[Deck] Dredge

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Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

We don't really know the exact MUs but Nic Fit is probably the worst matchup ever. I don't see myself ever having trouble beating zoo tho. Or current Maverick lists. The combo matchup is about even if you play with LEDs. RUG Delver isn't a deck over here, so I don't know.

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So true... Nic Fit is stupidly hard to win. It's almost an auto-scoop, lol. Especially if they have Leyline of the Void in sideboard.

Combo is hard, but better with LED. And Spiral Tide is ridiculous. They can combo turn 3 the earliest (or turn 2 if they have a set of Candelabra of Tawnos + Godhand, very likely to happen, beware). If you haven't therapied them by turn 3~4, just go home and burn your deck.

RUG Delver is really soft on Dredge. Just aim Cabal Therapy into permission to make your draw spells safe, and win. Firestorm is gold in this matchup.

In my testing (before Zoo drop in popularity), with LEDless Dredge, Zoo was 60-40% for Dredge. Tireless Tribe is ridiculous. But they have a good clock and are impressively consistent. Path to Exile can be a pain in the ass, but everything else is fair.

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Originally Posted by Izor

ANT/TES/PIF: Hven't been able to test the LED-Lootings list a lot against it, but even without those it's about 40/60 to 50/50. Hard to say, really, because everything that really counts are the coin flip and mulligans. It should be slightly in their favor I guess, although my personal record is positive. MD Iona helps here (one of the few matchups).

Spiral Tide: Slower than ANT, but has a few counters. All in all it should be slightly in our favor. Maindecked Iona should increase your win-% by aout 5% alone. Therapying against them is pretty easy and always effective.

RUG Delver: You have to practise this matchup a lot. Basically you just don't blindly run into their permission (rather try to render it useless) and win. Post board Extractiond plus Snapcaster can ruin your day and the matchup swings in their favor. Pre board (if you play well) 70-30 in your favor and post board about 60-40 for them.

Zoo: Actually one of our best matchups, I really don't know what your friend thinks. They can shoot their creatures, true, but after all they can't really interact and have neither Wasteland or counter spells. Exactly the kind of deck we just steamroll. Pre board about 80 in our favor I daresay. Post board depends, but as they usually don't have too much hate and no counters to protect it it should be still in your favor.



And everyone: play Careful Study. No matter in what build. It will increase all win% by a lot.

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well it's not a friend, it was on another forum. In my experience it goes pretty much like you say it, only that spiral tide can hide cards with brainstorm and discard didn't prove very effective against them but that could be because it was the first time i played against that deck and it was the first time i piloted dredge so...
i'm going to test th ematchup extensively the following weks since one of my friend plays spiral tide, ANT , TES etc... and he's a very experienced combo player.

and about the careful study, i can only confirm this, even with lootings i play 2 careful study and i really want to fit in a 3d but i don't know what to remove

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Originally Posted by AEnesidem

well it's not a friend, it was on another forum. In my experience it goes pretty much like you say it, only that spiral tide can hide cards with brainstorm and discard didn't prove very effective against them but that could be because it was the first time i played against that deck and it was the first time i piloted dredge so...
i'm going to test th ematchup extensively the following weks since one of my friend plays spiral tide, ANT , TES etc... and he's a very experienced combo player.

and about the careful study, i can only confirm this, even with lootings i play 2 careful study and i really want to fit in a 3d but i don't know what to remove

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Hint: Shortcut your Therapy if you got multiples. Just flashback it, snap naming Brainstorm ( using the shortcut "if you don't respond, I'm naming Brainstorm"). If they react, you can chose another target.

In a seventeen-person tourney yesterday:

Played against SnT/Eureka and won an improbable game (and round). I only have one land out - a Cephalid Coliseum - and nothing else, with a grip of six cards. My opponent plays Eureka and drops Emrakul and Elesh Norn. I drop two Narcomoebas, a Golgari-Grave Troll, and an Angel of Despair into play. Eureka resolves and state-based actions have killed my Narcomoebas. My Troll is now a 4/4 (counting Norn), and Angel destroys Emrakul. I proceed to swing in the air for three each turn, while chumping with Troll on defense and regenerating it with the Coliseum for two turns, taking only one damage instead of four each turn. Finally, I am at nine, they're at three. The turn prior, they played an E.S.G. They swing in for eight, putting me down to *one* life. I crack-back and win it in the air.

Sunday tournament in Iserlohn, Germany. A divine comedy in 3 acts.

Act 1: Hell

I wake up, the sun is shining, and it looks just like another wonderfull day. Unfortunately it was just a dream, because it's 8'o clock in the morning and we have freaking 10.4°F, so it's kinda hard to get moving, but my inner demons (read: playing a card game with other nerds) drive me out of my bed and into the car.

The Deck:
[BHC] Dawn of the Dead
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Colliuseum
1 Tarnish Citadell

4 Putrid Imp
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba

4 Bridge from Below

4 Lions Eyed Diamond

4 Breakthrough
4 Faithless Looting
3 Carefull Study
4 Cabal Therapy

Side:
3 Ancinet Grudge
1 Ingot Chewer
4 Natures Claim
4 LEyline of the Void
2 Coffin Purge
1 Tarnish Citadell

72 people showed up to battle for fame, glory and neat price support in 7 rounds of legacy.

Round One:

Enchantress

Out of 72 players there was only one guy playing Enchantress, oh boy this starts good....

G1.: He wins the roll and leads with Forest and Utopia Sprawl, while I mulligan to 6 and start with a Putrid Imp. On his second Turn he goes for another Forest, Argothian Enchantress, go. I dredge a Troll, cast Breakthrough and find everything, well everything except Therapys, as I only find one of them. I cast Therapy, naming Enchantress Presence and he reveals: Presence, Argothian, 2x Elephant Grass, Savanah.... yeah G2.

Side: While sideboarding I blame myself for cutting the Ray of Revelation in the last minute for an Ingot Chewer.
In: +4 Claim
out: -1 Thug - 1 Ichorid - 2 Study

G2.: I lead with a mulligan to 5, into a land with City, Looting, Colliseum, Claim and Breakthrough. So I just had to find a dredger and the party could start. Little did I know that he would start the game with a Leyline of Sanctity, plus Ground Seal, Moat and Wheel of Sun and Moon in his hand. Who needs an engine if you have all the hate your deck has to offer.

So I start with a 0-2 lose, but who prepares for Enchantress anyway.

On a plus side I got to scout the meta a bit and it was quite the stuff we had expected: a lot Maverick, a good amount of UR Delver, Dredge, Combo, Thresh, some Nic Fits and your usual T3 decks. Oh and 2 guys piloting MUD.

Round 2:

MUD

Oh God what sin did I commit to deserve this ?

Game 1: Actually I forgot anything about this one, but I know that I threw it away.

Side:
In: +3 Grudge +1 Chewer
out: -1 Thug -1 Ichorid -2 Study

Game 2: I mulligan to 5 and keep the nuts: Breakthrough, City, LED, Troll , Bridge. Fuck yes. After turning most of my deck upside down I pick his hand apart with Therapys and we are off to game 3.

Side: +4 Claim +1 Citadell +1 Study
Out: -4 LED - 1 Looting -1 Thug

Game 3: He keeps his oppening 7 while I go down to 5 yet again ( this is a typo you will see alot in my report). He leads with Tomb, Chalice 1 and Crypt, while I look at my hand containig City, Mine, Imp, Study, Troll and start to cry inside. Ofc I don't find hate and he overwhelms me with a Wurmcoil Engine.


Act 2: Purification

Round 3:

ANT

G1.: I keep my oppening 7 ( a rare situation for me, so I had to celebrate a bit).
However my hand didn't contain a single dredger. Yet I was very confident, as I had both Looting, Study, Breakthrough and LED, as well as 2 Citys and an Ichorid. So I start with City, Study, drawing another Study and Moeba, discarding both Moeba and Looting. He leads with Usea and Ponder. I draw a Cephalid Colliuseum, play my 2nd Study, drawing a 2nd Colliuseum and Ichorid, discarding Ichorid and City.
On his turn he just plays another USea and a Preordain.
I draw a Bridge, play LED,play Colliuseum no2, play Breakthrough, don't find a dredger, crack Colliuseum and finaly, on the 3rd card I find a Troll. Crack LED, flashback Looting, hit 2 Moebas, Therapy and a shitload of dredge (all being stacked in a big pile). My Therapy misses, however the hand he reveals ( Cabal Ritual, PiF, Infernal, Probe, Land) can't kill me on his turn, so I got another turn, where I can crack my 2nd Colliuseum and overwhelm him with Therapys, Ichorids and token.

I couldn't believe that I had actually managed to win this one.

Side: None

G2: I'm on the draw and keep a hand with Colliuseum, Troll, Imp, 2 LED, City and Ichorid. As the 8th card I draw a Bridge, so I simply go for Colliuseum, LED, LED, crack on for blue, one for red, crack Colliuseum, flashback Looting and Therapy away his only chance of surviving.

Yeah that looked more like the way the deck should perform.

Round 4:

Punishing Maverick

Finaly no more random T3 decks, but unfortunatly I have to play against a good friend on mine and it allways sucks to knock each other out, as you are out of reach for the prices with x-3.

G1.:
He wins the roll and once again I keep a strong hand, yet without a dredger. I'm still convinced that it was the right call, as I just had to draw a dredger, or find a dredger via Study/Looting in order to go off with LED support.
I guess you can guess what happens: I don't find a dredger, he has a 2nd turn knight and a 3rd turn Jitte so yeah, im in a bad spot once more.

Side:
In: +2 Ancient Grudge
Out: -1 Thug -1 Ichorid

G2.: I lead with City, Study, resp crack LED for red, and proceed to overwhelm him. My unholy army takes the win a couple of turns later.

G3:

He leads with a Noble Hierach, while I had to mulligan to 6 and lead with City, Imp. On his 2nd turn he plays an Ooze and passes, leaving a green mana open. I discard a Troll in my upkeep and he eats him, so I just drop another Troll and start dredging. In my mainphase I play LED, cast Breakthrough ( resp crack LED for red) and turn a good chunk of my deck upside down. However I lack one thing: sac outlets.
Yeah I din't found a single Therapy, sad panda face. My buddy joked about it, as we had discussed the 2 flex slots in the deck ( 4th Ichorid or 1 DR / 4Th Study or 1 Citadell) during the drive to the tournament.
Yeah in this case I'd rather had a DR than an Ichorid, meh.

He simply plays Punishing Fire on his Noble, removes my Bridges and eats two of my Ichorids- I can't recover anymore as I don't have any token.

1-3 and I'm out of the contest for price support. But I took the chance to play the remaining rounds in order to test the build a bit more.


Act 3: Paradise

Round 4:

LED Dredge

G1.: Finaly I got to play the mirror once. He leads with the allmost classic LED, City, Breakthrough, Looting, DR FKZ start. However he maneged it to play every drawspell wrong, constantly ignoring his graveyard order or any given trigger.
If there is one thing I hate then it's a dredge player who fails to play his own deck correct.

Side.: ( I watched him boarding during a previous round so I knew that he didn't had Leyline)
In: +4 Leline + 2 Purge
Out: -3 Study -1 Ichorid -2 Thug

G2.: I drop a Leyline of the Void and he scoopes in a blink of an eye.

Side.:
In: +1 Citadell +3 Study +1 Thug
Out: -4 LED -1 Looting

G3.: He mulligans to 6 and I start, once again, with Leyline. He doesn't find his answer in time and I kill him on turn 3 after a Breakthrough.

After the game I take a look and his deck: He played 2 Breakthrough, 0 Study, 4 Looting, 3 Deep Analysis, 3 DR, 2 targets and a bunch of other weird shit.

Round 6:

TES

G1.: He wins the roll and starts with City, Ponder, while I lead with Gemstoen Mine, Study, discarding Troll and Imp. He draws, ponders for some time and then plays a Gemstoen Mine and passes. I dredge a Troll, play a 2nd land, cast Looting and Breakthrough, throw a bunch of Therapys on his head and we are off to G2.

Side: none

G2.: He leads with an USea and Ponder, while I had to mulligan to 6 and start with Citadell and Looting, discarding Imp and Bridge. He plays a City, ponders for a second and plays Infernal, revealing a Rite of Flame. I simply dredge my Imp, crack my Colliuseum and find a couple of Moebas as well as two Therapys, taking away Rites and AdN. He scoops it up.

Round 7:

Somehow the rest of my crew wanted to drop, so I had to join them, allthough I had loved to play the last round.

Overall I'm happy with the result. I basicly played 3-1 against the major decks and the lose where due to my deck refusing to win.
However I'm still a bit pissed that I had to play against Enchantress ( think he went 2-x) and MUD (3-3 at the time we left).

On wensday I'm gonna test the 1 DR in the slot of the 4th Ichorid.

So long

cheers

Felidae_

Thanks for the nice report. It was very good to read.

Yeah, you really got pretty unlucky with the matchups. Two storm combo (although you won both), Enchantress and Mud. Whatchagonnado.

Though, I can't say that I don't feel somewhat confirmed in that I had always said that people should cut the 4th Ichorid for a Dread Return main and play a second copy plus maybe a toolbox side board. I feel that one doesn't really need 2 Grudges plus Chewers plus a set of Claims. Some DR shenanigans could've won you one or two more rounds it seems.

Other than that I like your list. I prefer Paradise over Tarnished and I would also play a 14th Land, but other than that our lists are the same. Good to see that the deck has potential.


EDIT: What about Firestorm in the sideboard? I'd play it over a sub-par card like Leyline all the time, especially as long as Mav's are so strong. Was it a meta choice against all the LED Dredge testers?

Has anyone tried adding greater gargadon like they did in the old lists? i think i may try this out.

I don't understand how you kept hands without dredgers..

Regardless of how bonkers your hands looked and easy it would be to "Go Off" should you draw a dredger, it seems like too many things can go wrong.

The point of the deck is to dredge and you seemingly threw away games for the chance of being really explosive. This deck has a propensity to mulligan already and I think one important aspect of playing the deck is knowing when to throw hands back. You have to realistically see how the next few draws are going to play out. If they had any form of disruption, it would make your hands seemingly worse.

Of course I wasn't there so maybe you had additional information we were not privy to.

Against the ANT guy it was the right call I think ( as it was G1 and I really had a shitload of draw spells plus LED to act as a discard outlet).

Against Maverick I just had confidence in my topdeck skills, however a mulligan would have been better, can't decline this :S.

On a second glace... no you are absolutly right. Guess I really deserved some of those loses yesterday.

Yeah, sometimes it's just hard to mull a perfect hand, but without Dredgers, especially if you have a few draw effects.

Lately I was otP vs Storm and my 7 was City, CC, 2 Study, 3 blanks. I decided to mull and ended up mulling to 4 and keeping a hand w/o Lands. Sometimes you better keep the Dredger-less hands.

I was in Iserlohn too, but i won't write a report, because i went 4-3 instead of 6-1 i wanted. ( like HokusSchmokus )
We both played 4-3 and won/lost in the exact same rounds ( never played against him )

So this is my record.
1:2 Affinity
2:1 Spiral Tide
2:1 Punishing Maverick
2:0 Canadian *****
2:0 Painter
0:2 T.E.S.
1:2 Painter

Funny to see, that Affinity was the only one match, i lost to double cage.

i played the following list:

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Putrid imp
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Bridge from Below
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Dread Return
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

4 Nature's Claim
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Sadistic Hypnotist
1 Dread Return
2 Coffin Purge
1 Purify the Grave

I could shot myself for this shit i played. I will defenetly cut FKZ AND dread return. I never used it except of the Spiral Tide matchup for Iona.

It was a nice beginning with 4-1 ( like Hokus )

I don't know if Hokus will write a report, one thing i can say : except of DR and FKZ we played the same list.

I think i have to brainstorming a bit and test some things.

Btw, i finished 4-0 in a local tournament 1 day before i went to Iserlohn and played without DR + FKZ and it worked nice.

Btw², there were 2 Painters at all in Iserlohn...

K1w1

@Hockus, Felidae, Kiwi
(and every tourney player else =P)

How was Coffin Purge for you?

Hokus played only purify the grave but except of iona it can do the same as coffin purge and in my games it was legen... wait for it....daaaaary
i won 2 games due to purge/purify and my opponents were crying :laugh:
they forgot, that i have it in my hand/grave.

For example the game against punishing maverick.. i had no bridges because they were extracted and he was at 8 life. I had purify in my grave and 3 moeba in play and 2 ichorids in my grave. He extracted Ichorid and i removed one and he was at 6 life without a blocker. :-D

K1w1

I can only give my experience with LEDless Dredge on Coffin Purge, as I didn't used them in Iserlohn:

Its a great card to fight Snapcaster Mage and/ or Extraction, as well as a neat trick against Reanimator or the mirror ( while actually the value in the mirror depends whether or not your opponent plays DR targets or is forced to play DDD, in which case you are allready in a good spot).

@Kiwi:
Good to see that I finaly can combine a face with your nickname here :D. Did Chris forced you to come to our monthly Legacy Tourney?

I played 4-3 like K1w1 said.
The record doesn't really represent the deck's performance.
I won every g1 of the tournament. The main deck is solid, without any DR:

My board was:
4 Nature's Claim
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Ingot Chewer
2 Purify the Grave
2 Tarnished Citadel

Next I'll try with +1 Purify, -3 Ingot Chewer, +2 Ancient Grudge.
My losses came from Painter, UB Control(close one, went to time, also got Ravenous Trapped three times that round)and Maverick with Tutor into Wheel into Ooze.

Interesting facts: I had 7 Mulligans total.
I killed my opponent befor he could untap on turn 3 9 times.
I didn't even see a deck with cage in the whole room.

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Good to see that I finaly can combine a face with your nickname here :D. Did Chris forced you to come to our monthly Legacy Tourney?

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Yes? You can? I'm not sure if you are the one i asked instantly how you played with dredge. ( Standing outdoor ) Otherwise you have to give me a hint who you are :laugh:

Yes Chris asked me and i'm not sure because the 19th is carnival for me, so i have to decide wether to go there or to the tourney.

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I can only give my experience with LEDless Dredge on Coffin Purge, as I didn't used them in Iserlohn:

Its a great card to fight Snapcaster Mage and/ or Extraction, as well as a neat trick against Reanimator or the mirror ( while actually the value in the mirror depends whether or not your opponent plays DR targets or is forced to play DDD, in which case you are allready in a good spot).

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True story. I think with LED you will never break it for flashback purge/purify, because you will break it for red and sometimes for blue. But this isn't a really problem because you should have one land in play to use purge/purify.

K1w1

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Originally Posted by K1w1

Yes? You can? I'm not sure if you are the one i asked instantly how you played with dredge. ( Standing outdoor ) Otherwise you have to give me a hint who you are :laugh:

Yes Chris asked me and i'm not sure because the 19th is carnival for me, so i have to decide wether to go there or to the tourney.



True story. I think with LED you will never break it for flashback purge/purify, because you will break it for red and sometimes for blue. But this isn't a really problem because you should have one land in play to use purge/purify.

K1w1

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Actually I broke LED for white in all of my sideboard games against Reanimator, won me 3 of the 4 sideboard games.

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Actually I broke LED for white in all of my sideboard games against Reanimator, won me 3 of the 4 sideboard games.

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Never faced reanimator :wink:
And i think to break LED for this is not the plan you wanna do. Because if you have LED you always try to break it after a study or looting and to flip your deck. ( If you start )
Otherwise if reanimator starts it could be a mistake, sure. ( entomb/elesh )

K1w1

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Yes? You can? I'm not sure if you are the one i asked instantly how you played with dredge. ( Standing outdoor )

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Yeah that was me :D.

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Yes Chris asked me and i'm not sure because the 19th is carnival for me, so i have to decide wether to go there or to the tourney.

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Follow your inner nerd and celebrate on monday ;).



I think it depends on various factors when it comes to crack your LED for red/blue
( obvious Looting / Coliseum) or black / white ( Purge / Purify):
1. Do they allready have targets in their grave ?
2. How many cards do they have in their hand and how many cards are we going to draw ( i.e. did we played a Breakthrough, cracked Coliseum or just Study / Looting )?
3. How many Therapys are still in our deck ?
4. Do we play any DR / dr targets that can win in an instant ?
5. Are we on the draw or on the play ?

Glad to hear those new LED Dredge hotness.

I've got only 2 LED, because I sold my set a while ago to an ANT player, and could never recover them (I'm not really the richest guy in the world to buy from internet). And everyone is keeping their set of LEDs. Can't find the other two.

So, I tweaked my LEDless list, to a post-DKA one:

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Tarnished Citadel

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
1 Darkblast

4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid

4 Putrid Imp
3 Firestorm

4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
3 Faithless Looting

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below

SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 3 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Purify the Grave
SB: 1 Coffin Purge
SB: 1 Chain of Vapor

I could go -1 Ichorid +1 DR anytime, and +1 Ichorid -1 Chain of Vapor in sideboard.
Any comments, suggestions?