[Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)

By the way, just saw the new Dredge primer. Isn't it time for a new Enchantress primer too?
For a long time already this thread is going in circles with dicussions about:

- Moat: needed or not?
- Blue/Words of Wind: worth it or not?
- Non-enchantment acceleration (petal, mox, ESG): worth it or not?
- Tutors, like Enlightened and Zenith: worth it or not?
- Emrakul: worth it or not?

Only in a blue moon a new subject comes around, like some new cards (Nevermore and Stony silence) and... and that's that. The last real breakthrough this deck had was Replenish leaving the ban list.

I think someone with better writing skills than me should sum that up and publish a new primer.

omg secret tek: Immolation kills Psychatog and Wild Mongrel.

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Originally Posted by SpatulaOfTheAges

omg secret tek: Immolation kills Psychatog and Wild Mongrel.

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Meddling Mage too!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by caiomarcos

By the way, just saw the new Dredge primer. Isn't it time for a new Enchantress primer too?
For a long time already this thread is going in circles with dicussions about:

- Moat: needed or not?
- Blue/Words of Wind: worth it or not?
- Non-enchantment acceleration (petal, mox, ESG): worth it or not?
- Tutors, like Enlightened and Zenith: worth it or not?
- Emrakul: worth it or not?

Only in a blue moon a new subject comes around, like some new cards (Nevermore and Stony silence) and... and that's that. The last real breakthrough this deck had was Replenish leaving the ban list.

I think someone with better writing skills than me should sum that up and publish a new primer.

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I'll attempt to help you out with this. I'm not terribly experienced with the deck but I've been playing it for a while.

Moat: or a similar effect is always needed, it's how we are allowed time to set up, especially with the strength of maverick keeping decks that relied on delver and other small flying swarms at bay. It gives you room to breath while you prepare your lock, instead of slamming down solitary confinement and praying to god you won't hit a land pocket in your draws. There will always be non-flying creatures, and they will always want to attack you, especially once your opponent figures out your gameplan and starts throwing everything including the kitchen sink at you.

Blue: Not enough testing to tell just yet (IMO). Words of wind is good, but it doesn't really win, words of war will win and fast. While there are a lot of blue enchantments that could be very helpful, moat eliminates the need to have all the bounce blue offers. The library-filtering blue cards are also not necessary because we have 8 enchantresses that draw us tons of cards along with mirri's guile to set them up as we see fit. I'm sorry Freggle I don't mean to come off like an ass but I feel all the bells and whistles that blue offers will remove the efficacy of the deck and slow it down. White gives us everything we need and more. Combo? Rule of Law/Nevermore/stony silence/runed halo/bloodmoon. Creatures? Moat. Do those creatures fly? Raking canopy. Are they countering our stuff and brainstorming too much? City of Solitude. We have a lot of answers in the current colors and they require no thought after they resolve.
I'm not counting blue out, if it works for you, by all means go for it, but red just wins faster.
Emrakul? O-ring. Or just flip the table and declare it a draw.

Non-Enchantment Acceleration: Once again, this brings up the consistency concern, if you have too many of these it'll be harder to maintain a lock (imagine draw two lotus petals and a land) and chrome mox is actually more detrimental to keeping our hand full for solitary. 4 Utopia Sprawl and 4 Wild growth have been perfect in my experience with the deck.

Tutors: While I currently use the Green Sun's Zenith I'm planning to go back to Enlightened tutor. You can say that it is card disadvantage but the fact of the matter is it will get what you need. I can zenith into an argothian, great... now I have to hope to draw my silver bullet. Don't get me wrong, Zenith has it's merits, it'll speed up the lock process, but it's more of a gamble. It is also interesting to note that with Qasali Pridemage being a main-decked creature, the tutors would be even better because now we can keep our Sterling groves in play.

I'd certainly be willing to write up a new guide for the deck. I'm quite an prompt contributor in the Dragon Stompy thread, so if you want to see how I write you can go there.

@ Blue: TBH if I could afford the In the Eyes of Chaos I would've splashed it a long time ago. :p

Forlorn Egoist

My comments in this thread are not to incite anger, but to spur conversation. I do think that Blue offers a lot to Enchantress, but it takes a different point of view to the deck.

One it which I am not claiming is better. I will say however Seal of Removal is about as perfect of an answer the deck gets to Emrakul unless hard casted then it is trumped by Oblivion Ring.

I do think that Defense of the Heart can do good things for SOME builds, but not all. I do feel it is best used in lists with Emakrul.

As for the basic forests. I fully understand. The traditional enchantress lists are totally focused on the longest of games, and in doing so must protect everything from everything. However, when focused on this strategy there are many cards in the deck that are used to not loose, whereas those slots could potentially be used to try and win more soundly and quickly. ...like defense of the Heart Emakrul OR Natural Order -> Progenitus.

These are just ideas, but I think they should be discussed as they are some of the most solid ways to win in Legacy. Not discussing them is a disservice to all who write and read here IMHO.

For those interested I'm looking into some powerful enchantress interactions in a primarily GU list here.

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Originally Posted by wcm8

Seems like Seal of Fire is just better if you want that effect.

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I prefer seal of fire to immolation. Here's why. Immolation fixes a problem on the board that's already messing with you. Seal of Fire thumps itself on the chest and yells "Come at me bro!" then burns bobs eyes out a couple turns later or finishes of Liliana. It also can be used against other PW in an emergency (buys a turn v. Jace going ultimate) where Immolation can only get guys. Seal is more versatile.

Getting to my wit's end at the theorycrafting on blue. All kill conditions are great kill conditions when you have 3-4 Enchantress effects out and a Solitary on the board. This is undeniably true and will remain so. Words of War doesn't just win any more quickly than Fanning the Flames in those cases.

Some kill conditions are good in situations where it would be very hard to win the game otherwise.

Sigil of the Empty Throne is great because it doesn't require any Enchantress effects to be bonkers. You just play cards from your deck and it's amazing. It does cost WW to play and it is susceptible to cards that prevent creatures from dealing damage (Elephant Grass, Solitary Confinement, Propaganda). It requires an untap step to do anything.

Emrakul is good because it gives you an out against an opponent who reserves sufficient countermagic to handle your kill conditions and makes decking nearly impossible. It breaks stalemates in the mirror. It is not great because it costs 15 and will never do anything other than win games that have lasted long enough to cast him. It is not susceptible to hate.

Words of War is good because it provides a concrete ending point. It can kill hatebears and maybe take down pesky Planeswalkers (though I haven't heard a single account of either of these things). It is not great because it requires you to have effectively already won the game in order to work (via having a spare 9-10 draws). It's fast if you've already won, but at that point, so is Hurricane. It is susceptible to Pithing Needle, damage prevention cards.

Words of Wind is good because it can break a stalemate in the mirror. It can prevent an opponent from playing mass removal or from establishing a strong presence in the game. Most opponents will scoop to it once their position is obviously locked out. It is not great because it is very mana intensive (like Words of War) and does not deal damage directly. It is susceptible to Pithing Needle.

Sacred Mesa is bad because it is slow and mana intensive and is susceptible to hate. It is susceptible to Pithing Needle, anti-creature cards, damage prevention cards. It requires an untap step to do anything.


The argument for running blue is:
You play against a lot of Force of Wills and Words of Wind is more of a must-counter than Words of War. (this depends on how aggro they want to be).
You play against the mirror a lot.
You play against 4x Pernicious Deed a lot.
You play against Solidarity.
Brainstorm could be great (although not in my experience in this deck).
Energy Flux is hilarious; In the Eye of Chaos is better.
You eat up infinite combos.

The argument for running red is:
Words of War is MENACING.
Blood Moon is excellent in a LOT of matchups (the good reason to run red).
You like the idea of having access to direct damage (Seal of Fire, Words of War).
You want to run all basics and always be able to cast Trace of Abundance on your Serra's Sanctum.
Not having too many deckbuilding options gives you a clarity of focus.

The argument for running black is (and hasn't been made before):
Pernicious Deed is awesome if you have a Replenish for when you untap.
Thoughtseize is an incredible disruption tool.
Words of Waste is another effective lock for a different gamestate (permanent instant speed hand disruption if you have Sensei's Divining Top).
4 Seal of Doom + 3-4 Replenishes sounds really appealing in your meta.
Argothian Enchantress seems built for The Abyss.
You take contrarianism more seriously than anyone else.

You forgot to mention the biggest con against Emrakul: it is not an enchantmet.

If you cast Emrakul, I don't think you care if it's an enchantment.

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Originally Posted by waSP

If you cast Emrakul, I don't think you care if it's an enchantment.

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But if you cast or search or replenish WoW(s), Sacred Mesa, Sigil you do care that they are enchantments. Many many times you don't really care if it is a kill condition or a protection or an acceleration, you only want them to be enchantments.

What I'm saying is exactly what you said here: "It is not great because it costs 15 and will never do anything other than win games that have lasted long enough to cast him".

I just tried to emphasize that by saying, plain and simple, that it is not an enchantment. That makes it much worse than 'not great'.

I'm sure it's been discussed before, but a card that I think would be kind of cool as a back-up kill condition in the SB is Primal Order.

All you have to do is drop it and play defensively for a few turns. It doesn't require using the attack phase or multiple activations -- just a fire and forget type of card.

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Originally Posted by waSP

Argothian Enchantress seems built for The Abyss.

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Not enough time to read through all the posts, and answer all of them, but this no longer works the way you think it does.

At the beginning of each
player's upkeep, destroy
target nonartifact creature
that player controls of his
or her choice. It can't be
regenerated.

Since the only thing it would kill is angel tokens, I imagine it prolly works the way he thinks it does.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DrHealex

At the beginning of each
player's upkeep, destroy
target nonartifact creature
that player controls of his
or her choice. It can't be
regenerated.

Since the only thing it would kill is angel tokens, I imagine it prolly works the way he thinks it does.

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QFT. The Abyss was a staple in the original Type 1 Enchantress decks (circa 2002) because of this specific interaction. Neither card has been changed in any way since that has any influence here.

I was thinking about writing an article about the history of Enchantress decks (including the old Type 1 versions, which the Legacy lists borrow heavily from in terms of general deck structure, whether the builders realize this or not, and are really the genesis of the modern engine (Argothian+Presence+Grove)). This would probably end up being a primer of sorts (that includes much historical context). The Vintage Enchantress decks are interesting in terms of discussing a color splash because they had both Black and Blue splashes. The Blue was primarily for Ancestral and Walk (and such not as relevant for Legacy), but Black allowed some interesting things like The Abyss, Words of Waste, and Duress/Thoughtseize (as has been previously mentioned). I have considered trying to develop a version with a black splash to shore up the combo matchup, but never seem to find the time (damn real life getting in the way!).

Also:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by waSP

Words of War is good because it provides a concrete ending point. It can kill hatebears and maybe take down pesky Planeswalkers (though I haven't heard a single account of either of these things). It is not great because it requires you to have effectively already won the game in order to work (via having a spare 9-10 draws). It's fast if you've already won, but at that point, so is Hurricane. It is susceptible to Pithing Needle, damage prevention cards.

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This is not necessarily true (well, Pithing Needle/Prevention I'll give you). I won a game 3 at SGC Sacramento in less than 10 minutes due to being aggressive with WoW. I did not have a lock, but was in a position where I had tripped up my opponent enough that he was not applying significant pressure (WoW kills weenies), so I just skipped my draws and aimed for the face. Admittedly, I likely would have played more conservatively if there had been more time left on the clock, but he didn't recover and I won the game in record time (for Enchantress especially). While this sort of thing isn't common, it does occur occasionally and highlights the versatility of Words of War.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DrHealex

At the beginning of each
player's upkeep, destroy
target nonartifact creature
that player controls of his
or her choice. It can't be
regenerated.

Since the only thing it would kill is angel tokens, I imagine it prolly works the way he thinks it does.

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It no longer targets. Oracle Text:
"At the beginning of each player's upkeep, destroy target nonartifact creature that player controls of his or her choice. It can't be regenerated."

If no other creatures are in play it would destroy Argothian.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Freggle

It no longer targets. Oracle Text:
"At the beginning of each player's upkeep, destroy target nonartifact creature that player controls of his or her choice. It can't be regenerated."

If no other creatures are in play it would destroy Argothian.

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Um...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by heroicraptor

Um...

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Ha-ha! I'm really sorry. i'm at work and should just focus on that. You're right.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aahz

I was thinking about writing an article about the history of Enchantress decks (including the old Type 1 versions, which the Legacy lists borrow heavily from in terms of general deck structure, whether the builders realize this or not, and are really the genesis of the modern engine (Argothian+Presence+Grove)).

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I would love to read this, and see a new primer. Also, I hope I'm not too annoying looking for ways to push this archetype back to a DTB state. I just really like the archetype and I think with a fresh perspective there might be room for improvement.

Like what is the ultimate drawback to a tight Natural Order / Progenitus package? ...or just winning off the back of an Emakrul?

I think 1 to 2 Natural Order & 1 Progenitus MAY be okay because it will always allow the deck to threaten a win even from a loosing position. It will also make that scary targeted discard really REALLY think.

...or with list that run Ghostly Prison why wouldn't you just run Defense of the Heart if everyone is so good at playing around the card? Don't 1 to 2 creatures still get through under a prison? There might just be the off chance that you could catch someone with 3 creatures out an tutor out a Emakrul. ...you know like Dryad Arbor, Noble, Knight?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Freggle

I would love to read this, and see a new primer. Also, I hope I'm not too annoying looking for ways to push this archetype back to a DTB state. I just really like the archetype and I think with a fresh perspective there might be room for improvement.

Like what is the ultimate drawback to a tight Natural Order / Progenitus package? ...or just winning off the back of an Emakrul?

I think 1 to 2 Natural Order & 1 Progenitus MAY be okay because it will always allow the deck to threaten a win even from a loosing position. It will also make that scary targeted discard really REALLY think.

...or with list that run Ghostly Prison why wouldn't you just run Defense of the Heart if everyone is so good at playing around the card? Don't 1 to 2 creatures still get through under a prison? There might just be the off chance that you could catch someone with 3 creatures out an tutor out a Emakrul. ...you know like Dryad Arbor, Noble, Knight?

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How is Natural Order + Progenitus fresh?
Have you tested it?