[Deck] Death and Taxes

So I tested a list similar to freak's yesterday:

4x Mom
4x Thalia
4x Imperial Recruiter
3x Flickerwisp
3x SFM
2x Phyrexian revoker
2x Magus
1x Mirran Crusader
1x Mangara
1x Fiend Hunter
1x Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1x Vryn Wingmare

4x STP
4x Vial
1x Sword of fire and ice
1x Jitte

4x Fetch
4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port
3x Karakas
3x Plains
3x Cavern of Souls
2x Plateau

sb:
2x RIP
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Restoration Angel
2x Mirran Crusader
1x Cunning Sparkmage
1x Containment Priest
1x Leonin Relic-Warder
1x Faerie Macabre
1x Fiendslayer Paladin
1x Manic Vandal
1x Path to Exile

Played this at a small GPT and had a weird set of matches, zero counterspell decks - I lost to Tin Fins x2 on turn 1, Beat Painter, Colorless Eldrazi and Enchantress pretty easily and lost a close one to Displacer Eldrazi. Had a maybe-punt in that I tried to cut him off mana instead of eating his Chalice w/ Mangara-lock and got Warping Wailed, then drew into STPs. Lost g3 because I had to burn a Cavern on Relic Warder to eat a Chalice and had a vial on 2 / 2 Recruiters in hand but no red. God how I wish there were a human Relic Warder.

Gonna play this list again tonight at my local. 2 Restos is almost definitely wrong since I don't think this deck can support 3 4 drops, but I want to test them and I liked the idea of just transforming this into a crazy value deck with all the ETB effects and card advantage for fair matchups where they bring in good D+T hate. I sided them in for every matchup but Tin Fins, but never drew them. Tutored for Fiend Hunter and Mangara pretty constantly. There was one game where Banisher Priest woulda been better than Fiend Hunter (got Warping Wailed) and another game where Fiend Hunter was holding back a 2/2.

Never wanted a Batterskull, every time I coulda theoretically snuck one into play my SfM was killed on the spot. Won a game vs Eldrazi with Pia/Kiran outracing them, still not convinced they need to be main but it is nice to have a 'I need a late game bomb' type target, especially with Batterskull gone. I think they are probably pretty equivalent actually, tutorable attrition cards that are very strong when you can cheat them into play but also get stuck in your hand.

Ran the above list with a Kor Skyfisher replacing Mirran Crusader main and 4-0'd. Kor Skyfisher was great with 4 Recruiters, I highly recommend Imperial players test with it. Was always happy to see it. Still not sure about the Pia/Kiran main and I have seen a Resto exactly once over 7 matches (the price of playing non-tutor targets), but I really like everything else.

Burn 2-0
Returning player to the game playing an unoptimized list and I had pretty good hands, though g2 I kept a Vial-dependent hand that woulda lost to a Smash, and he brought in plenty of them.

Eldrazi 2-1

G1 have a strong Vial Recruiter Recruiter Skyfisher hand and I'm on the play. He has T1 Chalice, T2 TKS, has to take the Skyfisher since otherwise the card is just a 2/3 flyer with a Recruiter trigger. Has a Dismember for the Magus I get, and gets Displacer+TKS online pretty quickly because he had a million Sol lands. I blind named the wrong thing (not Displacer) with my Revoker cause I didn't know he was on Displacer, but it didn't really matter in the end because he had a Warping Wail. Still coulda won if I drew into Flickerwisps, but I drew mostly 1 drops.

G2 Keep 1 land Vial Vial Magus/Recruiter/Skyfisher etc. and Magus him out pretty quickly. He gets a Pithing Needle a few turns after it woulda mattered.

G3 Close game, I start out with STP/Path, but he actually started playing a basic Wastes to get off my Path, so I can't just Magus him. He gets a Batterskull out + Reality Smasher, I first Recruiter for Relic Warder for the skull but he has removal, then tutor for Manic Vandal - he can bounce it, but isn't gaining life and is taking a lot off tomb, lastly tutor for Fiend Hunter for the Germ token and Revoker the Skull. He eventually attacks me down to 3 with Smasher and I throw a bunch of dudes in front of it so I don't die to even Warping Wail, then win on the swingback.

Reanimator 2-1

G1 Mull a hand of Karakas, Port, Port, Fetch, Plains, some other land, Magus. It has the-best-card and I know I'm playing against Reanimator but I obviously can't cast Magus and I have zero clock. I do have Ports and I can hope he just goes all in on a legendary target, but if he goes all in on Griselbrand, draws a bunch and I'm just durdling with actually 0 pressure, he'll probably be able to draw into an Entomb + cantrips for a better hand while I'm sitting around waiting to die. Anyway, I mull into something mediocre and he gets t2 Griselbrand and wrecks me. It's possible I shoulda kept.

G2 I'm on the play and have Stp/Path/Recruiter, he gets an Iona in his GY t2 but can't reanimate it, I cast Recruiter and it resolves - get Faerie Macabre. This makes his life really difficult. He eventually gets Iona+Grave Titan+Griselbrand in the yard, goes to Reanimate GT and I exile it and Iona. Eventually he gets a Griselbrand out but goes to 1 life and almost no cards and I have a Fiend Hunter for it, attack with my Recruiter for the final damage. Not sure how I ever played this deck without Fiend Hunter.

G3 Goes all in on a t1 Griselbrand, I go all in on 'have a Karakas.'

UR Delver (Snapcaster/TNN version.) (2-0)
G1 I have a Cavern hand, eventually he realizes his SB got mixed in when he sees a Red Blast and has to scoop. Game was pretty even, we were both low on resources but hadn't taken much damage. I had a Mom + Recruiter in hand, he had an unflipped Delver.
G2 Keep Karakas, Karakas, Thalia, SFM, Recruiter, STP, Path on the draw. I figure I have a lot of time to draw into lands with two removal spells and can beat one Wasteland. Draw a Cavern, which is perfect. Recruiter for Fiendslayer Paladin, which keeps him from attacking with his TNN since I can outrace him. He has a Sulfur Elemental which eats a Mom but mostly pumps my dudes, I have Kor Skyfisher + eventually an unnecessary Resto Angel and am always pretty far ahead.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by iatee

Ran the above list with a Kor Skyfisher replacing Mirran Crusader main and 4-0'd. Kor Skyfisher was great with 4 Recruiters, I highly recommend Imperial players test with it. Was always happy to see it. Still not sure about the Pia/Kiran main and I have seen a Resto exactly once over 7 matches (the price of playing non-tutor targets), but I really like everything else.

Burn 2-0
Returning player to the game playing an unoptimized list and I had pretty good hands, though g2 I kept a Vial-dependent hand that woulda lost to a Smash, and he brought in plenty of them.

Eldrazi 2-1

G1 have a strong Vial Recruiter Recruiter Skyfisher hand and I'm on the play. He has T1 Chalice, T2 TKS, has to take the Skyfisher since otherwise the card is just a 2/3 flyer with a Recruiter trigger. Has a Dismember for the Magus I get, and gets Displacer+TKS online pretty quickly because he had a million Sol lands. I blind named the wrong thing (not Displacer) with my Revoker cause I didn't know he was on Displacer, but it didn't really matter in the end because he had a Warping Wail. Still coulda won if I drew into Flickerwisps, but I drew mostly 1 drops.

G2 Keep 1 land Vial Vial Magus/Recruiter/Skyfisher etc. and Magus him out pretty quickly. He gets a Pithing Needle a few turns after it woulda mattered.

G3 Close game, I start out with STP/Path, but he actually started playing a basic Waste so I can't just Magus him out early. He gets a Batterskull out + Reality Smasher, I first Recruiter for Relic Warder for the skull but he has removal, then tutor for Manic Vandal - he can bounce it, but isn't gaining life and is taking a lot off tomb, lastly tutor for Fiend Hunter for the Skull. He eventually attacks me with Smasher and I throw a bunch of dudes in front of it so I don't die to even Warping Wail, then win on the swingback.

Reanimator 2-1

G1 Mull a hand of Karakas, Port, Port, Fetch, Plains, some other land, Magus. It has the-best-card and I know I'm playing against Reanimator but I obviously can't cast Magus and I have zero clock. I do have Ports and I can hope he just goes all in on a legendary target, but if he goes all in on Griselbrand, draws a bunch and I'm just durdling with actually 0 pressure, he'll probably be able to draw into an Entomb + cantrips for a better hand while I'm sitting around waiting to die. Anyway, I mull into something mediocre and he gets t2 Griselbrand and wrecks me. It's possible I shoulda kept.

G2 I'm on the play and have Stp/Path/Recruiter, he gets an Iona in his GY t2 but can't reanimate it, I cast Recruiter and it resolves - get Faerie Macabre. This makes his life really difficult. He eventually gets Iona+Grave Titan+Griselbrand in the yard, goes to Reanimate GT and I exile it and Iona. Eventually he gets a Griselbrand out but goes to 1 life and almost no cards and I have a Fiend Hunter for it, attack with my Recruiter for the final damage. Not sure how I ever played this deck without Fiend Hunter.

G3 Goes all in on a t1 Griselbrand, I go all in on 'have a Karakas.'

UR Delver (Snapcaster/TNN version.) (2-0)
G1 I have a Cavern hand, eventually he realizes his SB got mixed in when he sees a Red Blast and has to scoop. Game was pretty even, we were both low on resources but hadn't taken much damage. I had a Mom + Recruiter in hand, he had an unflipped Delver.
G2 Keep Karakas, Karakas, Thalia, SFM, Recruiter, STP, Path on the draw. I figure I have a lot of time to draw into lands with two removal spells. Draw a Cavern, which is perfect. Recruiter for Fiendslayer Paladin, which keeps him from attacking with his TNN since I can outrace him. He has a Sulfur Elemental which eats a Mom, but I have Kor Skyfisher + eventually an unnecessary Resto Angel and am always pretty far ahead.

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Great to read about your test with the deck! I have been a firm supporter of the anti Fiend association from the start, the card is just so good. I also like the skyfisher, have been wondering if the card is playable in main.

I'm going to replace Pia and Kiran Nalaar with the fourth recruiter and try with that. Also the faerie and vandal in the sideboard is interesting. The restos are a nogo for me, as you said, the four drops are just too heavy in multiples.

How do you see infect, robots or elves MUs? Did you have a known meta so you didn't have to prepare for the as much? I am trying to fix my 75 as I would ply it in the GP Prague in June, so I have to prepare against those. I really would like some kind of sweeper like Ratchet Bomb or Sudden Demise, but I'm wondering if with four recruiters there is an tutorable alternatives.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by freakreature

Great to read about your test with the deck! I have been a firm supporter of the anti Fiend association from the start, the card is just so good. I also like the skyfisher, have been wondering if the card is playable in main.
I'm going to replace Pia and Kiran Nalaar with the fourth recruiter and try with that. Also the faerie and vandal in the sideboard is interesting. The restos are a nogo for me, as you said, the four drops are just too heavy in multiples.
How do you see infect, robots or elves MUs? Did you have a known meta so you didn't have to prepare for the as much? I am trying to fix my 75 as I would ply it in the GP Prague in June, so I have to prepare against those. I really would like some kind of sweeper like Ratchet Bomb or Sudden Demise, but I'm wondering if with four recruiters there is an tutorable alternatives.

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Yeah the NYC meta is pretty known and there isn't a lot of Elves, lucky for me. I expect to play against Infect a decent amount though. I think my current board is okay against Infect, I feel like playing a Path to Exile helps a lot, and if you really want to beat Infect you can play one more. If you can live long enough to get a pinger out, the game is just over, and unlike Jitte they don't typically have ways to deal with it. Pinger is really the only target you need for Infect, though if you want to go deep you could play a Standard Bearer, Spellskite or even Melira. It's still an overall bad matchup because your g1 % is pretty low, especially if you're on the draw, and this build is going down on SfM/Canonists, which make it worse, but I don't feel like it's unwinnable and I've won my last 4 recent competitive REL tournament matches vs Infect off my pingers.

I have literally never played against legacy Affinity, and I don't think it's worth worrying about.

Elves is definitely worse without Sudden Demise, but Elves isn't super popular at the moment and I don't think the card is applicable to enough other matches to wreck your SB for it. As you go up on Recruiters having a wishboard becomes more and more important and the opportunity cost of each SB slot is really high since each targeted 1-of is now a 5-of. That's why I really don't want to include any non-creature unless it has absolutely no equivalent on a creature (e.g. Rest in Peace.)

Some options for tutorable sweeper cards that I've looked at:
Orzhov Pontiff - Requires black
Minister of Pain - Requires black
Bloodfire Dwarf - Very fast but requires hard-red early
Martyr of Ashes - This would actually be fantastic if the deck had a lot more red, but I couldn't make the numbers work to make this viable.
Fire Ants - Pretty slow
Scalding Salamander - Pretty slow
Goblin Sharpshooter - Pretty slow

Truthfully, vs these decks the right thing to do is probably just play a 4th SfM (maybe in the board) or more Ethersworn Canonists, since those are very good cards that you want in your opening hand and unlike say, Bloodfire Dwarf, they also have application across a lot of legacy.

Friends,

I have a thought exercise I'd like to run by the board. I'm not sure there is a right answer for these, but there may be. The goal is to foster some creative discussion around possible plays.

Scenario - Protect the Pithing Needle
You are playing against Imperial Painter and successfully named Grindstone with Pithing Needle.
Your opponent casts an engineered explosives on 1.
Opponent does not have enough mana to kill you and passes the turn. You suspect they will pop Engineered Explosives on your end step for the kill on their next turn.
How do you win? Do you have any outs, or is this game over? Can you protect the Pithing Needle, do you have to?

Version A:

You
---
Life: 20
Board: Aether Vial (on 3). Pithing Needle (naming Grindstone). Thalia, Serra Avenger
Lands: Plains, Plains, Port, Horizon Canopy
Your Hand: Pithing Needle, Flickerwisp, Batterskull

Opponent
--------
life: 10
Board: Painter's Servant (on blue), Grindstone, Engineered Explosives (on 1)
Lands: 2 untapped Plateau, 2 tapped mountains (just used to cast the Engineered Explosives)
Hand: 3 cards.


Version B:

You
---
Life: 20
Board: Aether Vial (on 3). Pithing Needle (naming Grindstone). Mother of Runes, Serra Avenger,
Lands: Plains, Plains, Port, Horizon Canopy
Your Hand: Pithing Needle, Flickerwisp, Batterskull

Opponent
--------
life: 10
Board: Painter's Servant (on blue), Grindstone, Engineered Explosives (on 1)
Lands: 2 untapped Plateau, 1 untapped Mountain, 2 tapped mountains (just used to cast the Engineered Explosives)
Hand: 3 cards.

Version C:

You
---
Life: 20
Board: Aether Vial (on 3). Pithing Needle (naming Grindstone). Thalia, Serra Avenger
Lands: Plains, Plains, Port, Horizon Canopy
Your Hand: Flickerwisp, Batterskull

Opponent
--------
life: 10
Board: Painter's Servant (on blue), Grindstone, Engineered Explosives (on 1)
Lands: 2 untapped Plateau, 2 tapped mountains (just used to cast the Engineered Explosives)
Hand: 3 cards.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TokenSoldier

Friends,

I have a thought exercise I'd like to run by the board. I'm not sure there is a right answer for these, but there may be. The goal is to foster some creative discussion around possible plays.

Scenario - Protect the Pithing Needle
You are playing against Imperial Painter and successfully named Grindstone with Pithing Needle.
Your opponent casts an engineered explosives on 1.
Opponent does not have enough mana to kill you and passes the turn. You suspect they will pop Engineered Explosives on your end step for the kill on their next turn.
How do you win? Do you have any outs, or is this game over? Can you protect the Pithing Needle, do you have to?

Version A:

You
---
Life: 20
Board: Aether Vial (on 3). Pithing Needle (naming Grindstone). Thalia, Serra Avenger
Lands: Plains, Plains, Port, Horizon Canopy
Your Hand: Pithing Needle, Flickerwisp, Batterskull

Opponent
--------
life: 10
Board: Painter's Servant (on blue), Grindstone, Engineered Explosives (on 1)
Lands: 2 untapped Plateau, 2 tapped mountains (just used to cast the Engineered Explosives)
Hand: 3 cards.


Version B:

You
---
Life: 20
Board: Aether Vial (on 3). Pithing Needle (naming Grindstone). Mother of Runes, Serra Avenger,
Lands: Plains, Plains, Port, Horizon Canopy
Your Hand: Pithing Needle, Flickerwisp, Batterskull

Opponent
--------
life: 10
Board: Painter's Servant (on blue), Grindstone, Engineered Explosives (on 1)
Lands: 2 untapped Plateau, 1 untapped Mountain, 2 tapped mountains (just used to cast the Engineered Explosives)
Hand: 3 cards.

Version C:

You
---
Life: 20
Board: Aether Vial (on 3). Pithing Needle (naming Grindstone). Thalia, Serra Avenger
Lands: Plains, Plains, Port, Horizon Canopy
Your Hand: Flickerwisp, Batterskull

Opponent
--------
life: 10
Board: Painter's Servant (on blue), Grindstone, Engineered Explosives (on 1)
Lands: 2 untapped Plateau, 2 tapped mountains (just used to cast the Engineered Explosives)
Hand: 3 cards.

---

I would flicker the needle in response for the EE, because they will crack their own grindstone also with our vial. If they have another stone in their hand, you have a port to keep them in 3 mana and can hope to race them before they get another stone + pyroblast/REB to get rid of your needle again.

Isn't Eldrazi Displacer better than Kor Skyfisher and Restoration Angel for value? It has the added benefit of blinking opposing creatures as well as comboing with Containment Priest and it can blink repeatably.

Skyfisher can be tutored by Recruiter, so you can basically get a free 2/3 flying whenever you have the open mana. It also helps shore up the lack of flyers and can trade with a Delver in a pinch.

Displacer + Recruiter is obviously insane if you have them both and it's an empty board, and I might try to test one for a while, but you do have to luck your way into that situation because you can't tutor for it. It also dies to pretty much all removal whereas Resto combines the value game w/ being immune to most legacy non-white removal. The goal is to have something even stronger than Pia/Kiran for a grindy fair removal-heavy matchup where you expect to face serious D+T hate - but whatever that something is it probably should be tutorable. If Resto were a 2/4 it would be insane in this deck, as you could also just toss a one of Kiki and have a two turn win completely off of a Vial on 3 + Recruiter.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TokenSoldier

Friends,

I have a thought exercise I'd like to run by the board. I'm not sure there is a right answer for these, but there may be. The goal is to foster some creative discussion around possible plays.

Scenario - Protect the Pithing Needle
You are playing against Imperial Painter and successfully named Grindstone with Pithing Needle.
Your opponent casts an engineered explosives on 1.
Opponent does not have enough mana to kill you and passes the turn. You suspect they will pop Engineered Explosives on your end step for the kill on their next turn.
How do you win? Do you have any outs, or is this game over? Can you protect the Pithing Needle, do you have to?

Version A:

You
---
Life: 20
Board: Aether Vial (on 3). Pithing Needle (naming Grindstone). Thalia, Serra Avenger
Lands: Plains, Plains, Port, Horizon Canopy
Your Hand: Pithing Needle, Flickerwisp, Batterskull

Opponent
--------
life: 10
Board: Painter's Servant (on blue), Grindstone, Engineered Explosives (on 1)
Lands: 2 untapped Plateau, 2 tapped mountains (just used to cast the Engineered Explosives)
Hand: 3 cards.

---

Why did our opponent tap 2 lands to play and EE for 1? He can play it for 1 mana, because Sunburst.

Anyway, there are two lines:

You use Aether Vial to sneak in Flickerwisp EOT and force him to pop EE (which you'd reset to 0 with Flickerwisp otherwise), then play your 2nd Needle in one of your main phases (naming Grindstone) and swing for 6. If you then use Rishadan Port in his upkeep, you can only lose if his hand has REB, Grindstone, Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors and Simian Spirit Guide after topdeck. And you'll have him dead the turn after.

The other line would be to save up the Flickerwisp, swing for 3 and play your 2nd Needle and see what happens. If he pops EE in response, this means you'll be able to Flicker the Needle and then have two Needles. If he lets the Needle resolve, you'll have to name EE obv. But this on the other hand means that he must have a REB to destroy the Needle on Grindstone EOT. If he tries that, you use Flickerwisp on Painter so that the REB/Pyro won't destroy the Needle. So in this case, you basically lose against a hand that could be REB REB land, no topdeck needed for the opponent and you give him one more turn to topdeck a REB.

Quote:

---

Version B:

You
---
Life: 20
Board: Aether Vial (on 3). Pithing Needle (naming Grindstone). Mother of Runes, Serra Avenger,
Lands: Plains, Plains, Port, Horizon Canopy
Your Hand: Pithing Needle, Flickerwisp, Batterskull

Opponent
--------
life: 10
Board: Painter's Servant (on blue), Grindstone, Engineered Explosives (on 1)
Lands: 2 untapped Plateau, 1 untapped Mountain, 2 tapped mountains (just used to cast the Engineered Explosives)
Hand: 3 cards.

---

I think this plays out just like Version A, only that you're dead against a couple more things due to the lack of Thalia. In this case I'd probably go for the EOT Flickerwisp on EE too.

Quote:

---

Version C:

You
---
Life: 20
Board: Aether Vial (on 3). Pithing Needle (naming Grindstone). Thalia, Serra Avenger
Lands: Plains, Plains, Port, Horizon Canopy
Your Hand: Flickerwisp, Batterskull

Opponent
--------
life: 10
Board: Painter's Servant (on blue), Grindstone, Engineered Explosives (on 1)
Lands: 2 untapped Plateau, 2 tapped mountains (just used to cast the Engineered Explosives)
Hand: 3 cards.

---

EOT Flickerwisp on EE and hope he doesn't topdeck another Grindstone.

Using Rishadan Port in every line is mandatory (except for version B maybe, if he doesn't pop EE you could think about cracking Horizon Canopy in hope to cycle into a Revoker that you can protect with MoR).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TokenSoldier

Version A:

You
---
Life: 20
Board: Aether Vial (on 3). Pithing Needle (naming Grindstone). Thalia, Serra Avenger
Lands: Plains, Plains, Port, Horizon Canopy
Your Hand: Pithing Needle, Flickerwisp, Batterskull

Opponent
--------
life: 10
Board: Painter's Servant (on blue), Grindstone, Engineered Explosives (on 1)
Lands: 2 untapped Plateau, 2 tapped mountains (just used to cast the Engineered Explosives)
Hand: 3 cards.


Version B:

You
---
Life: 20
Board: Aether Vial (on 3). Pithing Needle (naming Grindstone). Mother of Runes, Serra Avenger,
Lands: Plains, Plains, Port, Horizon Canopy
Your Hand: Pithing Needle, Flickerwisp, Batterskull

Opponent
--------
life: 10
Board: Painter's Servant (on blue), Grindstone, Engineered Explosives (on 1)
Lands: 2 untapped Plateau, 1 untapped Mountain, 2 tapped mountains (just used to cast the Engineered Explosives)
Hand: 3 cards.

Version C:

You
---
Life: 20
Board: Aether Vial (on 3). Pithing Needle (naming Grindstone). Thalia, Serra Avenger
Lands: Plains, Plains, Port, Horizon Canopy
Your Hand: Flickerwisp, Batterskull

Opponent
--------
life: 10
Board: Painter's Servant (on blue), Grindstone, Engineered Explosives (on 1)
Lands: 2 untapped Plateau, 2 tapped mountains (just used to cast the Engineered Explosives)
Hand: 3 cards.

---

Doe the most part I agree with Adan, though I would also want to take into consideration what turn it it (get an idea of Library size), if I've used any Wastelands, pretty much know the graveyard too because that could very well influence my line of play.

So we're having a bit of a debate in the Infect forum on how Death and Taxes should board against us, specifically whether or not Thalia should stay in. What are your guys thoughts on this?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jesture

So we're having a bit of a debate in the Infect forum on how Death and Taxes should board against us, specifically whether or not Thalia should stay in. What are your guys thoughts on this?

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As a player of both, Thalia definitely stays in. It's not easy getting 3 mana to invigorate + berserk, and an extra two to have vines protection as well.

3 mana is pretty easy for Infect to get to. Noble Hierarch + two lands. You don't need an extra 2 for Vines protection when DnT can't hold up or even bluff StP anymore. I've improved my win % vs Infect by boarding out Thalias and playing at least one Path and I think people should at least try it. I've won games off Thalia, but I've also lost a ton.

Infect is great at combo wins when the opponent taps out and Thalia just helps them do that better and can even make their soft countermagic more effective.

Well I think Thalia is really important in the matchup and I don't see myself siding them out. I always take out some Revoker and Flickerwisp when I don't cut all of them, it depends on the build. We usually bring in 1/2 Needle, all of our Canonist and spot removal if any (Dismember, PtE, Sunlance, Gut Shot...). For Imperial Taxes I think it's the same adding the possibility of Goblin Sharpshooter or other creature of this kind and maybe a couple of Sudden Demise.

Personally I prefer Council's Judgment and sideboard Crusader over Revoker and Flickerwisp so actually I'm siding in 9 cards, because I side out Batterskull as well, following my thoughts about bad draws/dead cards playing this deck.

I'd advice you to hold Blighted Agent, which is your main win condition, and bet for a midrange game until you find some resources to follow up Agent, unless you have an explosive and solid win in hand to win quickly turn 2 or 3 obviously. Infect player has the main pro having his opponent scared, playing really carefully, chumpblocking all the time and definitely playing a bit suboptimally sometimes by this factor. Against D&T this is really important, you should play with this in your mind. On the other hand, I consider this matchup as an experience matchup. There is a big difference between the experienced player and the rest by both sides, by this I think if you're facing a good D&T player the matchup is 45%-55% in your favor or even 50%-50% with luck for us, otherwise you'll be in a lot of advantage.

Eh, I actually don't think experience matters much here. The games I lose tend to be pretty non-interactive. DnT just doesn't play a lot of creature interaction. If they have an Agent and we don't have a StP immediately, the game is usually over pretty quickly.

Imperial has a better matchup than Mono-W since it plays pingers post-board / has more consistency and Infect is a matchup that almost never will punish you for playing a second color, but even then I think it's probably more like 40-60 overall because g1 on the draw is so bad, especially if you don't know you're facing Infect.

Lol @iatee, I was kinda hoping to get some other people's opinions... not that there's anything wrong with yours, just that I already know where you stand on the issue.

Well, my interest here is convincing other DnT players, not convincing you.

I cut Mother of Runes versus Infect, but I was never sure if this was correct. Iatee's logic does make sense to me though. I own both Death & Taxes and Infect so I can test post-board games later.

The argument to take out Thalia becomes much stronger if you have three Canonist in your board. I think Canonist is better than Thalia against Infect anyway minus the drawback of getting hit by Krosan Grip.

Chiming in here as well.

When playing infect I sideboard to deal with Jitte first and Canonist second. Everything else is somewhat neglectable and even if it isn't, it doesn't require sb action. If I get to resolve Null Rod, I care very little about any creature afterwards and then Thalia only makes your best card cost twice the normal.

Against my boarding strategy Thalia is not very effective. The biggest impact comes from making krosan Grip nearly uncastable but I don't mind because it hurts StP as much as well.

No matter what, the long game favors d&t.

I agree Thalia isn't all that, but is it bad enough to require siding out? The slower equipment and Revokers are likely first targets for siding out.

Well it depends how much you have to side in. But Revokers aren't terrible, the upside might not be as high as Thalia's since they only hit Hierarch and they don't always have one in play - but they never actually cost you the game either.

Well I think I've never lost against Infect because of my own Thalia, and of course two winners plans don't bother guys, even less having a low quantity of effective resources against them and needing something early. If I cannot display both plans safely I'll keep untap for a posible StP if I feel that I could lose next turn, but obviously I won't play Thalia if I'm short on mana. I cannot understand this line of play facing maybe the most tempo matchup along the format. And of course, justify the plan because you'll bring at least 3 Canonist postboard seems like a joke. The guy who justified this should test the same plan against Storm or Burn because he'll bring Canonists as well, so he could play (and win) without Thalia easily...

I read a lot about Thalia by herself, but I read nothing about her supporting the rest of mana disruption. One side without the other is just not worth against Infect, don't forget guys, we need here as much mana denial as possible, and by this I use to keep in a couple of Revokers to follow up Wasteland, Port and Thalia, because here Thalia is much better than Revoker, not as someone told. I was stunned by what I read here [emoji54]

Hello everyone,

someone is working on the version with Eldrazi Displacer main?
I'd to hear some analysis!

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Originally Posted by benjiman13

Hello everyone,

someone is working on the version with Eldrazi Displacer main?
I'd to hear some analysis!

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Much better in the slower matchups such as Lands, Shardless Bug and Miracles. Also good vs. Eldrazi and the mirror. Fairly useless in the faster matchups and against combo but its a great in your flex spots should your meta warrant it. Put it in the stable with Mirran Crusader, Spirit of the Labyrinth, Aven Mindcensor, Brimaz, etc.

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Originally Posted by Koke_MTG

Well I think I've never lost against Infect because of my own Thalia, and of course two winners plans don't bother guys, even less having a low quantity of effective resources against them and needing something early. If I cannot display both plans safely I'll keep untap for a posible StP if I feel that I could lose next turn, but obviously I won't play Thalia if I'm short on mana.

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If you've been in games where you couldn't play Thalia because you were short on mana to hold up StP, then you have had games where Thalia was a bad card. The key is just to recognize those games when they happen. There are obviously games where Thalia is good vs Infect, the real question is what the good/bad ratio is - I don't think the ratio is great.

Thalia can randomly be bad in lots of fast matchups - e.g. just last night I lost a game to UR Delver because with a Thalia in play, I needed to draw a 4th land to both StP a creature and equip something to a creature for the win, and I didn't draw it. Thalia cost me the game, but that doesn't mean Thalia is a bad card in that matchup, obviously it is quite good overall - but let's not pretend like it can never be a card that ends up hurting you vs. fast decks. It is a drawback that's priced into playing a powerful card and it will happen a certain % of the time, the question is what the % is.

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Originally Posted by Koke_MTG

I cannot understand this line of play facing maybe the most tempo matchup along the format.

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Infect is not a pure tempo deck, so it's not the most tempo deck in the format - it's a tempo deck that threatens fast combo.

Vs pure tempo Delver decks we are generally fine as soon as we resolve a Vial or Thalia and can take some hits from a Delver or Goyf because so much of their hand is cantrips - Thalia slows the game and lets us catch up on board and eventually pull ahead. If we resolve a t1 Vial, maybe we're never actually behind on board. We don't need to hold up StP or Wasteland out of fear of dying out of nowhere, we've got a decent amount of turns to work with and a lot of blockers.

Vs Infect we don't have that breathing room. During those early turns, StP and Canonist are the only way to stop a fast combo on an Agent or Elf with trample. With a Thalia in play, Invigorate now costs 1 mana. Become Immense... still usually 1 mana. Berserk is now 2, and Vines' pump mode is now probably shut off at 3 - that's the only card that's meaningfully affected. But most of the combinations of those cards still don't require more than 2 mana (Invigorate+Invigorate = 2 mana, Invigorate+Immense = 2 mana, Invigorate+Berserk = 3 mana). When it comes to their combo hands, their curve is very, very low, even with a Thalia in play.

Thalia is good vs their slower, cantrip-heavy hands, where they look more like a Delver deck. But post-board, we should only be keeping hands that are very likely to beat those slower hands anyway.

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Originally Posted by Koke_MTG

And of course, justify the plan because you'll bring at least 3 Canonist postboard seems like a joke. The guy who justified this should test the same plan against Storm or Burn because he'll bring Canonists as well, so he could play (and win) without Thalia easily...

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Canonist and Thalia do very different things vs Storm and Burn.

Vs Storm Canonist and Thalia are both essentially win cons - they literally can't win with Canonist on board and rarely can with Thalia on board. (I'm sure we've all played this matchup enough to know that it's not impossible though.) Still - they are fairly equivalent for the most part. You just need one - but you absolutely need one, and once it's in play you just want to win ASAP and keep it on board.

Vs. Burn, Canonist only provides marginal value (sometimes works against us as a Smash target) but it's a 2 drop that might buy a turn and trades with most of their dudes. Thalia, on the other hand is fantastic - Burn does not have mana dorks, 0 mana spells or any way to smooth its land drops, so the tax is pretty oppressive. She also blocks very well, eating everything but Swiftspear. She preys on every aspect of their deck. So Canonist and Thalia are nowhere close to being equivalents here.

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Originally Posted by Koke_MTG

I read a lot about Thalia by herself, but I read nothing about her supporting the rest of mana disruption. One side without the other is just not worth against Infect, don't forget guys, we need here as much mana denial as possible, and by this I use to keep in a couple of Revokers to follow up Wasteland, Port and Thalia, because here Thalia is much better than Revoker, not as someone told. I was stunned by what I read here

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Thalia+Vial+Wasteland+Port is a great combination that wins a good % of DnT's games. That's because in those games we didn't have to cast non-creature spells or use or lands as mana. The mana denial plan takes away most of our mana too, but we get around that by avoiding non-creature spells and cheating mana from Aether Vial.

Infect is a matchup where we do want to cast spells and use our mana. The cards you are hoping to see in your opening hand are StP, SfM, Jitte, Canonist, Vial, Wasteland. Most of those are mana intensive. StP requires holding white up, Wasteland requires using a land drop, SfM, even if you cheat it into play, requires an activation cost and an equip cost. If you naturally draw Jitte, you need to have a creature in play, cast it, have it resolve and equip it - all of which is extremely mana intensive.

Anyway, I think more people should at least test this boarding strategy. If it is wrong to board Thalias out vs Infect, it is only wrong by a small margin, and if it is right, it is not right by an enormous margin either. But I have found myself winning more with my current boarding strategy than I did before and I do play this matchup quite a lot. Imperial might play slightly differently here than Mono-W and as I feel like I'm playing towards more and faster inevitabilities (Jitte + tutorable pinger) and their mana is pressured on another dimension by the threat of Magus. But I don't think any my arguments are particularly dependent on build.

Not to derail the infect discussion....

but... GP Columbus is 2 weeks away and I still need a deck!

DNT has been putting up okay results online (mostly monowhite of course) and from my experience playing paper Legacy at side-events at SCG and GPs over the past 6 months i feel like Eldrazi and Burn are going to be even more represented that in the online meta.

This makes me uncertain if I want to go back to the monowhite version or continue to play the imperial splash... I originally shifted to the red splash because I thought it would help me out vs. the lands/shardless decks... but I keep getting paired up against ur delver, uw miracles, monowhite taxes, and burn and the magus's have been dead. I had also experiemnted with skull in the side; but again at these paper events burn just seems to be over represented and that makes me want it back in the main.

RW hasn't put up as many results but that may just be as a result of it being underplayed (esp. with recruiters hard to come by in paper).

Given my estimation (which isn't neccessarily correct) of an Eldrazi, Miracles, Burn, and DnT heavy meta.... which deck would you take to the GP?

Miracles and Eldrazi seem like fair to positive MUs according to a lot of D&T experts (I'm not one). Burn can be tricky, but is more easily hated out with CoP: Red and other dedicated sideboard hate (it's a smaller investment in sideboard slots if you're on the Enlightened Tutor plan).

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Originally Posted by AsmodeusDM

Given my estimation (which isn't neccessarily correct) of an Eldrazi, Miracles, Burn, and DnT heavy meta.... which deck would you take to the GP?

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Imperial has a slightly better MU against Miracles and Eldrazi. Mono white DnT has a small advantage versus Imperial but knowledge of the mirror can make up the difference. Burn is usually a pretty shit MU but it shouldn't be very prevalent after round 3ish. Remember that the meta will actually be relatively unknown in such a large tournament with players traveling from outside the area to compete.

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Originally Posted by c2232

Imperial has a slightly better MU against Miracles and Eldrazi. Mono white DnT has a small advantage versus Imperial but knowledge of the mirror can make up the difference. Burn is usually a pretty shit MU but it shouldn't be very prevalent after round 3ish. Remember that the meta will actually be relatively unknown in such a large tournament with players traveling from outside the area to compete.

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I agree; however that's one of the reason I expect to see Eldrazi, Burn, DnT.... the low cost... This isn't like an invitational or Eternal weekend with the most serious of grinders.

Also have 2 byes so that helps get past some of the riff raff.

Miracles is a significantly better matchup for Imperial, to the extent that I'm pretty happy to play it. Eldrazi's about the same - you play fewer flyers but you have a 3 mana auto-win card. Burn and UR Delver are the only matchups that I think are really worse for Imperial, and if you want to load up your sideboard against them, you always have that option. The fact that you have the byes helps. Batterskull is good against all of those decks, so yeah if that's what you want to beat you definitely want it main.

Beyond just the normal "well I think it's just a better deck", another reason to play Imperial at a larger event is that it's still fairly under the radar - and will continue to be until they reprint Recruiter. Your opponents rarely play optimally, often play into Magus, don't know what your SB cards are, etc. There's a lot of value in information in legacy, and playing a deck like this against strangers playing 'familiar' decks gives you a real advantage. That edge will be gone someday, but it isn't yet.

Well, you are discussing Imperial Taxes for the last 5 pages or so, so I think people can - in principle - figure out what it can do.

On a sidenote, is there a good SB tech against Miracles beside Cataclysm? Cataclysm is one of the most awkward cards at times, it costs 5 Mana under Thalia, and sometimes your opponent gets to keep a Land, Top and Mentor which is usually better than everything we'll have left. If it can shrink the board down to a single land on the other side of the table, you should be ahead in any case.
I also feel like you should run Flagstones of Trokair instead of a bunch of Plains, but this makes us a bit softer against Blood Moon (and there are people who are convinced that Blood Moon is good against DnT. It is sometimes, but it has great variance to it).

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Originally Posted by Adan

Well, you are discussing Imperial Taxes for the last 5 pages or so, so I think people can - in principle - figure out what it can do.

On a sidenote, is there a good SB tech against Miracles beside Cataclysm?

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Somebody suggested Luminarch Ascension a long time ago. Never bothered to try it as I've never felt Miracles to require dedicated hate except Cataclysm and Cavern of Souls, but it should be quite good on paper. Might have lost some value now that they have mentor and Wear/Tear to side in, though...

Some people are playing Sword of War and Peace. Considering how good SoFI is against Miracles, and how much of a priority it is for their counters/removal, it is probably the first card I'd try if I wanted a little extra help against them

This cool list just won an scg classic: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...?DeckID=103788

Anyone have this much success with eldrazi Displacer?

Saw that.... (almost just as I had decided to keep going with the Imperial version)...

the list is a little strange...

I can't imagine that 4 Displacers is needed or great. They definitely drop off in value after the first... Also (for me) one of the main selling points in monowhite is being able to play Serra Avenger; and his list had none.

You've only got 13 white sources in the deck (and I feel like 15 in the std is almost a little too low).

It's 3 mana to activate displacer in a deck that wants to be wasting and porting and deploying equipment and equipping it.... I just dont' see where/when you are going to have all the excess mana.

In short....


I guess I don't like it... but it won so......

These Classics are fairly small events, so you don't want to read too much into any one thing. (e.g. not including a 3rd Karakas when you have 2 Mangara has to be wrong, even if you have the ability to blink him with Displacer.)

It does highlight that a Displacer build is viable at least, and probably quite good in a creature meta. I don't think I would love playing Miracles, Burn or Storm with that deck, but it's probably great vs Eldrazi and most likely just destroys the mirror.

With the increase in Eldrazi; and a possible uptick in the mirror... boht in which I feel that Jitte is the point upon which the game revolves...

Is there a place for Tower of the Magistrate in the 75?

The thing I like about Displacer is its extensibility. 4 seems like too many, but it is a handsome topdeck.

I think if you want the Tower effect you might as well be playing Eldrazi Displacer, which does the same thing while also doing a million other things. The Eldrazi deck has no way to find its Jittes and Stoneblade has really dropped off the map so really it only wrecks DnT and you don't want the trump card vs a Wasteland deck to be a one-of land that you can't reliably access.

Fair point: concise and well-stated. (re: Tower)

I still don't think I like Displacer though :D

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Originally Posted by Hencules

This cool list just won an scg classic: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...?DeckID=103788

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The list surprised me.... the main is weird, but the sideboard is just craziness.... 1 leyline? how is that for real?

I think he was on one of those cant beat heaters, he 2-0ed charbelcher in the quarters! that is a heater!