So... i cant help but notice someone called wild nacatl subpar... this is a joke right?
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So... i cant help but notice someone called wild nacatl subpar... this is a joke right?
Did you ignore the context? New Horizons wouldn't play Wild Nacatl if it could. Troop wants to make New Horizons in Naya colors without the good cards like Force of Will and Brainstorm.Quote:
Originally Posted by OldOD
Troop is playing 4 one drops that are relevant on turn 1. What's the point of that? Wild Nacatl is good for early pressure. But it is good because it combines with other good one drops like Steppe Lynx, Kird Ape, etc... Having only 4 good one drops makes them pretty useless.
Your posts are spiteful and brief, exactly what the DTB forum tries to avoid. You've had this vendetta against me for a few pages, but I can't help but defend myself. What are you talking about here? How is Noble Hierarch not relevant? Why is Wild Nacatl only good beside Steppe Lynx and Kird Ape? I play 8 1drops, not 4. Explain this further. I find that playing fewer attacking one drops and more exalted guys actually gives my deck MORE focus. Not playing Kird Ape and Steppe Lynx ensures that I won't draw them lategame, which is very good. Again, you're saying something outlandish in only a few sentences, so you've got to back it up with information. Why is playing 4 Wild Nacatl useless in my deck?Quote:
Originally Posted by CorpT
I haven't replied in this thread for a LONG time, so I figured I'd chime in with me being the Zoo-ru and all.
Nacatl is a 3/3 for one. I don't think the word Zoo should even be in the title of the deck unless you're running 4 of these and 4 Bolts.
Big Zoo is interesting to me because I've always been a big fan of the "slower" version of Zoo, but I think it it just slows down too much. I agree with playing super efficient spells and creatures, but the deck just seems like a midrange Naya deck to me. It should have it's own thread. I'm not hating, it's just the truth.
Adding Wasteland to a 3 color deck that is so reliant on colors doesn't seem like the right call. What matchups could it help against that Zoo doesn't already rape? And playing Wasteland means that you'll be losing the land wars to the more dedicated LD/Tempo decks of the format, which are pretty rampant right now. I've ALWAYS wanted lands with this deck, and as good as exalted is, the deck doesn't need more BOPs. It doesn't seem justifiable JUST because you play a poor mana denial strategy and Elspeth. As much I love the Big "Zoo" lists, I think they don't need to be in this thread.
Also this deck can't be innovated. I've argued against most every "innovative" card in the deck, and they never make the cut or the top lists. Hell, 50 pages of this thread is everyone arguing over Aether Vial, you see how well that went. I'm not against innovation, there just isn't any fat left to trim from this deck.
I'm not being spiteful. If you take it that way, well... sorry, but I'm not the one sending PMs calling the other person a troll. I have no vendetta.Quote:
Originally Posted by troopatroop
On topic: We're at an impasse. You consider Noble Hierarch to be a perfectly legit 1 drop in an aggro deck. I don't. I consider aggressive cards, like Kird Ape, Loam Lion, Wild Nacatl and Steppe Lynx to be good, aggressive creatures. You know... creatures that attack for more than 1. I also want more than 4 of those aggro cards in my aggro deck because it means that I will likely draw at least one in my opening hand meaning I will be attacking for 3-5 on turn 2, instead of 1 or not at all.
I really don't know what else to tell you. If you think I haven't tried Noble and Wasteland, you're wrong. I tried them and they didn't work out against the common MUs. I don't know what you're playing them against that they're working, but they are certainly not working for me. You've basically dismissed everything I've said and explained that Wastelands are good because the kill non-basics without listing a single specific deck you want it against despite me asking for that at least twice. Your logic is: "Wasteland is godlike". I want more specific examples of what decks Wasteland is good against (and thanks, I can read, I know it's good against non-basics) and what situations against those decks you want it (more specific than "all the time, it's godlike".) You won't answer that, so I really don't see the point in continuing this conversation.
Noble Hierarch works because the threats it accelerates into are so game breaking. Knight of the Reliquary and Elspeth are both massive. I wouldn't play Elspeth without Noble Hierarch, because it costs 4 mana. That is far too much for an aggro deck. It becomes hard to lose the game with an Elspeth in play, so the earlier it happens, the easier it will be to stabalize with it and win the game. Noble Hierarch helps with this, and coupled with Wasteland putting them back, you can get way ahead. You want matchups where you really need Wasteland? Okay here's a few.
Combo, Stax, Landstill of all kinds, CAB Jace, 43 Land, Zoo, Counter-top, Tempo Thresh, and Team America.
Noble Hierarch is also amazing against other tempo decks that want to deny you mana, which form a significant portion of the metagame. It is my opinion that Noble Hierarch is more significant that Kird Ape or Loam Lion. I almost never attack with it, so referencing that it only swings for one is pretty laughable. You've really dug your heels in with this one, so lets just agree to disagree. Quick Zoo lists really want to win the game early, and if they fail at that they do their best to finish the game. Big Zoo lists have alot of the early game pressure to get ahead, but are designed to have the edge in the mid-late game. This is why I think Terravore deserves to be tested, and why Noble Hierarch and Wasteland strengthen that strategy.
You don't have enough power to capitalize on any of these decks except Team America and Tempo Thresh.Quote:
Originally Posted by troopatroop
Combo still combos you because your deck is too slow. Stax prolly has under a lock at that point, or loses to itself. Landstill plays 24 lands with Brainstorms and Standstills. Zoo seems relevant, but ONLY if you have Hierarch or a land heavy draw and they aren't getting that lucky. Countertop has many ways to keep making land drops.
Using Wasteland against these decks doesn't seem too great when you don't have too fast of a deck. It ONLY seems good with Hierarch.
This is what I've been trying to say for several pages. It is routinely ignored and dismissed because Wasteland is godlike.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch
So can we agree to put this baby to bed, at least until someone brings it up next page?
I don't have enough power? This is such garbage, I share the entire core of the deck! Zoo's creatures aren't powerful? Pridemage, Tarmogoyf, Nacatl, Knight of the Reliquary, Terravore, and Elspeth is alot of power. All those cards come out quickly, and hit for damage. In my TESTING against Landstill, Combo, Stax, and CAB Jace, one Wasteland was always something to capitalize on. The deck is only a hair slower.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch
This is so ridiculous, I'm not even going to comment again.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...es-August-21st
You want evidence of Wastelands quality? Read it.
Okay so your deck was good to you during a tournament??? I'm not flaming or hating, I'm just putting forth what I think about the deck. You don't need to get so mad brah. If the deck does well for you then play it, but for others who want more consistency they'll stick with regular Zoo ya know? Idk even know why this is being discussed here because it's Naya Midrange and not Zoo.Quote:
Originally Posted by troopatroop
Wow, I haven't been on here for about a month and when I perused this thread now I am quite shocked and appalled that people are putting Terravore, Wasteland and especially Noble Hierarch into classic zoo decks.
Please don't get me wrong, I am all for innovation and there are always a few slots in Zoo that are open for debate. However, that being said, what people are doing to this deck is manifestly changing the deck to something new and completely different. This deck being called "big zoo" is changing the aggressive strategy and the entire core of the classic fast Zoo deck and is palpably shaking the very foundation on what this deck is built around; cheap, aggressive, fast and efficient 1-2 drop cards (with some very limited 3cc cards like 2-3 KOTR).
I will even go as far as saying that this so called "big zoo" deck may even be viable and decent to play, a fact that is not admitted and is specifically denied because I have seen it have any success at any major legacy event, and I have not play tested it myself. Therefore, I reserve any further comment on if this deck can be tier one or even as good as traditional Zoo. The point is, this deck "big zoo" being advanced should be on a different thread because there are just too many abrupt, impulsive and erratic changes being made and the voluminous amount of changes are impeding a traditional and fast/ aggressive modern style Zoo deck which I do believe this particular forum represents?
Now, onto why I came on here today in the first place. Vengevine/Survival/ Madness is a pretty bad match up for Zoo, unfortunately . It is not like you can play extirpate or parish (nor would you want to) like other decks are doing and all of the staple Zoo sideboard options seem quite weak and futile against Vengevine. I have carefully and thoroughly perused all the sideboards for all the top Zoo decks from the last two Grand Prix Legacy events and none offer good or viable options. I have further looked over several of the sideboards that have been posted on here and dido. Given that 7 of the 32 decks at my last legacy event ran Vengevine/ Madness it is pretty annoying to have two 4/3’s swinging at you on turn two fairly consistently. Just curious to see if U/G Madness is popular in other metagames, and if so, what people playing Zoo (by this I mean traditional zoo) are boarding in?
I think you're right, I'm gonna make a new thread tomorrow. I just went 9-1 in preboard testing against a traditional U/r Dreadstill list with the Naya Horizons build, which is pretty insane considering I have 8 burn spells that all suck. Still there was just nothing he could do, all my threats are way too good. Noble Hierarch was insane, as was Wasteland. :D
Tormod's Crypt and Pithing Needle are probably the best cards you can play against Vengevine. Perhaps some Ethersworn Cannonist to also help against Combo decks, I don't really know. Krosan Grip and Pithing Needle seem really strong currently, with Survival being amazing and all.
I've had some luck bringing in minimal hate for the graveyard and Survival, but brining in a few Swords to Plowshares to complement Path to Exile. If you can prevent them from overrunning you with Vengevine, then your creatures easily outclass theirs.Quote:
Originally Posted by troopatroop
I'll put in Wheel of Sun and Moon. I'm trying out an Enlightened Tutor package in the sideboard but no proper data results yet since Im not playing much Legacy atm. A more reactive solution would be Faerie Macabre. My personal favourite GY removal is still Relic of Progenitus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demonic_Attorney
Dear Sirs,
Please test and share your conclusions rather than flaming.
@ Troopatropp, please go stomp the next big event and post a tournament report, I have all the confidence that you can get there with that list (sans the Terravores, I agree with everything else).
Both lists have their pros and cons. I did a pretty fair comparison back a few pages from my own testing:
Big zoo: Better vs anything with dudes (new horizons, bant aggro, countertop, zoo mirror, the rock, anything mid range)
Traditional zoo: Better vs anything without dudes (storm combo, reanimator, any fast combo, jacestill, lands)
Folk, gobbos and other tribal are still good MUs as 11/12 removal spells + lavamancers still get played in big zoo. Please test the above MUs and you will realise that its a pretty good idea to play big zoo, if your meta has plenty of dude-filled lists.
Wheel of Sun and Moon allows the Madness player to get infinite Rootwallas. You can still win through that, but I certainly wouldn't take out anything good for it, and would only resort to it if you have a lot of dead cards with nothing else to bring in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nelis
This is my opinnion about the sideboard:
3x volcanic fallout (good against gobblins & merfolk, I lost 2 times from gobblins last tournament in mol, they just kept me off my land :(
3x REB/pyroblast (good against anything with blue ofc)
2x relic of progenitus/crypt, I would go crypt because it's faster
2x (forgot the name), discard: remove 2 cards in a graveyard
2x gaddock teeg (probably I would go main with them)
3x mindbreak trap (combo)
Why si much graveyard hate, well, the vengevine decks are quite popular atm and also anything that plays loam.
Also threshold, lands, ...
That's my idea, let me know what you think.
Also, those vengevine decks aren't a really bad matchup if you can raise a littlebit and use your PTE's against their vengevines.
But would you guys kill turn 1 noble?
I play this SB:
3 Krosan Grip (counterbalance/survival/enchantress/equipment)
3 Choke (I prefer this over blasts because they screw blue over, blast is just nice to have, choke is an absolute bomb + you dont want to keep your mana open for REB, you want to be dropping dudes)
2 Relic
1 Crypt
3 Teeq
3 Mindbreak trap
I don't get why people are so concerned about killing venges when you should be concerned about killing survival. Without survivail, 1 recurring venge is pretty harmless, Path solves that. Your Kotrs and goyfs are bigger too, so whats the issue?
Choke v REB:
Choke hits Blue Control decks. That's really about it. It doesn't stop SnT, Merfolk, etc...
REB hits Blue Control decks, SnT, Merfolk, Breakthrough, etc...
REB is a much more versatile card compared to Choke. Choke definitely hits the blue control decks harder than REB, but it is a fairly narrow card. I would rather play something a little more flexible.