[DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)

After playing around with RUG and BURG for awhile, I've actually returned to TA. It actually seems to be performing better than the others right now.

I expect Theros to bring about some changes to the format, but here's what I've been playing as of late:

19 lands (7 fetch, 4/2/2 sea/trop/bayou, 4 waste)
1 Sylvan Library
4 DRS
4 Delver
4 Goyf
2 Stalker
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Daze
4 FoW
4 Spell Pierce
4 Ponder
4 Bstorm
4 Decay

I cut Hymn for Spell Pierce, as it seems somewhat better at dealing with the cards this deck actually loses to. I was able to go down to 19 lands since this means the curve is slightly lower.

Explosives is a great removal option for the time being. I have tested Liliana, Dismember, and Disfigure in that slot, but I found the versatility and occasional 2-for-1 from Explosives to be really great as of late.

For the sideboard, I'm just rolling with a Nassif-style singleton board with the following cards:
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Life from the Loam
1 Winter Orb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Darkblast
1 Disfigure
1 Golgari Charm
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Engineered Plague
1 Compost

wcm8,

Good to see you playing TA. How has tombstalker been for you? I've been running into a ton of white decks locally so that = stp in bunches so I'm debating switching to clique.

I give credit for taking out hymn but IMO that card is the reason we play these color combination.

I've always run 19 lands and I totally think its the way to go.

I really don't understand this move. What is the upside of playing BUG instead of RUG if you cut Hymns for more reactive Countermagic. RUG Delver is simply the stronger Tempodeck in regards of creating tempo. (aka no tap-out-mechanic) I just don't see any reason to play BUG Threshold, your build looks like you are close to adding Stifles, finalizing the idea of an inferior RUG.
Cutting Hymn is totally fine, don't get me wrong - but it should be replaced by something that fits the gameplan of TA --> Thoughtseize or something like this.
In addition to this, EE seems like a totally wrong removal for this kind of deck. You probably don't care about 1-2ing the opponent. You want to tempo them out, kill them before they can build up their shit. So you need cheap/free removal --> Dismember/Snuff Out.

I would like to hear your opinion on this questions, plus I am willing to extend my critique, if need be.

Greetings

I could see Thoughtseize replacing Spell Pierce, as either card is good at dealing with control, combo, and tempo strategies. In particular, I wanted something to help out against combo that didn't require tapping out on turn 2, and even then might not necessarily hit anything relevant. Spell Pierce is nice because it's something you can Brainstorm into in response to a game ending spell, and obviously it deals with topdecks in a way that discard can't. TA also has a dangerously low Blue count to support FoW, so additional blue spells are always welcome. Finally, this also freed up some slots in the sideboard to better address control and aggro.

Explosives has been amazing against Elves and other smaller swarm decks I've been facing lately. It's a bit like RUG's Forked Bolt in this regard, except it is also versatile elsewhere. Also grows Goyf. I'm still waiting for the day that a Black StP variant gets printed; until then we have to make do with less-than-ideal options.

I disagree with you saying that cutting Hymn makes TA a 'worse version of RUG'. We are still playing the full playsets of Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay, as well as Tombstalker which are actually components that help push TA over-the-top against RUG. Additionally, the black sideboard options are arguably just as valid as RUG's red options.

I think people are bit too eager to throw around this concept of 'tempo'. Tempo matters in the first several turns, but I'm sure you're aware that a lot of those concepts often go out the window beyond turns 4-5+, i.e. the majority of games. This is where TA often has more staying power than RUG thanks to hard removal in Abrupt Decay.

The black swords to plowshares variant is ghastly demise
And the best card in the whole 75 of rug delver is pyroblast
I have played rug delver and I have no intention of building it again, because the deck lack one major component. Actual creature removal.

I am no tempo expert, but I tend to playtest against one, and this discusions have shaped my view of this point. Let me try to elaborate.

RUG Delver is the best tempodeck. Yes, tempo is a fishy term and there hasn't really been an explanation that everyone agrees upon. It could be described as mana-advantage, as disability to play cards from hand (creating dead cards) or as the ability to counter every spell that matters until they are dead. Every single of these 3 "explanations" has its flaws in real magic and is therefore incorrect. It most likely is a combination of those 3 + 3 more I did not think of.
So, why do I think that RUG Delver is the best Delverdeck? The deck costs 0 or 1, only Tarmogoyf standing out of this concept. Most of this deck are instants. This means that this deck is capable of passing the turn with just one X-Island and still threaten everything, landdestructio, countermagic, removalspells, cantrips or whatever. But I am sure you know of RUGs strengths. Let's compare this to TA, shall we?
TA on the other hand tends to tap out, turn after turn, utilizing free spells to still keep up the tempo (argh, I did it again). We all know this concept. Why does this make TA a worse tempodeck? Well, probably I shouldn't say worse, I should've said different?! In any way, BUG is not capable of operating on as few lands as RUG is, we our spells tend to cost more and are more socery-orientated. Hence we have the more powerful spells, by their own. Hymn is way more powerful than any of RUGs cards. But, and this is the point I wanna make - it is really hard to play a correct and strong Hymn. RUG on the other hand can just pass with Volcanic and judge which spell they wanna use. When you waste your 1st/2nd Mainphase deploying one of your tapout-threats and then understand that it's been the wrong one - what'cha gonna do? But this is not the only reason.
Canadian Threshold's answers and spells in general are worse, but more flexible and can be used on a wider spectrum, plus they are generally cheaper. Yes, Lightning Bolt is a worse removalspell than Abrupt Decay is, but Lightning Bolt can kill planeswalking monstrosities and finish of unworthy opponents. Decay cannot do that. Yes, Spell Pierce is probably worse against Combo than Hymn is. But a Hymn can whiff or be irrelevant due to the lategame-point of the match, Spell Pierce on the other hand can still handle a T6 drawn Jace or something (assumed he didn't draw a land evey turn). In addition to this it can handle instant-speed removal or the right parts of the combo.
You see where I am getting to? BUG has the better cards, but only situational. It's RUG big strength to operate on as few sources as possible with the best spectrum of differently useable spells. Why does adding Spell Pierce to BUG not solve the problem? Because BUGs CC1-Tempogainer - Shaman is a lightning rod, whereas RUGs is easier castable, instant speed and has broad applications throughout the Legacy metagame. We still have this clunkey Decay and Engineered Explosives is still a wrong/bad card for the Mainboard.

CroSS.24 - It's very hard to take you serious on any of your two statements. I'll care to respond if you put a little more intent and content in your posts, and probably stop claiming obviously wrong stuff --> Just like Pyroblast being RUGs best card - hillarious.


Greetings

On Thoughtseize/Hymn/Pierce:

I've played TA with Thoughtseize in a local GP trial (losing the final) in Straßbourg winning my first trial and then in the GP facing tons of jund/shardles for a 3:3 on day 1. :cry: Not forcing yourself to keep mana open is pretty key imo. You want to deathrite into threats/discard/wasteland with daze open. This is how you win matches. Deathrite into stuff with pierce open might be good, but is more situational that Thoughtseize even though it might be a better tempo play (if it works). If they don't play into it it might hurt your tempo by not using your mana. That it stops topdecks is true, but you cannot pay 2 to stop thoguthseize so I would count that even. My main argument is that thoughtseize is way better at stopping swords, decay and dismember. Pierce is usually useless against removal given a competent opponent.

Why play Hymn over Thoughtseize? I've never understood why everybody did that. I don't care about what you do or how many cards you have if I can only stop you from winning before I do or stop you from stopping my attacking army. What I mean is that specific cards (swords, decay, batterskull, infernal tutor) are much more important than card advantage in general. Also playing multiple spells turn 2 is key and hymn often doesn't allow you to do so. I can see Hymn beeing better with a Sinkhole plan from the side though.

So comparing to candadian you don't win by disrupting the opponents mana very well and taxing while hitting with shroud/delver (which is a plan that also often works in the late game). You have a shorter window of getting ahead and win by accelerating faster into threats (multiple spells) that your opponent can't answer using your disruption SPECIFICALLY on what stops you. Hence Thoughtseize over Hymn 100% for me.

So we agreed upon the fact, that Spell Pierce does not fit TAs gameplan. Great.

Thoughtseize vs Hymn. I do not claim to have the correct answer nor can I offer hundreds of hours playing with this very deck. Even though I am no newcomer to this deck. Well, that's what I think:
Thoughtseize is, as you mentioned, an assured way to get rid of things, things you aimed on and things you care about. It's easier to cast and enables you to play more spells on T2. Thoughtseize is great at taking opposing T1-plays when being on the play and enables you to snap their T2-bomb when being on the draw. It has no real drawbacks concerning the choice of card, only nonland, which is set in stone for targeted Legacydiscard.
Hymn on the other hand is more unstable, costs more mana plus it puts an additional strain on the manabase for producing BB. Interestingly enough, Hymn offers blow-out-scenarios. Hymning 2 lands while Dazing their spell, followed by a Wasteland. Or taking their only buisness spells and leaving them with lands only. But, Hymn can whiff too, creating nothing but (mostly) virtual cardadvantage. It seems to be, that Hymn is a bit of high risk - high reward. Obviously Hymn is great in combinatin with Deathrite Shaman, but which card isn't? There are serveral more scenarios where I would like Hymn over Thoughtseize too, for example if the opponent has a redundant hand, meaning: Land, Land, Creature, Creatue - with all these creatures being probably the same strength. Toughtseize wouldn't be too good here, as it only 1-1s you, while costing Manainvestemt + your Mainphase. Hymn on the other hand can destroy this hand very easily, there is no really bad combination of cards Hymn could pick, as long as the opponent did not deploy serveral lands earlier.
I am still not sure about the fact, which Discardspell is the better one against Combo. Thoughtseize enables very quick interaction. Hymn on the other hand takes awhile but is mostly devastating against all those many-card-combos, be it Storm or Show and Tell. I did not test this intensively yet, but I think I may do that sometime soon.

Greetings

A deck's 'gameplan' tends to only work in the abstract. I'm far more interested in results than I am in some sort of platonic ideal of 'tempo'.

Stifle has a been a card I've never been all that happy with, even when I am playing RUG. And this is coming from someone who earned a Pro Point with 4 copies of the card in my Grand Prix deck, so it's not like I haven't given the card plenty of testing time. Even without Stifle's inclusion, I still feel that Spell Pierce is sufficiently powerful and stops a lot of the problematic cards for TA. Thoughtseize would also be fine in its place -- I would need to do more testing between the two. I could also see a 2/2 split being a justifiable choice.

A big reason I like playing TA is because it beats on RUG pretty hard. RUG is also extremely popular in my local meta right now. Spell Pierce is pretty much a hard counter against every non-creature spell against that deck, and is much easier to actually resolve than Hymn (which would likely be getting sided out anyways). Explosives is also a powerful option for beating mongoose -- Decay and your bigger threats clear up the rest.

And my response is coming/came from someone who earned his Pro Point with 4 Sensei's Divining Top in his deck :D

Engineered Explosives is quite good vs Nimble Mongoose. But here are a few points that have to be considered.
EE is Sorcery Speed. It can be Stifled, it could be Decayed. It does not flip Delver.

If you plan on beating RUG on it's own I don't think that BUG Delver is your deck of choice. As told, I tested against a high-profile RUG-Player (11th at GP Strasbourg) and I can assure you, that this deck does not stump RUG. It has a reasonable MU due to Shaman, own Goyfs and Decay, but playing this deck because you wanna prey on RUG seems just wrong to me. I agree that I wouldn't play Hymn when i were about to prey on RUG, admittingly.

Greetings

Took first at local. Taking down enough store credit to score a NM English moat!

Won against UWr miracles, Punishing Jund, Lost to Death and Taxs, and beat RUG delver. :smile:

Winter Orb is awesome

@Engineered Explosives: Have you tried Diabolic Edict in its place? Also pretty strong against RUG, does flip Delver, helps against SneakShow and in general clears up big guys pretty well. It's bad against Maverick (too many irrelevant small dudes) but in the right meta I feel it could work.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

@Engineered Explosives: Have you tried Diabolic Edict in its place? Also pretty strong against RUG, does flip Delver, helps against SneakShow and in general clears up big guys pretty well. It's bad against Maverick (too many irrelevant small dudes) but in the right meta I feel it could work.

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Even against mav (who's playing it anyway right now?) It can hit early enough to be good.

It IS terrible vs gobs, though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kingsey

Took first at local. Taking down enough store credit to score a NM English moat!

Won against UWr miracles, Punishing Jund, Lost to Death and Taxs, and beat RUG delver. :smile:

Winter Orb is awesome

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What did you bring in Winter Orb against? Miracles, obviously, but anything aside from that?

I also brought it in vs Jund its been good to me.

I keep going back and forth between clique & tombstalker.

It's funny when I run clique I wish it was stalker and vice versa.


I know I'm solo on stifles main deck but between the sfm triggers, plainswalker triggers, grislebrand draw 7, blanking opponents wastelands, and the old fashion fetch lands I love it.

So I played this list last Saturday and did badly:
Land(20):
4x Polluted Delta
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Underground Sea
2x Bayou
2x Tropical Island
4x Wasteland

Creatures(14):
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Delver of Secrets
2x Tombstalker

Instants(22):
4x Brainstorm
4x Stifle
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Abrupt Decay
1x Dismember
1x Disfigure

Sorceries(4):
4x Ponder

Sideboard:
3 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
2 Deathmark
2 Engineered Plague
1 Infest
1 Krosan Grip

It was my first time playing Team America and I am not sure how to play this deck correctly. Is there any introduction available to this deck? The starting post of this thread is quite outdated.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gunseng

So I played this list last Saturday and did badly:
Land(20):
4x Polluted Delta
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Underground Sea
2x Bayou
2x Tropical Island
4x Wasteland

Creatures(14):
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Delver of Secrets
2x Tombstalker

Instants(22):
4x Brainstorm
4x Stifle
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Abrupt Decay
1x Dismember
1x Disfigure

Sorceries(4):
4x Ponder

Sideboard:
3 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
2 Deathmark
2 Engineered Plague
1 Infest
1 Krosan Grip

It was my first time playing Team America and I am not sure how to play this deck correctly. Is there any introduction available to this deck? The starting post of this thread is quite outdated.

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I agree the primer is very outdated. You can check mtgsalvation but i'm unsure what you will find there. One thing I see you are missing is discard. Either Hymn to tourach or toughtseize is absolutely needed main deck. I would cut 1 tropical, the dismember and the disfigure and put 3 hymns in.

Quote:

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It was my first time playing Team America and I am not sure how to play this deck correctly. Is there any introduction available to this deck? The starting post of this thread is quite outdated.

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Can you elaborate on what you faced and what went wrong? How familiar are you with legacy format?

More information would help us to give you better insight. Also while TA is a different animal many of the basic principals of tempo or aggro control cross over from canadian thresh so I would also suggest delving into CT methodology for answers.

Lastly some of the card choices for these decks are 'core' concepts and dont really ever change, while others are more cyclical depending on your metagame. Hence why so many discussion revolve around stifle/pierce/hymn/thoughtseize etc.

OK, I will try to express my problems.

My match ups were Stacks (1:1), Miracle Control (1:2), Esper Blade (1:2) and Nic Fit (0:2). My impression was that TA is on a clock. If you do not manage to deal critical damage to an opponent early on, you will lose to a resolved bomb (e.g. Grave Titan, Jace + Counterbalance/Top, Liliana). I kept trading well with my opponents only to just lose in a later turn when I did not have the necessary answer. I feel that I have to be more aggressive but the deck does not have the power to be really fast. My main problem is that I do not know what hands to hold. I used to play Canadian some years ago and I was taught that you rarely mulligan, because you do not have any card draw. I played TA the same way and therefore held some slow hands with only filtering, counter magic and disruption, but no creatures. Is this the correct way to play? Also, I do not know how to sideboard with this deck.

The idea to add hymn is interesting, I will have to test this. However, I am unsure whether Stifle and Hymn work well together, as Stifle needs open mana and Hymn makes you tap out.

Those are some rough match-ups there. I haven't played against Stax in years, but at least on paper it seems difficult. Chalice on one really hurts our deck's consistency since it turns off the cantrips, Delver, Thoughtseize etc., but at least we have MD outs to it contrary to RUG who will likely just roll over if they don't have a counter. Miracles can be difficult if they get an early countertop lock or if you over-extend into a big Terminus, but the match-up is a lot more managable if you have Winter Orb in the sideboard. The same is more or less true for Esper Blade, but against them the elf becomes more important since otherwise they can just kill all of our dudes with Swords + Snapcaster Mage. Nic Fit is another tough match-up for all fair blue decks, but should also be winnable if you can hinder their mana development. Again, Winter Orb should be a good sideboard card.