[Deck] The Rock

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Originally Posted by sdematt

I've never felt like I needed Stronghold. Most of the time, my stuff is getting RFG'd, and only in counter-heavy games would Stronghold be necessary. It could easily be a sideboard slot against Control, for sure.

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I mean, you're not giving up a ton of deck space to play it as a 1-of, and it can win the game on it's own in certain matchups, and is tutorable. Sure, people play RFG effects, but you can't convince me that none of your creatures are going to the graveyard.

And for Scavenging Ooze...Whatever. I mean, It's not like stronghold is useless just because some people happen to play ooze and happen to get it sometimes. And hey, if somebody has to Zenith for it, well then you've forced them to Zenith for a specific target, which is good by reducing their options.

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Originally Posted by lavafrogg

With an active knight, I always love fetching my stronghold to recur any blockers or pridemages I have in the yard every turn, It really helps is creature based match-ups any any time where a pridemage every other turn(depending on mana) would be needed (equipment, tier 3 decks).

Damion- where have you been?

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I'm still here, reading.

I don't have much to say on the subject of Stronghold other than I don't feel like cutting a Wasteland or Maze right now so it's not hitting my 75. Both lands are pulling their weight more than I feel a stronghold would do. I'd rather have Elspeth or Garruk (currently testing both) to produce creatures than stunt my draw with stronghold (No Wall of Blossoms or Eternal Witness in my 75).

Honestly, I've been thinking of Sigarda or Garruk Relentless as the control solution. Sigarda's very strong vs a lot of the format (Hexproof, Evasive, and 5/5) and backed with a karakas she should be invincible. Garruck produces an endless stream of beaters which is difficult for control to deal with.

On the Stongeforge 'should be cut'/'is bad' and everyone should use Goyf topic - I've said my piece a while back (Here). If someone says something relevant or produces an arguement, that I feel is valid (and not repetitive), I'll jump back into that hornet's nest. :smile:

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Originally Posted by damionblackgear

I'm still here, reading.

I don't have much to say on the subject of Stronghold other than I don't feel like cutting a Wasteland or Maze right now so it's not hitting my 75. Both lands are pulling their weight more than I feel a stronghold would do. I'd rather have Elspeth or Garruk (currently testing both) to produce creatures than stunt my draw with stronghold (No Wall of Blossoms or Eternal Witness in my 75).

Honestly, I've been thinking of Sigarda or Garruk Relentless as the control solution. Sigarda's very strong vs a lot of the format (Hexproof, Evasive, and 5/5) and backed with a karakas she should be invincible. Garruck produces an endless stream of beaters which is difficult for control to deal with.

On the Stongeforge 'should be cut'/'is bad' and everyone should use Goyf topic - I've said my piece a while back (Here). If someone says something relevant or produces an arguement, that I feel is valid (and not repetitive), I'll jump back into that hornet's nest. :smile:

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On the goyf thing, I think everyone just agreed to disagree. I still stand by Stoneforge as the solution to creature decks. However, I am testing upping my Goyf count, and I'll share my results once I have results.

As far as an endless stream of beaters, I think Elspeth, Knight Errant is a much better choice. She wins the game, whereas Garruk just slows it down. Yes, double white is a pain in the ass, but the clock and inevitability she provides is through the roof.

As far as the control MUs go, Sigarda doesn't really solve our problem. She's only one critter that fails to dominate the board, and due to her high casting cost, she doesn't provide a clock (including the time to play her). If you're playing Stoneforge, Lingering Souls is a BLOWOUT against control. Also, Hymn is so much fun to cast against control. You can see on their faces how hopes and dreams crumbling to dust :)

I beg to differ at Garruk.

a) Producing endless 2/2's is better than 1/1 Soldiers, just comparing that.

b) Mana cost is easier to get. 3G is way better than 2WW

c) Less chance of it actually getting Legend-ruled (not super relevant, but somewhat)

d) 1/1 Deathtouch Wolves change combat math completely. At some point, you have some Deathtouch Wolves stay back, and some continuously attack. They literally cannot block them, so you're actually sitting there attacking whatever you need to.

e) Elspeth does, however, work up to something while getting in there with flying and +3/+3. I think with Equipment, this evasion could be better than Garruk.

f) With Ulvenwald Tracker, Wolves take down Knights.

g) You can easily use Garruk's Overrun with few creatures in the yard, since all you really care about is the Trample. Your Knight will be huge anyway.

h) Tutoring for a creature by saccing a token is great. Searching for Ooze, Tracker, Goyf, Qasali essentially means you have another Survival/GSZ.

Those are my thoughts. I've added a 1-of Garruk and have never looked back. Now that I've added Tracker, he's just THAT much nuttier.

-Matt

As you had mentioned Sigarda's cost, 5 is not that much vs a control deck (Especially seeing is you will have time). It also, due to hexproof, is immune to most removal available (including Jace and Swords). They will have to counter her going down (in which case he higher casting cost should have allowed you to bait counters from them already) or wipe the board. I believe it was you who mentioned 8 Swords being the issue against those decks...

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Originally Posted by Mirrislegend

...Snapcaster Mage is a BEATING. They effectively run 8 StP. I got nailed to the wall...

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Mind you, against any variant of UW, you will be able to protect her via Karakas. Provided, you protect it.

Hm, I was under the impression Sigarda didn't have protection. This is super interesting now. This is a a better Thrun, in a sense.

-Matt

Agreed. Still, the mana price seems a little steep. Seems like Sigarda, Thrun, and Troll Ascetic are all very worth testing

Holy crap Sigarda flies. Maybe the price tag IS worth it!

Hey guys! Today is holiday in my country, so I attended to a tournament at the local shop I use to go.

Ran the list:

2 inquisition of kozilek
3 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
3 maelstrom pulse
4 swords to plowshares
3 mox diamond
2 sensei's divining top
1 sylvan lybrary
3 dark confidant
4 tarmogoyf
4 knight of the reliquary
2 liliana of the veil
1 elspeth, knight errand

lands (24)

4 verdant catacombs
4 marsh flats
3 scrubland
2 bayou
1 forest
1 plains
1 swamp
4 wasteland
1 maze of ith
1 horizon canopy
1 karakas
1 bojuka bog

Side:
2 enlightened tutor
2 pernicious deed
1 engineered plague
1 infest
1 nihil spellbomb
1 conversion
1 extirpate
1 surgical extraction
1 thrun, the last troll
2 life from the loam
1 duress
1 inquisition of kozilek

went 3-0-1 and won the tournament.

A brief report:
Round 1: BW no friends (smallpox, sinkhole, braids, etc)
g1: I mull to 5 searching for lands, and keep with a karakas. Got wastelanded, sinkholed, he cast a crucible, I concede since he had his board assembled.
g2: I'm on the play, begin with discard, goyf, liliana. He gets braids on the field, but I had already a karakas, so it never did harm. He tutors for a The Abyss wich slows me down, but 2 goyf were smashing him a lot.
g3: He had no relevant threats, but he managed to get a the abyss and a moat. This slows me enough and time called.
0-0-1

Round 2: BW Deadguy Ale
g1 I'm on the play, I cast inquisition on him and see a top, a plowshares, a vindicate, 2 lands, and an inquisition. Next turn I cast a goyf (I had 2 goyf, 1 knight and 1 pulse), then another discard, and he never finds land.
g2 he plays plains and passes, I open with seize on his bob. he casts blossom, and I discard a perish. He plays land and passes, I cast plague, then tourach, then goyf, then reliquary.

1-0-1

Round 3: Spiral Tide

I'm like "really? boo" but it was surprisingly good.
G1 I open with a disapointing and dispretentious mana-mox-goyf. then reliquary. (not a single disrupt at this point).
then I finally get a seize, and discard his time spiral. He tries to go off, even without TS, but he fizzles up.
g2 I deliver 2 hymns and a liliana. Too late... he managed to get a high tide and a time spiral, and after a long, long turn he wins.
g3 I open poorly, with only one seize. I cast seize, then goyf, then I tutor for a spellbomb. he tries to cast a time spiral, but I remove his grave. he gets a clumsy hand, and has to start over. that gave me enough time to kill him.
2-0-1

Round 4: TES

Battle-hardened against the previous combo match I wasn't so scared.
g1 I'm on the play, with mana, mox, 2 discards, then goyf, waste, then liliana ftw
g2 I lost on turn 1. simple as that.
g3 I open with discard, mox, next turn a reliquary, he was short on mana. I wanted to keep this advantage and buy time (I discarded his only cantrip) so I wasted his fetch. He cracked it, then I fetched another waste with my reliquary for his land and played another knight. by now the knights were 9/9.
next turn I swing, as he fails to draw land, then after he draws, he scoops.

3-0-1 and $ 110 in credits \o/

I'm still accepting suggestions. After the tournament, I played against an esper Miracles (basically UW miracles with nice options for side and 3 EE main deck) and it was a TERRIBLE match.
I'm still thinking about reverting to 23 lands, but I have no idea on wich to take away, and if elspeth is still playable with that land count.
ah, @Matt: I understand everything you said about garruk vs elspeth, but elspeth decides games faster than garruk.
Still suggestions accepted on my deck, and thanks for all your help!

@ Esper Miracles

I've seen the decklists for it on TK Decks, and yeah, it doesn't seem like the greatest matchup. We have few threats and no countermagic, which is basically what they're preying upon. It's definitely not the easiest matchup, but stuff like Sigarda and Planeswalkers will go a long way, as will control elements and discard strategies to push stuff like Choke through their web.

I'll proxy it up when I get the chance and try to grind 50 or so games against it and see what's what.

-Matt

OMG GRATS!!!!!

I really like the 2/1 planeswalker split as I am experimenting with a 2/1 Lilliana/Garruk right now:)

1)It sounds like goyf was hot and hymn was not, is that what you are discovering or was it just the draws the deck gave you?

2) No fourth confidant? is it a availability issue?

3) No GSZ? I imagine it is the same problem as confidant...

4) How did your sideboard treat you?

5) Grats on the win!!!

@lavafrogg
goyf was hot, as in all matches I played I needed a fast threat. Hymn was hot too, it just happen to be better on the play than on the draw.
About the missing cards and my current build, yeah it's all about availability. It's easier to find the fourth bob than a pair of gsz :s.
The sideboard has always been working fine... We have a lot of options.
I missed the third top (was using only 2 and I got one only in 1 game).

Nihil Spellbomb against Spiral Tide seems awkward. Extirpate and Surgical Extraction have value in removing their good spells, but Nihil barely does anything.

How was Infest for you?

GSZs dropped like a rock locally. 5 dollar card now. I really believe it's critical to own a set and at the current price there's no better time than now.

Beating Miracles requires Choke. I suppose Gaddock Teeg is optional, but I would never play without it.

@Mirrislegend:
I DO run extirpate and surgical, however I had tons of dead cards against spiral tide, like plowshares and pulse. In that sense, it is "less worse" to bring up the tutors (at least I could fetch the spellbomb, top, whatever).
That play was really awkward, but when you have no disruptions and you see your opponent is relying on time spiral, and he played a lot of his cantrips already, it starts looking like a good idea.
My side against Spiral Tide was: -3 plowshares -4 stp, +1 duress +1 iok, +1 spellbomb, +1 extirpate, +1 surgical, +2 tutors (due to the lack of options, as I mentioned, tutors were "less worse" than the cards I took away in this MU).
cracking the spellbomb when he attempted the time spiral won me the game btw, since he had nothing to shuffle and he drew a hand of lands and counterspells (and by this time I had already goyf and knight).

About GSZ dropping: Price is not an issue. Availability is. Still on gsz issue, of course, if you use it, you can put a ton of interesting things in your deck, like tracker, qasali, teeg, finks, etc., and this may put the deck in a better position, of course.
EDIT:
About infest: I didnt have the chance to play it. A fellow GW player just told me he played against it once and it was most unpleasant for him, so I guess it's still valid :). I's gonna be either this infest or a second plague, but I'm more towards infest.

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Originally Posted by Sughayyer

@Mirrislegend:

My side against Spiral Tide was: -3 plowshares -4 stp, +1 duress +1 iok, +1 spellbomb, +1 extirpate, +1 surgical, +2 tutors (due to the lack of options, as I mentioned, tutors were "less worse" than the cards I took away in this MU).

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just to clear it up, i am sure you mean -3 maelstrom pulse, playing 7 stps sounds strong. :D
Gratz to you! Always nice to see Rock perform well!

Ahaha that's right Thorondor I messed up. -3 pulse -4 stp :tongue:

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Originally Posted by Sughayyer

My side against Spiral Tide was: -3 plowshares -4 stp, +1 duress +1 iok, +1 spellbomb, +1 extirpate, +1 surgical, +2 tutors (due to the lack of options, as I mentioned, tutors were "less worse" than the cards I took away in this MU).

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From your list above, I would have changed this SB strategy a little bit. Pulse is actually still worthwhile, since they often will need to play candelabra to maximize their mana before they go off. You forgot you had Maze of ith in the main, which should be taken out before a pulse even if it makes the moxes a little worse. Additionally, I would probably take out the Elspeth before a pulse simply to hit candelabra, since Elspeth is pretty slow.

Also, since you're running a tutor board, you should consider some other targets like Nevermore or Ethersworn Canonist. Canonist on top of the discard plan should let you beat combo reliably, and nevermore is great for naming a lot of troublesome cards (Jace, Terminus, combo pieces, etc).

@Valtrix
Very few High Tides use candelabra, since it's almost impossible to find, expensive, and the deck works very well without them. Even if that were the case, a good player would most likely play the candelabra in his turn, after he's played the high tide, thus rendering pulse useles.
About the side, I agree with Canonist, but the SB is already way tight... but it would be a great asset, undoubtedly.

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Originally Posted by Sughayyer

@Valtrix
Very few High Tides use candelabra, since it's almost impossible to find, expensive, and the deck works very well without them. Even if that were the case, a good player would most likely play the candelabra in his turn, after he's played the high tide, thus rendering pulse useles.
About the side, I agree with Canonist, but the SB is already way tight... but it would be a great asset, undoubtedly.

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You are correct about a good Candelabra player

I think you can cut those Loams from your SB. What matchup are those useful in? You lose to RUG before you can use Loams to stabilize, and there's no other point to the card here. -2 Loam, -1 Surgical Extraction, +1 Extirpate, +2 Canonist

@Mirrislegend
You are right. I'm too afraid of a single 43-lands deck in my meta, and the moxen are already good against it. You are right about RUG as well. These are good cards but are occupying precious space.

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Originally Posted by Sughayyer

@Mirrislegend
You are right. I'm too afraid of a single 43-lands deck in my meta, and the moxen are already good against it. You are right about RUG as well. These are good cards but are occupying precious space.

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Extirpate/Surgical Extraction beat lands.dec. And they do more! They double as GY hate and combo hate: DESTROY lands.dec, Dredge, and any storm combo. It even hits Reanimator (just eat whichever creature they're targeting. Yes, I know there's unlikely to be more than 1 or 2 in the deck, but it still wastes their reanimation attempt). And I'll be testing them against UW control (eff you, Snaps into StP!). The only GY hate in my board is my set of Surgical Extractions (wish they were Extirpates, but Surgicals are useable in any deck I make, so I got more value for the money) and I have no regrets about it!