[Primer/Deck] Pox

Have you ever had your deck just stop working? I was running reasonably hot at my LGS's weekly event, winning record every week, so forth. The past two weeks though, the only match I've won was vs Manaless Dredge and I board 4 Leylines, so it's a bye. I think that what has happened is the meta has shifted - the delver players haven't been around since November. I really noticed it this week, I saw multiple planeswalker decks and artifact based decks that are tough matchups. I lost this week to Tezzerator and D+T and beat Dredge. I scooped 4th round to Aluren. I would have won, but I was mildly tilted and wanted to go home. I felt I should have beat D+T, but whatever. Does anyone have ideas to shake up your list or tune vs planeswalkers/ less delver? I haven't really bent my mind to it yet. I may play Storm next week because I feel the field is wide open to it, but I'd like to think about how to adjust Pox to a less favorable meta. Sorry this is rambling. My list is Mono-Black with no expensive Legends cards - All the usual stuff +2 Big Pox, Night of Souls Betrayal, Toxic Deluge main, Rack, Trini, Leyline, Plague, Needle in the board. I will probably think about this and get back with a more coherent post some time this week.
-Cheers

If you want to beat walkers, depending on the walkers they're playing, you want to put three needles in the board and strongly consider adding a color. For the large walkers, you want to play white for vindicate and lingering souls, if it's small walkers, you want green cause they can't counter abrupt decay. Either way you consider a couple bitterblossom in your 75. For death and taxes, you want 2-4 board wipes and/or enchantments that make their life miserable, ex dread of night, toxic deluge, night of souls' betrayal, infest or some such. I also like at least two cursed scroll against D&T, and neither deck enjoys getting armageddoned out of the board, and either garruk relentless or sorin, lord of inestrad out of the board is good pressure. Liliana, the last hope, is also good against D&T and most walker decks don't apply enough pressure her enough to keep her off her ultimate.

Underworld Dreams can screw up walkers very nicely. The damage can be redirected to them, and if it's Jace then his Brainstorm ability will kill him instantly.

I have 4 Cursed Scroll, Night of Soul's Betrayal and Toxic Deluge main, plus another Toxic Deluge and 2 Engineered Plague in the Board, so I feel confident vs. Death + Taxes in general. I might actually cut a Cursed Scroll. I think I will cut a Pox for a 2nd MD Deluge, and up the SB Pithing Needle count to 3.

I have The Rack in the SB which can fight Planeswalkers as well.

I used to run a white splash years and years ago, just for Vindicate main and Gerrard's Verdict/Disenchant in the side. There has been much printed since(like Flagstones of Trokair, Sorin, Lingering Souls), maybe I'll give it another look.
I have a G/B list i used to play as well, it's Loam/Chalice/Pox. I have considered just splashing for Abrupt Decay and Sylan Library (and Choke), but the current reality is that I don't own Verdant Catacombs, Marsh Flats, Bayous, or Scrublands, so I'm trying to tough it out as mono black.

I like Liliana, the Last Hope's plus and ultimate, but she overlaps with Liliana of the Veil, and her minus is blank, so I'm not certain it worth it. Maybe I'll try her out, her emblem is a solid win con.
For reference, here's my list:

4 Dark Ritual
4 Innocent Blood
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cursed Scroll
2 Pox
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Nether Spirit
1 Night of Soul's Betrayal
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
10 Swamp

SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 The Rack
SB: 3 Trinisphere
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge

I too wanted to run Liliana, the Last Hope. However, I proxied her as a test and due to extremely tight spacing, I could only get 2 of her into my main deck. Current deck runs akin to Tom Ross's 'deck tech: Pox' shown on youtube, with my preferences of Sinkholes and no Tabernacle.

She really wants to be in a low CMC zombie tribal deck. Having a planeswalker with 2 near useless abilities is a bad call. It's like half of a Contagion, only not permanent. My foes usually have creatures with more than 1 toughness [DRS grr]. Now if she managed to "Dead Weight" creatures with a -2/-2 counter, then she can take my money!

Killing Planeswalkers is actually not about a specific card, though Pithing Needle is the one most people will definitely recommend. I find 1-2 to be about right but the real key to killing enemy Planeswalkers is actually something more general: more threats.

My sideboard includes 4 more 'hard target' threats: The Rack, Cursed Scroll #2, Shrieking Affliction, and Syphon Life. I understand that Syphon Life doesn't hurt Planeswalkers but it's something to get me some life back during really slow grinders. That and control/burn decks hate it :laugh:

Took my Pox to the local legacy tournament last night. It ran very well but I did see changes that need to occur for some more fine tuning. One of which is including another wincon.
Anyways I went:

Enchantress 2-0 win
-Quick easy win. Game two he halo ruined my liliana to keep me from force sacking his enchantress but I dropped Chains and plowed over her with Mishra's Factory.
D&T 1-0-1
-Draw game
Faeries 1-2 lose
-last game hit a land pile that consisted of top decking 13 lands and I died.

Dropped due to time constraints and no chance of top 8.

Hi guys, I'm interested in building mono black Pox as another Legacy deck and I wanted to get some input on this pretty stock list:


Lands (22)
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
10 Swamp

Spells (38)
2 Nether Spirit
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Cursed Scroll
1 Nether Void
1 The Abyss
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
3 Innocent Blood
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox


Would you change something? What are you thoughts on Nether Void and The Abyss? Do I have enough win conditions? I often see Tabernacle in Pox lists but I wonder how good it really is without a tutor effect.

Thanks in advance :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HansoRaptor

Hi guys, I'm interested in building mono black Pox as another Legacy deck and I wanted to get some input on this pretty stock list:


Lands (22)
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
10 Swamp

Spells (38)
2 Nether Spirit
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Cursed Scroll
1 Nether Void
1 The Abyss
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
3 Innocent Blood
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox


Would you change something? What are you thoughts on Nether Void and The Abyss? Do I have enough win conditions? I often see Tabernacle in Pox lists but I wonder how good it really is without a tutor effect.

Thanks in advance :)

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Nether void is nice but unless you play against a storm, burn, or combo deck I find that it doesn't slow the opponent as much as you would like. The abys is worth keeping main board. You can drop to 2 cursed scrolls and be perfectly fine. I've had no luck with nether void in any situation. He's not a wincon even though he has good synergy with the deck.
Tabernacle is just another synergy card. You'll control well without it but the fact Pox goes top deck mode quickly the static effect helps a lot.
I'm currently trying to include more viable wincons to the deck but need to test more. Ob Nixilis, the rack, Phyrexian Obliterator, and Tombstalker all have an appeal but which is best is my own question? Not just the answer of it has good synergy but it's is best.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ghostfire86

Nether void is nice but unless you play against a storm, burn, or combo deck I find that it doesn't slow the opponent as much as you would like. The abys is worth keeping main board. You can drop to 2 cursed scrolls and be perfectly fine. I've had no luck with nether void in any situation. He's not a wincon even though he has good synergy with the deck.
Tabernacle is just another synergy card. You'll control well without it but the fact Pox goes top deck mode quickly the static effect helps a lot.
I'm currently trying to include more viable wincons to the deck but need to test more. Ob Nixilis, the rack, Phyrexian Obliterator, and Tombstalker all have an appeal but which is best is my own question? Not just the answer of it has good synergy but it's is best.

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What is your opinion on Pox? Is it good enough to be played as a 1/2-off or would you just ignore it since we have Smallpox already?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HansoRaptor

What is your opinion on Pox? Is it good enough to be played as a 1/2-off or would you just ignore it since we have Smallpox already?

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I only run smallpox. Pox is nice but Liliana basically covers Pox's job except for the 1/3rd life lose.

My current deck list:

http://www.essentialmagic.com/Decks/View.asp?ID=998161

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ghostfire86

I only run smallpox. Pox is nice but Liliana basically covers Pox's job except for the 1/3rd life lose.

My current deck list:
http://www.essentialmagic.com/Decks/View.asp?ID=998161

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Thanks, I really appreciate your help :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HansoRaptor

Hi guys, I'm interested in building mono black Pox as another Legacy deck and I wanted to get some input on this pretty stock list:


Lands (22)
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
10 Swamp

Spells (38)
2 Nether Spirit
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Cursed Scroll
1 Nether Void
1 The Abyss
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
3 Innocent Blood
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox


Would you change something? What are you thoughts on Nether Void and The Abyss? Do I have enough win conditions? I often see Tabernacle in Pox lists but I wonder how good it really is without a tutor effect.

Thanks in advance :)

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i think your a little low on the land count, i would add two more swamps in there.. :smile:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zenitramleirdag

i think your a little low on the land count, i would add two more swamps in there.. :smile:

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23-25 count is the sweet spot depending on how many Pox and Smallpox your running and if you are running Crucible of Worlds

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ghostfire86

23-25 count is the sweet spot depending on how many Pox and Smallpox your running and if you are running Crucible of Worlds

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Thanks for pointing that out. I guess I will go for 24 lands + Crucible.

I haven't had much time to play legacy lately, but I've been doing some pox-related thought experiments here and there that I'd like to get some feedback on. I'll kick things off with the following:

Q. Mishra's Factory. Do we really want these?

I know they are kind of a sacred cow for this deck, but I have to be honest I've been pretty underwhelmed by them (and I'm saying this after I went out of my way to get the full set of Antiquities seasons, too).

Factories necessitate the use of Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth, and between those two we set ourselves up for some awkward draws, like one swamp and a factory, or two factories and a wasteland, stuff like that. This deck is extremely reliant on getting BB in on turn 2, and factories make that awkward sometimes.

The Factory + Urborg combo is also fragile to wasteland - both are good targets, and if we are relying on Urborg to get us out of an otherwise colorless land draw, waste on Urborg can be game over.

In addition to disrupting our own early game, the factories don't contribute a huge amount to the mid to late game either. In mid game, we almost always want to be spending mana on something other than activating a factory, since doing so effectively costs 2 potential mana. This seems at odds with cursed scroll, which is also very mana hungry.

In the end game, Factory contributes to a kill only very slowly - and if the opponent does manage to get a creature of any kind, it can be blocked and likely killed.

Keep in mind also that factories will soon be even more fragile due to Fatal Push, because that card can kill manlands.

So in summary, if factories have the potential to disrupt our own mana early game when its most critical to disrupt the opponent, are good targets for opposing wastelands, compete for scarce resources with another win condition (cursed scroll), and aren't strong finishers in the late game, then why do we need them? Being able to attack for 2 each turn against an empty board doesn't seem good enough.

So what could we do instead?

I'll throw out a few ideas, but I really want to hear what others think.

Alternative 1: Rishadan Port.

I know I'm not the first to suggest this, but I haven't seen it in any pox lists in a long time. While Port does share some of the same weaknesses as Factory in terms of potentially awkward colorless draws and wanting Urborg, it seems to contribute more directly to the plan of resource denial, especially if we're on a mana denial build with sinkholes. It isn't a win condition, true, but it does help more in those crucial early turns, acting as a temporary sinkhole to turn off colors and such. And it can force awkward decisions for the opponents fetchlands as well.

Alternative 2: Swamps.

Swamps may not be as glamorous as Factory or port, but basic lands have plenty of advantages in legacy, and consistency is super valuable. If we replaced factories with swamps, we would no longer need Urborg -- making our mana base rock solid and completely blanking opposing wastelands in the process.

Alternative 3: your suggestions!


Have awkward colorless or Urborg draws ever cost you games with Pox?

How often does Factory beat down actually win the game for you?

Interested to hear what people think.

What you are suggesting is the removal of a wincondition and replacing it with items, while beneficial, will not win the game under and circumstances. Your assessment is well grounded, but your suggestion of more Swamps, then we won't need Urborg; sure, okay. But then how are we winning games? 60 Swamps is a bedrock solid mana base, but will lose every time. If you're suggestion is to just lean harder on Cursed Scroll, another glacially slow win condition, then you're losing sight of your argument.
The magic of Pox is that all of our effects are symmetrical, so it's "fair". Look guys, Smallpox hurts me too! Why is everybody angry? Manlands by their nature dodge sorcery speed removal and allow us to maintain threats while whimsically trowing out edict effects. That synergy is a price paid in low power and a Wasteland susceptible mana base. Other players are making the same decisions you are, they're just choosing a high power creature with the downside that it dies to Smallpox. Which is fine, because they're not planning to have Smallpox cast during 100% of their matches. We are, so our priorities must shift to reflect that.
And any manland will do, it's just that Mishra's Factory has shown itself to be the best return for a small investment. Other options for the bigger splash are stuff like Chimeric Idol or Phyrexian Totem. Only other route is to just use real creatures, but Nether Spirit is just as slow as Mishra's Factory, and anything else is making you weak to your own cards. Some aggro Pox decks do end up looking like this, but they're outside of what most consider traditional Pox.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by heyjohnsexton

Alternative 3: your suggestions!

Have awkward colorless or Urborg draws ever cost you games with Pox?

How often does Factory beat down actually win the game for you?

Interested to hear what people think.

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1. No. I mulligan.
2. Very often. In fact, I'd say factory wins me the most games cause it's the only threat I have that's 4-of and CONSISTENTLY punches you in the face.

What do I think? I think if you want to win 'faster', you have to include 1-2 Big Pox. 1/3rd life loss makes hard-to-kill threats that deal 2-3 damage a very big deal. (The Rack, Chimeric Idol, Mishra's Factory, Chimeric Mass [if you don't run wastelands]) Want to have 5-6 "small poxes"? There's your answer! ^_^ I did actually have a build with 8 Poxes once which resembled the ancient build but removed the Dark Rituals for Lilianas. A very terrifying build indeed but the mana curvature hurt it quite badly.

:eek:

So, personal opinion on factory is that it's not there as a win condition, it's there as a land that is also pseudo repetitive creature control. It basically blanks the first 2 2/3 or smaller creatures on its own and forces them to overcomit into whatever our plan is for the late game (buy us time to pick things off with cursed scroll for example.) if we are to remove factory, I would only advocate it for something like the second tabernacle, 2 drownyard temple, and a dust bowl, or second tabernacle and 3 cabal pit with a crucible. Even then, you're going to have a rough time killing people, because the abrupt decay decks are going to do everything they can to eat spirit with deathrites and kill your scrolls already, so you need an alternative kill condition, such as the bloodghast/lingering souls package in the b/w lists that do well in Japan from time to time.
I personally wouldn't trim nether void from pox. If you really want, go ahead andmputnitnin the board, but it's too valuable vs shardless, delver, miracles, bug leovold, elves, storm, sneak and show/omnitell, and enchantress to really be viable to cut unless you see none of those decks locally. I think that 22 land is very light, especially if you are asking about big pox. I think that crucible is a very potent card, and have recently been impressed with a singleton cabal pit, so if you're in the mood to not wreck your spell density but keep your land count up, you can consider that. I don't really like the second nether spirit unless you're running a couple murderous cut to clear one out of your graveyard in case of emergency, since I kept finding myself in awkward positions around having the second one in my hand when I wanted to cast smallpox or activate Liliana.
Ob nix feels like a sideboard card to me, not a main kill con. He's just a way to burry the late game decks. The Liliana the last hope is not for te main, she's a sideboard, and usually comes in when you want to consider boarding veil out or expect veil to get countered anyways. Personally, I feel like the meta has hit a point where a second abyss is very valuable and the tabernacle more than pulls it's weight, whether you can tutor for it or not.

One of my buddies recommended Yahenni's Expertise as something that may be included in Pox. Definitely a card advantage spell, and even without an extra spell in your hand, it's still an effective sweeper against armies that aren't 4 toughness. Kind of like a Mutilate with benefits :confused: For instance, cast this, then a Big Pox or even an Innocent Blood to kill whatever's left over.

At 4 cmc, I'm thinking 2 in the 75 at best. Having a Liliana hit the field after you clear it sounds zexy.

I've thought about it, but so many games I'm jamming off 2 lands, as soon as I find a third I'm casting Smallpox to maintain control.
I'll struggle to keep 3 around long enough to cast Lilliana, don't even get me started about playing around Daze.
In a world where I have 4 lands enough that this is a live card more often than it's dead, it's a strong contender.