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Ive always liked the percy/therapy concept, but I've been burned by it before as well. Its more aggressive than is my preference, but mentor/therapy/souls can get out of hand. My biggest issue with mentor in a deck like this though is how low the instant count is. Makes it less rattlensake-y. Still intrigued how it does.
Mini-tournament report:
Went 0-3-drop because sleep is the best at my LGS last night. Replaced the silly demons from the previous list with 2x Kaya as mentioned previously and swapped Isareth and another card for hymns. Played against Maverick, Lands, Grixis Control.
Maverick 1-2: got run over by a KotR and a double exalted qasali in the 2 games i lost. Won on the back of equipment amd souls tokens in the game i took. Pretty standard fare.
Lands 1-2: lost to a crazy good draw g1 where he dumped his hand and depthed t2. Game 2 i had bitterblossom, soulsx2 and equipment and just ran over everything. Game 3 I held off lage for probably about 10 turns with a judge familiar/mom combo forever until i eventually got ghost quartered out of the game. Kaya did some work that game but eventually got pfired away late. Card is awesome though. I had 7 outs in my deck, and all were in bottom 10 cards when the game ended. Most unfortunate.
Grixis Control, 1-2 (notice a pattern?)
Grindy matchup was grindy. Usually both ended up hellbent and praying for haymakers. SoFi, souls, souls, bitterblossom runners got me mine, empty board jace and jace/lili last hope got him his.
All the matchups felt winnable but slightly less than 50% preboard. Thinking of trying Drana since shes great with go-wide strategies and plays nice with jitte.
Since the bannings, my record is 14-13. Deck is very meh right now. And some of those wins, I won because I had the nuts in my opener hand. IE. Relic game 1 turn 1 vs lands or Leyline, Faerie Macabre, Karakas and Needle vs Reanimator.
I figured there would be less Kologhan's Commands and more Combo decks. Not so far. My build is still fine vs combo decks, pretty much the same as before. However, against fair decks, not doing so well. Plus I flood out quite a bit more. Probably should cut a land but I'm worried I'll be stuck on 2 mana sources and 3 drops in my hand.
Taking a break from the deck atm. I suppose the build could be a black death and taxes but that just feels like a worse version of Death and Taxes. Hoping they print something(s) in Ravnica in October.
I've run into the same problems with the deck, I actually ended up cutting the chrome moxes and had a little more success. I think the biggest problem is that there really isn't a good way to alleviate flood, previously you could just rely on DRS to drain your opponent for a while till you draw something to finish them off but we can't do that anymore. I wonder if it's worth finally exploring a red splash or maybe going down the route of that dega pyromancer deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilkin
Im not a fan of chrome mox at all right now. This deck goes 1-for-1 a lot and relies on being able to outlast your opponents initial onslaught. Chrome mox gets you casting spells faster, but also leaves you hellbent faster and costs you action cards. This is especially bad vs brainstorm/jace decks where you end up amplifying their card advantage. I can see boarding chrome mox in vs combo where you want interaction as fast as possible and more cards are dead, but vs fair decks it feels like a trap to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by CptHaddock
Im testing out a modified list at ChannelFireball today. We'll see if my modifications help. Report to follow.
Thanks for the shout-out waaay back! I've been lurking on these forums but never took the time to make an account. If I remember right I went 5-3-1 drop that day with *almost* Wilkin's exact list. (1-2 sb changes and couldn't find any local shriekmaws)Quote:
Originally Posted by barcode
As to the drs ban, I've had a few ideas bouncing around.
1. Myth Realized - has anyone tried this? It doesn't ramp, but with as few as 8 creatures in the deck, there's a lot of room for spells to turn it on. Even Mox makes it bigger.
2. Dryad Militant - hurts our lingering souls, but also turns Snapcaster into an ambush viper. Eats a plow or carries equipment just fine.
3. Grim Lavamancer - offers reach and removal. While it doesn't offer the grave hate that drs did, Removal On A Stick could open up a few slots to fill that need. Can be fueled fine by Lilly and Collective Brutality. Splashing red could also give us Kolaghan's Command in the main and Pyroblast in the side.
4. Noble Hierarch - it's a deeper green splash than drs...and it doesn't offer all of the utility that drs did...or the same degree of Mana fixing....but darn does a turn two Gideon of the trials just seem fun.
There seem to be a number of healthy ways to develop this deck post drs, but it might require a bit more commitment to single line of play like Wilkin suggests a few posts ago.
Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
Yeah, the way the meta is, with it being fair and so many kologhan's commands running around it is probably better off with no Moxes. But ugh, turn 3 at latest for Liliana sucks.
Trying to go down to 21 lands and 3 mox for now. I'm stubborn. Added a Gurmag Angler. Looks good in goldfishing so far.
Im curious how angler goes. Been wanting to jam one into my list but scared of it and Bob interacting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilkin
Disappointing 1-3-1 at Top Deck Games today. I'm going to collect my thoughts and edit this with matches and hindsight.
EDIT
Round 1 was a draw against D&T. I was playing catch-up to his plan while he very very slowly sealed the game. I thought about just conceding to move to game 2 faster, but the game didn't feel the hopeless to just give up. Game 2 I covered all angles and closed it fast, but not before time was called in our opening turns. We both felt confident in our board states, no way to know how it would have played out.
Round 2 was a loss against Moon Stompy. Kept a hand of 2 fetches on the play, so when Blood Moon came down I could only get a single Plains, and never saw the ability to make black mana before the tide of goblins murdered me. Game 2 I missed a critical 3rd land drop that would have allowed me to answer his Mogg Catcher before it came online, but a turn late meant he had access to all the artifact removal and board sweepers he needed to end the game.
Round 3 was a win against UW Stoneblade. Keeping him off TNN, and one point running Vindicates to his running Islands made for a whole lot of dead cards in hand when he died. The only time in the day when the deck was full of gas.
Rounds 4 & 5 were both losses to Grixis Control. Both were highlighted by how much better they were at controlling the game with Plainswalkers, how good Snapcaster is, how back breaking KCommand is. Wilkin is right, having threats that are live against opposing Liliana the Last Hope was a large oversight. Not sure what the game plan is going forward against Grixis; they're just so much better at 2-for-1 advantage until we're hellbent and we lack haymaker topdecks like JTMS to seal it up.
I've had success at the local shop, going 3-1 on average, but somehow felt really under prepared for these matchups.
Won an Eternal weekend trial today. A round 1 bye at eternal is nice to have. 14 players, 4 rounds cut to top 8.
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Remorseful Cleric
1 Shriekmaw
1 Hero of Bladehold
1 Gurmag Angler
3 Thoughtseize
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Vindicate
1 Unexpectedly Absent
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
3 Lingering Souls
3 Chrome Mox
4 Scrubland
3 Swamp
1 PLains
1 Karakas
1 Shambling Vent
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
2 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs
Side: 1 Leyline of Sanctity, 1 Leyline of the Void, 1 Surgical Extraction, 1 Faerie Macabre, 1 Engineered Explosives, 1 Zealous Persecution, 1 Toxic Deluge, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Liliana, the Last Hope, 1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation, 1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, 1 Tsabo's Web, 1 Ob Nixilis Reignited, 1 Dismember, 1 Humility
Round 1. Burn. Win 2-0
Early Batterskull and Jitte game 1. GG.
Had Batterskull and Jitte again Game 2. Had the Shriekmaw equipped to a Batterskull and Jitte FTW. People had a good laugh seeing Kambal hit play. He did die quickly from a Chain Lightning but that ok, I still got value out of him.
Round 2. Reanimator. Win 2-0
I had the discard to stop combo and Bob and Gurmag to clean things up.
Game 2 I mulled to 4. Cleric, Mystic, swamp, wasteland. Ugh. He had a turn 1 Dread of Night and thoughtseized me, taking the Cleric. Which was the turning point since by the time he was able to bring in a griselbrand, I had a Skull, Sword of Fire and Ice, Mystic and Bob. So he was at 5 life, so he felt it too risky to swing at me, because of the crack back.
Round 3. ID
ROund 4. ID.
I'm the 3rd seed going in. We split and play it out. Luckily my next round opponent isn't going to eternal so I got the win.
Round 5. Win. Opponent conceded since he wanted to leave and isn't going to Eternal
Round 6. Reanimator Win 2-1
Game 1, I had early discard and bob to get there. He killed my Remorseful Cleric early but couldn't follow it up.
Game 2, Mulled to 4, had no action and promptly got stomped.
Game 3. Mulled to 4 or 5. But had the turn 1 Remorseful Cleric, via a Chrome Mox. Cleric did a few beats before I had to sac it to get rid of Griselbrand in the yard.By that time I had Mystic into Batterskull to cause pressure. He reanimated a Grave Titan later on but I was able to plow it (I had to plow it twice as the first one was countered). Another Cleric created some beats for the win.
Round 7. Grixis Delver. Win 2-0
Game 1. I had the turn 1 Stoneforge Mystic into Batterskull. I think he had all brainstorms as he didn't counter anything or kill anything until late in the game. I was able to resolved another Mystic 2 turns later to get Sword of Fire and Ice. He has 2 Flipped Delvers but it's a race I was able to win.
Game 2. We trade cards for a while until I land a Liliana, the Last Hope. He didn't have to the removal or the creatures to deal with it. She ultimated. GG.
Notes; had about 4 turn 1 Chrome Mox plays today. Not too bad.
-Cutting down to 21 lands kinda hurts at times but I really don't want to get flooded.
-Gurmag Angler was pretty decent. Of course, i probably won't be saying that when I flip it to Bob. But it necessary now to have a threat that doesn't immediately die to Liliana, the Last Hope.
-didn't get a turn 1 Leyline of Sanctity or Void in any of my games.
-Lol, stoneforge feels a lot better when there aren't as many Kologhan's Commands running around.
-Remorseful Cleric was pretty good. Insane vs Reanimator even as a beater as well as an answer. In other matchups, having evasive threat was nice.
-I'm now 21-14-2 with Deadguy post ban. 59% win rate. Fairly close to what I was before.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvKeRSO32qw
Here's the video of the legacy tournament, the Eternal Trial I won.
Notes:
-No sound unfortunately
-it's VERY choppy. I think when it gets to the top 8 it's fine but it's painfully choppy before that.
-I did ID my rounds vs Canadian Threshold and Sneak show but we played for fun anyway on camera.
It seems like you have enough of a "toolbox" to warrant running the white recruiter. What do you think about that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilkin
I think I would need to run a lot more creatures to make that work. PLus I think the build would be more of a death and taxes version dead guy.Quote:
Originally Posted by CptHaddock
And, I can't find Gurmag Angler, Hero of Bladehold or Kambal with recruiter.
Went 3-3 at Legacy monthly. Lost to Grixis Control twice and Burn. Beat Pox, Death and Taxes and Turbo Depths. Swiched out the Ob Nixilis Reignited for a Gideon, Ally of Zendikar.
I'm now at 25-20-2. Meh. It around 55%. Not awful but not great either.
But if I were to try something like Dark Death and Taxes it would probably look like this....
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Mother of Runes
1 Orzhov Pontiff
3 Flickerwisp
2 Remorseful Cleric
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Jitte
1 SOFI
1 Batterskull
23 lands.
Is Plaguecrafter worth considering for this deck?
Lots of games against Grixis Control came down to dueling Liliana the Last Hope in a race to Emblem first.
Would be interested in more capable pilot's thoughts.
I think Plaguecrafter can be in this deck. Too be able to kill a Jace with dude is totally worth it.Quote:
Originally Posted by PirateKing
To the slaughter/vindicate seem like better answers and it's pretty easy getting to delirium when the blue rock deck is making you discard/killing your creatures. This card doesn't really look that good in that matchup to me, against grixis i've found that the board always get clogged with strixes and snapcasters. It looks like it'd be decent against the UWx control decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by PirateKing
Hello everyone,
I played at some big event (52 players) last weekend with my deadguy ale version.
I enjoyed playing the deck and I thought it would be nice to share my list and some thoughts I had.
Here's the list:
Land
1x Polluted Delta
4x Marsh Flats
6x Swamp
4x Wasteland
4x Scrubland
1x Karakas
3x Plains
Planeswalker
1x Gideon of the Trials
4x Liliana of the Veil
Instant
4x Swords to Plowshares
Artifact
1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte
Creature
2x Remorseful Cleric
2x Tidehollow Sculler
3x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Dark Confidant
Sorcery
3x Hymn to Tourach
3x Lingering Souls
3x Vindicate
3x Thoughtseize
2x Sinkhole
Sideboard
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1x Zealous Persecution
1x Cataclysm
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Kaya, Ghost Assassin
1x Engineered Plague
2x Dread of Night
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Rest in Peace
1x Humility
Tourney mini report
The tourney had 6 rounds with a cut for top 8.
I ended with 4-1-1, finishing in 7th.
I lost in the first round to reanimator, I could not find grave hate in any of the three games.
In the following rounds I won against two D&T, one UR elver and eldrazi aggro, every game was 2-0. While some games were closer than others, I did not face any major issues to control the board. I did have some issues with threats, sometimes it took a while to find a creature or the ones I had lacked evasion.
I drew in the last round against miracles due to time. We had a close game 1 which lasted nearly 35mins (which I lost), and another close game 2 which I won, without any time left to play a 3rd game.
In the top 8 I played my first match against burn, on the draw. I lost the first game, but I managed to win the match with the gideons, on both games.
The second match in the top 8 was against monored goblins, on the draw, and I lost 1-2. I felt I could win this match if my curve were lower. My list has multiple cards costing 3 without any cheaper options in the sideboard, which really hurt in this case.
On the following day I played again, at the smaller tournament (~20 players), finishing 2-1-1. I lost to UW stoneblade, beat burn and ur delver and drew with goblins (due time). Same list, except for a extra zealous persecution in the sideboard replacing cataclysm. I had to mulligan every single game, sometimes down to 5, but the deck played well.
Thoughts
- The 3 drop curve is too crowded. I have replace some of the 3 drops for cheaper alternatives, either in the main, the side or both.
- The deck needs more with evasion. I would rather not increase the creature count, but I definetely want more flyers. Cleric is good example of what I want in this deck: it's cheap, has evasion and it can disrupt.
- The deck needs more proactivity. Cheap creature removal (push, path, dismember) and discard (iok, seize) could help with this while also lowering the mana curve.
- My sideboard should address more strategies. I have little to no experience in the format and I built mine expecting lots of aggro, especially D&T.
Single card thoughts
- Tidehollow Sculler: I liked him a lot, but sadly he lacks evasion and dies easily, since he's also an artifact. Maybe Kitesail Freeboter could replace Sculler, the disruption is worse but he has evasion.
- Sinkhole: It felt nice playing with sinkholes and vindicates. I sided them out on most of my matches, but I liked having some hate against basic lands.
- No Moxes: To be honest I built my list without mox because I don't own any. I could tell that they would have helped against goblins, but I don't think I would replace anything in my list for them.
Maybeboard
- Kitesail Freebooter: maybe he's a good addition to deck or maybe he can replace on or both of the scullers.
- Bittlerblossom: extra resources with evasion. Can be good on offense and defense.
- Collective Brutality: flexible card with low cost, could help lowering the mana curve.
Thanks for reading everyone!
If you any suggestions on my list, please let me know :)
Itsvan, I *love* the number of basics in your list. Thank you for sharing your experience! A few comments, questions:Quote:
Originally Posted by itsvan
Aside from your burn matchup, did you see Gideon at all? How did he feel? I currently run a 3 Veil/2 Trials split in the main. I like Gideon's hard clock.
Can you go into more detail at all on your eldrazi matchup? What were your key sideboard cards?
Cutting 3 Mana spells is hard...they are all high value threats and answers. Who doesn't love blowing up a basic on turn 3? I think this is partially where Mox is so helpful - 21 lands / 3 Mox can help you hit the threes. In my mind, Mox also gives you more options on T1 than discard or "leave Mana open to plow a delver."
Tidehollow Sculler is a conditional 2-for-1 that dies two different ways to Kolaghan's command. One of my pet cards since alara. That being said, I don't think the ability to hit a creature is as relevant as flying or 3 toughness. Freebooter still grabs show and tell or a reanimate spell. Just my two cents.
Bitterblossom has been popping up in the main of grixis control/delver recently to deal with the mirror. I think having 2+ in the main can be great - it's solid defensively, tokens can hold swords, and man can it turn the corner.
A few general questions for the forum:
You have Bob, Stoneforge, and hymn in hand, land and Mox in play for turn 1. Which would you play first blind? Does it change if you're on the draw?
If you play a Stoneforge t1/t2, would you rather drop a Batterskull or a Planeswalker on the next turn? Does it depend on the matchup?
Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
In the dark i'd imprint the hymn and play the bob, he has the highest upside in surviving on the play. I usually imprint either extra discard spells or the most expensive card in my hand usually. I think you really would play bob in most situations. If you are playing against tempo on the draw it's best to just play around their soft permission. If you see that they are on combo/control i'd be a little more inclined to not pitch the hymn. Against something weird like dredge i'd play the SFM first since there is no way you are going to beat that deck game 1 and need to kill them asap.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonofastoic
The planeswalker question is a little hard to answer, i'd say play it by ear. I think that against control decks i'd want my walkers down as soon as possible or if they are getting forced at least you are cutting them off a bit of resources early but I think that forcing them to answer 1 threat then slamming another after is an equally good approach. When it's obvious e.g. last hope vs elves, d&t and maverick i'd 100% slam the walker.
Went 3-1 today at a weekly. Record post ban is now 28-23-2. 54.7% or so win rate. Not bad, not great either.
Main deck the same, board is a bit different. Took out Needle and something else, put in Alms Collector and Tsabo's Web.
Round 1. Lands. Win 2-1
Game 1. He assembles loam and punishing fire. I don't bother playing more.
Game 2. I Kill his Molten Vortex after he kills my Remorseful Cleric with it. I have a bob that is unchecked.
Game 3. I plow his Marit Lage Token. I'm able to stop his engine, i did have tsabo's web out, but it gets Krosan Gripped.
Round 2. 8 Rector Fit. Win 2-1.
Game 1. He's on a 5 carder that includes a Sandwurm Convergence and a Cruel Reality. I hymn him and then play bob a turn later....
Game 2. He's able to hard cast Ugin. gg
Game 3. Leyline of Sanctity stops his Therapies from doing much. I have Faerie Macabre and Cleric to stop his rectors from being an issue. I ulitmate Liliana, the Last Hope ftw.
Round 3. Sneak Show. Lose 2-1
Game 1. I have Thoughtseize, Inquisition and Hymn in first few turns. Bob and Gurmag clean things up.
Game 2. I have Karakas but he draws enough with Griselbrand to Omniscience show and tell next turn.
Game 3. Show and Tell into Omniscience again.
Round 4. Elves. Win 2-0
Game 1. Turn 2 Liliana, the Last Hope on the play. GG. Lol, I joked that it would happen too, knowing that I only have one main.
Game 2. He's stuck on 1 land, I have a bob, removal including a Zealous Persecution and a Vindicate for his one land.
Notes:
-Never got to see if Alms Collector any good, only had it vs Sneak show. Lol, it probably bad.
-Gurmag Angler very good, nice having a beater that doesn't crumble to Punishing Fire
-Tsabo's Web wasn't great because of Grip but i think it better than Needle as so many of the lands in lands annoys me.
-Faerie Macabre was great, neutralized Rector and was good vs Lands.
-Chrome Mox was good today, allowing a turn 2 Liliana vs Elves and turn 1 Cleric vs lands
Hello Sonofastoic!
Thanks for the kind words and sorry for taking forever to answer.
He showed up against UR delver and performed well, holding a creature out until I was able to take control of the board. I like him more as an one of because he's not very good when you are behind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonofastoic
Unfortunately, there isn't a lot to say about this match because my opponent had some bad draws.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonofastoic
Game 1 he had a nice start with Eldrazi Mimics but I managed to kill the bigger stuff. Lingering souls provided me tons of blockers which eventually started attacking. I finished the game with Stoneforge for Batterskull, after equiping a soul token with it.
I'm not sure, I remember that I kept the clerics because they fly, but I probably sideboarded like this:
In: Toxic Deluge, Ensnaring Bridge, Humility.
Out: 3 thoughtseize
Game 2 my opponent had to mulligan to 5, which made my turn 2 hymn to tourach really strong. Dark Confidant and Stoneforge took the game away backed by a Vindicate.
That's a good point, I haven't thought about mox this way. I rather run more lands without mox, but that's definetely a good point, thanks for pointing it out!Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonofastoic
Freebooter has only 2 toughness, but yeah, I think that the flying is probably worth the change. If I ever try to run him, I will report my experience here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonofastoic
Yes, I also agree with you, but what would you cut for them? I'm not playing mine because I couldn't figure this out :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonofastoic
Most of the time, hymn to tourach first. Bob shines when left unanswered and SFM if better when you know what to fetch. By starting with hymn you can strip away the removal that would be pointed at Bob and you get information before you decide what to fetch with SFM.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonofastoic
Hard to say without knowing the match and the planeswalker. Against aggro, I would probably play batterskull first.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonofastoic
@Wilkin, thanks for reporting!
How are your Remorseful Clerics performing?
I'm playing mine after seeing your the in your list. I like them, but sometimes I feel that they are only good because they fly.
I saw some discussion about Mother of Runes on here, to replace Deathrite. Has anyone given it a good solid testing?
Also, I'm thinking Deadguy could lean harder into the card advantage role to try and win against fair creature decks and control decks and just focus on graveyard combo post board (losing to storm and show and tell ).
Why are we not playing Kaya more often? How about something like Sign in Blood?
Went 3-1 today at FNM local. Lost to Elves, beat BR reanimator, Grixis Control and UB Shadow.
Highlights....almost had another turn 2 Liliana, the last hope vs Elves but I didn't have 2 black mana sources. LOL, against some Elves player from yesterday.
-Had a key Zealous Persecution vs Grixis Control, killing his Strix and allowing my 2 Lingering Souls to kill his Liliana, the Last Hope
-Had Leyline of Sanctity vs Grixis Control in game 2, shutting down Hymn to Tourach.
-turn 1 Thalia in games 2 and 3 vs BR reanimator.
-2nd time I've actually swung with Shambling Vent more than once. It was against Grixis. The first time i was able to swing multiple times with Vent, it was against BR reanimator (not today opponent). lol. I had 3 discard spells on him so he had nothing, but i had nothing either except the Shambling Vent. It connected at least 4 times. That's how bad both of our draws were.
Clerics have been ok. If it didn't have flying, it wouldn't be playable. I have them there since I have only 3 slots in my board dedicated to GY hate (Leyline, Faerie Macabre and a Surgical). Most of the time, Remorseful Cleric is just a Stormfront Pegasus. Sometimes that's all I need, lol. Leaving them in for now....they are a flying threat that has the added bonus of being Graveyard hate.
As far as sideboard dedication, I have a Kaya but right now I have a Gideon and another Last Hope in board. Gideon has been great. Tried Ob Nixilis, but 5 mana is a bit too much. Sign in Blood, wouldn't Night's Whisper be better? Or Phyrexian Arena? I do get what you are saying though ClimbGneiss. The meta is very fair and based around trying to out card advantage you.
Makes sense to try and battle the same way...which is why I'm trying Alms Collector. I know, it's bad. But that payoff could be huge if I can wreck someones Brainstorm. It's a big reason why I'm going with Gideon and a Liliana in the board, to try and keep up on card advantage and value.
Sign in Blood specifically because we can afford the BB and you can target your opponent for the last 2 life I'm corner cases. I've been thinking of the 'cantrip count' of our list versus miracles and grixis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilkin
Miracles has at least 12 (Brainstorm, ponder, ak) and grixis has 12 (Brainstorm, ponder,strix). Plus each has card advantage elements. We fight their permission with an abundance of discard.
So our card advantage count is: 4 DarkConfidant, 4 Stoneforge, 1 jitte, 1 Sword of Fire and Ice, x Hymn.
But our card selection is weak, so I've been thinking Skeletal Scrying or Sign in Blood.
I'd love to hear your thoughts.
Has Chrome Mox been much more important in the new meta?
Well, I'd consider Planeswalkers and Lingering Souls as card advantage. At least in terms of trying to win the resource/attrition war.
I'd probably rather try more walkers or a phyrexian arena over sign in blood. But an issue i have right now is there are a ton of 3 drops in the deck. So atm, my board for grindy blue decks is to put in Alms Collector, Gideon Ally of Zendikar and Liliana, the Last hope (i also put in zealous if it's grixis control) and I take out 2 chrome Mox and a Thoughtseize. And also, what do i take out for scrying or sign in blood?
Chrome Mox isn't as important as it once was. A bit less combo for me in my meta. Plus even against old Czech Pile decks, it was nice to accelerate into turn 2 Liliana to kill their Deathrite Shaman. Now that Czech Pile has been replaced by Grixis Control, it's less important to accelerate into a turn 2 Liliana of the Veil. But there are still enough combo decks running around were it's nice to cast a turn 1 Hymn, Bob, Remorseful Cleric vs Reanimator etc.
Thanks for the info. For your information, my experience with Deadguy is zero. I've played Esper Deathblade/Esper Stoneblade for years, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilkin
Another question about Chrome Mox. What are our percentages versus combo decks pre and post board? I'm sure that it varies based on the theme of the combo deck. What I'm angling at is:
My other deck besides Esperblade is Lands. In Lands, some folks devote a tremendous amount of sideboard space to Show and Tell and Storm and, in all honesty, it's an exercise in futility where they might be better off just running additional cards in the sideboard for fair matchups and control matchups.
But, anyway, Chrome Mox seems really great to me, but I don't know what the cost/benefit is having not played it. A first turn Confidant versus Miracles when they don't have a Swords yet is pretty cool. But, if the whole reason to run it is to beat combo and the win rate goes from 20-80 to 30-70, is it worth it?
You're right about the value of Lingering Souls, especially in the Grixis Control/Miracles meta. I also agree that the 3 CMC spot is WAYYY too heavy. It would be nice to build in a lower curve somehow.
I've been slowing building up to a list, here's what I've got so far:
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
4 Dark Confidant
1 Palace Jailer
3 Lingering Souls
=15
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Kaya, Ghost Assassin
=5
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate
=7
3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Cabal Therapy
=9
2 Skeletal Scrying or Sign in Blood or Night's Whisper … I guess the discussion is Instant Speed vs being able to target your opponent vs friendlier to mana. I do worry about the lifeloss running Thoughtseize, 4 fetches, and a couple of these.
2 Chrome Mox
=4
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
Swamps
Plains
Based on the numbers above, I'm likely above 61. I also haven't fully accomplished everything I'm looking to do. In terms of willing fair magic matchups vs Control or Midrange type decks, what is our biggest issue? Is it their card filtering? Is it their counter spells? Is it our lack of card filtering? I like that the list above has a lot of card advantage, a mess of discard to keep the opponent hellbent and also to push through their discard. Also, there's some corner case mana base destruction we can do.
Sb:
The sideboard, I think, relies on what the main deck ends up as. For example, without Chrome Mox, I'd be more tempted to run 4 x Leyline of the Void sideboard to try and win the GY Combo matchups?
Other questions I have:
- How unreliable is it to do a light green splash? A single Bayou for sideboard Gaddock Teeg or Abrupt Decay or Sylvan Library.
- What are our best and worst matchups these days??
- What's the correct mana base?
Wilkin, a couple of cards I've toyed around with the idea of:
Imp's Mischief
Abeyance
My theory is that these could be used as virtual card advantage and build some less linear strategies into the deck to give us more possibilities.
Imp's Mischief can be used as a Counterspell for our opponents Spell Pierce or Force of Will. It could also be used to create a massive swing in momentum in a fair matchup (redirecting an Abrupt Decay to a Baleful Strix, for example). Could be a possible 2 for 1. It seems like it would be at its best vs Grixis control.
Abeyance might be trickier. I got the idea from a Miracles player who was toying with it. He's a very skilled and accomplished player. My thinking is that it's used as pseudo fate seal or time walk at low cost to us because it cantrips. So, if we have a positive board presence, we can counter our empty-handed miracles opponents potential draws of Terminus, Jace to bounce our Batterskull, or really anything in that deck. It could also effectively Counterspell a snapcaster mage trigger.
What are your thoughts?
I thought about Imp's Mischief when Shardless BUG was around. Mostly for Ancestral Visions. lol, take 0 damage, draw 3 cards seems nice. If Visions becomes a thing again, I may consider doing it.
Never really thought about Abeyance. Not a bad idea. I also considered Shadow of Doubt.
I like Abeyance the best ATM out of those. Being able to pseudo time walk plus nerfing Snapcaster Mage is enticing.
I don't think we need to splash green, imo. I did before but having Deathrite around meant that I only needed one Bayou. With Deathrite gone, we'd have to really wreck the mana base. Hmmm...mana base is probably better off going without Chrome Mox because of all the fair decks, but habits die hard. I don't splash another color because I really prefer stable mana bases. Playing 4 basic lands atm. I've seen some recent dead guy lists running even more (7).
Toughest matchups.....I'd say Grixis Control, Burn and Sneak Show Omniscience. I put in Leyline of Sanctity vs Grixis in the hopes of not only nerfing Hymn to Tourach, but hopefully they put in something like Diabolic Edict. Also put in Alms Collector to hopefully get Grixis when they brainstorm or Jace Storm. With Deathrite gone, Burn gets a lot tougher. Kambal has been pretty decent, haven't lived the dream with casting him with an active Karakas. Sneak show alone is a good matchup for us...but when they put in Omniscience it becomes quite tougher, although i don't see a ton of it right now.
I think that the biggest problem that this deck has are the same problems that every SFM deck has right now which is that grixis/miracles are so full of 2 for 1s that you fall behind and eventually lose. I'm not really sure what the solution to this is, strangely enough I think that canonist might actually be worth playing a maindeck hoser to the fair blue decks in the format. They've all seemed to develop to a point where they spend early turns xeroxing. Although i'm basing this on my experiences playing shortcake which is an entirely separate beast. Besides grixis and sometimes miracles, i'd say burn is pretty close to unwinnable (without dedicated sideboard slots) and sometimes S&T, but that really depends on your hand vs the S&T player's hand.
I agree with wilkin in that if you want to splash green you probably should play 3>= green sources. I honestly feel like the green splash is not adding a lot anymore either. I think the real reason to be green is sylvan library but you can kind of make up for the loss of that card by playing monarch cards. I would recommend adding some kind of beater to your list, in most games you hit that sweet midrange spot where your opponent has nothing and you can just threaten to end the game.
Fwiw, I like the idea of Chrome Mox and want to use it in my upcoming list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilkin
More questions :
- I'm sure you've tried Collective Brutality. Is it any good? Vs burn, it would certainly shore up that matchup. With souls and up to 2 Cabal therapy? There's the obvious stuff to bin, and vs storm you can bin Swords to Plowshares to drain and discard. It might be too mediocre in other matchups, though.
- Funeral Charm over IoK? This one is probably much more loose. Like, Funeral Charm can kill a creature which gives us flexibility. But IOK gives us information which helps therapy and gameplanning.
- Sideboard Chains of Mephistopheles?
It would require a nonbo with Sword or Fire and Ice. And for me, also with Palace Jailer and Kaya. But, against all of the blue decks out there, maybe it's worth it?
Brutality has been very hit or miss for me. It's very good against burn obviously but it's kind of medium against the fair blue decks after the DRS ban. I've very often found myself wishing it was either a hymn or another targeted discard spell, I ended up replacing mine with a 3rd hymn and a 3rd inqusition. I completely forgot that chains existed but I think that would be very good against the control decks, grixis is very weak to enchantments and miracles still has to dig to find their answers. It's probably worth gimping yourself slightly to x for 1 your opponent.Quote:
Originally Posted by ClimbGneiss
I haven't played Legacy for a while... waiting for the new set and changes in the meta... I'm thinking on making some changes in my DGA and coming back...
Persecutor was a nice idea, but didn't work that well... Hero of Bladehood on the other side...
I'm planning on building something a little stronger on the discard side, maybe trying a couple Hypnotic Specters (now that I'm playing Chrome Moxen and can eventually cast them before turn 3). I will bring some Hymns back to the deck and definitely a second Kaya.
I was thinking on trying at least one copy of the new Divine Visitation ... I know it's expensive and usually doesn't affect the board on turn 5, but if I already have Hero in play, that turn I would attack and create two 5/4 flying attackers ;-) Has anybody tried it already?
I like the idea of Canonists in the MB... and I also like the Imps ... so I will experiment with those as well.
I'll try to figure out the deck during this week and will try to play it next week... will post the result of the games after.
Went 3-0-1 today. Same list as before. ID the last round since I didn't care for the Foil Rishadan Port.
Round 1. RW Painter. Win 2-0
Game 1, he goes painter pass. I therapy naming Painter's Servant. I whiff but see 2 Imperial Recruiters and a blast (and 2 lands). On his next turn he plays land go. I play a bob and sacrifice it to get rid of both Recruiters. I play a Liliana of the Veil later backed up by Lingering Souls and Jitte FTW.
Game 2. He mulls to 5. I kill things. GG.
Round 2. Death and Taxes. Win 2-1
Game 1. On the play turn 1 Hymn to Tourach. He goes land vial. Turn 2, Hymn to Tourach. He goes land go. Turn 3 Liliana of the Veil. I eventually start spamming Lingering Soul Tokens. gg.
Game 2. He applies enough pressure with Thalia 1.0 and Flickerwisps that I couldn't stabilize.
Game 3. I have a Mystic and kill his. He council judgement's my Liliana the last hope but I have a Liliana of the Veil later plus the Batterskull beatdown with Mystic and Bob is enough to get there.
Round 3. BR reanimator. Win 2-1
Game 1. He's on the play and has a Chancellor in hand. He reanimates Grave titan turn 2. I don't have the plow, I had a Karakas in my opener.
Game 2. Turn 1 Thoughtseize. Turn 2 Remorseful Cleric. He reanimates a Grave Titan, which I let happen. I plow the Titan and Liliana of the Veil kills a token. I'm able to apply enough pressure with Cleric. He also tries to Exhume, which was funny.....so I exile in response and then get my Cleric back. I thought he might have had an entomb in hand, luckily he didn't.
Game 3. I mull to 3, Vindicate, Liliana of the Veil and a Surgical Extraction. Keep. Scry is Faerie Macabre. lol. Keep on top. He goes for the turn 1 Griselbrand. I surgical it. A few turns later he tries to exhume a Grave titan, I Macabre that and a Faithless Looting. I don't draw a single mana source for 4 turns. On the 5th turn, it's a Chrome Mox. I eventually am able to get a Alms Collector and a Liliana of the Veil out and am able to beatdown enough.
Round 4. ID. Opponent was on UB Show and tell. Interesting.
-Alms collector did some beatdown but only use was as a beater. Against BR reanimator I had already Surgical extracted his Griselbrands, leaving Faithless Looting as the only card I could have affected and he already used 2 of them up by the time I landed Collector.
-Shambling Vent attacked a couple of times. I think it was against either Reanimator and/or Death and Taxes.
-Sideboard MVP would have to be Surgical and Faerie Macabre. Showed up when it mattered most and thankfully don't require mana to use. :D
-Maindeck MVP would have to be Liliana of the Veil. Killed Thalia 1.0 and an Inkwell Leviathan.
Hmmm....Divine Visitation is kinda bad IMHO. 5 mana that doesn't do anything on its own. Sure something happens when Lingering Souls, Batterskull, Gideon Ally of Zendikar or Liliana ulitmate are cast/activated. But seems a bit win more for some of them. Even in a dedicated BW token build (which is obviously better suited to than this deck), I'm not sure if it good enough.
Hello All:
When I get the opportunity, I'm going to build this on MTGO and take it for a spin in a few leagues:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Palace Jailer
2 Lingering Souls
2 Remorseful Cleric
=16
*
3 Liliana of the Veil*
3 Thoughtseize
1 Cabal Therapy
3 Hymn To Tourach
1 Liliana the Last Hope
=11
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate
2 Abeyance
1 Shadow of Doubt
=10
2 Chrome Mox
Lands:
4 Marsh Flats
2 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
3 Swamps
1 Karakas
1 Plains
1 Mishra's Factory
=21
Sb:
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Disenchant
1 Nahiri, the Lithomancer
1 Kaya, Ghost Assassin
1 Containment Priest
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Humility
1 Imp's Mischief
1 Diabolic Edict
Thoughts?
Looks fine. lol, does look similar to what I run so no bias there.
I would maybe take out Nahiri for another Liliana, the Last Hope. Hope is insane. A weenie creature killing machine with a win con. Plus I find getting to 5 mana to be difficult at times. I ran an Ob Nixilis Reignited for a while but stuck on 4 lands for a long time.
Never tried Kaya before. Might be alright. IMO, in terms of being able to kill an opponent without creature combat.
Played a FNM and a mini tournament this weekend. 0-3 in FNM and 4-0-1 in swiss in other, split top 4. Got to play turn 1 Tsabo's Web and turn 2 Liliana, the Last Hope vs Death and Taxes. gg. Made Karakas into a lotus petal is nice.
Nice. Chrome Mox seems to allow 'broken' things for fair decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilkin
What happened in the 0-3 FNM?
Yeah, being able to cast a turn 1 Dark Confidant or Stoneforge is still amazing, backed up by a turn 2 Liliana.
Lost to Reanimator in FNM round 1. 3 games. He won game 1 as i didn't have enough disruption. Won game 2 with Leyline of the Void in opening 7. Game 3 mull to Oblivion.
Lost to Pox in round 2 and 3. 3 games in round 2. Attrition matchup that i didn't win, got unlucky though as I had a ton of outs but didn't get them in round 2. Round 3, Bob flipped Gurmag and then Shriekmaw in game 1, round 3. Wasn't meant to be.
I've built Deadguy on MTGO and played 3 leagues. I have a terrible, terrible match win percentage. The strength of competition and my relative inexperience with the program create a lot of issues. But, the biggest factor is the frequency of combo.
I played a version with 2 Shadow of Doubt. That card rarely came up. If one were to hold up Shadow of Doubt in anticipation of stifling a fetch, they could easily just play out actual mana-producing lands.
I am now considering running Abeyance. At least versus the many Storm decks, I'll have a card that imitates Silence/Orim's Chant and cantrips.
My current deck list is basically the same as all of yours, not currently running any of the cute Abeyance/Shadow of Doubt/etc.
Finally got to play Alms Collector as I had hoped.
Against Blue White Miracles. Empty board, my opponent has 5 mana, taps 4 leaving an Island open and slams Jace, the Mind Sculptor. No plow. Oh yeah. 0- Brainstorm. I slam Collector. Meow. He draws one and puts 2 back. I draw one.....and then kill jace on my turn. He doesn't draw removal for the Cat Cleric and dies to that and Thalia, Guardian of Thraben.
Against Grixis Control, I get a Brainstorm with Collector. Lol, he later tells me he drew a Brainstorm with Brainstorm. So he puts back that Brainstorm and a land to shuffle away. He didn't draw removal for the Cleric either and dies to it too.
Sure, Alms Collector is no Notion Thief but Collector is in my colors and is probably more tilting for them to lose to that card. Plus, being a 3/4 means Snapcaster and Clique can't kill it in single combat. I was on the fence about the Collector until last weekend.