[Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

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Originally Posted by .dk

The deck idea originally came from LED/Shallow Grave interactions prior to GP Griselbrand in 2012. After testing those configurations (Tin Fins 1 and 2) with Richard Cheese, it actually didn't even seem like LED was needed - cutting it left room for other useful cards (such as 3 copies of Tendrils and 0 Children of Korlis in that GP list - if only we knew then what we know now!). LED does have some very good uses in the deck though - It's a pretty good IMS after Griselbrand is in play, discard outlet, etc. I did find (albeit not with extensive trials and data collecting like we did a year ago or so) that the fizzle rate was basically 0. However... there are some gotchas.

Making Emrakul gets a lot harder with this build. You need to be conserving your Shallow Graves for that purpose. The other (and larger issue), is that we lose one of the advantages of the standard build in that trying to go off isn't going all-in. One of the things that sets Tin Fins apart from decks like ANT or TES is that if we are disrupted trying to go off, we usually haven't dumped all of our resources into it, so we can easily keep searching and try again relatively quickly due to redundancy in the deck. LED precludes that as you've discarded your hand at that point leaving yourself vulnerable.

Not saying it's bad - just a lot of

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Never got around to thanking you about this bit of history on the evolution of the deck and your thoughts on LED.

After playing a lot with LED I've come to agree that the vulnerability isn't worth it after all, even if the raw power of the deck goes up a bit, which I think it does. LED was especially problematic post board, where normal builds can trim some griselbrands and slow down a little for extra disruption. The LED version was maybe a little better pre board, where Tin Fins already shines, and noticeably worse post.

Anyway, thanks again.

Unrelated:: I've only played legacy online up until now, but I just bought the deck and am ready to rock GP Vegas with the Fins!

Question about Serenity... I'm more of an armchair player but I'm wondering how many threats we want to serenity at once, on average? I ask because, in a B/r build, I wonder if Wear and Tear might be a better option? It still costs 2 to dodge the most problematic chalice value, can be cast when opp taps out, can be cast for 3 to dodge a CMC2 on counterbalance (and to slow the top down a turn), and isn't subject to removal while it's out (Abrupt Decay, Council's Judgment, Venser...).

Abeyance is awesome! I've always wanted it to be good - but it... just isn't. It's a whole lot easier to swallow losing 1 mana and a card to Force of Will when they counter it than 2 mana and not getting the draw off of Abeyance. Silence can at least double as a Duress at that point. The extra mana in Abeyance means you might not even be able to go off that turn if it's countered. It also does nothing against Rest in Peace and Leyline. Maybe someday, when Dark Ritual gets outclassed... ;)

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Originally Posted by Jblinder

Never got around to thanking you about this bit of history on the evolution of the deck and your thoughts on LED.

After playing a lot with LED I've come to agree that the vulnerability isn't worth it after all, even if the raw power of the deck goes up a bit, which I think it does. LED was especially problematic post board, where normal builds can trim some griselbrands and slow down a little for extra disruption. The LED version was maybe a little better pre board, where Tin Fins already shines, and noticeably worse post.

Anyway, thanks again.

Unrelated:: I've only played legacy online up until now, but I just bought the deck and am ready to rock GP Vegas with the Fins!

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hah, you're welcome! It's all buried in this thread somewhere... fun to reminisce about the good old days sometimes (pre DRS!). One other thing I forgot to mention with LED's - Pomegrant plays a build with Burning Wish from time to time - LED is essential there (obviously) if that's the build you want to go with.

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Originally Posted by jugglervr

Question about Serenity... I'm more of an armchair player but I'm wondering how many threats we want to serenity at once, on average? I ask because, in a B/r build, I wonder if Wear and Tear might be a better option? It still costs 2 to dodge the most problematic chalice value, can be cast when opp taps out, can be cast for 3 to dodge a CMC2 on counterbalance (and to slow the top down a turn), and isn't subject to removal while it's out (Abrupt Decay, Council's Judgment, Venser...).

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Umm, as many as you need to win right then. In a BR build, you might be better off playing Crash or Pulverize for artifact hate, and... something else for enchantments. I dunno... Aura Blast? Aura Fracture? Ray of Revelation? I'm really thinking of Chalice decks here, and the ability to wipe their hate for low cost and then go off the same turn. Not sure what to do about Counterbalance though - honestly there aren't a lot of good options.

Having to invest the mana on the turn you want to go off seems really bad for Abeyance cmc2. If we have so much extra mana around, we could be resolving a Sneak Attack or Through the Breach and dodging their grave hate. Assuming that they have just one Macabre in hand, Inquisition of Kozilek or Thoughtseize gets the job done for only 1 mana on the combo turn.

Alternatives:

For non-Faerie Macabre:
Boseiju, Xantid Swarm, Hope of Ghirapur, Defense Grid

For Faerie Macabre:
Pithing Needle, Phyrexian Revoker, Stifle, Lost Legacy, spot discard, Trickbind/Bind/Squelch (although Abeyance should be better than these 2 mana responses)

Dodging DRS, Surgical & Faerie Macabre:
Use Ground Seal + Shallow Grave / Exhume build

Running Gitaxian Probe can help you plan your sequence of play post-sb. Or you can skip Probe and play blindly into whatever they may have and hope for the best, which results in a slightly tighter 75.

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Originally Posted by .dk

Umm, as many as you need to win right then. In a BR build, you might be better off playing Crash or Pulverize for artifact hate, and... something else for enchantments. I dunno... Aura Blast? Aura Fracture? Ray of Revelation? I'm really thinking of Chalice decks here, and the ability to wipe their hate for low cost and then go off the same turn.

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Well, right... the question is, how often is that "more than one", in your, and others', experience? And it can be paid for the turn before, just like Serenity, but with a little more agility.

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Originally Posted by jugglervr

Question about Serenity... I'm more of an armchair player but I'm wondering how many threats we want to serenity at once, on average? I ask because, in a B/r build, I wonder if Wear and Tear might be a better option? It still costs 2 to dodge the most problematic chalice value, can be cast when opp taps out, can be cast for 3 to dodge a CMC2 on counterbalance (and to slow the top down a turn), and isn't subject to removal while it's out (Abrupt Decay, Council's Judgment, Venser...).

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If your straight BR then wear//tear doesn't help catch much, but I assume that we're splashing white if that card is in the 75.

With that being the case I would probably recommend disenchant as the artifact/encht. hate. It is a great card against Leyline, RiP, Cage, Chalice@1/0, and [CARD]Dread of Night[/CARDS] (I had a grixis player board this in hoping to stop the children loop).

Abolish is a cute card that takes care of a lot of things, but I only run 1 scrubland at the moment so it isn't that good. But I guess there could be a build more focused on the white splash making abolish better.

It is at most 4 (but I usually board in 3) cards boarding in that stops all but 5 pieces of hate: DRS, Faerie Macabre, Karakas, Bojuka Bog, and surgical extraction.

DRS, Faerie Macabre, and Karakas are shut off by needle which is nice. Bog and surgical are annoying but our slew of discard spells help there (getting a lands player to crop rotate early or to shallow grave in response to a bog is a wonderful experience).

None of this really helps with miracles, but I have a different game plan for them. In this match up, since I'm playing white, I bring in mentors post board. This becomes similar to an older fringe deck (young Frankenstein/pyro reanimator), but it puts a body on the board that is hard for them to deal with. T1/T2 mentor is really good when they mulligan away terminus looking for RiP or containment priest.

My SB right now looks like this:
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Disenchant
2 Pithing Needle
\\Flex
3 Dread of Night
1 Lost Legacy
1 Deathmark

Disenchant for art./encht. hate. Mentor for Miracles, Dread of Night for D&T. Needle takes care of the aforementioned, and the lost legacy helps against random things at times. Deathmark hasn't been boarded in in ages and should probably be needle 3.

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Originally Posted by jugglervr

Well, right... the question is, how often is that "more than one", in your, and others', experience? And it can be paid for the turn before, just like Serenity, but with a little more agility.

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I'm regularly wiping 2-4 things with Serenity because people who play chalice decks are dumb and play a million lock pieces because they don't know about Serenity. I beat a Leyline combo deck that dumped his entire hand by t2 with Serenity.

The one time Serenity got stopped was by a Stax opponent topdecking his 1-of Oblivion Ring. Every other time, it's gone off and I won the game shortly after.

I don't depend on Serenity vs CB anymore, but I still bring it in because sometimes it slips in and provide a window for me to combo off.

If miracles is a constant thing you have to deal with, it's correct to do either Mentor+Cavern or green splash for Abrupt Decay.

Serenity has been a great card for me for the last few years, and continues to do good work for me. I hate leaving home without it in my SB.

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Originally Posted by Kobra_D

My SB right now looks like this:
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Disenchant
2 Pithing Needle
\\Flex
3 Dread of Night
1 Lost Legacy
1 Deathmark

Disenchant for art./encht. hate. Mentor for Miracles, Dread of Night for D&T. Needle takes care of the aforementioned, and the lost legacy helps against random things at times. Deathmark hasn't been boarded in in ages and should probably be needle 3.

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If you're playing enough white to run the Mentors and full package of Disenchant, I'd think StP would be better than Deathmark. Yes, green and white creatures (DRS, Thalia, Ooze, Canonist) are certainly enemy number 1, but killing something like Delver/Young Pyro/Revoker and being instant seems well worth the life/worse color of mana.

I have a green splash for Abrupt Decay and Reverent Silence, so I'm not splashing white in my board. I use Fatal Push, which is a card I'm surprised isn't being included more/talked about. It's just awesome, and kills all of the creatures listed above, at instant speed, in our main color. I've been very happy with two, and have even considered 3.

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Originally Posted by jugglervr

Well, right... the question is, how often is that "more than one", in your, and others', experience? And it can be paid for the turn before, just like Serenity, but with a little more agility.

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Depends on your meta. If there are a lot of eldrazi or lands players - i would say often. But of those types of decks aren't common, then it's probably not even needed. As acclimation said, it's not amazing vs. CB, and could easily be replaced with something else for that matchup.

@jblinder - why run fatal push when you can run swords? Swords totally breaks any kind of reanimator mirror as well - it's such a house against BR.

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Originally Posted by .dk

Depends on your meta. If there are a lot of eldrazi or lands players - i would say often. But of those types of decks aren't common, then it's probably not even needed. As acclimation said, it's not amazing vs. CB, and could easily be replaced with something else for that matchup.

@jblinder - why run fatal push when you can run swords? Swords totally breaks any kind of reanimator mirror as well - it's such a house against BR.

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I'm playing only one scrubland, and it's not a land I'm particularly excited to fetch, especially against decks like death and taxes and DRS decks with stifles, some of the most common matchups where I want Push. Again, I'm playing a version that is splashing for abrupt decay and reverent silence (abrupt decay for chalice and miracles only, i find it too inefficient in the previously mentioned matchups). Children of korlis is the literal only white card in my list. StP is def better than Push if you're dipping heavily enough into white already. StP>push>deathmark imo, but given that push is a black spell it's very clearly better in my builds.

So, I did some testing with "Redfin", a hybrid of Tin Fins and BR Reanimator. List below, but it basically uses the BR shell, swaps a little discard for some tutoring, and changes out the BR creatures for Fins creatures.

Creature (10)
4x Chancellor of the Annex
1x Children of Korlis
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3x Griselbrand
1x Simian Spirit Guide

Sorcery (16)
3x Cabal Therapy
1x Collective Brutality
3x Exhume
4x Faithless Looting
2x Gamble
1x Tendrils of Agony
2x Unmask

Instant (14)
4x Dark Ritual
4x Entomb
2x Goryo's Vengeance
4x Shallow Grave

Artifact (7)
1x Chrome Mox
4x Lotus Petal
2x Sensei's Divining Top

Land (13)
1x Arid Mesa
2x Badlands
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Marsh Flats
1x Mountain
1x Plateau
1x Scrubland
1x Swamp

Sideboard (15)
1x Collective Brutality
1x Massacre
4x Monastery Mentor
1x Pithing Needle
1x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Serenity
2x Stronghold Gambit
3x Swords to Plowshares

Results were mostly favorable, though I only played against food chain for now. I feel like it was a good test, being a fairly fast deck with maindeck grave hate as well as countermagic.

The deck felt powerful from the first turn. Extra exhumes felt good for sacrificing children, and for just lucking into a chancellor. I played around 4 maindeck DRS and ~5 sideboard cards with the nontargeted reanimation. Nontargeted reanimation (at instant speed) was WAY better IRL than it sounds on paper. It first surprised my opp and then made him afraid to play because he couldn't see the lines.

Sensei's Divining top was quite powerful. The deck is more of a T3 without the blue cantripping, so the top didn't feel too slow; the whole deck was a little slower. It was also quite instrumental more than once to draw an extra card to fuel up for flying onion shrapnel.

Gamble was likewise a solid MVP. The card is traditionally always most useful early (t1 it's entombs #5&6), and we drop our hand rapidly so it feels less useful on t3 BUT gambling after a double 'brand whiff was one of the best feelings ever. Tutor for a card, and only a 6% chance to discard it feels really nice. SSG was useful to fuel the gamble.

I feel a distinct lack of discard in the main. 6 sources doesn't feel like enough so I'm working on how to increase my count. I think maybe one more unmask, or maybe a singleton thoughtseize is the answer. Another thought is to go up to 4x therapy, and cut the chancellors for surgical extraction in the main. Discard into extraction is strong, and extracting a fetch into a targeted therapy is also not awful. I feel like it bears testing. It even counters opposing surgicals by removing the target in response (and subsequently failing to find, of course). Losing the chancellors means i go softer on the exhume plan, I think.

Sideboard notes:

• Serenity FELT bad, but only because my target was Food Chain, which demands instant speed removal. I'm not swapping it for Wear and Tear yet.
• Firestorm was godlike to kill DRS after EoT activations.
• Monastery Mentor was [redacted]. Edit: i'm pretty sure I wasn't enough all-in on the man plan so I want to do some more testing before I pass judgment.
• Pithing needle was great, and I expect it to be great against a wide variety of decks. Definitely going up to 2 in SB.
• Tidespout tyrant probably deserves a slot, since he's useful with a shallow grave mid-burst. Might even replace the 2 serenity in SB, since it's a tutorable solution for permanents. Depends on whether the meta is RiP/Leyline heavy I guess, though if it is I'm definitely on the Discard/Gamble/Stronghold Gambit plan I think.

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Originally Posted by Jblinder

If you're playing enough white to run the Mentors and full package of Disenchant, I'd think StP would be better than Deathmark. Yes, green and white creatures (DRS, Thalia, Ooze, Canonist) are certainly enemy number 1, but killing something like Delver/Young Pyro/Revoker and being instant seems well worth the life/worse color of mana.

I have a green splash for Abrupt Decay and Reverent Silence, so I'm not splashing white in my board. I use Fatal Push, which is a card I'm surprised isn't being included more/talked about. It's just awesome, and kills all of the creatures listed above, at instant speed, in our main color. I've been very happy with two, and have even considered 3.

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The deathmark is because I have soo many D&T in my meta. It seems that every one either plays D&T or has D&T sleeved up just in case they feel like playing it. Fatal push is nice, but it doesn't easily hit 3/4 drops, and there are some creatures above that cmc that I may want to get rid of.

StP is awesome, but I only run 1 scrubland in my 75, along with 5 fetches and 4 petals. So there is not a whole lot of white mana available to me. But I do agree, deathmark is easily my worst card that will get cut first.

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Originally Posted by Kobra_D

The deathmark is because I have soo many D&T in my meta. It seems that every one either plays D&T or has D&T sleeved up just in case they feel like playing it. Fatal push is nice, but it doesn't easily hit 3/4 drops, and there are some creatures above that cmc that I may want to get rid of.

StP is awesome, but I only run 1 scrubland in my 75, along with 5 fetches and 4 petals. So there is not a whole lot of white mana available to me. But I do agree, deathmark is easily my worst card that will get cut first.

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I'd think Fatal Push hitting Revoker is more important vs D&T than hitting 3s and 4s, especially when you can still hit those 3s and 4s with a fetch or a Petal. Even moreso because you're playing Dread of Night and not Massacre, making Revoker one of their most important threats. Hitting Thalia eot happens a lot with Push. I'd take Push over Deathmark all day in that matchup. Agree that Swords is worse than both if you only have Scrubland.

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Originally Posted by Jblinder

I'd think Fatal Push hitting Revoker is more important vs D&T than hitting 3s and 4s, especially when you can still hit those 3s and 4s with a fetch or a Petal. Even moreso because you're playing Dread of Night and not Massacre, making Revoker one of their most important threats. Hitting Thalia eot happens a lot with Push. I'd take Push over Deathmark all day in that matchup. Agree that Swords is worse than both if you only have Scrubland.

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That's a good point, I just got the dread of nights because I was tired of losing to D&T post board, but with them deathmark is a lot less relevant. Maybe Push is right, although, I've also been thinking about collective brutality just because I'm not running one in the main and it does bring some versatility.

Question about the man plan... How does it race combo? My impression is that vs combo, you just have to side in a little reactive hate and race. Is that fair?

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Originally Posted by jugglervr

Question about the man plan... How does it race combo? My impression is that vs combo, you just have to side in a little reactive hate and race. Is that fair?

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Yes, if you're boarding in mentor against ANT or TES, you're doing it wrong. In matchups like that, you should be pretty heavily favored on the reanimation plan - you're faster and generally more resilient to discard spells.

Mentor is only for the grindier match ups.

If I'm against combo, it depends but I'm on some combination of lost legacy, pithing needle, and disenchants.

An opponent may still be able to go off before us, but if you're running a particularly fast list, they need to dilute a decent amount for grave hate.

There are cabal therapy guides out there, but I was curious if anyone was willing to brainstorm a lost legacy and pithing needle guide for various match ups? It may not remain in my 75 but for now I figure it wouldn't hurt to play effectively.

Lost Legacy
Sneak and show- I have no idea, I keep going between the enablers (show and tell/sneak attack), and the actual targets (Griselbrand, Emrakul)
ANT- Tendrils, I've never had an ANT player board in goblins post board.
TES- Burning wish, there is still probably an empty the warrens in the main but as a 1 of it will be a lot more work for them.
Belcher- I think empty the warrens would be right, maybe a ritual or burning wish but probably just warrens. Although if it's a transformative board into bad sneak attack that could be interesting. I also overvalue Chancellor in this match up so that I can steal the play back for an early discard.
Elves- Craterhoof, as if we take natural order they can still generate enough mana to cast craterhoof.
Food Chain- ....food chain....
Aluren- It's too bad legacy can't hit the strix, maybe cavern harpy, or just aluren in general.
Dredge- This one I'm not sure of, maybe bridges, or spy, or dread return. Obvious play is to name narcomeoba.

Pithing Needle
Sneak and show- Sneak attack
ANT- ....
TES- ...
Belcher- Belcher
Elves- DR. Shaman
Food Chain- ....
Aluren- Cavern Harpy
Dredge- ...

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Originally Posted by Kobra_D

Mentor is only for the grindier match ups.

If I'm against combo, it depends but I'm on some combination of lost legacy, pithing needle, and disenchants.

An opponent may still be able to go off before us, but if you're running a particularly fast list, they need to dilute a decent amount for grave hate.

There are cabal therapy guides out there, but I was curious if anyone was willing to brainstorm a lost legacy and pithing needle guide for various match ups? It may not remain in my 75 but for now I figure it wouldn't hurt to play effectively.

Lost Legacy
Sneak and show- I have no idea, I keep going between the enablers (show and tell/sneak attack), and the actual targets (Griselbrand, Emrakul)
ANT- Tendrils, I've never had an ANT player board in goblins post board.
TES- Burning wish, there is still probably an empty the warrens in the main but as a 1 of it will be a lot more work for them.
Belcher- I think empty the warrens would be right, maybe a ritual or burning wish but probably just warrens. Although if it's a transformative board into bad sneak attack that could be interesting. I also overvalue Chancellor in this match up so that I can steal the play back for an early discard.
Elves- Craterhoof, as if we take natural order they can still generate enough mana to cast craterhoof.
Food Chain- ....food chain....
Aluren- It's too bad legacy can't hit the strix, maybe cavern harpy, or just aluren in general.
Dredge- This one I'm not sure of, maybe bridges, or spy, or dread return. Obvious play is to name narcomeoba.

Pithing Needle
Sneak and show- Sneak attack
ANT- ....
TES- ...
Belcher- Belcher
Elves- DR. Shaman
Food Chain- ....
Aluren- Cavern Harpy
Dredge- ...

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Why on earth would you bring in lost legacy against combo? Seems like a waste of a dark ritual to me. And anything you're taking out for that is probably better in the matchup. Your discard should be good enough to slow them down for you to win usually. And actually... why on earth would you play lost legacy?

Needle, on the other hand... That's useful in some combo matchups. Epic win vs. Oops, All Spells one time with T1 needle on Street Wraith.

ANT/TES - don't bring it in
Food Chain - Probably DRS. If you're forced to name Food Chain, you're probably in bad shape.
Aluren - the combo wins straight through needle on harpy with rec sage. Always name DRS to slow them down and protect your graveyard. This should be an easy matchup.
Dredge - don't bring it in
Oops - Street Wraith
Elves - DRS usually
Sneak and Show - Sneak Attack

The exception is if you probe these decks and see a hand with only 1 fetchland in it, name that. Needle is generally in the sideboard for DRS, Wasteland, Karakas, SDT against slower decks. Has marginal utility in combo matches (aside form those decks running DRS)

I would cut a probe for legacy, not a ritual, as a matter of fact probe is probably the first card I cut post board unless I'm bringing in mentors.

And I'm not sold on lost legacy not being a viable candidate, it is a 1 card hate piece for a lot of matchups. It is also convenient on being able to hit some hand traps early like, macabre or containment priest. If I have disenchants and discard for everything else this could enable me to go off.

I'm definitely not sold on it yet but I am unwilling to try it without a little more testing.

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Originally Posted by Kobra_D

I would cut a probe for legacy, not a ritual, as a matter of fact probe is probably the first card I cut post board unless I'm bringing in mentors.

And I'm not sold on lost legacy not being a viable candidate, it is a 1 card hate piece for a lot of matchups. It is also convenient on being able to hit some hand traps early like, macabre or containment priest. If I have disenchants and discard for everything else this could enable me to go off.

I'm definitely not sold on it yet but I am unwilling to try it without a little more testing.

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That's not what I meant. I meant that you are likely going to be casting it off of dark ritual against another combo deck to make it fast enough.