lack of Strip Mine last week would prompt more people to play it this week or at least play around it. FTW made a good call that I don't think I could have made.

PS: The Chronomaton vs. Rushwood Grove math looks like a nightmare.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by silkster

Things broke really well for me this round, and I still lost to FTW, who "just" played a "simple" deck that "looked obvious". I thought that exposing the lack of Strip Mine last week would prompt more people to play it this week or at least play around it. FTW made a good call that I don't think I could have made.

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Funny, I was going off your comment that you couldn't find a Strip Mine deck that did better than 50%.

With that plus Strip Mine's poor performance in the past, the high performance of your storage land deck, and some other factors, I thought it would tempt people to forget playing around Strip Mine and go big. Looks like that happened.

You smartly went for a turn 1 deck to play around both. Barbed Shocker is a scary turn 1 deck. Looks like Empty will remain legal without Rite, in case anyone finds another creative way to smash with goblins.

Me: silkster: Vault of Whispers, Orzhov Basilica, Peppersmoke, Extricator of Sin

1. Asthereal (TO): Swamp, Swamp, Blackmail, Porcelain Legionnaire
You need to take one of my lands to not lose, so if I hide or play vault you must leave me with peppersmoke for the draw. 2-2

2. dte: Hickory Woodlot, Channel, Hand of Emrakul, Nantuko Tracer
Annihilator is oof. 0-6

3. Reeplcheep: Vault of Whispers, Orzhov Basilica, Peppersmoke, Extricator of Sin
Me.

4. FTW: Strip Mine, Plains, Knight of Sursi, Knight of Sursi
I had trouble finding good strip mine threats. Missed this one. 0-6

5. alphastryk: Swamp, Swamp, Blackmail, Porcelain Legionnaire
You need to take one of my lands to not lose, so if I hide or play vault you must leave me with peppersmoke for the draw. 2-2

6. silkster: Mountain, Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame, Barbed Shocker
The banning of Great Furnace really hurts me here. 0-6

7. Wrath of Pie: Strip Mine, Island, Phantasmal Bear, Phantasmal Bear
2 threats, 1 removal 0-6

8. H: Rushwood Grove, Vine Trellis, Elephant Ambush, Acorn Harvest
Combat tricks make it incredibly hard for you to block profitably. I believe I kill you before you can make enough 3/3s to block well. Possibility space is very large though so I would appreciate confirmation. 6-0 Edit: If I blow peppersmoke to flip then trellis can block w/o fear. 2-2

9. GoblinSmashmaster: Hickory Woodlot, Channel, Eldrazi Devastator, Porcelain Legionnaire
I am a full turn faster at dealing 10 than you are at dealing 20, not including chumps. Thus we standoff. 2-2
This disagrees with the above, can someone else confirm the math? Edit: just don't play the legionaire 0-6

10. maxx!: Forest, Tinder Farm, Reclaim, Anurid Scavenger
You can only get the frog back every third turn. Thus you die to 3/5 vigilant beats eventually. 6-0

11. Tylert: Swamp, Chronomaton, Wretched banquet, Unearth
Chronomaton #2 beats my token. 0-6.

2W 6D for 20. Better than last week at least.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reeplcheep

Me: silkster: Vault of Whispers, Orzhov Basilica, Peppersmoke, Extricator of Sin

9. GoblinSmashmaster: Hickory Woodlot, Channel, Eldrazi Devastator, Porcelain Legionnaire
I am a full turn faster at dealing 10 than you are at dealing 20, not including chumps. Thus we standoff. 2-2
This disagrees with the above, can someone else confirm the math?

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You had me at "me: silkster".

Let's check the math on this.

Reep OTP
R - Vault
G - Tapped Woodlot

R - Tapped Basilica (no legal targets to Peppersmoke yet)
G - Channel Devastator. [G=12]

R - Tap out for Extricator, sacrificing Vault. Create 3/2 token. (Types= artifact, land)
G - Attack for 8 trample [R=12]

No need to pay life for Porcelain yet if it just dies to Peppersmoke.
Now you're in a bind. You have to waste Peppersmoke to flip Extricator, otherwise an 8/9 trample easily races a 3/2 when you're both at 12. But once you cast Peppersmoke, he can cast Porcelain Legionnaire to block.

R - Missed Delirium trigger before you get priority. Attack with 3/2. [G=9]
G - Attack for 8. If you Peppersmoke to reduce this by 1 damage, he gets postcombat Legionnaire a turn earlier, which seems worse for you. Instead you take 8 and Peppersmoke EOT [R=4]

R - Delirium (Artifact, land, tribal, instant). Transform into 3/5. Attack with 3/5 vigilance and 3/2 vigilance. [G=3]
G - Attack for 8 trample. You must absorb at least 5, so the 3/5 blocks. [R=1] Postcombat Legionnaire. [G=1]

R - No profitable attacks into 3/1 first strike.
G - Attack for 8 trample = lethal.

It's close. It comes down to you needing to cast Peppersmoke proactively to flip Extricator of Sin, which lets him deploy Legionnaire after.


OTD you probably lose worse.
The only difference is you could choose to burn Peppersmoke earlier to speed up your clock, but then Legionnaire comes out earlier too.
G - Tapped Woodlot
R - Vault

G - Channel Devastator. [G=12]
R - Peppersmoke it. Basilica

G - Attack for 8 trample [R=12] Porcelain Legionnaire. [G=10]
R - Tap out for Extricator, sacrificing Vault. Create 3/2 token. (Types= artifact, land, instant, tribal)

G - Attack for 8 trample and 3 first strike. [R=1]
R - Delirum. Transform into 3/5. Attack for 6 vigilance. [G=4]

G - Attack for 8 trample and 3 first strike. You can absorb max 8 and take 3 trample. [R=-2]
That doesn't work either.

LL 0-6

Quote:

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Originally Posted by silkster

PS: The Chronomaton vs. Rushwood Grove math looks like a nightmare.

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I'm currently stuck on that :)

1. Asthereal (TO): Swamp, Swamp, Blackmail, Porcelain Legionnaire
2. dte: Hickory Woodlot, Channel, Hand of Emrakul, Nantuko Tracer
3. Reeplcheep: Vault of Whispers, Orzhov Basilica, Peppersmoke, Extricator of Sin
4. FTW: Strip Mine, Plains, Knight of Sursi, Knight of Sursi
5. alphastryk: Swamp, Swamp, Blackmail, Porcelain Legionnaire
6. silkster: Mountain, Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame, Barbed Shocker
7. Wrath of Pie: Strip Mine, Island, Phantasmal Bear, Phantasmal Bear
8. H: Rushwood Grove, Vine Trellis, Elephant Ambush, Acorn Harvest
9. GoblinSmashmaster: Hickory Woodlot, Channel, Eldrazi Devastator, Porcelain Legionnaire
10. maxx!: Forest, Tinder Farm, Reclaim, Anurid Scavenger
11. Tylert: Swamp, Chronomaton, Wretched banquet, Unearth

1. Asthereal: OTD, I'll hide swamp. You take banquet and chronomaton Kills you. OTP, Chronomaton kills you. 6-0 --> 6
2. dte: Can't just play nothing due to tracer. 0-6 --> 6
3. Reeplcheep: Being able to bring back chrono blocks all your hopes. 6-0 --> 12
4. FTW: Your knights will come into play before I kill you. 0-6 --> 12
5. Alphastryk: Same as asthereal. 6-0 --> 18
6. Silkster: We both win OTP 3-3 --> 21
7. Wrath of pie. Strip mine again :( 0-6 --> 21
8. H: If I take Chrono to 7/7 You'll never have enough power in play to Kill it because you'll have to chump before. 6-0 --> 27.
T1 = Chrono. Grove.
T2 = C2. G1
T3 = C3. G2
T4 = C4. Vine trellis.
T5 = C5. G1.
T6 = C6. G2.
T7 = Att Y13. G3.
T8 = Att Y6. Harvest.
T9 = Att chump. G1.
T10 = Att Chump. Harvest Y3.
T11 = Att chump. G1.
T12 = ...
staring with squirrelks or elephants leads to the same result.
9. Goblinsmash master: Same as dte, the second body saves you. 0-6 --> 27
10. maxx!: I can Grow chronomaton to 20/20, use banquet and kill you in one shot. 6-0 --> 33.
11. Me.

Total: 33 points. I beat the two decks I was aiming at: Blackmail decks. But people are way to much into 4CB and are going deep to find cool decks so only 33 Points !

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FTW

You had me at "me: silkster".

Let's check the math on this.

Reep OTP
R - Vault
G - Tapped Woodlot

R - Tapped Basilica (no legal targets to Peppersmoke yet)
G - Channel Devastator. [G=12]

R - Tap out for Extricator, sacrificing Vault. Create 3/2 token. (Types= artifact, land)
G - Attack for 8 trample [R=12]

No need to pay life for Porcelain yet if it just dies to Peppersmoke.
Now you're in a bind. You have to waste Peppersmoke to flip Extricator, otherwise an 8/9 trample easily races a 3/2 when you're both at 12. But once you cast Peppersmoke, he can cast Porcelain Legionnaire to block.

R - Missed Delirium trigger before you get priority. Attack with 3/2. [G=9]
G - Attack for 8. If you Peppersmoke to reduce this by 1 damage, he gets postcombat Legionnaire a turn earlier, which seems worse for you. Instead you take 8 and Peppersmoke EOT [R=4]

R - Delirium (Artifact, land, tribal, instant). Transform into 3/5. Attack with 3/5 vigilance and 3/2 vigilance. [G=3]
G - Attack for 8 trample. You must absorb at least 5, so the 3/5 blocks. [R=1] Postcombat Legionnaire. [G=1]

R - No profitable attacks into 3/1 first strike.
G - Attack for 8 trample = lethal.

It's close. It comes down to you needing to cast Peppersmoke proactively to flip Extricator of Sin, which lets him deploy Legionnaire after.


OTD you probably lose worse.
The only difference is you could choose to burn Peppersmoke earlier to speed up your clock, but then Legionnaire comes out earlier too.
G - Tapped Woodlot
R - Vault

G - Channel Devastator. [G=12]
R - Peppersmoke it. Basilica

G - Attack for 8 trample [R=12] Porcelain Legionnaire. [G=10]
R - Tap out for Extricator, sacrificing Vault. Create 3/2 token. (Types= artifact, land, instant, tribal)

G - Attack for 8 trample and 3 first strike. [R=1]
R - Delirum. Transform into 3/5. Attack for 6 vigilance. [G=4]

G - Attack for 8 trample and 3 first strike. You can absorb max 8 and take 3 trample. [R=-2]
That doesn't work either.

LL 0-6

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Definitely auto-piloted and forgot the "don't play legionnaire" line.

H: Rushwood Grove, Vine Trellis, Elephant Ambush, Acorn Harvest

1. Asthereal (TO): Swamp, Swamp, Blackmail, Porcelain Legionnaire
EDIT: I can stop Legionnaire, but I can't attack though it. 2-2

2. dte: Hickory Woodlot, Channel, Hand of Emrakul, Nantuko Tracer
Yeah, way too fast. 0-6

3. Reeplcheep: Vault of Whispers, Orzhov Basilica, Peppersmoke, Extricator of Sin
Yeah, this one is complicated.

On the Play:
H T1: Grove, pass.
R T1: Vault, pass.

H T2: Counter on Grove, pass [G=1].
R T2: Basilica, bounce Vault, pass.

H T3: Counter on Grove, pass [G=2].
R T3: Play Vault, cast Extricator, sacrifice Vault, make a 3/2.

Here is where we have some divergent lines. I can't realistically block with Trellis, but Reepl also really wants to cast Peppersmoke and double the clock. Let's try with casting Trellis, since I think I need the mana.

H T4: Cast Trellis.
R T4: Attack for 3, I take it, since Peppersmoke is still in hand [H=17]. It actually now doesn't really matter if you cast the Peppersmoke, in either case, you get 3 damage in. But, Peppersmoke probably matters if I cast Harvest, so might be best to hold it? Lets see what happens if it is cast though. Cast Peppersmoke, pass.

H T5: Counter on Grove, [G=1], pass.
R T5: Flip Extricator, attack, I block one [H=14], pass.

H T6: Counter on Grove [G=2], pass.
R T6: Attack for 6, I block one of them, take 3, [H=11].

H T7: Counter on Grove [G=3], pass.
R T7: Another attack for 6, I block one and take 3 [H=8].

H T8: I can cast Ambush now and block the token, then block Extricator forever. However, I can't ever get through it either. So that way is a draw. Lets go back though and not cast Peppersmoke there though.

H T4: Cast Trellis, pass.
R T4: Attack with token, I take it because of Peppersmoke, [H=17].

H T5: Counter on Grove, [G=1], pass.
R T5: Attack with token, I take again because of Peppersmoke, [H=14].

H T6: Counter on Grove [G=2], pass.
H T6: Attack with token, I take again because of Peppersmoke, [H=11].

Looking at this though, nothing changes really because of the Peppersmoke, so that way is a draw as well.

In fact, I think maybe it doesn't even matter who is on the Play or Draw, so I think both games just end up being draws. 2-2?

4. FTW: Strip Mine, Plains, Knight of Sursi, Knight of Sursi
Another Strip Mine, :(. 0-6

5. alphastryk: Swamp, Swamp, Blackmail, Porcelain Legionnaire
Same as other Blackmail match. 2-2

6. silkster: Mountain, Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame, Barbed Shocker
I lose on the Draw, but on the Play I can win by Flashing things back. 3-3

7. Wrath of Pie: Strip Mine, Island, Phantasmal Bear, Phantasmal Bear
More Strip Mine, :(. 0-6

8. H: Bye, myself.

9. GoblinSmashmaster: Hickory Woodlot, Channel, Eldrazi Devastator, Porcelain Legionnaire
Too fast. 0-6

10. maxx!: Forest, Tinder Farm, Reclaim, Anurid Scavenger
I think I can win this, since I only need one 3/3 Elephant to block. 6-0

11. Tylert: Swamp, Chronomaton, Wretched banquet, Unearth
Seems I am not fast enough to make chump blockers for Chrono. 0-6

15 maybe? I was definitely trying to be too cute and beat Blackmail (and failing), then people picked Strip Mine...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reeplcheep

Definitely auto-piloted and forgot the "don't play legionnaire" line.

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This is another matchup where Great Furnace would have been the difference.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by H

H: Rushwood Grove, Vine Trellis, Elephant Ambush, Acorn Harvest

3. Reeplcheep: Vault of Whispers, Orzhov Basilica, Peppersmoke, Extricator of Sin
Yeah, this one is complicated.

Looking at this though, nothing changes really because of the Peppersmoke, so that way is a draw as well.

In fact, I think maybe it doesn't even matter who is on the Play or Draw, so I think both games just end up being draws. 2-2?

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This is the last one to resolve. Reeplcheep has this as a WW but H has it as DD.

So far H's looks more convincing. Like the Goblinsmashmaster matchup, being forced to waste Peppersmoke to turn on the 3/5 either wastes removal or slows down the clock. H should be able to trade a 4-mana 3/3 Elephant with the 3/2 (even through Peppersmoke tricks), then block the 3/5 forever with Vine Trellis (because Peppersmoke has to be used first to transform it).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by H

1. Asthereal (TO): Swamp, Swamp, Blackmail, Porcelain Legionnaire
I was aiming to beat my own deck, so Blackmail pretty much has to take Trellis, but I can make four 1/1's and block just in time. 6-0

5. alphastryk: Swamp, Swamp, Blackmail, Porcelain Legionnaire
Same as other Blackmail match. 6-0

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I don't see how you win. Once legionnaire is online, it blocks forever. Of course AStheral and Alphastryk can't win, but you can't either. You have nothing that he can't block and he will eat your dudes one by one.
Am i missing something?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tylert

I don't see how you win. Once legionnaire is online, it blkocks forever. Of course AStheral and Alphastryk can't win, but you can't either. You have nothing that he can't block ans he will eat your dudes one by one.
Am i missing something?

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Good point. If Legionnaire just stays on defense, H can't swarm around it with just 2 3/3s and 4 1/1s. Legionnaire kills the biggest attacker each time, so H would only deal 7+4+3+2+1=17 which is still not lethal even paying 2 life for Porcelain. Double draws?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FTW

Good point. If Legionnaire just stays on defense, H can't swarm around it with just 2 3/3s and 4 1/1s. Legionnaire kills the biggest attacker each time, so H would only deal 7+4+3+2+1=17 which is still not lethal even paying 2 life for Porcelain. Double draws?

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Yeah, I actually didn't really think about it at all, honestly, I just took what Alpha said for granted. Hard to see how it isn't double draws though, now thinking about it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FTW

Good point. If Legionnaire just stays on defense, H can't swarm around it with just 2 3/3s and 4 1/1s. Legionnaire kills the biggest attacker each time, so H would only deal 7+4+3+2+1=17 which is still not lethal even paying 2 life for Porcelain. Double draws?

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Agreed, those should be draws. Will update.

Bold decision to trust that I've figured it out - my track record says I miss a lot :laugh:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FTW

Good point. If Legionnaire just stays on defense, H can't swarm around it with just 2 3/3s and 4 1/1s. Legionnaire kills the biggest attacker each time, so H would only deal 7+4+3+2+1=17 which is still not lethal even paying 2 life for Porcelain. Double draws?

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Even less than that because blackmail can take away one 3/3.

We should probably do the math, because the first 3/3 will come very late...

T1= Swamp, blackmail, discard 3/3. Grove.
T2 = Plains, Legionnaire (M18). G1.
T3 = ATT (Y17). G2.
T4 = ATT (Y14). Vine trellis.
T5 = ATT (Y11). G1.
T6 = ATT (Y8). G2.
T7 = ATT (Y5). G3.
T8 = ATT (Y2). 2 squirells.
T9 = ATT, chump. G1.
T10 = ATT, Chump. G2.
T11 = ATT, Chump. G3 (Can't flashback squirells).
T12 = ATT, Win.

On the Play it should be the same (One turn slower, but you can see how far ahead they are).

So 6-0 for Alphastryk and Asthereal unless i'm missing something.

This deck is SUPER Slow :) fact is that everytime you cast a spell you loose one turn of mana. I guess that at first sight it looks good because of all the flashback...

But Trellis can just block Legionnaire forever, which is why that line shouldn't work out like that, right?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tylert

Even less than that because blackmail can take away one 3/3.

We should probably do the math, because the first 3/3 will come very late...

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If Blackmail removes a 3/3, Vine Trellis blocks forever to draw. If Blackmail removes Vine Trellis, the 4 1/1s on turn 7 stop Legionnaire before it can deal lethal, but also can't attack back for lethal. This just looks like draws all around. Neither side has enough gas to get there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by H

But Trellis can just block Legionnaire forever, which is why that line shouldn't work out like that, right?

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Yes, missed that :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by H

But Trellis can just block Legionnaire forever, which is why that line shouldn't work out like that, right?

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Right, which is why I had the Blackmail taking Trellis. Otherwise there's no chance to ever attack.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reeplcheep

6. silkster: Mountain, Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame, Barbed Shocker
The banning of Great Furnace really hurts me here. 0-6

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My thoughts when reading your deck were:
Why Peppersmoke? There are no faeries. Wait, even if there were faeries, drawing a card is useless.
What's this Sin thing? Oh, Delerium. Does that really... oh artifact land and tribal instant.
Wait, isn't Tarfire better? You could definitely play it off of Boros Garrison.
Ah, but then you can't kill a 1/1 right away and a Chronomaton could get out of hand or a Llanowar Elves could have made its mana already.
Okay, so just play Great Fu... oh right, someone went and got that thing banned already. :laugh:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FTW

Funny, I was going off your comment that you couldn't find a Strip Mine deck that did better than 50%.

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Yeah, my comment looks pretty embarrassing in hindsight. My gauntlet was all skewed with Force of Will decks, turn-1 decks, and Borderpost decks that didn't care about Strip Mine, which made sense in the early rounds when people viewed Strip Mine as a threat. I also wasn't building the best Strip Mine decks, even though I knew about Knights of Old Benalia and of Sursi. It's almost like I set you up to dominate by tricking everyone else this round into thinking Strip Mine was bad. Oops!

As a fun aside, I'd like to point out that every single match this round that went 3-3 was a match that involved me. Even the Blackmail decks couldn't 3-3 against anyone else.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by silkster

As a fun aside, I'd like to point out that every single match this round that went 3-3 was a match that involved me. Even the Blackmail decks couldn't 3-3 against anyone else.

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It's hard to not end up in draws here, because if you have 2 equal-powered threats they can usually trade or force a standoff if you would lose the race.

Knight of Sursi is one of the few creatures that 3-3s the mirror (instead of 2-2) due to flanking. The player going first always wins the race. Flying + flanking means it's very hard for any low cost creature to block it profitably (including itself!). Unfortunately that interaction never came up, but it was one of the reasons why I chose it over other 1-drops. Anyway, the suspend knights had a short-lived reign before joining the other suspend threats on the ban list.