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My answer: Wish->Pulse, sometimes Ajani, mostly 1 CoP:Red +the tutor frm the wishboard.
Btw, are you srsly referring to a mono red burn deck with ball lightning and Fork? You will most likely never face that in rL... Your removal does more are the common RG sligh lists.
Well Red sligh i mean. Goyf sligh is a piece of cake but red sligh with forks and plenty of burns, plus the unexpected ball lightnings can be annoying. I guess for you since you play wish, pulse is a decent plan but yes COP: Red. Mossivo was right though, 3 COP is too much. Maybe 2 in the spell snare slots? Though i like spell snare against CB and their goyfs
Counterbalance wins the burn matchup as well as the zoo matchup.
Thats true but we may still face burn decks so we should prepare for it right? with 3 vindicates main, 2 disks, and 3 EE i think cb isn't as great of a threat as burn is to me
All i'm saying is that I think you should consider testing without vindicate in the maindeck and with counterbalance in the side. Using wish allows you to answer more threats and be universally better against a larger portion of the format.
I think this is the best advice I can help you with. Hope it helps
-Moss
Quote:
Goyf sligh is a piece of cake
Wtf are you on?Quote:
think cb isn't as great of a threat as burn is to me
sligh is a lot harder to play against than goyf sligh, ball lightning> tarmogoyf against landstill. vindicate/ EE/ disk kills cb
Counterspell: UU
Force of Will: 5cc or blue card
spell snare: U
against fireblast--> fork ---> fork--> lightning bolt ---> ball lightning
hardly seems fair
I like mossivo's idea with CB although im not so sure since we have a lot of 4 drops and fewer 2-3 drops to hit their things
I didn't mean that as a personal attack. I just don't understand your reasoning.
Goyf Sligh is just as bad as burn. The difference is that your StP's have value. Every other removal spell besides Path is not very good though, because they cost too much mana. They don't use creatures to win the game by themselves, just as extra damage producers. Which will, more often than not, do their intended job.
Otherwise, I know with my own personal Goyf Sligh list, there are 27 burn spells aimed to your dome.
CounterTop shuts Burn completely down, minus the few spells it misses here and there (Rift Bolt, Fireblast). Shuts down Goyf Sligh, too.
So I just T8'd the Jupiter Games event with a list I'm sure is going to be up in not too long. I think I'm going to make some fairly drastic changes in the list after today, largely following up on suspicions that I'd had since long before the tournament (wish being more of a crutch than anything else, among others). A real tournament report may be coming if anyone's interested enough in hearing about it. Let me know.
Without posting a lengthy list and tournament report (since I started drinking before I started typing, mostly) I'd just like to mention a few things:
1.) I played terribly and probably shouldn't have T8'd.
2.) P2E is a house. I think 3 in addition to 4 STP probably ought to be run in any aggro-esque meta (see: all of them).
3.) Cunning Wish underperformed all day
4.) The singleton tropical island for wish => kgrip was oddly solid
5.) Dust bowl was amazing every time I saw it.
6.) So was academy ruins.
7.) CB out of the board is good, but very skill intensive. More than I had to work with, in fact. I think 3 out of the board is still good but Geoff pointed out how I could have used it far better and I noticed a few times after the fact that I had made a mistake with it out. It's hard to get used to in Landstill, so practice up!
8.) Extirpate won me a match. I ran 3 because I was expecting a lot of ichorid and extirpate on belcher won me my second round.
9.) I miss FoF
Love,
-Chris
Just let me point this out, but Wish is only good if your sideboard is designed around it. Whether it be a classic 3 Negate, 3 Spell Snare + 5 toolbox cards or a super redundant sideboard likeQuote:
Originally Posted by rsaunder
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Path to Exile
1 Wing Shards
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Counterspell
1 Spell Snare
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Fracturing Gust
2 Krosan Grip
1 Tsabo's Decree
1 Extirpate
3 Negate
But since nobody else but me plays like that and boards Wish targets in for redundancy sake, I wont further on how Wish boards are the shit and all, mainly because I'm still testing it. But if I were to play with Wish boards at all, it will be like that.
But the problem I have is incorporating both SDT/Counterbalance with Cunning Wish. From just testing, I believe you need to pick one or the other. Last time I tested Counterbalance, it's been very promising. For my later builds I will be tampering with, I will be testing Counterbalance. I believe it will free up a lot of space in the sideboard and maindeck. I think a rough sketch of what I'm thinking about using is
// Mana 25
2 Eternal Dragon
1 Academy Ruins
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Forest
2 Plains
2 Island
// Spells 36
3 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
2 Fact or Fiction
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Wrath of God
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Decree of Justice
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
// Sideboard 15
4 Counterbalance
2 Hydroblast
2 Blue Elemental Blast
4 TARMOGOYF!!!!
3 Krosan Grip
So that's a test build so far. It's a fairly standard build, but who knows, it might be better with the addition of Top in the maindeck. Although, I might test something similar to Hanni's build with maindeck Vindicate instead of those awful Oblivion Rings (his deck is sweet, but ORing is just such a shitty card).
PAth to Exile in a very aggro meta could be good (see Zoo, Goyf Sligh and Merfolk/elfes). Most of those decks can run out of gas fairly easily.
That said, in a diverse Meta with Canadian, NO/CB/top.deck, aggro, combo, control (I felt my tournament today was very diverse), you are better off with a 4 STP 2-3 Wrath of God 2-3 EE
Cunning wish is definately one of the most powerful tool, in my opinion. Unfortunately, we only have 15 slots to abuse it. But you will never have 15 instant cards in the sb, almost never.
Currently :
1 tormod's crypt, 2 Relic of Progenitus : Ichorid mainly, but they arent played much. PRobably the weakest card in my SB.
1 Extirpate : Can randomly win the game. Wasteland on TRopical island, extirpate Tropical, and there, Canadian can't win anymore!
1 Pulse of the Fields : MVP all day against aggro, burn. Once you can stabilize, your cands advantage should win the game. (Most aggro, burn deck work on top deck. You have the advantage in topdeck with alot of cards that can generate huge CA)
1 Dismantling blow : Today, it wasn'T wished alot. But it is always useful.
2 Negate : Turning Cunning wish into counterspell is good
2 ajani goldmane : Zoo and aggro and burn being somewhat bad MU, I felet those 2 planeswalkers were needed. Plus, in the mirror, they can come in handy.
3 meddling mage : Combo. Its either MM or CB. I feel CB isn't the right choice, but we need to test it more
1 path to exile : Can be useful when you need a quick removal
1 wrath of god. I play 2 MD. I need 1 more for aggro
Vampire Hexmage BB
Creature - Vampire Shaman Uncommon(!!!)
First strike
Sacrifice Vampire Hexmage: Remove all counters from target permanent.
_________________________________________________________
Killing Elspeth for BB is a good thing... (not ofc for UWb landstill...) Another thing to snare?
I dont think Planeswalkers use counters... Loyalty is a completely different thing altogether, I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by gustha
But they're loyalty counters?
Nah, they're Loyalty Counters. This is what someone (MaRo?) said would be the creature that sacs to destroy 'walkers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Citrus-God
Here’s a brief write up of yesterday, because I had a few people get in touch with me and request one (thanks guys!)
The list:
1 humility
2 WoG
3 EE
4 STP
3 SS
2 CS
4 FOW
3 SDT
3 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
1 Jace
2 Wish
2 Decree
2 Els
1 P2E
4 Strand
2 Delta
4 tundra
1 sea
1 scrub
1 trop
3 Plains
2 Island
3 factory
1 dust bowl
1 academy ruins
1 tolaria west
SB:
3 extirpate
3 Plague
3 CB
2 P2E
1 Kgrip
1 E. tutor
1 negate
1 pulse
First things first, a few explanations:
@1x Trop: Besides the SB Kgrip, I wanted a way to kill planeswalkers. That’s really it, I went wish=>grip once to blow up a CB but that was really it.
@1x P2E: I was expecting agro and merfolk, as well as dredge (with its recent success) so bumping this MB gave me room to up the exirprate count post-board.
@3x Extirpate: I wanted something that would work in a few matchups, and this was a good wish target against control and got sided in against combo. So I upped the count. This won me a game against combo, but didn’t do anything else all day. I think having the hate not involve a splash color is fairly important.
@24 Lands: I don’t know why, but I expected thrash. Meh, poor metagaming. I sided out tolaria west quite a few times.
@3/2 Basic Split: I didn’t have the land slots to run 3/3, and I mostly want to run off of 1 island and 2 plains. Therefore, plains are more important (and harder to fetch).
@SB CB: The jury’s still out.
Before I begin, I’d like to say a sincere “I’m sorry” for not remembering ANYONE’S names. I’m terrible with them, that’s all there is to it. Much love to all of my opponents.
Round 1: ThatkidyouHate with 5c CB control-thing
I hate playing this guy round one. I’ve lost twice not to magus of the moon, but at least I know what to expect. Game one went the way I wanted it to, I kept threats off the board and Elspeth got there. Game 2 I made an amazing number of play errors including forgetting I blew up his counterbalance and paid 6 mana into an EE@2. That’s a product of being hella out of practice and not paying attention, more than anything. I stabilize at one or two life thanks to ruins+EE and a fat decree gets there.
2-0 (1-0)
Round 2: Some nice dude with SI/Belcher
Before game 1 we discuss what we’re playing and he talks through his bluff. I have a good idea what he’s playing before we start. I keep a hand with a spell snare and some hate and think “okay, I’ll draw a FOW soon or stick UU for counterspell.” Turn 4 rolls around and he tries to cast a belcher. I brainstorm having drawn at through at least 18/20 cards and don’t see the FOW. Game 2!
Game 2 I get lucky and land a CB which blindflips at 1 before I really take control of the game. I understand that had I not gotten that flip, I’da been toast.
Game 3 I board in P2E’s for his xantid swarms and it works well. This game went more smoothly with less lucksacking involved. I extirpate his belcher that had been countered, which is the top card of his library. He scoops soon after.
4-1 (2-0)
Round 3: Another nice dude playing Ug merfolk with MB needles
Game 1 I open land, top. He goes land, needle. Must be nice… I see my 1-of P2E which scares him and I keep him out of the game. Elspeth gets there.
Game 2 goes about the same, I had to dig for a bit to get a kill, but when it gets there, it gets there.
6-1 (3-0)
Round 4 against Bryant
He knows my decklist card-for-card, I know his. He’s scared of CB out of the board, I’m scared of storm combo. Game 1 I get duressed/silenced into oblivion. Game 2 he duresses out my CB after mulling to 5 and then just outright wins. F*ck.
6-3 (3-1)
Round 5 against another nice dude playing Zoo.
I pull game 1 out of my ass at about 2 life. Game 2 goes to him, I got a bad land draw and saw not enough spot removal. Vexing shusher’s some good against me. Game 3 I made a play error not forcing a goyf and it cost me the game. Sorry about being a bad sport about this one man, that’s not me. Much love.
7-5 (3-2)
Round 6 against yet another nice dude running what seemed to be Eva green with deeds.
Game 1 I spell eat a hymn turn 1 but keep a couple lands and a couple counters. I snare his turn 2 sinkhole and then resolve a standstill. I keep his threats off the board and that’s the game. Game 2 I brainstorm into a FoW to handle his turn 2 sinkhole and then counter the rest of his disruption. A fat decree goes the distance. Really nice guy, I hope he did well in the side event!
9-5 (4-2)
I was game to split the T8 straight up, since I knew I’d be playing Bryant, but alas, such was not to be. I lost game 1 (surprise!). Game 2, I mull down and go turn 1 top, turn 2 CB. Bryant manages to go off without 1cc spells and almost kills himself on an AdN. He flips at 1 life and sees a chrome mox which gets him the win. Must be nice…
After the fact, Geoff came and talked to me about how I could have played CB better. I should have let Silence resolve and just relied on CB+top, I might have won that game.
All in all, I had a great day and got a lot of practice and experience, met some nice people, and even made about $50 on the day even taking in to account gas and food. I walked away with 3 altered FBB seas (traded for non-inked FBB seas), 4 jap foil DCI P2E’s, another foil duress, and $20.
Props: Eli for holding yet another awesome tournament
Bryant for solid play all day
all of my opponents for being super nice
Landstill for being good enough to T8 despite my errors
Slops: Quack for not making T8 with me
Bryant. Dammit.
Not splitting T8
Play errors
Peace!
-chris
I've never really been a fan of Cunning Wish. If you say they were underperforming for you all day, I'd recommend dropping them for 1 Brainstorm and 1 Top.
And fit the 4th Counterbalance in the sideboard somehow, you really want the max 4 for so many matchups.
I hate to say I'm gonna cut a top after this, but I'm gonna cut a top. Real car advantage is where it's at, and I'm pretty convinced that FoF is the way to go. I may very well add in another top as draw spell #11. Here's what I'm going to be working with now:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
4 Stp
3 WoG
2 EE
3 Vindicate
3 SS
3 CS
4 FoW
3 Standstill
2 SDT
3 BS
2 FoF
2 Elspeth
2 Decree
1 E. Dragon
3 Delta
3 Strand
4 Tundra
1 sea
1 scrub
1 swamp
2 island
2 plains
3 Factory
3 [utilityland]wasteland/3 set
SB:
3 Relic
3 Plague
3 P2E
4 CB
2 Pulse
1 Top (card #16 to work with CB, This may get fit in MB or SB somewhere, not sure yet)
EDIT: I think for the 3 utility land slots, it might be 2x Dust bowl, 1x Academy ruins
EDIT#2: -2 [Relic/Plague/CB], +1 top, +1 E. tutor might be an interesting switch
Last week i played against someone with a GBW-Rock build. Preboard I won every game without any problems. But after sideboarding he played Choke and Extirpate and now HE won every single game.
My list was:
Lands (23):
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
3 Island
2 Plains
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
1 Dust Bowl
Spells (37):
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Wrath of God
2 Humility
3 Spell Snare
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Standstill
2 Jace Beleren
2 Decree of Justice
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Sideboard(15):
3 Negate
3 Meddling Mage
2 Path to Exile
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Counterbalance
I only boarded -2 Humility and +2 PtE.
How do you play against these cards (especially Choke which ruined every game for me)? Or am I the only one who has problems with this card?
Dont run Dust Bowl, they suck against Merfolk.Quote:
Originally Posted by rsaunder
Dont run Relic of Progenitus, there are definitely better SB options out there. Like, you could run a 4th Plague, or run Perish to fend off Thresh and Survival. Heck, even CoP: Red is beneficial in this slot: especially with all the Shushers and Grips running around, PoP is going to hit you hard in the face.