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Terminus (w/ Top for Instant speed), Swords to Plowshares (w/ Snapcaster), Umezawa's Jitte if running SFM or even worse with Squadron Hawk.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
Force of Will can be obnoxious, but with Cavern now in addition to Vial and Lackey resolving stuff has become even less of an issue.
If you're forgoing Stonforge Mystic and Snapcaster, going straight Miracles, + Humility.
Terminus, Terminus, TerminusQuote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
I'd run Thorn of Amethyst.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
Makes their cantrip/miracles/100% of their deck a lot worse. Also good against SnT.
Other than that, Pithing Needle.
Top is their best card, 2nd by Jace, and Needle locks both.
Earwig Squad can be nice too. Removing 50% of their win-cons, or getting rid of Terminus must be great.
Wouldn't bring in ReB against them I guess... The cards that scare you more are white...
If you're feeling extremely lucky, you can run Boggart Forager, leave Vial @1, and when they flip Top, you respond by Vialing it and cracking it! (and the crowd goes insaaaaaaaane!) =D
Edit: Fuck, answered the question backwards...
In UW, I hate to play against Entreat the Angels. fuck Terminus. If you play 1 Entreat at 5 mana, we're through. Even 1@4 mana, then 1@5 later fucks us. Play 3-4 of that shit.
Edit2: Oh! and Needle or Explosives. The game is way worse for us without and active Vial...
While Terminus is great at clearing the board, it never felt like the definite gameplan it is in other aggro matchups. Hitting 2-3 Goblins in play is great but unless your opponent decided to unload his hand asap, there still be 2-3 more Goblins coming down the next turn. Most of the even creating card advantage.
Therefore I'm looking something complementary to Terminus. Right now it's Humility but it feels pretty slow and is just a 3-of.
If you're running Humility what would your win con be? Jace and/or equipment?Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
Card advantage. Jace, Counterbalance. Also each x you pay for Entreat the Angels after you land Humility is also worth a card, basically. I'm also sporting 1 Vedalken Shackles right now which however isn't primarily meant for Goblins after all.
Still Humility alone ain't gonna cut it. Therefore I'm looking to improve the Goblin matchup beyond temporarily cleaning the board with Terminus. I don't wanna steal your time, just some cards you hate seeing out of UW Miracle.
@Julian - Jitte sucks to play against for Goblins. Chances are a goblin player would side OUT artifact removal against you games 2 and 3... Unless your running SFM.
@jrw - Hang in there bro! I appreciate your weekly posts cause I get to play tournament Legacy only once every few months... Last time I played was a pathetic 0-3 but each round was determined by a close 3rd match. Sometimes you eat the bear, sometimes the bear eats you.
On topic... I'm excited for Krenko! It is literally the only card from the new set I am buying. I'm also looking forward to RTR. No goblin lord in M13 tells me we're getting some playable toys in the new block.
Much appreciated. GoboLord was kind enough to PM me some encouraging words as well, and I think they paid off. I played in a small tourney yesterday and went 4-0! The players that were there were solid players that I've seen around the local scene a bunch, so it was a really fun tourney that went nice and quickly too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew
For my MD I decided to (once again) run the MD that top-8'd the last GP. AKA the one with Thalias. I wasn't going to have Drakes in the SB though, so I cut the Volcanic for another Plateau. In playing with the deck previously I had really really missed having Wasteland, so I cut 2 fetches and 2 Mountains for a playset of Wastelands. It was the right decision.
R1 Bant natural Order
G1 I'm on the draw and mull to 5 then get killed by a protection from everything hydra. It felt like 2010 again. Back then I would have had Weirdings to answer ProG, but not these days. I side in an Anarchy and move on to game 2.
G2 I keep my 7 but my opponent mulls to 4. I open on a Lackey and have a Waste for the Tabernacle he Crop Rotations for. W.
G3 We both keep our 7s. I land a T2 Thalia. He gets Tabernacle again. I manage to beat him down with a Warchief and Fanatic while Vial ticks up, and I let Thalia die. When Vial hits 5 my opponent is at 5 life. I have 4 lands in play. I sac the Fanatic to put him at 4, let the Warchief die, and vial in SGC, sac 2 tokens, and win. Someone asked me why I didn't pay to keep the Warchief around. I don't know if that was something I had considered or not. Either way would have been lethal, but I guess going the combat route might have left me susceptible to spot removal. Or I just noticed that I could kill him with SGC and my brain locked onto that line of play. Either way, I took the W.
1-0
R2 BW Affinity
This one also went to 3 games. I basically used Wastelands and spot removal to keep him from getting too much synergy going. Fanatic, Gempalm, and Pyrikinesis did a lot of work here.
2-0
R3 Ian Ellis playing the GWB/Junk/Dark Horizons deck that he won SCG Madison with.
G1 We both roll Snake Eyes as we're deciding who goes first. Then we both roll 1s. Ian finally wins the third roll and we both mull to 5. Ian's 5 is great and I quickly lose to a double Liliana and Stoneforge Mystic and Jitte.
G2 I lead with Lackey, he leads with Maze of Ith. I have the Wasteland, and we're off to game 3.
G3 Ian leads with a fetch that he doesn't crack. I lead with Lackey. He plays another Fetch and passes. I play a land and attack with Lackey. He fetches up a Dryad Arbor. i Gempalm it before blocks and drop a Warchief into play (I may have forgotten to draw off Gempalm, I wasn't sure). He plays a Timely Reinforcements. I Matron for a Sharpshooter. He scoops em up shortly thereafter.
3-0
R4 Goblin Mirror Match!!!
G1 My opponent is playing the Wasteland-less version of the GP Top-8ing deck. I'm on the draw and keep a hand that had either Lackey or T1 removal to defend against a Lackey from him. I don't remember the specifics but I win this one.
G2 I sided out all the Thalias for my SB goblins and a Sulfer Elemental. I lost this one to Pyrokinesis and Goblin King. He also Surgical Extractioned my Lackeys, which I thought was a pretty underwhelming SB choice. It seems to me that the mirror match will be won by whoever gets the most creatures in play. Therefor, I want the most creatures in my deck, not a card that gets rid of creatures in my opponent's deck.
G3 This time the King comes down on my side. W
4-0
In the mirror it worked well to sandbag Pyrokinesis for as long as possible. Blowing up Vials with Tuktuk worked pretty well too. My opponent Matroned for Gempalms, Sharpshooter, and SGC over the course of our match. I generally just Matroned for Ringleaders, trying to just have more cards than him at all times. I think it was a solid strategy.
Anyway, going 4-0 felt awesome after my recent string of disappointments. It was a super fun tournament and I just enjoyed the crap outta it. It was one of those days where things kinda fell together, and it all worked out.
Nice report jrw. Don't be discouraged from playing the game. Sometimes, you just need a break from the game.
I have also been testing the Thalia list, but with three Magus of the Moons and four Wastelands. I feel Magus of the Moon does what Thalia does but better against decks with greedy mana bases, but useless against mono-color decks. Magus of the Moon also synergies well with the Goblin King singleton. Thalia is great against storm decks @ turn 2 I guess but storm decks are irrelevant at my meta.
My friends and I had actually been discussing about a Winstigator list. I think for a Winstigator list, we can get rid of Goblin Warchief and just rely on cheat abilities via Lacky and Winstigator. For haste, we have Goblin Chieftain, though not necessary. Also, because we want to rely on cheats rather than hard cast, I want a ton of removals. Around 10 maybe? I was thinking four Gempalms, two Stingscourgers, and four Lightning Bolts. I don't know yet.
Lastly, I have been going to some local events, but I normally don't remember what goes on. How do you guys normally keep track of your tournament logs? A notebook?
Pocket sized spiral notepad. Then I just write down the life totals as they change, which is really helpful for recounting the events of a game. The last time I played I had a game where I was able to do exactly 5 damage to win the game. After dealing 5 damage my opponent said he was at 6 life, not 5. I was able to recount for him the damage he took at every point during the game and from what sources. I was correct, he had been at 5 life, not 6, and I won the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by L10
To keep track of what happened in a match I will also write notes under the games' life totals to remind me of how the match played out. I'll usually only do this if I have time between rounds.
I guess your meta could be way off from Source DTBs/SCG circuit, but looking at the trending decks of the past couple months, Magus of the Moon doesn't strike me as where the deck wants to be.Quote:
Originally Posted by L10
I don't think Magus of the Moon really targets the same archetypes as Thalia. Most top tier archetypes have mana bases set up with fetches and basics. Mana disruption isn't exactly unexpected when playing against goblins, so the opponent should know to manage their resources around Wasteland, which will play around Magus as well. Goblins doesn't have the advantage of Dragon Stompy where they can jam turn 1 Moon on the play and strand opening 7 fetches as Mountains.
Just considering major DTBs - RUG's burn is still online under Moon, it either doesn't care or kills the Magus as needed; Maverick plays basics and Noble/GSZ means they can get by off basic Forest; Reanimator has basics and often can execute their game plan before turn 3 anyway; UW Blade/Miracles is running 5+ basics; Elves runs out basics and will be going off the turn Magus drops, guess it blanks Gaea's Cradle, but seems lacking at CMC 3; Sneak and Show can support their own Moons; Dredge and Storm mostly ignore Moon.
Magus of the Moon seems good against BUG decks if that's a thing in your meta otherwise it strikes me as slow and too low impact in the current meta.
Thalia is actually complemented by Wasteland, unlike Magus that has no synergy. And the tax effect has application against all of the combo and control archetypes mentioned above, while coming online a turn earlier and being attached to a marginally better body. I'm not really sold that Thalia is where this deck wants to be right now, but she strikes me as a better non-Goblin beater than Magis of the Moon in the current metagame.
I do it very much the same way, only that I also write down the "cause" of life totals change. I write letters next to the lifetotals that help me remind the course of the game:Quote:
Originally Posted by jrw1985
F = fetchland
A = Attack
A² = Attack with 2 creatures
A³ = Attack with 3 creatures
SGC = Siege-Gang Commander's ability
Tom = Ancien Tomb
City = City of Brass
Bob = Dark Confidant
LB = Lightning Bolt
Stop = Swords to Plowshares
I can really recommend this way of taking noites, since this makes your notes very trustworthy to judges when you need it (like in the situation Jon described). Its only very few differen symbols that cover many of the common causes for lifeloss and -gain.
Thanks Gobolord and jwr. I will try to take notes next time. This will probably help me learn matchups with concrete notes. I am going to a tourney on on Wednesday, so I will see how it goes.
from Cairo,
My meta does have a lot of the DtB decks, but you do make a lot of good points. Oddly enough, even though I play goblins, many people do not go for basics until they get one or two dual lands online; namely RUG, Team America, and Esper Blade. Maverick do go straight for basics.
Magus simply destroys Team America, as they almost never have basic lands, iirc. I can almost say the same for Esper Blade. They may fetch for an island early on to go around Wasteland, but if my Magus gets online quick enough, it can really slow them down if they can't get get a Plain for StP or Swamp for Vindicate. It also slows them down to get Jace online, which is always a plus. Magus is bad against RUG, but if they do not expect Magus, they may not fetch for basics early on. If they don't, I just have to worry about Lightning Bolt, and sometimes Grim Lavamancer, though I can easily answer Grim Lavamancer.
I do think Magus is decent (sometimes strong) in round one as a surprise. But for round two, I just side them out for proper answers, unless it's Team America. There are no Reanimator or Storms in my meta, I don't think, so they are irrelevant.
The first/last time I played with Magus, I played against Team America, The Rock, UWbr Blade, and Mono White Control. I think Magus did pretty well against the first three pre-board. My deck completely failed against the Mono White Control because he managed to get Ghostly Prison, Magus of the Tabernacle, and Suppression Field early on both games, and I didn't have Anarchy in my SB as an answer. :/
I do agree that Thalia and Magus fundamentally does different things, and Thalia may be better if you are willing to slash, but it does make your mana source more vulnerable. I am not sure if I am okay with that. I also do not have Plateaus to try Thalia out myself, so I can't comment on it.
I am testing Thalias as well and they are working out pretty well for me. It is a must answer for many decks, especially the ones we are weakiest against and that s fabulous. They actually do something in every MU. Against aggro it is nice to force them to spend 1 more for their removal, slowing down their clock. I guess we are the deck that runs the lowest non-creature count so thalia fits really good. I am testing with only 4 non creature cards MD (aether vial) and it is working well. I suggest you to try them out. Splashing is not an issue as long as the cards you put in have legs. We run 4 aether vial and 4 cavern of souls anyway, adding fetches and dual-lands makes thalia easy to cast. Also, I really dont get what is all this worry about opponent wastelands... since the printing of cavern of souls wastelands can hit monoR goblins manabases anyway...Quote:
Originally Posted by jrw1985
I am also testing 2-3 mother of runes (human) alongside thalias (human) in the white splash. They are pretty sweet (thank you cavern of souls!). Protection is an awsome ability in this deck allowing you to:
- hit with lackey/piledriver/WI when u have a goyf/knight/huge-guy on the other side of the board
- nullify opponent's spot removal
- prevent opponent's jitte from getting counters (awsome)
- chump blocking forever a 10/10 knight of the reliquary
I do feel that white splash (with legs) has great potential because it can answer ALL threats that are harsh to us. I havent found the right numbers tho, however, I encourage you to give it a try.
Thanks for that. My only problem with your suggestion is that Animators and TES/ANT have approximately the same presence, so I could not completely remove the CotVs to make way for additional Cages.Quote:
Originally Posted by liamb
On a side question, how many do you guys think is the appropriate number of Caverns? I tried 2, and it was alright, from satisfactory to good. I found that I never needed more than 1 on the field since it leaves me open to wasteland and the occasional Price of Progress, although I sometimes feel I don't see it enough in my hand.
Just a question out of left field, but has anyone tried Ghost Quarter in there goblin list, I am thinking around 2 copies. My thoughts being :
A) RUG Delver is the best deck in the format. Running essentially 6 wastelands against them with no basics to grab is very big.
B) The same reason I think Price of Progress is bad, I think Ghost Quarter could be fine. Most decks will grab there only basics to play around wasteland, and would be very surprised running into Ghost Quarter.
C) Can deal with Pendelhaven, Maze, and Chasms like Wasteland 5-6. Who cares if they grab there basics because dealing with these lands is everything.
D) Good against Land Tax !!
I think Tec edge is quite bad (in legacy) so lets not compare it to that. Any yes, I think Ghost Quarter may be better then Ports. Who knows, any thoughts would be great.
Rishadan Port looks better in almost every situation, and locks basic lands too, which is awesome sometimes.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblueduck
As I began playing Goblins I wasn't able to provide the money for Ports and Wastelands right away. So I looked up alternatives and found Dust Bowl, Tectonic Edge and Ghost Quarter. Pondering about those and asking in the German mtg-forum brought me to the point where none of them is relevant as for the mana-denial plan. The first two are way too slow while Ghost Quarter fetches up an untapped basic land. But as for dealing with utility lands Ghost Quarter really is an option. That's why I took the playset and 17 mountains to my first tournaments where they did pretty decent in dealing with Maze of Ith, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale and Grove of the Burnwillows. For Goblin starters with money issues I would always recommend the quarters. Perhaps this could be primer advice material.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblueduck
But since I got my ports and can borrow the wastes I never went back to the quarters nor thought about combining wastes and quarters. You could run them instead of ports but there is the above mentioned downside of quarters that in most cases you won't know your opponents list -> if they are able to fetch up basics.
They could be interesting for R/x builds... Quartering (and wasting) opposing Wastelands before you fetch up your own duals. Oh and even as an additional fetchland that 2for1s up your splash colour if you really need it. Not so much for this weird R/W Thalia build though, where you want her on t2 to fight combo. But it seems interesting for any R/G or R/B build. That's something I'd like to see tested.
But since Ghost Quarter competes with Rishadan Port we'd have to relinquish ports considerable benefits (that make me keep it as a 2off):
+ Its true manadenial wins games. Even more with an active vial.
+ When you build up arround those two tapped lands you can use both for the alpha strike while quarters, once used, are gone.
+ Port can be a small advantage against dredge or any other deck with City of Brass.
Downsides are:
- It does not affect every utility land (The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Grove of the Burnwillows etc.).
- There has to be another land to activate port's ability.
To make a point I'd say if you sport a monored list, you should definitely go for ports. But as I said, I'd like see a R/x build test 2 quarters instead of two ports.
Edit: Splashing with basics so quarter can be a fetchland is not the greatest trick to do. But never mind, I had my happy 2 minutes.
@Ghost Quarter
Realize this: If you run 4 Waste and 4 Quarter, play and activate all of them, you will have destroyed 8 of your own lands and only 4 of your opponent's.
Port sees play over Ghost because you can use Port to deny their mana. When denying their mana is no longer effective you can use Port to cast your own spells. Ghost doesn't provide that versatility.
So I just got back from a 28 man tournament. I thought it was Wednesday but got the date wrong. I took a notebook with me for notes. I didn't know the meta and decided to go with the SB similar to Jim Davis's. Here is the list I went with:
// Lands [20]:
12 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
// Core [21]:
4 AEther Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Siege-Gang Commander
// Others [19]:
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Mogg War Marshal
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Arms Dealer
// Sideboard
1 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Boartusk Liege
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Relic of Progenitus
Match 1 - RUG Delver Tempo
Game 1 - He leads with Nimble Mongoose. I played Vial. He swung me a couple times with a 1/1 Nimble, but eventually got it to 3/3 and with two 3/2 Delvers. He broght me down to 9 as I was trying to build my army of tokens. I drew a Gempalm and burned the Delver. It got me a Ringleader. Played Ringleader, which got my a Warchief, Arms Dealer, and Piledriver. He passed his turn and vialed in Warchief. I drew another Piledriver. Vialed in Arms Dealer and used Arms dealer on Delver. I played both Piledrivers and swung with everyone (Warchief, Arms Dealer, two Piledrivers, and a token). He blocks a Piledriver, took 13 damage, and brings him down to 4. He concedes next turn.
Game 2 - He leads with Mongoose. Cavern, Lackey, Go. He plays Lightning Bolt with Taiga, and Wastelands my Cavern of Souls. Swings for 1. I put down Cavern and passed. He swings with Nimble again for 1, and Wastelands my Cavern. No land, passed. He layed a Tundra, swung for one, and played Delver. I drew a Wasteland, layed it down, and passed. He flipped his Delver showing Brainstorm. He Brainstorms, plays a Tundra, and swung with Nimble and Delver for 6, knocking me down to 11. Drew a Vial and played it. He flips his Delver, swung me down to 2, and Bolt me for the finish.
Game 3 - He mulled to four! Cavern, Lackey, Go. He plays a Delver and passed. Gempalm his Delver, attacked with Lackey, cheats in a SGC. He drew and passed his turn. I swung for six, cheat in Warchief, and play a Piledriver and MWM. He lays a Taiga and passed. I played another Piledriver, and swung with everyone. He bolts one of my Piledrivers and scoops.
2-1
Match 2 - Reanimator
Game 1 - Turn two Elesh Norn and I concede.
Game 2 - Cavern, Lackey, Go. He Ponders and passed. I played Relic, swung with Lackey, and cheat in Warchief. He Brainstorms and passed. I played Skirk Prospector, swung, cheat in Gempalm Incinerator. He plays Pithing Needle for my Relic and plays Entomb, and passed. I played Piledriver, and swung for the Alpha Strike.
Game 3 - He plays Needle for calling Relic. I played Grafdigger's Cage and he scoops. He told me he wasn't expecting me to have Cage because he only saw Relic on Game 2. He sided out Echoing truth for Game 3 and does not have Show and Tell as an alternate win-con.
2-1
Match 3 - Merfolk
Game 1 - He mulls to five, and plays a Vial. I had a Cavern, Mountain, and three Piledrivers. I just played my Piledrivers every turn and swung for the win.
Game 2 - He plays Carverns calling Merfolk. Mountain, Lackey, Go. He lays Mutavault and passed. I Wasteland his Mutavault, swung with Lackey, cheat in Matron, and picked up a Piledriver. He plays LoA, which I REBed. I played Piledriver with Caverns, swung, and cheat in MWM. He has nothing and I alpha striked next turn.
2-0
Edit: Got Game 1 and Game 2 flipped.
Match 4 - RWB Blade
Game 1 - Mountain, Lackey, Go. He plays Grim Lavamancer and passes. I Gempalmed with Grim Lavamancer, swung with Lackey, and cheat in Warchief, and play a MWM. He lays a land and passes. I swung with everyone, and he bolts my Lackey. He plays Dark Confidant and passes. I Gempalmed his Dark Confidant, played Piledriver, and swung. He draws a card and concede.
Game 2 - He plays a Engineered Plaque, destroying most of my goblins. It was funny because he had double Dark Confidants, and it almost killed him. We were both at 4 before he finished me off. He shows me his next card: Batterskull. lol
Game 3 - I sided in Boartusk Liege but he steals it with Tidehollow Sculler. He lays down a Engineered Plague, and beat me to death eventually.
1-2
Thoughts: I didn't get to use Thorn except for the one time which is got Spell Snared, which is odd because I have four of them. :/ I sided them out pretty much every time. Though, it may have helped against the RWB Blade in hindsight. I only used Arms Dealer once but thought it was pretty good, especially since I have a ton of tokens most of the time.
Overall, I wished I had Chieftains or another Boartusk Liege against Engineered Plagues. Though I don't really know what to cut. I think the deck works pretty well as is. This place holds weekly tournaments, so I think I going to attend every week.
Sorry, I got lazy towards the end with my report, but I think the less wordy I am, the better. I will record I sideboarded in and out next time.