[Deck] Imperial Painter

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Originally Posted by Kap'n Cook

What do you guys think of this board:


3 Firebolt
1 Pyroclasm
1 red elemental blast

1 enlightened tutor
1 sphere of law
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Rest in Peace
1 trinisphere
1 thorn of amethyst
1 Engineered Explosives

1 Duergar hedge-mage
2 Koth of the Hammer


Mainly thinking that if I want to spike a tournament then the more-prevalent-in-paper burn auto loss just seems unacceptable. I'm rationalizing it by looking at ee as a pseudo clasm that can make up for it.

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So you are cutting as one creature removal for the sphere? I think that is totally reasonable. I've been seeing a lot of the grixis young pyromancer deck lately and the sphere is a very reasonable card in that MU as well. Also, have you ever played with magma jet.? I'm actually trying a few copies main as burn seems decent in almost every MU and the scrye is relevant. I've liked it so far and it opens up spots in my board. I did have to trim the revoker from my main though.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kap'n Cook

What do you guys think of this board:


3 Firebolt
1 Pyroclasm
1 red elemental blast

1 enlightened tutor
1 sphere of law
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Rest in Peace
1 trinisphere
1 thorn of amethyst
1 Engineered Explosives

1 Duergar hedge-mage
2 Koth of the Hammer


Mainly thinking that if I want to spike a tournament then the more-prevalent-in-paper burn auto loss just seems unacceptable. I'm rationalizing it by looking at ee as a pseudo clasm that can make up for it.

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Are you still running Ethersworn Canonist Main?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kap'n Cook

What do you guys think of this board:


3 Firebolt
1 Pyroclasm
1 red elemental blast

1 enlightened tutor
1 sphere of law
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Rest in Peace
1 trinisphere
1 thorn of amethyst
1 Engineered Explosives

1 Duergar hedge-mage
2 Koth of the Hammer


Mainly thinking that if I want to spike a tournament then the more-prevalent-in-paper burn auto loss just seems unacceptable. I'm rationalizing it by looking at ee as a pseudo clasm that can make up for it.

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I would echo these comments. I have been very happy with the sphere in the sideboard, both for burn as well as for pyromancer decks.

Regarding the pyroclasm: lately I have been running bloodfire dwarf or mryt of ashes as a quick seachable answer.

I have also put Jaya in the side for the meantime with a canonist in the main and one in the side.

One final note which someone pointed out regarding the omni matchup which I have found very helpful:

Grindstone them asap and keep them off delve for dig through time! If they resolve this EOT your likely going to lose.

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Originally Posted by mcbain

One final note which someone pointed out regarding the omni matchup which I have found very helpful:

Grindstone them asap and keep them off delve for dig through time! If they resolve this EOT your likely going to lose.

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Yes, but be careful not to do this so as to enable Dig Through Time in response to the Emrakul trigger.

The whole deck is in the grave, I'm not 100% sure on how dig works with less than 2 cards in the deck.. don't they just die?

Regardless, what your suggesting is not a thing.

And for bonus points sometimes they are holding the emakul.

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Originally Posted by RingoDeathStarr

Yes, but be careful not to do this so as to enable Dig Through Time in response to the Emrakul trigger.

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You're right, think I mixed up my logic in Painter vs. Non-Painter scenarios with a Grindstone here. In any case, you're correct, sorry about zat.

So I have been brewing this list with ajani and have really liked it against Omni show, miracles, and Bug lists. I am still needing to do testing before I say anything about the delver match up at this time. I will be posting the 75 with thoughts in the next day. I am just stuck on my lame iPhone and that is tedious to say the least. I want to get the list out there as I want others thoughts and input.

Disclaimer though is that it isn't done. There is still no graveyard in the 75 as that is always what I put in last as I shave the least effective cards. The reason I am excited about this build is bc this is the first time in years I built the deck from the ground up. I know jack and I have tried to come up with a list of say 52 cards everyone should play. And while most of those cards are here, when I built it I didn't modify my existing deck but totally ripped it apart and pulled all the cards from the box. It really did allow me to look at the deck in different ways and totally change how I built it. Hell I even have an additional fastens source in the board which is something I would have never tried before.

Seth

Ajani Vengeant? Spoiler alert....
It sucks. I tried it for quite a while and it didn't do anything exciting. I actually lost to Miracles 3 times with Ajani out. The +1 ability is very inconsequential against many MUs. If you want a planeswalker I would still go with Chandra.
I do like the idea of reconstructing the deck though. Looking forward to your list.


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I have to say he has been a fucking rock star. The keeping stuff tapped has always been useful. And the removal and life gain has been solid to say the least. I really can't think of a game over the past 2 weeks I would have liked Chandra more than Ajani. I think it is how you use him. I will also add that I have been running Koth in the board which gives 4 planeswalkers for miracles to deal with. That has been huge. I know I also initially laughed at the thought of Ajani but the card is incrediBly strong.


Seth

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Originally Posted by sroncor1

I have to say he has been a fucking rock star. The keeping stuff tapped has always been useful. And the removal and life gain has been solid to say the least. I really can't think of a game over the past 2 weeks I would have liked Chandra more than Ajani. I think it is how you use him. I will also add that I have been running Koth in the board which gives 4 planeswalkers for miracles to deal with. That has been huge. I know I also initially laughed at the thought of Ajani but the card is incrediBly strong.


Seth

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How are you playing and using ajani on the board? Strategically speaking

Due to my uses of Vengeant in modern; my guess as to the situations where I board him in would be Burn of course. One helix maybe two should gain 2+ turns against them. Zoo sometimes a 3/3 nactl can get there and a helix to that could help us stall out longer. Perhaps ou can board him in against MUD to kill revoker/metalworker/lodestone which is nice. Plus keeping a cloud post tapped sometimes matters. Miracles it's a toss up, it's an extra Planeswalker so the ultimate is the goal here. I think he could even be brought in against Delver to kill delver/pyro or keep a goyf/tasigur tapped. Due to these options I don't think Chandra could do better in those spots so testing him, in the right meta of course, can be useful to teach us things.

I tried out Ajani for about a week when the idea came up a bit ago, and I have to say that I'm not personally a fan. Because his plus doesn't actually tap things itself, just keeps them tapped, I found him to be subpar against Miracles, where he basically becomes a Lightning Helix for every 2 turns you "tap" a land, which then in turn undoes whatever tapping you've established. In several games, I've lost because this card is Ajani, and not Koth, and feel like Chandra or Daretti would have gotten there too.

Against Delver and the like, I just think it's so slow, and is easily outclassed by Tarmogoyf, Young Pyromancers, Batterskulls etc. Against DnT, I'm sure this card is excellent if it doesn't die on the crackback the turn after it's played, or isn't revokered, etc.

I'd imagine Ajani is at his best, like all of our potential planeswalkers, sitting behind a Bridge, and for that I still think Koth or Chandra are better - Koth, rather than giving you a helix every 2-3 turns, pretty much can tick up twice and then auto-wins against most of the format; Chandra can ping away or basically draw cards in a way that doesn't mess with your bridge. Even Daretti can at least keep the bridge recurring through removal, and dig you deeper towards the combo. Without Bridge, Ajani does defend himself better than the rest, but it sort of seems like that's all he accomplishes comparatively.

I feel like if taxing is something the decks wants, we could run a Thalia in the board for Recruiter to find, or if it's offensive, have a small Stoneforge package for Jitte/SoLS/SoFI/Batterskull if the lifegain/damage output is what we're looking for, or if it's defensive, the ability to tap down attackers, Meekstone, Moat, or another Bridge to E-Tutor for.

Still, I would like to know how other people are finding him, and how they're using him to draw such positive conclusions.

Ok, let me correct my previous statement by saying this:
Ajani isn't bad against certain MUs where spot creature removal is good. It can keep a goyf tapped or burn out a delver or a deathrite. It can sometimes also work to keep an opponent off a particular color by keeping a land tapped. Having said that, I would much rather have Chandra against really creature heavy/tribal decks like elves/goblins/death&taxes as the removal is constant and ticks Chandra up. With Ajani you usually just get one or two shots with the helix effect and then he dies.
I am also primarily thinking about control MUs like Miracles, where Chandra/Koth/Daretti are MUCH better than Ajani. Sure, Ajani's ultimate is obviously good against any deck. But realistically, you are going to pull that off rarely. Just try to race a Jace with an Ajani, it doesn't work. Like I said, I have played multiple games against Miracles with Ajani on the board and have still lost to Jace. At least Koth or Chandra can effectively race a Jace and Chandra's general utility/card advantage engine puts her way over the top in my opinion. I guess it just depends on what you are using Ajani for. In the Miracles MU, where I need my planeswalkers to shine, Ajani is not what I'm looking for.


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I tried Kim Grymer's top 8 list from GP Amsterdam yesterday at a 5 round tournament - and it seems to me that my meta with Lightning Bolts is TOO hostile :P
And 18 lands seems too greedy :P

Do anyone have had experiences with a 20 land list? :)

And with regards to Ajani - as some of you say - the miracles MU, yes, they have a tough time handling PW's, but Daretti and Koth are the best PW's in my opinion.. I will be posting a decklist either later today or tomorrow, that I would like some feedback on, if you guys don't mind? :)

Btw - Is Faithless Looting not being concidered for the deck? :P

I personally run 20 lands and it works fine for me. It's very rare I don't x/0 - x/1 or win my local events.

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Originally Posted by Moomba

I personally run 20 lands and it works fine for me. It's very rare I don't x/0 - x/1 or win my local events.

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How does your list look like? (If you wanna share?) :)

And do you play Mono R or R/W? :P

RW imo is a much, much stronger option over mono R, as enlightened tutor being really strong for finding your combo, it also essentially triples your sideboard enchantment and artifacts pluse adds new options. To each their own of course, my 2 cents.

I waver back and forth between 19 and 20 lands, with the 20th almost always being a 6th fetchland in the r/w version. I think I prefer 20, for the most part, but I also play 3 sensei's tops, and like the added shuffle effect and mana to spin.
Some times my decklist is very focused, and I shave toolbox cards like MD canonist for the land, and other times my sideboard will be testing a card with intensive color requirements, and I'll run an extra fetch for that reason.

It may just be in my head, but I also mulligan a lot less with 20 lands in the deck, and it doesn't make an appreciable difference in flooding out.

I played a list some while ago that had 18 lands, 4 SSG's and 3 Petals and it was crap, but with 20 lands (MonoR) - I seem to be flooding a lot :P

My manabase right now looks like 4 Tomb, 3 City, 2 Furnace, 6 fetches and 5 mountains... Maybe one should try 7 fetch, 4 mountains? :P

Used Jack's list last night to 4-0 at my LGS
against Hypergenesis, Miracles, Burn, and Manaless dredge.
Dodged a second miracles player and 2 elves :)
Only lost game 2 to burn due to mulling to 5. 2-0'd the rest. Koth really helped me win game 2 against miracles. Deck was pretty consistent. Game 1 against burn I managed to get a painter out with him tapped out, and used top to double blast his only lands and win next turn. I modified jack's list by adding in a vexing shusher but I never drew it against miracles.