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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tom4ik
Blue is certainly a way to solve some of those issues. Access to Fow and other hard counters allows the deck to really play the long game effectively. Baleful strix is the best 2 drop for nic fit (cantrip, blue for fow, and lessens the chance you get blown away by aggro). Jace is the best planeswalker or really 4 drop in general as we have early discard and deed to back him up. BS is a better GSZ as its not as targeted but can smooth out the hands to ensure you dont die to land flood/screw.
The problem with blue in my view has been kind of 2 fold. The first is that the deck is way slower than any other nic fit. Even pfire has primeval titan into wolfrun to just win when you get to 6-7 land. Blue has that issue. The second is I see a lot of people in this thread want to be "creative". Blue decks tend to play a lot of the same cards other legacy decks do like BS, Fow, Jace, etc so the deck doesnt have as much of a rogue feel. Maybe thats wrong idk.
I've usually had a lack of response whenever I've posted about the BUG version here. I think a lot of people are on Nic Fit because they don't want to play blue. I've had a ton of success with my version, though. I'll post my current list below, has about two years of refining behind it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Navsi
With regards to 3-colour lists with Colorless for Thought-knot, has anyone tried putting him into BUG? I know that BUG builds already have similar solutions to the same problems in Glen Elendra Archmage, but the beatdown potential of Thought-Knot could speed up the otherwise anemic game-ending abilities of the blue builds.
@Arianrhod
In the GB<> Midrange list, do you think a Tasigur might be worth it? You are running Empath, so having an immediately castable target seems useful.
In the GBW control list, do you really need all those wincons? I'd be tempted to say at least a few of them could be swapped for more interaction or filtering to make the deck less top-heavy, maybe leaving one of the 4-drops (Meren IMO, since you don't run Arbor or Nightmare) for another Deed/Deluge to capitalise on your walkers and fatties?
I don't really like it. You can't pitch it to force and it's competing with Jace, Glen Elendra etc which are way better cards. It's a pretty fair card when you're not cheating it out at a discount. The only deck where the slow clock is an issue is Storm and this is NOT the card for that matchup. The blue deck is a control deck, not a midrange deck, and adding one dumb beater won't really change that - it just makes you worse at your plan A. Maybe there's a more midrangey version that wants this card but I still don't understand why you would play it without Eye of Ugin / Eldrazi Temple.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Echelon
The combo finish is something that should be looked into though. It's what made me choose Manaless Dredge for todays Monthly over Nic Fit. The prospect of quick games excites me. For Nic Fit the question is just what combo to go for.
My first response would be to say that at least one of the combo pieces should be findable by GSZ, but using creatures to combo off doesn't really solve the Miracles problem. So we'll have to use lands/instants/sorceries/artifacts/enchantments/Planeswalkers to combo off.
Anyone have any suggestions?
I ran show and tell + griselbrand for awhile as 3-ofs in a sort of combo-control version. You could Intuition for a missing combo piece or just for Therapies for value. Or even hard-cast griselbrand. It wasn't that bad and was really fun but definitely worse than my normal list.
Here's what I've been running:
Spells:
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Force of Will
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Ponder
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
Creatures:
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Grave Titan
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
2 Thragtusk
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Sower of Temptation
4 Baleful Strix
Lands (21):
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
3 Island
1 Bayou
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 3 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Arcane Laboratory
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Invasive Surgery
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
The 4th Force of Will or Sower main is a total meta call, as is Deed vs Deluge. You could also run Notion Thief or whatever you fancy over the Sower, it's easily the weakest card in the list, usually stealing a Goyf or Thalia or something, although every once in awhile you put it in off Show and Tell and jack an Emrakul and win on the spot.
The three matchups I'm working on are D&T, Miracles, and ANT. The first two are right about 50/50 and ANT is 60/40 pre-board and about 55/45 post-board. Most of the other fair decks are favored and my other combo matchups are also pretty good (except Painter, 7 maindeck pyroblast effects absolutely ruins this deck). I've been tweaking my sideboard to deal with these decks; I think I can get ANT to where it's favored post-board if I can find the right combination of clock and permanent-based disruption.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Whelp. I hate the modo metagame today.
Lost to post. in 2
Lost to infect in 3
Lost to storm. in 2
Lost to Belcher. in 2
and again to the same belcher player. in 3 this time.
Wtf. This is using Ari's latest build. I miss Teeg.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rubblekill
DRS: the guy is not here to fix mana and/or ramp necessarily, since he basically is a little threat by himself. Against storm I can count more times I have won thanks to him than the ones I closed the game thanks to, say, rhino or other bigger guys. I feel that the cost of running him is very low, with high upside. It is only one card after all.
DRS meaningfully interacts with almost every deck in the format, I can't imagine not running it.
Quote:
In the 1 rhino version, I feel like a second tusk is needed, both for the life gain AND the card advantage he provides against control. 5 power is very very nice against eldrazi and goyfs. I suggest you play a second one!
Been thinking about a Thragtusk in my version, it's a pretty narrow pool of cards I have to pick from because I'm looking for things I can GSZ and I like to use Bob so the flip damage is always a concern. Thragtusk negates that risk like no other 5's can.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bobmans
A good year ago Domri Rade fell on my radar to. It is really awesome when you have SDT, Courser and Domri Rade out, but it was very lackluster on its own. Also not running Liliana of the Veil in a jund list is kind of a miss. Liliana gives us some reach in the lack of Plows. Plus, the card is also helpful vs combo.
Gitrog Monster seems out of place here, fighting Angler might be addressed with a different approach. The Deathtouch seems awkward on a 6/6, since most creatures die to it anyway, but it is a trade with anything bigger.
Mina and Denn fall under the same category as Domri Rade, when it works it is awesome, but most of the times it ain't Christmas.
Something really sweet that is borderline playable, but suits here better then Gitrog Monster is
Omnath, Locus of Rage. CMC 7 is a lot, and it dying to Plow is a thing, but man once you get this going with all the lands interactions your are in for a fun ride. I have played it for a while in a PFire list and in a ScapeWish list with an adjusted creature base. I really wanted to push this forward, but i didn't have the time to tune it any further.
Maelstrom Pulse is necessary in a Jund list. We just need that little bit of reach. How was the Murderous Cut?
Domri is interesting, because I run such a SDT heavy list I've been looking for ways where I can generate advantage, and then generate additional advantage out of Top or other cards in the CA package. Tracker does this, Courser does this, Bob does this, and it's what takes CA from being good to being great, in addition to always using cards that effect the board (so no Library here). Domri is something I think can fit into that package, but it would require a specific build. Courser seems to be about the lowest amount of raw CA that seems viable so that's what I'm using as a starting point for Domri, which means it's going to need a 20 creature list to be considered. At the same time though, Domri needs cards that fight, and while Courser fights Delver like a champ, the other cards we play below 4 CMC aren't really all that well suited for it, so that's the part of using it that's going unfilled right now. I'm not quite sure what I'm looking for in a fight creature, but I know I want something green as a 2 drop, Ooze gets close and so does Pridemage due to exalting something else but Pridemage would make it 4 color. Strangleroot Geist fights well, but he does bad things to the mana.
Liliana is a good card but I'm not sure it belongs here, our cards are generally more valuable than the opponents since they're bigger creatures, they're only worse than the opponents cards against combo. Liliana works in a very different sort of list than Domri does.
As far as Omnath goes, I like to top my lists out at 4-5 I find I don't really get to 7, much less 8 to GSZ it until too late in the game. 4 mana is this decks sweet spot because we start leveling off at 5 which is a GSZ for 4.
I think I'm over Jund for now though, I dislike running white but Rhinos, Swords/Path, and so on just work too well. But I'll continue searching for pieces with Domri, because it might give me other ideas for the core.
Edit: Another random thought, as I'm searching through 2 drops that can potentially be fighters I came across Magus of the Library. Has anyone ever tried it? If it works, it could be the elusive 2 drop I'm looking for in my build loaded with CA. Top could assist here with being something to play out and use mana on early, but then puts a card back in your hand when it's time to use Magus. T1 land, Top, T2 land magus. That sequence assuming you're on the draw puts you back up to 7 cards on T3. I suppose discard or unfair decks can really screw with it though.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
@Brael: Maybe try viridian emissary - at least it supports our overall ramping plan.
I thought about him a few times but domri could do the trick
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Emissary is pretty cool with Diabolic Intent...
On an unrelated note - I finally attended a tournament this weekend (ran Manaless Dredge over Nic Fit though) and at some point there were some people playing EDH. While seeing people play EDH (and hearing them say "who wants to be milled for 2 cards this turn?" with the seriousness and determination of an ANT/TES pilot) when you're about to flip your deck vs. UR Delver on turn 3 or so is hilarious enough on its own, the thing that really got me was that the guy right next to me had Karador as his commander and at some point they had a discussion about how Karador was a wonderful card, but just for EDH (those who've been dwelling on this board for some time now might get why that would be funny to me specifically). To make it even more hilarious I was playing vs. someone I knew quite well and he was looking at me with a huge grin on his face as this conversation was taking place. It was so hard to not laugh out loud.
It was right up there with the newbies talking about how bad 1/1s are just as I was going off on someone with Elves! on like turn 3. Stuff like that always makes my day. Kinda like the sun on a rainy day.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Echelon
Emissary is pretty cool with Diabolic Intent...
Unfortunately, compared to other 2-drops in legacy, he just lacks a lot of mojo.
In my preparations for GP Prague I played several testgames with my current Scapeshift build. I guess I was masochistic that day since I played only against Miracles, Infect and Eldrazi (6 each - 2 preboard, 4 post-board). - 5-1 Against Miracles: the 3 Slaughter Games and the increased discard after boarding, combined with a land-based wincondition really did the trick.
- 2-4 Infect is really hard with GBR without Punishing Fire (and even with it). Abrupt Decay doesn't handle the inkmoth and only once was I able to ramp hard enough to deal with it via Valakut triggers. The other game I won by my epic Cabal Therapy calls ;)
- 1-5 Eldrazi... wtf. I saw T1 Thought Knot Seers, T1 Chalice, and T3 kills. In 3 games I was able to stabilize on 2-4 life, only to get killed by their manland. I won 1 game du to 3 Explorers (the first one got exiled...) ramping me into Scapeshift-win.
Lessons learned:
- Tireless Tracker is good against Miracles
- Punishing Fire would be nice to have against Infect an Manlands
- I think Scapeshift lists have a better Miracles MU than the rest I tried
- and they have a harder time against Infect and Eldrazi
Next Steps:
- Build a red List with Blood Moon as a Sideboard plan - it's a natural match I think. It solves the issues that led to my losses (manlands, eldrazi-ramp)
- Build it with Ancient Tomb for T2 Moons and general Ramp. (EDIT: well that one is pretty stupid maybe)
- Keep the 3-of Tireless Tracker as they do stuff
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
So... Is anyone following the Legacy Mediocre League? Dayv Doberne is piloting what seems like pretty standard Junk Fit with 2 (or so) MD Birthing Pods. Does run SFM, by the way.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Echelon
So... Is anyone following the Legacy Mediocre League? Dayv Doberne is piloting what seems like pretty standard Junk Fit with 2 (or so) MD Birthing Pods. Does run SFM, by the way.
I'm not sure I would call his list standard. He's also playing an Eldrazi Displacer with a single Wastes splashed in to activate the thing. He's also not playing any 6-drops to Pod Thragtusk into, which I think is wrong. Admittedly, with the way the League's deck selections went, any 6-drop he ran would've just been sideboarded out anyway probably, but in the abstract I still think that it would be completely correct to run either Sun Titan or Dromoka in that list against an open field.
There's a couple other things that I know stood out to me, although damned if I can remember them at the moment.
@Rubble: I view Dromoka as being more important than Gitrog. If I could only have one of them, I would cut the Gitrog every single time. I'd recommend -Gitrog for +Tusk, personally.
@Jbone: yikes. I hope I don't have many leagues like that :/
@emu: keep something in mind with Blood Moon: lands in particular is boarding in Grips against basically anything at this point due to the popularity of Blood Moon, Ensnaring Bridge, Top, etc. I certainly endorse Blood Moon as a plan, but I think you need to be actively pressuring them somehow if you run it. Just jamming a couple Moons in the sideboard of a control list that has a glacial clock is probably not going to work out. If you opt for the middle option, and run it with Ancient Tombs, that lets you run Thought-Knots of your own (and Wails in the board, probably). Groves, Tombs, and a Waste would be more than enough to justify the slight <> splash, especially if you're running the Tombs for other reasons (like faster Moons vs some matchups).
On that topic, you might want to consider also running a copy or two of Magus of the Moon, at least in the board. A lot of Lands decks will board out their Punishing Fires vs us, which might allow you to steal a win. Just my 2c.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
After some more thought, I don't think the Magus idea will work which is too bad. It had me excited last night as a green 2 drop that can provide some ongoing CA but it's too many cards invested to get it going and pretty useless late game. Maybe one of the land bouncers (Quirion Ranger, Scryb Ranger) alongside more Tireless Tracker would make for a good engine, but there's not that many tap effects to abuse besides DRS. Maybe that's an excuse for Sakura Tribe Elder, it does the same thing late game but also ramps early.
Edit: This thread convinced me to pick up some Stoneforge Mystics, thankfully I already own the equipment suite. I'll probably try them out sometime in the next few weeks. I have a question on deck construction though, Fire and Ice seems to be the best sword, but assuming I go with a 2x Sword 1 Jitte package, which sword is the second best sword to use? Has anyone found a sideboard Sword to work well, and if so which one?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
emuhell
@Brael: Maybe try viridian emissary - at least it supports our overall ramping plan.
I thought about him a few times but domri could do the trick
Dies triggers make me hesitant in a world of Swords to Plowshares. Having a board of strong fighters would be interesting alongside Setessan Tactics, but I think Deed is just a better version of that.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Come on thread. That emissary card is trash. If you really want that card sylvan ranger is better and even then its just not a good enough card. This is ironic but BUG has the best 2 drop in Baleful strix. I know delirium is not the easiest to achieve but a GSZ that can get a non green creature would make BUG so much better. Problem being that it cannot grab the turn 2 vet which is major reason GSZ is so good.
This deck doesnt need more CA. Between Ptruths and Library and then top for dig the deck has great (and actual legacy playable) cards to use. I am not sure I like tracker which is just a card that is going to eat bolt/plow/decay ALL THE TIME as the deck has no targets for those cards a lot of the time but as a tutor target I dont hate it enough to care. The major thing is that when brewing this deck you should be less concerned with how to grind out lots of CA which we already have and more how are you going to survive against combo and miracles. Those are the decks that will give you trouble. Otherwise you can play the round pairing lottery and hope to dodge those I suppose.
I used to run 2 moon in my pfire list. They were for the post/lands match up. I suppose they can be brought in for shardless or smth but I never did. I wouldnt play them actually in jund. If you do not have a clock they dont do enough. Honestly, with red lands is terrible match up. I wouldnt bother with that match up. I only included moon because I had 1-2 post per week and 2 lands. Absurd. That and more than a few miracles lists and I was like screw this. I had MULTIPLE round draws that an entire game didnt finish against miracles. Then khans came out and delve was amazing (still miss Dig).
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tom4ik
This deck doesnt need more CA. Between Ptruths and Library and then top for dig the deck has great (and actual legacy playable) cards to use. I am not sure I like tracker which is just a card that is going to eat bolt/plow/decay ALL THE TIME as the deck has no targets for those cards a lot of the time but as a tutor target I dont hate it enough to care. The major thing is that when brewing this deck you should be less concerned with how to grind out lots of CA which we already have and more how are you going to survive against combo and miracles. Those are the decks that will give you trouble. Otherwise you can play the round pairing lottery and hope to dodge those I suppose.
I disagree, more CA has worked very well for me. With my current build that devotes 12 cards towards CA/selection I can outpace most blue decks, which means I can also find high impact sideboard cards with extreme regularity. With a creature focused deck in Legacy this is important because it allows you to land threats through all of the opponents interaction. What we win the game with doesn't matter, any reasonable creature kills the opponent, but getting something through all the removal, counterspells, and discard requires CA.
Tracker is fantastic, remember that must remove cards like Tracker get better as you add more must remove cards to the deck. Enough of them will overload the opponents resources. A handful of creatures like Tracker is useless, 20 of them mixed with other CA though gets to be pretty damn useful. I don't understand the 1 of Trackers though, I can honestly say I have never GSZ'ed for a Tracker, I love to draw them, I just don't love tutoring them.
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Edit: Let me ask another question too that's been on my mind for a few weeks. The answer was more obvious when we were running Recurring Nightmare and trying to loop some creatures over and over, but with the focus (atleast in some builds) on continuing board presence and the general need for a solid 2 drop in the deck... why aren't we running Goyf?
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Agreed - 3 Trackers were fine in my testing so far.
@emissary: i also think this card is not good enough for legacy.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brael
I disagree, more CA has worked very well for me. With my current build that devotes 12 cards towards CA/selection I can outpace most blue decks, which means I can also find high impact sideboard cards with extreme regularity. With a creature focused deck in Legacy this is important because it allows you to land threats through all of the opponents interaction. What we win the game with doesn't matter, any reasonable creature kills the opponent, but getting something through all the removal, counterspells, and discard requires CA.
Tracker is fantastic, remember that must remove cards like Tracker get better as you add more must remove cards to the deck. Enough of them will overload the opponents resources. A handful of creatures like Tracker is useless, 20 of them mixed with other CA though gets to be pretty damn useful. I don't understand the 1 of Trackers though, I can honestly say I have never GSZ'ed for a Tracker, I love to draw them, I just don't love tutoring them.
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Edit: Let me ask another question too that's been on my mind for a few weeks. The answer was more obvious when we were running Recurring Nightmare and trying to loop some creatures over and over, but with the focus (atleast in some builds) on continuing board presence and the general need for a solid 2 drop in the deck... why aren't we running Goyf?
Do you even want a 2-drop when you're running a bunch of deeds?
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cliq
Do you even want a 2-drop when you're running a bunch of deeds?
The deck curves better with them, they let you keep a greater percentage of non vet hands and a GSZ for X=2, is the earliest point at which you can reasonably expect to get a beater onto the field against Miracles or Eldrazi. I typically only run 2 deeds, there's definitely a conflict with 2 drops, but at the same time if you're going to Deed you can either use the 2's to block for a couple turns beforehand, or you can play around it. Ooze+Deed is rarely if ever a problem for example.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
3-0'd the local tonight with my Mythic list -1 Batterskull +1 Pernicious Deed. I do still feel a hair light on lifegain, so I might try to find a way to squeeze in some other source of that somewhere -- but to be perfectly honest, it might not be a bad thing because having less lifegain is making me play tighter.
Gitrog was unbelievable on the night, but a lot of that is because most of the Magic I played tonight was vs the Nic Fit mirror in round 3 -- played vs my friend on Ultimate, and Gitrog is wildly unrealistic in the Nic Fit mirror. Between Tracker, Gitrog, and Painful Truths, my deck was very, very small both games. Also beat Sneak/Show in rd 1, and Elves in rd 2, although both were largely because I played tight and they both made a critical mistake that I was able to capitalize on (admittedly, Sneak/Show would've gone to game 3 with me on the play, and then who knows).
My Mythic list is likely within 2-3 cards of what I'll be playing at the GP, barring some kind of major change in the sideboard between now and then. The deck just feels really solid, to be honest. It's doing everything I want it to, how I want it to. I realize that won't necessarily help everyone else, because everyone needs to find their own specific speed and build that they're personally happy with, but I'm very close to mine, for sure.
Oh, also, Elspeth is a goddamn workhorse. She won me two more games by herself tonight, and played a role in a third.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arianrhod
3-0'd the local tonight with my Mythic list -1 Batterskull +1 Pernicious Deed. I do still feel a hair light on lifegain, so I might try to find a way to squeeze in some other source of that somewhere -- but to be perfectly honest, it might not be a bad thing because having less lifegain is making me play tighter.
Gitrog was unbelievable on the night, but a lot of that is because most of the Magic I played tonight was vs the Nic Fit mirror in round 3 -- played vs my friend on Ultimate, and Gitrog is wildly unrealistic in the Nic Fit mirror. Between Tracker, Gitrog, and Painful Truths, my deck was very, very small both games. Also beat Sneak/Show in rd 1, and Elves in rd 2, although both were largely because I played tight and they both made a critical mistake that I was able to capitalize on (admittedly, Sneak/Show would've gone to game 3 with me on the play, and then who knows).
My Mythic list is likely within 2-3 cards of what I'll be playing at the GP, barring some kind of major change in the sideboard between now and then. The deck just feels really solid, to be honest. It's doing everything I want it to, how I want it to. I realize that won't necessarily help everyone else, because everyone needs to find their own specific speed and build that they're personally happy with, but I'm very close to mine, for sure.
Oh, also, Elspeth is a goddamn workhorse. She won me two more games by herself tonight, and played a role in a third.
Scrubs who dont post their lists get no love - TLC
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sdematt
Scrubs who dont post their lists get no love - TLC
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Master of the Wild Hunt
1 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Gitrog
1 DL Dromoka
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Vindicate
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Painful Truths
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Library
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant
4 Heath
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
sb::
2 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Gaze of Granite
2 Tsunami
1 Celestial Purge
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Krosan Grip
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Old Sorin, over New Sorin? Reasoning behind that Ari?
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jbone2016
Old Sorin, over New Sorin? Reasoning behind that Ari?
Lots of small reasons. Some of it is that I don't want to run the third Top, which I think is necessary to run S-GN. S-LoI synergizes better with Garruk-R and Elspeth-SC, which is relevant to my grindy plan. Another reason is that I don't want two 6-drop planeswalkers, and I prefer Elspeth over Sorin at 6 mana. I do admit that SGN is a playable card, but Elspeth has put in such a tremendous amount of work for me that I'd be very hard pressed to move away from her at this point. Like...I gave up SUN TITAN for this card. That is not something I say lightly. I also think that, as good as SGN is vs Miracles, SoI is slightly better just because he comes down so much earlier and races both Jace and Nahiri, removal not counted (Sorin 3+1, Nahiri 4+2, Sorin 4+1, hit Nahiri for 1, Nahiri 5+2, Sorin 5+1, hit Nahiri for 2, Nahiri 5+2, Sorin ult, kill+take Nahiri). Obviously the math changes a little if Snapcaster/Swords is involved, but I'm also assuming that you're not sitting there mindlessly plussing Sorin every turn and are actually playing cards too. SGN does do a bunch of damage to walkers with his -X, but he can whiff on killing them...especially higher loyalty ones like Jace and Nahiri. He's obviously insane vs Liliana of the Veil and other, lower loyalty walkers.
One final, minor reason for LoI over GN is that LoI comes in vs combo decks. Very frequently you end up on Veteran + E.Wit beatdown vs combo, and LoI fundamentally changes the clock that combo expects to have to work with by virtue of his emblem. One of the best ways to beat combo is to let them think that they have X number of turns to work with, and then surprise them with a sudden burst of damage that, even if not lethal, changes their plans from having X turns, to instead X-3 turns.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
emuhell
Unfortunately, compared to other 2-drops in legacy, he just lacks a lot of mojo.
In my preparations for GP Prague I played several testgames with my current Scapeshift build. I guess I was masochistic that day since I played only against Miracles, Infect and Eldrazi (6 each - 2 preboard, 4 post-board).
- 5-1 Against Miracles: the 3 Slaughter Games and the increased discard after boarding, combined with a land-based wincondition really did the trick.
- 2-4 Infect is really hard with GBR without Punishing Fire (and even with it). Abrupt Decay doesn't handle the inkmoth and only once was I able to ramp hard enough to deal with it via Valakut triggers. The other game I won by my epic Cabal Therapy calls ;)
- 1-5 Eldrazi... wtf. I saw T1 Thought Knot Seers, T1 Chalice, and T3 kills. In 3 games I was able to stabilize on 2-4 life, only to get killed by their manland. I won 1 game du to 3 Explorers (the first one got exiled...) ramping me into Scapeshift-win.
Lessons learned:
- Tireless Tracker is good against Miracles
- Punishing Fire would be nice to have against Infect an Manlands
- I think Scapeshift lists have a better Miracles MU than the rest I tried
- and they have a harder time against Infect and Eldrazi
Next Steps:
- Build a red List with Blood Moon as a Sideboard plan - it's a natural match I think. It solves the issues that led to my losses (manlands, eldrazi-ramp)
- Build it with Ancient Tomb for T2 Moons and general Ramp. (EDIT: well that one is pretty stupid maybe)
- Keep the 3-of Tireless Tracker as they do stuff
I'll be playing in GP Columbus this weekend, so I thought I'd post my list to compare to your Scapefit.
I played Mina and Denn this past weekend. Though I didn't see them too often, the seemed really good in conjunction with Tireless Tracker. Not to mention they can blank Wasteland and allow for recasting of Mountains.
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Mina and Denn, Wildborn
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Wood Elves
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Burning Wish
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Scapeshift
1 Thoughtseize
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Swamp
4 Taiga
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Pithing Needle
1 Dryad Militant
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Cabal Therapy
1 From the Ashes
1 Innocent Blood
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Massacre
1 Pyroclasm
1 Scapeshift
1 Thoughtseize
2 Slaughter Games
Generally From the Ashes is my answer to man lands (Eldrazi Stompy, Turbo Eldrazi, Metalworker, Infect) though it can be on the slow side if you don't get the explosive Veteran start. Pithing Needle is a good answer to Inkmoth and Eye of Ugin.
I haven't really found Eldrazi Stompy to be an issue. Yes, they get the nuts sometimes with T1 Chalice T2 TKS T3 Smasher, but most decks can't handle that, so I just accept that it happens sometimes. Most of the time E Stompy sucks.
What do you guys think?
More Tireless Trackers? I somewhat hesitate because of the Pernicious Deeds that always perform better than expected.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arianrhod
Lots of small reasons. Some of it is that I don't want to run the third Top, which I think is necessary to run S-GN. S-LoI synergizes better with Garruk-R and Elspeth-SC, which is relevant to my grindy plan. Another reason is that I don't want two 6-drop planeswalkers, and I prefer Elspeth over Sorin at 6 mana. I do admit that SGN is a playable card, but Elspeth has put in such a tremendous amount of work for me that I'd be very hard pressed to move away from her at this point. Like...I gave up SUN TITAN for this card. That is not something I say lightly. I also think that, as good as SGN is vs Miracles, SoI is slightly better just because he comes down so much earlier and races both Jace and Nahiri, removal not counted (Sorin 3+1, Nahiri 4+2, Sorin 4+1, hit Nahiri for 1, Nahiri 5+2, Sorin 5+1, hit Nahiri for 2, Nahiri 5+2, Sorin ult, kill+take Nahiri). Obviously the math changes a little if Snapcaster/Swords is involved, but I'm also assuming that you're not sitting there mindlessly plussing Sorin every turn and are actually playing cards too. SGN does do a bunch of damage to walkers with his -X, but he can whiff on killing them...especially higher loyalty ones like Jace and Nahiri. He's obviously insane vs Liliana of the Veil and other, lower loyalty walkers.
One final, minor reason for LoI over GN is that LoI comes in vs combo decks. Very frequently you end up on Veteran + E.Wit beatdown vs combo, and LoI fundamentally changes the clock that combo expects to have to work with by virtue of his emblem. One of the best ways to beat combo is to let them think that they have X number of turns to work with, and then surprise them with a sudden burst of damage that, even if not lethal, changes their plans from having X turns, to instead X-3 turns.
I agree with you on LoI. Actually been wondering if in a walker list Nissa, Voice of Zendikar is worth it as a 3 cmc combat walker, she puts 0 power on the board but does block.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brael
I agree with you on LoI. Actually been wondering if in a walker list Nissa, Voice of Zendikar is worth it.
Nissa is likely great vs Miracles, and questionable elsewhere. She loses to Abrupt Decay and Reality Smasher, which hurts badly since that makes up a large amount of the population of the format. Against Tundra decks, though, she comes down quick (potentially turn 2 after Vet/Therapy, although doing that is dangerous vs Tundra, obviously), and she threatens to draw a billion cards. Unfortunately, the life gain portion of her ult isn't terribly relevant vs Tundra.dec. With a Sorin emblem, though, she could spiral out of control much harder, I agree. Nissa VoZ and Sorin LoI is likely a powerful combination for a walker oriented build. Diabolic Intent is likely very good in this deck, as well, which opens up a lot of other interesting possibilities.
On the topic of the combo discussion a number of posts/pages back that I'd missed:
This is something that is near to the top of my priority list for Nic Fit between Columbus (possibly EE4 if I can find people that are going locally), and Eternal Weekend. There's a nice 4 month long gap between premier Legacy events, and I intend on using that time frame to /thoroughly/ examine the various <> builds, and to look harder into the various combos that we are capable of pulling off. Revisiting Thune is on that list, as is Birthing Pod shenanigans.
For right now, though, there's just flat out no time. As it is, I'm not going to be as well prepared as I want to be -- I think that my list will be solid, but I definitely haven't tested nearly enough. I'm going to jam as much as I can this week, but I'm to the point where I am basically locked in on GBW just out of time concerns. EW2016 is far enough out that I think we can get some of these other builds teased out and tested a bit.
On that topic, we definitely need lists of people going to Columbus and Prague, respectively, so that we can meet up and bird each other throughout the event.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Well, Sorin, the Lord, is sweet. Just played against Miracles and it was awesome. Tsunami was a little better. Opponent forced the first one......then I got 8 islands with the 2nd.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arianrhod
Nissa is likely great vs Miracles, and questionable elsewhere.
After thinking about it for a bit I agree. The PW curve is better off starting at 4. Thinking of SFM builds, I find the idea of SFM alongside Nahiri interesting, she's technically a combat walker and the free equip isn't nothing (even gets back equipment if it's destroyed), plus you're already supporting the WW for presumably Sigarda or Elspeth, Sun's Champion. This might be worthy of some more thought.
On the subject of losing to Reality Smasher though, do any PW's beat Reality Smasher? I can't think of anything other than the biggest baddest Elspeth, and that's too late in the game.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
LotV if they don't have any other creatures, but (from what I've seen this weekend) Reality Smasher is far from the first thing to hit the battlefield.
Aren't there other ways we can deal with it, like tap it down? Someone mentioned Thornscape Apprentice as a cheap, GSZ'able way to tap it down. If you worry about Endbringer you can always opt for the 2 mana, non-GSZ'able alternative I suppose. Or Glissa, which might be an absolute must vs. Eldrazi (but sucks everywhere else).
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brael
After thinking about it for a bit I agree. The PW curve is better off starting at 4. Thinking of SFM builds, I find the idea of SFM alongside Nahiri interesting, she's technically a combat walker and the free equip isn't nothing (even gets back equipment if it's destroyed), plus you're already supporting the WW for presumably Sigarda or Elspeth, Sun's Champion. This might be worthy of some more thought.
On the subject of losing to Reality Smasher though, do any PW's beat Reality Smasher? I can't think of anything other than the biggest baddest Elspeth, and that's too late in the game.
After smasher....Ob Nixillis? Maybe Gideon Jura
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
If you can get him down quickly enough, a flipped Garruk Relentless causes trouble for Smasher with his 1/1 Deathtouch wolves.
Sarkhan Vol can steal it, which is still pretty good, and you can potentially do sacrifice type things with Tower / Therapy / Pod.
Kiora the Crashing Wave and Tamiyo can keep it locked up indefinitely if there are no other threats on the board.
Ob Nix, Liliana, Gideon and Vraska, as mentioned already.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jbone2016
After smasher....Ob Nixillis? Maybe Gideon Jura
What about Apex Predator for surviving smashers? He goes to 6, makes a 3/3 DT blocker, Smasher tramples 2 putting Garruk to 4, you can +1 to 5 and have another blocker or -3 and kill another threat leaving Garruk at 1 (assuming he didn't take hits from another creature). 5GB is a lot and isn't possible until T3 with the right setup.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TTX
I'll be playing in GP Columbus this weekend, so I thought I'd post my list to compare to your Scapefit.
I played Mina and Denn this past weekend. Though I didn't see them too often, the seemed really good in conjunction with Tireless Tracker. Not to mention they can blank Wasteland and allow for recasting of Mountains.
...
What do you guys think?
More Tireless Trackers? I somewhat hesitate because of the Pernicious Deeds that always perform better than expected.
Thanks for your list! It looks really solid and I like the Idea of Mina and Denn - Huntmaster is not what it used to be, so maybe I found my new 4-drop (the Troll also wants to come back though).
I played the following in my preparations:
1 Eternal Witness
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
3 Tireless Tracker
2 Wood Elves
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Diabolic Intent
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Scapeshift
1 Innocent Blood
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Badlands
4 Taiga
1 Stomping Grounds
2 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
--- SB
3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Slaughter Games
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Duress
2 Disfigure
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Ob Nixilis, Reignited
I dropped the wishboard to get a more effective overall sideboard plan and to get more space in the mainboard. I already wrote that this deck still has some issues, but 2 Scapeshift + 2 Intent with 3 Tops and fetchlands lets me usually find the combo when needed.
Issues:
- Reliably have enough stuff to sacrifice into Intent
- Be able to remove big threats early
- General lack of good spot-removal
I read Glissa, the Traitor somewhere - thats a nice idea to handle eldrazis. It even has some synergy with Engineered Explosives. Executioner's Capsule anyone? (Nah.. that's too cheesy, I know)
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
emuhell
I've said it before and I'll say it again. And again. And again:
Glissa just says BGG: 3/3, First strike, deathtouch.
All else is flavor text.
You will not ever run enough artifacts to make use of her other ability. Especially since normally she'll just be a SB slot to specifically deal with Eldrazi. That's just The Danger Of Cool Stuff.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Echelon
I've said it before and I'll say it again. And again. And again.
Glissa just says BGG: 3/3, First strike, deathtouch.
All else is flavor text.
You will not ever run enough artifacts to make use of her in that way. Especially since normally she'll just be a SB slot to specifically deal with Eldrazi. That's just The Danger Of Cool Stuff.
And I say, she gets dismembered very fast by eldrazi pilots..no very smart as a 1 of creature imo
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
If they have it. And so does everything else up to Siege Rhino, so what's your point? They run 3 or so and have no way to dig for it. Also, you have CT to clear the way. So you should feel free to take your chances.
Edit: To compare: You have more chance of Glissa sticking vs. Eldrazi than Gaddock Teeg vs. ANT/TES and we find Teeg a perfectly fine answer to ANT/TES. I've never heard anybody go "but they board in Chain of Vapor and Abrupt Decay" (even though they run about 4 of those on average and have Brainstorms, Ponders, Preordains and when needed Infernal Tutors to look for them where Eldrazi does not).
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Echelon
If they have it. And so does everything else up to Siege Rhino, so what's your point? They run 3 or so and have no way to dig for it. Also, you have CT to clear the way. So you should feel free to take your chances.
Siege rhino is usually (up until the last week) played as a 4 of; Glissa as a 1 of (even though she is still tutorable). I'd play something else to be honest instead of her, maybe some kind of removal that doesn't get obliterated by dismember (and the usual TKS ETB ability).
E: infact we never play only 1 hate bear against storm. 2 canonists are a must WITH the teeg.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rubblekill
E: infact we never play only 1 hate bear against storm. 2 canonists are a must WITH the teeg.
And they all share the same weakness :wink:.
Besides, the point wasn't how much of what we were running. Although I like Glissa specifically b/c she's green. Running 1 means you have 5 copies of her in your deck vs. the 7 copies of Canonist + Teeg + GSZ. We could do worse. Your point was "but she dies to removal" :wink:. Which absolutely is true but isn't a reason for me to not go for it. Heck, the fact that she dies to removal is exactly why she's such an effective sideboard card - GSZ BABY! 1 slot, 5 cards out of your 60 are SB cards post-board. The alternative is that you spend 5 slots to have the same chance of drawing a SB card. I'm not sure if that's where you want to be (at least for the Eldrazi MU).
I like to use GSZ as low hanging fruit :smile:.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Echelon
And they all share the same weakness :wink:.
Besides, the point wasn't how much of what we were running. Although I like Glissa specifically b/c she's green. Running 1 means you have 5 copies of her in your deck vs. the 7 copies of Canonist + Teeg + GSZ. We could do worse. Your point was "but she dies to removal" :wink:. Which absolutely is true but isn't a reason for me to not go for it. Heck, the fact that she dies to removal is exactly why she's such an effective sideboard card - GSZ BABY! 1 slot, 5 cards out of your 60 are SB cards post-board. The alternative is that you spend 5 slots for the same chance of drawing that SB card. I'm not sure if that's where you want to be.
That was not my only point. The fact that she is a singleton in the deck means that when she dies we are done for. Why would we run a plethora of hate bears against storm otherwise?
I'd rather play a better card overall in my sideboard: Glissa is a bad card, that pretty much sees play only vs eldrazi in some player's sideboard. My point is: since she is a bad card I think it is better to play a more flexible sideboard card that can be useful against other decks (and doesn't die to removal). Against storm we don't have that option, because everything gets bounced by chain of vapors.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Glissa isnt strictly an Eldrazi thing. She can come in against most other midrange decks (Dnt, Shardless, sometimes delver variants, blade). Plus it is 1 slot that turns the Gsz into a super effective card. Tarmogoyf dies to dismember and I promise you I do not cut those against eldrazi and Glissa is much better than that. The positive thing is with Ewit in the deck too you have multiple ways to rebuy glissa.
I think that Glissa plus EE could be a thing. More likely though she plays well with Baleful strix in some pod build maybe.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tom4ik
Glissa isnt strictly an Eldrazi thing. She can come in against most other midrange decks (Dnt, Shardless, sometimes delver variants, blade). Plus it is 1 slot that turns the Gsz into a super effective card. Tarmogoyf dies to dismember and I promise you I do not cut those against eldrazi and Glissa is much better than that. The positive thing is with Ewit in the deck too you have multiple ways to rebuy glissa.
I think that Glissa plus EE could be a thing. More likely though she plays well with Baleful strix in some pod build maybe.
Infact I think that she is better in BUG (pod) builds for that very reason.
Goyf is a 2 mana threat that is the main win condition of many BUG decks, ran as a 4 of, it's not really the same thing is it? And I was talking about her "main" purpose against Eldrazi..the deck happens to play 3 dismembers on top of Jitte (sometimes), but that's my opinion.
Glissa against DnT? The deck that runs multiple Karakas..against Karakas.dec the only legend that usually stays in is Sigarda for obvious reasons, I always used to side out Meren against that deck but maybe it's just me. Although I think that siding out legend(s) against DnT is common sense, really.
I really think that we have better tools at our disposal. But that's the beauty of this archetype, so many cards that can be played! Even the bad ones :D
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rubblekill
Infact I think that she is better in BUG (pod) builds for that very reason.
Goyf is a 2 mana threat that is the main win condition of many BUG decks, ran as a 4 of, it's not really the same thing is it? And I was talking about her "main" purpose against Eldrazi..the deck happens to play 3 dismembers on top of Jitte (sometimes), but that's my opinion.
Glissa against DnT? The deck that runs multiple Karakas..against Karakas.dec the only legend that usually stays in is Sigarda for obvious reasons, I always used to side out Meren against that deck but maybe it's just me. Although I think that siding out legend(s) against DnT is common sense, really.
I really think that we have better tools at our disposal. But that's the beauty of this archetype, so many cards that can be played! Even the bad ones :D
No, I also side out Meren (and Gitrog/Dromoka) vs DnT. They aren't running as many Karaki as they used to, I think....only 2-3 now, I believe? But even at a 2-of, if they get one, it's just unbelievably backbreaking for those three cards.
As far as Eldrazi goes, it's basically a cointoss matchup that's mostly draw-dependent on both sides. We have hands that line up very well against some of their hands. They have the nuts sometimes. Shit happens, on both sides of the table. Smasher is annoying, but they have no card advantage or filtration at all (Eye of Ugin activation is pretty unreasonable, as it turns out, even in a mono-Sol Land deck). We (I) also have things like Gitrog and Dromoka at the top end, and both of those cards will single-handedly thrash Eldrazi in a suitably Glissa-like fashion, but without the same drawbacks. Gitrog survives Dismember, as does Dromoka, and Gitrog will still kill whatever it was blocking. Dromoka is just unlikely to block in general, since it's a 10 point life swing every attack, and by the time Dromoka hits, they'll be out of gas anyway, so their Mimics will be stranded, etc.
Basically the goal vs Eldrazi is just to live long enough to outlast their initial onslaught. The deck doesn't really have staying power -- the white versions with displacer can go longer, for sure, but they're also much less common -- if we survive to the 7-8 mana mark (keep in mind that we're ACTIVELY looking for Veterans in this matchup), we should be fine. At that point Zenith for Dromoka/Gitrog are online, Elspeth 2.0 is online, and Deed@5 is online. The whole trick is living to this point -- block as much damage as you can and play as defensively as you can.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
If someone was playing Bug and looking for a creature in the board for eldrazi and midrange decks Glissa seems a fine choice.
I thought your point was that creatures that die to dismember are not effective against eldrazi? In fact goyf is great against them because it puts them on dismember or wait for smasher to start pushing damage. Jitte shouldnt be a factor, come on. Decay or deed that away or use one of the other answers the deck has to artifacts.
Ok, your right. DnT probably should not be lumped in with the other decks that Glissa could be brought in for. I honestly just forgot this deck doesnt play wasteland when I was typing those decks out.
In general the eldrazi match might be tougher for this deck than most others in the format. Wasteland can useful against them. As is Fow because you are just trying to blunt their initial onslaught of cards and let them naturally flood out or draw the lower curve. Hymn is good and we have CT but Chalice on 1 can slow that until we decay/deed it. Honestly Thragtusk might be the go to right now. It was always an effective Gsz against mircales as gsz and thrag going back to library from terminus was hard for them to deal with. 5 power is the magic number for trading with smasher.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tom4ik
If someone was playing Bug and looking for a creature in the board for eldrazi and midrange decks Glissa seems a fine choice.
I thought your point was that creatures that die to dismember are not effective against eldrazi? In fact goyf is great against them because it puts them on dismember or wait for smasher to start pushing damage. Jitte shouldnt be a factor, come on. Decay or deed that away or use one of the other answers the deck has to artifacts.
Ok, your right. DnT probably should not be lumped in with the other decks that Glissa could be brought in for. I honestly just forgot this deck doesnt play wasteland when I was typing those decks out.
In general the eldrazi match might be tougher for this deck than most others in the format. Wasteland can useful against them. As is Fow because you are just trying to blunt their initial onslaught of cards and let them naturally flood out or draw the lower curve. Hymn is good and we have CT but Chalice on 1 can slow that until we decay/deed it. Honestly Thragtusk might be the go to right now. It was always an effective Gsz against mircales as gsz and thrag going back to library from terminus was hard for them to deal with. 5 power is the magic number for trading with smasher.
My point is that Goyf is your win condition (4 copies in the deck, not 1) so it is expected that the opponent brings even more removal after G1, right? And when they dismember 1...you just drop another one. With glissa you have to hope they don't have Karakas or Dismember, and if they kill her you have to spend resources (and more importantly time, a resource that, as remembered above, is essentially the key of the match up) to bring her back. Against a deck that basically hopes to win asap, it doesn't seem THE optimal strategy.
I'm not saying that "whoever runs Glissa is dumb and needs to die in a fire", so there is no malice in my posts, but even an additional deluge or path from the sb are better against them (and many more decks), IMHO.
@Arian: perfect analysis, as always. I'm testing your version on xMage right now. Like it happened for Miracles, we should call it "Legends Nic-Fit" :P
