[DTB] Vial Goblins

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Originally Posted by Eldariel

Seems surprisingly good. The drawback is annoying, but it's actually strong enough to be played as a pure beater-type 1-drop. I mean, it's a hasty 2/2; that means it's dealt 8 damage by turn 4.

When they're flooding, it becomes worse, but lots of Legacy-decks cheat on lands anyways so the drawback should only do anything one-third of turns and given that Gobs usually uses land denial as a tempo tool, it just might work.

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So that makes the curve looks something like:

4 Goblin Guide
4 Vial
4 Lackey

4 Piledriver
4 new doublestrike lackey

That looks really solid for early game, which is something vial goblins has needed recently.

Yeah, Goblin Guide looks pretty good. The drawback isn't even necessarily a drawback most of the time.

I'm going to have to be convinced about Instigator, though...

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Originally Posted by Eldariel

Seems surprisingly good. The drawback is annoying, but it's actually strong enough to be played as a pure beater-type 1-drop. I mean, it's a hasty 2/2; that means it's dealt 8 damage by turn 4.

When they're flooding, it becomes worse, but lots of Legacy-decks cheat on lands anyways so the drawback should only do anything one-third of turns and given that Gobs usually uses land denial as a tempo tool, it just might work.


Frankly, I'm more excited by this card than by the new Lackey. Would give us a second decent 1-drop. The Instigator isn't bad either; if it connects, it means almost an instant SGC with Ring/Matron often transforming into SGCs too. It could give us additional tools against counter-based decks and another must-block creature (which allows you to force them to hold back or remove your guy, and at some point they just can't block all your piles, Lackeys, Instigators and company; and yeah, even midgame, extra SGCs on the board are something opponent usually doesn't want to deal with).

I'm just not sure there's room for Instigator in the deck, and additional X/1s are kinda annoying as they make us more vulnerable to Plagues. Another reason I sorta like the Guide, to be honest.

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So why not play him with a fuckton of lords? Merfolk can do it, and our lords are good too. Something like 4x chieftain, 4x mad auntie and 1x king should be cool.
You could mix in some magus of the moon action, if you like (even though it's not needed) or just randomly fuck over decks like TT, zoo and loam, while flooding the board with utility guys that grab other guys but are still 3/3 or 4/4 with haste, double strike and/or throw guys onto the table for free. Mix in some of those tokengenerators we all know and love (MWM, SGC), savage :cool:

One other minor thing guide can help do is help you figure out what your opponent is playing, depending on the reveal. Just something to take note of.

I see him as part of lord goblins, I don't know how effective a vanilla 2/2 is. We'll see.

I just typed this up as a concept including the Warren Instigator. I'd like to revise it, hoping I could get some insight.

4x Wooded Foothills
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Plateau
7x Mountain
3x Chrome Mox

4x Goblin Lackey
1x Frenzied Goblin

4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Warren Instigator

4x Gempalm Incinerator
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Chieftain

4x Goblin Ringleader
1x Goblin Pyromancer

2x Siege-Gang Commander

4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Aether Vial

So what are people planning on running with the two new dudes?

24 Lands

4 Aether Vial

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Guide

4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Warren Instigator

4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Chieftan
4 Goblin Matron
4 Gempalm Incinerator

4 Goblin Ringleader

4 Siege Gang Commander

Obviously the numbers need to be trimmed, but is this close?

Well obviously Goblin Guide and Wasteland should probably never go in the same deck. I'm not yet convinced by Goblin Guide. He appears an ok creature for the format but Goblins right now is just so packed with playables that it's hard to pass judgement. If Guide proves worthwhile then the manadenial-route of this deck is going to be history. After that it's pure speed and cardadvantage. While Goblins is appearing to assemble the missing pieces to that strategy I'm still not sold on the idea.

I don't like giving c.a. to opponent, but who knows. I can give it a try but I don't think it would take the cut here. (talking about 2/2 hasted)

Are we back to the thread title, "Is Card Advantage better than Speed?" I think that was it, but instead of Card Advantage, you have Mana Denial.

I don't like the idea of goblin guide helping the opponent dig for answers faster. For a 2/2 it doesn't seem worth it. I think establishing Lackey or Aether Vial turn one is far superior. Do we need 12 1 drops?

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Originally Posted by Jayzonious

I don't like the idea of goblin guide helping the opponent dig for answers faster. For a 2/2 it doesn't seem worth it. I think establishing Lackey or Aether Vial turn one is far superior. Do we need 12 1 drops?

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Yes? I don't know if it is needed, but Goblins has been packing 12 one drops for a while. Since Mogg got hosed, people have been looking for other options. Mogg is still playable of course, but pretty meh. Goblin Guide is ridiculously explosive and doesn't help them dig for answers at all, but it does give them lands if they have one on top.

I think going more aggressive could help the deck out. It will be interesting to see what Goblins does in the future,

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Originally Posted by Jak.

Are we back to the thread title, "Is Card Advantage better than Speed?" I think that was it, but instead of Card Advantage, you have Mana Denial.

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None of that debate matters unless you know how much speed you are trading for how much cardadvantage or mana denial. And those variables are exactly what should be tried to be asessed when discussing potential newcomers.

IDK I don't really like either.

GG obviously isn't very synergistic with Wastes/Ports and is positively terrible when your opponent has a Top in play. I don't think it fits into the deck as is.

I'd also rather MWM than Instigator. WI seems like a turn too slow. War-Marshall will at least always give you an extra guy and he blocks really well.

Goblins denial package and Goblin Guide don't really mix well. Assuming a deck has 20 lands in a 60 card deck, you'll give them a free draw 1/3 of the connects. The good news is that they can still only play one land a turn (barring decks with Exploration), so you could clog their hand some, but it's still thinning their deck.

So yeah, that's my $.02. You're giving up a little control to take on an aggro role. My question is, would placing in a few lords be better?

Next thing you know, people are going to put in Goblin Grenade and Fireblast too!

A new card comes out and people go crazy.

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Originally Posted by chokin

Goblins denial package and Goblin Guide don't really mix well. Assuming a deck has 20 lands in a 60 card deck, you'll give them a free draw 1/3 of the connects. The good news is that they can still only play one land a turn (barring decks with Exploration), so you could clog their hand some, but it's still thinning their deck.

So yeah, that's my $.02. You're giving up a little control to take on an aggro role. My question is, would placing in a few lords be better?

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A) just a minor remark but he doesn't have to connect, just attack
B) and more importantly he thinns the top of their deck

I really don't like the guide, and on a quick note he *does* thin your opponent's deck and he *does* dig for answers, since you're removing a possible dead draw (a land) and giving him something else, answers which are not going to be wasted on a 2/2 beater that doesn't lackey, remove guys, fetch guys or anything at all.
If I played landstill and faced down this dude it wouldn't even cross my mind to waste any removal on him, since he's helping me make landdrops and find business, all of that for a 2/2 beater.

I can see him being moderately succesful in standard RDW but not alot more.

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Originally Posted by Ectoplasm

he *does* dig for answers, since you're removing a possible dead draw (a land) and giving him something else, answers which are not going to be wasted on a 2/2 beater that doesn't lackey, remove guys, fetch guys or anything at all

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Thanks for explaining this. I didn't think I had to in my previous post, but obviously the person who said he doesn't dig for answers didn't understand the concept.

Goblin Guide is horrible.

NEXT

Heh.. "thanks for letting me get to Deed faster" :P

lol, I'd pay the two life myself if I could get an extra land drop every other turn :) There is absolutely no way around the fact this card is a bad idea, poor CA

Hmmm... I almost forgot; One more thing.....

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Next thing you know, people are going to put in Goblin Grenade and Fireblast too!

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http://www.wizards.com/sideboard/ima.../fireblast.jpg
http://www.kelz0r.dk/magic/images//img2/fe/fe62.jpg

They're BACK MUHAHAHAHAAh ROFL!!!

The land is only put into their hand so don't get ahead of yourselves. Still not the best card goblins could've wished for.