And how is one supposed to manage gy.decks without gy hate?Quote:
Originally Posted by Citrus-God
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And how is one supposed to manage gy.decks without gy hate?Quote:
Originally Posted by Citrus-God
I dropped my Relics out of the board for Path to Exile. 8 StP effects for Ichorid's (and Narcomoeba's) slows them down a ton. I also bring in Meddling Mage, to name Cabal Therapy, which also slows them down a ton.
PtE and Mage are good against other matchups as well, where Relic only ever comes in against Ichorid. There are no other graveyard strategies that require Relic. Counterbalance > Relic against Aggro Loam, for example.
:really:
Off the top of my head, some things Relic is a good SB card against:
-Ichorid (as previously stated)
-anything with Goyf
-anything with IGG
-Ceph Breakfast
-dredge.dec
-Cabal Therapy/other Flashback cards
-Unearth (Hellspark Elemental?)
-the newly unbanned Entomb
-recursion effects like Academy Ruins, Volrath's Stronghold, Crucible of Worlds
-the list goes on.
Anyway I think its foolish to not run ANY gy hate in the SB. I mean, theres PLENTY of effective anti-GY hate in Legacy, not to mention the myriad of gy.decks there are in Legacy right now. Why not run anti-gy hate unless you NEVER ever face gy.decks?
And my god, Im getting pretty dern sick of hearing so much about Counterbalance.
Depending on what build I play (classic UWx landstill, uwb speedstill, UWr) I board in relic in the mirror match, against ant, combo in general (if playing sculler), black based (to avoid extirpate), aggroloam (not sure if cb is far superior here), stax, astral slide, survival,and obviously ichorid. If I run black I also run 3/4 sb plagues and 5/7 MD stp effects (i play no wrath), no cb and no MM (if not playing classic UWx), and I never felt relic was not needed. The same is true for UWr with sb cb. How do you guys feel without gy hate?
Counterbalance.Quote:
Originally Posted by gustha
And if you're concerned about Ichorid, you're better off just losing that round rather than just dedicating sideboard slots for it. Also, I agree with Hanni, Path to Exiles are alright against Ichorid as well..
Also, tech against Ichorid: Wasteland + Factory to remove bridges is sweet tech. Just sayin'.
The most important slot for CB to hit in the combo matchup is 1cc, and relic fills that while helping by shutting off IGG. It even cantrips in that matchup if it's gonna be useless which is something you can't say for STP or other removal which may or may not be useful. IN THEORY it should work, but it's been less than a day since I made the switch and I haven't had time to test it. Just out of curiosity though, why is everyone debating this now? Moss has run relics in every list since forever.
@Citrus: It's not going to be a great matchup but if you can run other things in addition to the STP/whatever effects you're relying on while complimenting other matchups, why not?
In my testing, 0cc was always the best spot for CB to hit, which is rather cool when you run lots of lands (23 in my build).
Well... right, but other than that you can't expect to hit 2cc consistently so if you can shut off 1cc and 0cc with SDT+CB you're in damn good shape.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
Yes, but if you hit 0cc or 2cc, you should also be in good shape in that match up.Quote:
Originally Posted by rsaunder
Also, I understand Relic being good and all, but it's nothing short of amazing for most match ups. When you could board something better in, you board in Relic.
Because there are greater concerns, like Zoo boarding in Chokes, PoPs, Shushers. Like, if you're concerned with Aggro Loam, why would you board Relics in when you could board in BEB? BEB is also amazing against Zoo and Goblins.Quote:
@Citrus: It's not going to be a great matchup but if you can run other things in addition to the STP/whatever effects you're relying on while complimenting other matchups, why not?
If you're concerned about Ichorid.... I say just rely on tight play to get yourself out of that match up.
Relic is cool in the fact that it can come in for dead cards in matchups where Relic can at least be a cantrip. Otherwise, there's no graveyard strategies besides Ichorid that I bring it in against. Counterbalance shuts down Loam much more effectively. Against Goyf's, I'd sooner board in Path to Exile. Against Survival, I'd bring in extra Oblivion Rings (or Vindicate if I was in black). Seriously, the only matchup Relic is worth bringing in for as graveyard hate is Ichorid, where we have more versatile options to bring in vs them (again, I bring in Path to Exile and Meddling Mage). But hey, that's just my perception on the issue.
Ok, I played two tournaments lately. One went 2-1-3, what would be 5-1 if the rounds were 2 hours.. This drawstreak inspired me to make the deck faster, with Wastelands and a third Elspeth. I played this list to a 5-1-1 finish (ID in the last round) yesterday. 85 people showed up, so it was a pretty big tournament.
4 Strand
2 Delta
4 Tundra
1 Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Island
2 Plains
4 Factory
3 Wasteland
4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
2 Wish
2 Top
4 Force of Will
3 CS
3 SSnare
4 StP
3 EE
2 WoG
1 Moat
1 Dragon
1 Decree
3 Elspeth
2 Jace
SB
3 Relic
3 Path to Exile
4 Engineered Plague
1 Return to Dust
1 Pulse
1 Extirpate
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Crucible of Worlds
Brief write-up:
R1: 2-0 against Agroloam, managed to manascrew him G1, G2 the Relics did all the work. G1 very funny board: 5 land and an Elspeth against completely nothing.
R2: 2-0 against ANT. Yes, it IS possible.
R3: 0-2 against ANT. Teammate, better player, the matchup as it should be.
R4: 2-0 against Angel stax. Again, manascrewed him G1, and rode to victory on the back of an Elspeth in game 2.
R5: 2-0 against GW Creature.deck. Fairly easy, Elspeth was great, as ever.
R6: 2-0 against Dreadstill. Elspeth > Dreadstilll, nuff said.
R7: ID against Goblins.
Q: 0-2 against Goblins. Played standstill over 1 fanatic, and had to break it, two turns too late. Playerror. Game two, I gambled on the following hand: Plague, Moat, Counterspell, Elspeth, Crucible and 2 lands. He duressed Plague away, and I never reached WW. Luckely for him, because he had no answers to a Moat.
Cards of the day: double Jace, triple Elspeth and triple Wasteland. Better than I thought they would be!
For now, I wouldn't change a thing to either Main- or Sideboard, though I'll be testing some CB Landstill. Questions? Shoot!
Congrats :D Looks like a pretty solid list, except for the fact I'd play -1 factory +1 ruins. I still don't like the CB/top approach but meh :/
Also, on relic, don't forget it bends canadian thresh over and violates it since it keeps all their 'threats' 1/1 and 0/1
I could write a detailed explanation why I think it's perfect in Landstill and why I think it's so powerful. At the end of the day though, those that are willing to run it will and those that won't, well, won't.Quote:
I still don't like the CB/top approach but meh :/
My U/W Counterbalance Landstill list already bends Canadian Thresh over. I never brought Relic in for this matchup. However, I've not tested this matchup with other versions of Landstill, so it may be the case that those versions don't, and that Relic is house against them. I honestly don't know.Quote:
Also, on relic, don't forget it bends canadian thresh over and violates it since it keeps all their 'threats' 1/1 and 0/1
Just out of curiosity, what does mage chant against ichorid? I wouldn't think to bring them in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
EDIT: Also, I've never been worried about the tempo thresh matchup. It takes some tight play early on, but you play enough land to make their wastes not hurt too much and SDT helps with land drops. It's not an auto-win, but it's definitely favorable.
It's not only good against c. thresh, it's also a house vs any sligh/zoo list with lavamancers since it both shrinks goyfs and makes their mancers worthless, loam for obvious reasons and more random shit as well.
I run 2 in my side, personally, and I've always been glad to have it around :)
I replace dead cards with them. They chant Cabal Therapy, so they lose a sac outlet for Zombie tokens (slowing them down) and also so they can't rape my hand. They also sit on the table preventing Ichorid's from swinging in for fear of losing their Bridges. It's not the best option, but since they're already in my board and they do slow them down, I bring them in.Quote:
Just out of curiosity, what does mage chant against ichorid? I wouldn't think to bring them in.
I'd rather have Counterbalance for Goyf Sligh and Path to Exile for Zoo.Quote:
It's not only good against c. thresh, it's also a house vs any sligh/zoo list with lavamancers since it both shrinks goyfs and makes their mancers worthless, loam for obvious reasons and more random shit as well.
Why would you board Relics in? It doesnt do anything against Burn, just good against Mancers (which are weak against you) and Goyf (which everything in your deck kills).
Since i'm not running top my gut feeling tells me its better that i run cop red over cb against sligh, plus its helpful against goblins too
that may be true, but in fact it isnīt since you just have to run top(best card etc.). sorry dude :cry:
I've got a few minutes in between class right now, so I thought I'd toss these ideas up for some brainstorming. I posted a list with vindicate and top a page or so back after my tournament report and I've been working with that a bit. I'm not 100% sold on vindicate, but I feel like that's completely a meta concern. Before I start with variants, I'm just going to toss up the base list I'll be working with, so I don't have to post multiple complete lists:
Base deck:
3 Spell Snare
4 FOW
2 counterspell
3 standstill
2 SDT
2 FoF
3 brainstorm
3 WoG
4 STP
2 EE
2 DoJ
2 Elspeth
23 land=55 slots spoken for
My first thought was simply a vindicate-still list, the above with
3 vindicate
1 SDT
1 Spell Snare
Probably geared more towards control and combo, because of vindicate. After playing last weekend though, I think in certain metagames (coughZOOcough) P2E disserves a couple MB slots. Thus, I've been working with this build geared more towords an aggro metagame:
2 P2E
1 EE
1 SDT
1 spell snare
My other thoughts involve what pieces of the MB are necessary to work with the SB, namely SDT. CB+Top is great combo hate when it gets online, but when it doesn't CB's useless by it's self. The combo player will bait it and as soon as you have a 3cc or something equally useless on top they'll go off. It's good, but it's not infallable. Even when it's out it takes some mana to keep up and doesn't provide a clock. I'm of the frame of mind that hate bears might make the cut over CB, just because of the clock they provide. Thus, SDT isn't an auto 3-of or an auto 2-of yet imo. Especially with the "aggro geared" removal package, the SB for a build like this is wide open, possibly fitting in 6+slots for combo hate if you expect to see a lot of it.
Before I have to go to sociology, I've been running this manabase:
3 strand
3 delta
4 tundra
1 sea
1 scrub
1 swamp
3 island
3 plains
4 factory
7 basics seems to be >format right now, and honestly factory's been the most consistently "worthwhile" colorless land in the deck. This is sort of an experimental manabase to work with the vindicate package, chances are that if I were to cut them, the swamp would go with. I really like how consistently I can pull basics so far and how the 4 factories are working, I haven't missed the utility lands all that much in any matchup aside from the occasional merfolk matchup where a dust bowl might have taken out 2+ mutavaults. Uncommon, but it's come up.
Anyway, I have class so I'll cut this off here. Thoughts?