Re: [DTW] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rsaunder
2 P2E
After seeing this deck in action at the GP, and doing some minor playtesting with it, I also want to squeeze in a pair of Paths to the main. I play two in the board and always seem to board them in. I've haven't come to a solid conclusion on what to cut from my list; I don't want any less than 3 Decree, 2 Elspeth, and 3 sweepers.
Quote:
7 basics seems to be >format right now
I run seven as well. Here's my manabase:
Quote:
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
3 Island
3 Plains
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
15 blue sources and 14 white. Seven basics have been fantastic for me. After Zendikar, I plan on playing 2 Marsh Flats and 1 Delta, since white producing lands are more important against decks that attack landstill's manabase, and I only play two Counterspells so UU is less relevant. When I've been playtesting recently I've had a bunch of situations where I looked at a Delta in mine hand and said "I wish this found a basic Plains". Also, I only play B spells in the board, which is why I only have two lands that produce B. I have a total of 9 black sources, which is usually what most people run.
Has anyone tested Ravenous Trap as a Cunning Wish target? I'm really intrigued by it:
Quote:
Ravenous Trap
2:b::b:
Instant - Trap Uncommon
If an opponent had three or more cards put into his or her graveyard from anywhere this turn, you may pay 0 rather than pay Ravenous Trap's mana cost.
Exile all cards from target player's graveyard.
It seems better than Extirpate against Dredge and aggro loam, and it doesn't force you to fetch a land that produces B.
Re: [DTW] UW(x) Landstill
Ravenous Trap is an amazing Wish target. Also, with the addition of Top, we can hide Ravenous Traps on Top of our library, protecting it from cards like Unmask and Cabal Therapy. Of course, we only need one. Running three wishes is more than enough to compensate for it against a deck like Ichorid. Also, not having to fetch a black source using a fetchland is another huge plus.
Re: [DTW] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hanni
I could write a detailed explanation why I think it's perfect in Landstill and why I think it's so powerful. At the end of the day though, those that are willing to run it will and those that won't, well, won't.
...
Honestly this would probably help me out a lot. I've just recently decided to pick up the deck and after reading huge chunks of this thread I'm still very on the fence about which direction to take my build.
Unfortunately I'm not sure there's a solid answer to: "Should I run: Vindicate, Cunning Wish, CB/Top, or some combination?" Aside from maybe trying each of them out.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but from my understanding most people either run CB in the side or they run Cunning Wish main, but not usually both, and CB main deck is a rarity?
Re: [DTW] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but from my understanding most people either run CB in the side or they run Cunning Wish main, but not usually both, and CB main deck is a rarity?
Correct.
Quote:
Honestly this would probably help me out a lot.
I've actually been asked by someone to make a Primer for the deck, because it plays so much drastically from other Landstill lists, and it's matchup percentages are significantly different. Considering Ultimate Walker has its own thread, this seems justifiable. So if you can wait a little bit while I write up a Primer and post U/W Counterbalance Landstill as a new entity, you'll have a detailed explanation of the deck, as well as alot of other content to include.
I've been piloting the deck for about 6 months now, so I should have enough data to compile a solid Primer. The only issue is time; I'm a self contracted salesman for insurance and timeshare so I work alot. I hope to have the Primer up as soon as possible.
Re: [DTW] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
whiteshepherdman
Since i'm not running top my gut feeling tells me its better that i run cop red over cb against sligh, plus its helpful against goblins too
Also, just wanted to say, CoP: Red is getting shittier cuz Pridemages and Grips make it look like crap. That's one thing that makes Counterbalance better than CoP: Red.
Re: [DTW] UW(x) Landstill
Everyone, please disregard the following post. This is a reply to Mossivo. The PM would not allow me to send more than 5000 characters and this is 13000 something characters long. Once Mossivo has read this and replied to me in PM, I will delete this post. I did not include quote tags in this post, so some of it will not make sense to you. Then again, it's not supposed to. Everyone but Mossivo, please disregard the following post.
I'll try to answer the personal questions and limit the deck related questions in this PM. I'll address in greater detail the deck related questions in my primer, which are good points that I'm glad you brought up. I will use those questions to strengthen the primer. If you have more of those, feel free to PM me those so I have more information to include in the primer.
To begin.
First off, I've played other decklists of Landstill as well. So I'm not limited in scope to only playing one version of Landstill. What I was getting at was that I've played the exact same maindeck for 6 months now, so it's not like I've only had 1 week playing it one way, then changing it to another way. I've got concrete playtesting results from that specific configuration, which was my point. If 6 months isn't enough time to develop something, then I don't know what is.
I personally talk over decks with members here on The Source as well. I was not discrediting you about Landstill, nor your teamates. However, you are discrediting me.
Just because you've used Counterbalance in the sideboard, or have tried it in the past, does not change the fact that you haven't used it in the shell I'm using it in. This may be a reason why your perception of it is slightly different than mine.
Why are you now attacking me on tournament results? I don't have the means to go to lots of tournaments to attempt to place. Regardless, I've seen horrible decklists (and this doesn't apply to just Landstill) make Top 8 and I've seen great decklists near the bottom of tournament ladders. This isn't always a direct representation of the decklist itself, but rather takes into account multiple other factors like pilot playskill, matchup pairings, so on and so forth. The more impacting statement a particular decklist can make, IMO, is making Top 8 (or close to the top in large tournaments), with horrible matchup pairings throughout the entire tournament. Again, there is still playskill involved even in that scenario, so basing it purely on the strength of the particular decklist is still difficult to determine simply off of tournament results.
The difference between experience and ideology does not have to directly corrolate to tournaments.
Ideology means someone thinks about something, writes it down on paper, and thinks it looks good on paper and should work out well in theory.
Experience means that the deck has been played against live opponent's over and over in ones spare time enough that common Tier 1 and Tier 2 matchups have been played. Especially when multiple different opponent's are being tested against with the same decks, so that it cannot be determined that certain matchups were won/lost because of the opponent's playskill. This does not need to be done solely through tournament play to be a real representation.
I can agree that developing better playskill is done by playing in high stakes settings like important tournaments, but actual deckbuilding is just as effectively done through extensive playtesting against a wide variety of opponent's using common Tier 1 and Tier 2 decklists over and over, tournament or not. When Landstill can consistently 2-0 matchups like Aggro Loam and Burn against various opponent's, it must be more than simply "I got lucky" or "my competition doesn't know what the hell they are doing." Think in terms of sports for a second; playtesting is to practice as tournaments are to the game. You don't get better at the sport only when playing in the game, you get better at the sport by going to lots of practices.
I don't care if you think I'm making a Landstill look alike or not. If it has manlands and it has Standstill, it's a Landstill variant. Not all posted variants are any good, but don't simply dismiss something just because you don't want to accept radical change.
Now we have the deck related questions, which I'll try to keep limited for now:
Yes, those matchups are improved. So are many other matchups.
I fail to see how Merfolk now becomes punted, considering I do very well against Merfolk. Counterbalance itself doesn't hit two of their lords and Wakethrasher if they run it, but it hits everything else. The only foil is Vial, which is typically a must counter or must O Ring preboard, and of course postboard there are more answers. I'll address this matchup more in the primer.
Goblins preboard is not improved by Counterbalance. There are a few targets for it, but for the most part they are bundled up at the 3cc spot. However, the U/W manabase that I run makes up for my deficencies in many of the matchups where Counterbalance isn't so hot, like Goblins and Dragon Stompy, which does in fact improve those matchups. Again, Vial is something you want to answer quickly. Otherwise, the deck has enough removal and Decree/Elspeth to handle Goblins. Not so hot preboard, sure, but postboard with BEB and PtE it's a serious beating. More on this matchup in the primer too.
I 100% disagree with you about Threshold. I rape Threshold. Countless amount of times does this happen.
Tempo Thresh is improved by the U/W manabase and their low threat density is met by a large number of removal spells. If they don't tempo you early, you win by being the control deck. Considering that I run a more stable manabase and 4 Brainstorm/Top, I'm able to reach enough land to play through their Stifles/Wastes/Dazes. Counterbalance is huge here because if I resolve CounterTop, that's typically game, barring them topdecking into a bounce spell (since they cannot cast cantrips). More on this matcup later, as I'll go over it more.
(Factory and WoG answer Goose, btw)
CounterTop Thresh is again, a beating. This deck runs cards out of their CB range, where most of their cards are in my CB range. CounterTop is able to be played through and I also run answers to it. They play a slower game and I have a stronger control suite. The biggest bomb they have against me is CounterTop, and I'm fighting fire with fire. If they resolve a CounterTop, it makes the matchup harder for me; if I resolve a CounterTop, it's usually game. Postboard they have Grips, I have O Rings, which sure, Grip is better. But alot of times even they do Grip my Counterbalance, they are too far out of the game to come back. I generate far more card advantage than they do. I won't go into this in any more detail than that because that's already too long of an answer; you'll get more in the primer.
I never said Dreadstill was simply an oops deck, I said that it has a disruptable I-win combo. It makes use of Counterbalance well because it protects the combo, but does not mean without it that it's not disruptable and that other decks don't have just as much to gain from running Counterbalance. I'll address this deck (Dreadstill) more later.
Decks like Thresh and Dreadstill don't run Counterspell because they curve out early and don't intend on hitting enough land drops or sitting back to be able to have UU open to cast Counterspell. That's why Daze is good here. Flip this around for a moment; if Daze is so good in those decks, why don't we run it? Exactly. Landstill a control deck and they are aggro/control. We are able to leave UU open to counter things, we play draw go when the board is clear. They don't. Don't try to compare why Counterspell is good/bad in Landstill to why it's good/bad in Threshold; that's comparing apples to oranges, not apples to apples. That is absolutely a piss pour argument.
You can compare my Counterspell to Thresh's Tarmogoyf all you want. Landstill is designed as a reactive deck, not a proactive one. That's why we have Counterspell for that Goyf, but that's also why we have Swords to Plowshares for that Goyf. They play threats, we counter with answers. Generally, we have more answers than they have threats, and that's why it's an effective strategy. One of the major reasons this works is because, a) we run more answers than they play threats, and b) we have enough card advantage to power through their answers to our answers. Without Counterbalance they play a 1-for-1 game while we have multiple avenues to get 2-for-1 (or greater) trades.
Spell Snare can cause tempo loss, sure. It's going to do the same thing to other Landstill lists too. You're acting like my dependance on 2cc is dramatically higher than everyone else. If you play 4 Standstill 3 Counterspell, you're running 5 less 2cc spells. The question of how much tempo I lose is relevant to the gamestate. Considering that the way Threshold wins (CounterTop aside) is through creatures, and that none of my creature removal is 2cc, I don't think the loss of tempo is quite that serious. I mean, if I Counterspell their Nimble Mongoose or Rhox War Monk and they Spell Snare me, you're Spell Snare (i.e Spell Snare run by you, Landstill player) wasn't doing shit anyways. At least my Counterbalance (if it's in play) can counter their Spell Snare on my Counterspell.
This deck is Landstill. Of course the aggro matchups are good matchups. If they are 1cc-2cc centric like Goyf Sligh and Zoo, Counterbalance is great. If they are Vial based Tribal, I bring in an assload of removal from the sideboard. If they are red based aggro, BEB is there; remember that my sideboard consists of 1 WoG, 2 ORing, 4 PtE, and 4 BEB. The only matchups where Counterbalance isn't optimal against is Vial Tribal (Merfolk and Goblins), where Vial is bad vs any Landstill list regardless, and Merfolk does in fact have many cards in the 1cc and 2cc range.
Again, I'm also running the U/W manabase and 4 Brainstorm/Top (to dig for land and removal) to make up for Counterbalances mediocre-ness against Vial Tribal preboard (I purposely designed the deck to counteract flaws in other ways).
I'm not overloaded as badly on 2cc drops as you think, to need to over-protect against Daze, and regardless, I fail to see how 2cc drops are worse than 3cc drops like Cunning Wish and Vindicate or 4cc drops like Elspeth and WoG. That particular argument vs Counterbalance Landstill is just as relevant against other Landstill lists. In fact, I often to wait till I have 3 mana to drop Counterbalance if I see my opponent is playing blue, and I use my mana on turn 2 to either hold open UU to play Counterspell or do whatever... Daze on turn 2 Standstill is just as relevant as Daze on turn 2 Counterbalance anyway. I'll be humble though, since this is all a comparison with your Spell Snares anyway; yes, my turn 2 Counterspell/Counterbalance can be Daze'd if I try to Counterspell Goyf or resolve Counterbalance, where your Spell Snare is unmolested. Luckily, I do run StP and FoW.
(Keep in mind that my Counterbalances are simply replacing your Spell Snares... and I truly believe that the tempo you create off of Spell Snare is not worth the power trade off from my Counterbalance. Also keep in mind that Spell Snare only effects 2cc spells, which Counterbalance also handles in 2cc spells as well as 0cc, 1cc, 4cc, and sometimes 3cc or 5cc. So you saying Counterbalance is bad vs Goblins is no different than me telling you that Spell Snare is bad vs Goblins)
I'm not much worried about EE. Recurring EE is a different story, and I'll agree with you that it can be very problematic. Not gonna argue about that, you're right. It blows up my Decree and Elspeth tokens, my Counterbalances, and my O Rings. I don't see recurring EE that often and usually it takes so long for that lock to get setup that I've CounterTop lock'd and/or won the game before that happens (in the case of CounterTop lock, I realize that EE removes it; I mean that I'm so far ahead by that point that even removing the CounterTop lock doesn't bring them back into the game). Factory (+ Elspeth if possible) is my means of beating recurring EE. Or simply O Ring'ing it early if the opponent can't cast and pop it right away and does drop it early (happens once in a great while). Again, I agree with you here.
How is Counterbalance not universal? It answers all spells 0cc, 1cc, and 2cc... it sometimes answers 3cc, 4cc, and 5cc spells. Your Spell Snares answer 2cc spells. Your Vindicates can meet my O Rings since they fill the same role, and I could just as easily splash black to replace them but I have my reasoning for why I prefer a more consistent U/W manabase.
If you want me to answer why my deck is better than Threshold or Dreadstill, when all I'm doing is replacing Spell Snare with Counterbalance, I'm going to ask you the same damn question. Do you really think you benefit more from the tempo of Spell Snare than I do from the power of Counterbalance? What makes Spell Snare better in Landstill than it does in Tempo Thresh and often in Dreadstill? Almost every single question you keep asking me is applicable to every other Landstill list, not just mine. Do you not see the falacy in most of your arguments against Counterbalance?
I completely disagree with you when you say that both Threshold and Dreadstill have more answers for a larger variety of decks than my Landstill. Landstill is a control deck, and rather than running aggro to play beatdown, runs more control to answer a larger variety of decks. Again, this comes down to being one of those arguments that you are making that applies not only to my version of Landstill, but all Landstill, and is a very idiotic question in the first place.
You're looking at this the wrong way maybe.
What we have are some very small differences.
I believe Top is the best card in the deck, so I run 4. You probably run less and some other draw instead.
I had to slightly tweak my curve to accomodate Counterbalance, so a few numbers (like Counterspell being a 4-of) are set to accomodate this. This is also the reason I run 4 Standstill rather than 3 Standstill 1 Jace.
You believe Spell Snare > Counterbalance, I 100% disagree. I feel that Counterbalance is a powerhouse of a card and offers to Landstill everything Landstill wants; card advantage, repeatable countermagic, and a card that carries you straight from the mid game to the late game (and occasionally even from the early game to the late game). You feel that Spell Snare is necessary for early tempo to survive you into the mid game where you feel that you have adequate enough control elements to make it to the late game.
You can keep coming at me with objections/rebuttals all day, I'll keep coming back at you. If you wanna help me rather than hinder me, just ask relevant questions about the deck itself, particularly about certain cards or matchups so that I can add more, better, detailed info to my primer.
Anyways, don't take any of my reply as a personal attack. Hopefully this can spawn positive and productive innovation. And please, if you get the time to be able to do so, play my decklist for a little bit, even if it's just on MWS. I've played the Spell Snare versions and other versions of Landstill, and I think it would make for better discussions between the two of us if you could playtest my list, even for just a miniscule amount of time, as well. I appreciate it. =]
Everyone, please disregard the following post. This is a reply to Mossivo. The PM would not allow me to send more than 5000 characters and this is 13000 something characters long. Once Mossivo has read this and replied to me in PM, I will delete this post. I did not include quote tags in this post, so some of it will not make sense to you. Then again, it's not supposed to. Everyone but Mossivo, please disregard the following post.
Re: [DTW] UW(x) Landstill
wow i actually read the whole thing. I have to agree that i think counterbalance can be pretty good in the proper variant of landstill. Even though it's been the engine for aggro control i believe that it can also be a powerful control piece for a pure control deck like landstill. I don't think spell snare and counterbalance are comparable though. I feel that spell snare is situational and can be used well against decks like merfolk with key 2 drops, thus hindering their tempo. Counterbalance on the other hand feels like a piece in a puzzle that's there to finally lock out the opponent, with wraths and other spells doing what counterbalance does not.
I think that there's a lot of potential for both versions of landstill to do well. They're just variants that do things differently but in the end we just want to win
Re: [DTW] UW(x) Landstill
Hanni, if you make primer for your u-w landstill, could you write some sideboarding plans against decks you usually see = tier 1 / some tier 2 decks. Thanks! :)
Re: [DTW] UW(x) Landstill
@ whiteshepherdman
Counterbalance and Spell Snare are comparable. The spot in the deck that both are run in are competing spots; you don't run both.
Both have advantages and disadvantages. What needs to be determined are the pros for each and the cons, and which one has more pros and less cons. This is easier said than actually applied.
The biggest factor to consider here is what matchups does each help, and which matchup does each not help. For a quick example, Counterbalance improves Aggro Loam and Goyf/Sligh Burn. Spell Snare improves Merfolk and Threshold. But Spell Snare improves Goyf Sligh/Burn too, and Counterbalance improves Threshold too. This is when it gets tricky. If they both improve the matchup, which one improves it more? What matchups are more important to be improved than others?
I feel like, between a 2/3 game set, that my Merfolk matchup is awesome. For that, I don't see why maindeck Counterbalance is so bad. I feel like, without Counterbalance maindeck, that my Aggro Loam matchup in a 2/3 set is horrible. +1 for Counterbalance. (This is only 1 such example out of hundreds of examples.)
These kind of distinctions are very in depth, and cover way too much playing field to explain in only a little detail.
What I do know, is that throughout my playtesting, I've found greater success in maindeck Counterbalance than anything else I've ever tried. I've found that U/W Counterbalance Landstill (specifically) has been the most consistent, most powerful deck I've ever played in Legacy. What mind boggles me is that no one, aside from Citrus-God aka Anti-American and very few others, has even acknowledged that the deck is even decent, let alone very strong. I keep hearing nothing but skepticism and negative feedback.
Hopefully when I finish the primer, which is like 5% done and is already 6 Word pages long, it'll be able to get some attention and some thorough feedback. Hopefully people start to actually playtest with it. I'm sure once they do, they'll realize that it is a contender, and get played some. I don't get to play in tournaments, so I can't put up results myself. Hopefully some people pilot it somewhere, and if they are halfway decent, I know it will place. Once that happens, I'll feel much better about my time investment with the deck. That's my goal, and I'm gonna see it through.
Quote:
Hanni, if you make primer for your u-w landstill, could you write some sideboarding plans against decks you usually see = tier 1 / some tier 2 decks. Thanks! :)
I plan on including it all. Every last bit. If anyone has anything they want me to address in the primer, feel free to let me know. Negative/constructive criticism is very welcome at this point, since I want to address everything.
Re: [DTW] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hanni
I plan on including it all. Every last bit. If anyone has anything they want me to address in the primer, feel free to let me know. Negative/constructive criticism is very welcome at this point, since I want to address everything.
That would be very nice. When i pick a new deck, there goes quite a bit time when i do right decisions when sideboarding against different decks. So that sideboard guide will be helpful. What is your bad matchups? I guess dredge before sideboarding and b-x decks what plays discard and manadenial? Goblins could be hard to handle if they get fast enought start too..
Re: [DTW] UW(x) Landstill
The worst matchup is Dredge. They can play straight through everything I run and make a lethal 2/2 army. My spells are mostly worthless against them. I accept that it is a bad matchup. I don't even bother with graveyard hate in the sideboard, because it is literally the only matchup I bring graveyard hate in for. I typically bring in Path to Exile and Meddling Mage. My reasoning here is that Path to Exile + Swords to Plowshares answer Ichorid nicely (and Putrid Imp's and Narcomoeba's too). If they have no guys to get 2/2 tokens for, they can't get 2/2 tokens. Meddling Mage names Cabal Therapy so that they have no sac outlets to make 2/2 tokens and so they cannot rape my hand. They also put up a clock and can block to destroy bridges (or I can WoG them if I live long enough). Pray to god they get some slow draws or have to mulligan to 4, because this is the worst matchup.
B/x decks aren't horrible matchups, but they aren't excellent ones either. As a control deck, you value the cards in hand and your lands in play. It depends on what kind of B/x deck you're playing against. If it's control, I've found it to be a solid matchup. If it's aggro/control (Wasteland/Sinkhole/Vindicate/Stifle), you have to hope you don't fall into landscrew before you can answer their guys. If you make it past the early turns, you'll typically win because their disruption becomes less effective and you have access to the rest of your removal. CounterTop is strong here, removal obviously, and Elspeth is a bad ass. I'll list more about this when I can.
Goblins is rough preboard. You have limited answers to turn 1 Vials and Lackey's, and those are both very bad for us to not answer. Surviving the intital rush is mandatory but not always possible. If we make it to the late game, cards like Elspeth, Decree, and Wrath of God are very valuable. Countering any card advantage guys they have is very important; Ringleader, Wort, and even Matron. Keep your removal aimed on Piledriver's and mana cheaters (Frogtosser/Warchief) to slow them down. Not gonna sugar coat it, the matchup is difficult preboard. Winnable, but difficult. Postboard, with Counterbalance coming out for BEB, and 2 Standstills coming out for 2 Path to Exile, we have a total of 10 1cc spot removal spells. Makes the matchup very easy. I've been considering squeezing in Oblivion Rings instead of PtE to handle Vial, but I'm on the fence with. 10 1cc spot removal spells is so delicious that I've been finding great success with it.
Other than that, there's no glaring weaknesses. That's what makes the deck so great. You can 2-0 Aggro Loam. You can 2-0 Burn. You can 2-0 Goyf Sligh. You can 2-0 Zoo. You can 2-0 Threshold variants. You can 2-0 combo. All of these were previously not so good. Merfolk, between a 2/3 game set, I've done very well against, same goes for decks like Survival and Dragon Stompy. However, rather than make what some may be thinking as outlandish claims, I'd rather just explain everything in the primer all at one time so I don't exhaust all of my energy. It could take me some time to write it up, but I'm going to dedicate alot of spare time to it. I promise I won't disappoint.
Re: [DTW] UW(x) Landstill
Hanni, if I were you I'd edit out those parts of your earlier post that are in bold, it's worth reading and I feel like the discussion present would benefit the thread. Don't keep the best discussion to yourselves guys! Just keep it civil.
BTW, you're right about the slot that CB takes, I thought it was counterspell for so long, but it's definitely the Spell Snare slot. When I was debating the slots with myself I came to the same conclusion, though I do like spell snare for various reasons, I agree 100%.
Re: [DTW] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rsaunder
Hanni, if I were you I'd edit out those parts of your earlier post that are in bold, it's worth reading and I feel like the discussion present would benefit the thread. Don't keep the best discussion to yourselves guys! Just keep it civil.
I love how it said that it's directed towards everybody except Moss. Taco, Bardo and I were totally the ones to originally bring up the concept. Especially Bardo. But w/e.
Re: [DTW] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citrus-God
I love how it said that it's directed towards everybody except Moss. Taco, Bardo and I were totally the ones to originally bring up the concept. Especially Bardo. But w/e.
Way back, with that like UWg build. It was an interesting deck, but it really died out for a while. Like the last year.
Re: [DTW] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
I love how it said that it's directed towards everybody except Moss. Taco, Bardo and I were totally the ones to originally bring up the concept. Especially Bardo. But w/e.
It's directed towards Moss as a response to a PM he sent me, and I couldn't fit it in the PM because it was too long. I really wanted him to read it, so I posted it on here. The semi-flaming isn't a personal attack towards him, his beliefs, or even his viewpoints. I was simply responding in the same tone that the original PM's were sent to me in, and he also clearly stated that he meant no intentional flaming. I'm not angry, and I'm sure he's not angry.
_________________________________________________________________________
_________________________________________________________________________
I was rolling on Adderall last night/this morning and I had an epiphany. I was taking a break from writing the U/W Counterbalance Landstill primer and decided to playtest a new deck I just designed, a variation of U/G/b Intuition Loam. For reference, the decklist can be found here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...34&postcount=1
I modeled the deck directly after my U/W Counterbalance Landstill deck, adding some elements of ITF and some elements of Aggro Loam. It plays a very similar gameplan, except it's more powerful and has more answers to stuff, but has less overall consistency and is alot slower.
Anyways, I know now why people are playing with Spell Snares, extra Path's in the main, and cutting Counterspells. It's because of your manabases (and your lowered count of Brainstorms/Tops).
I played 10 straight games against Canadian Thresh with the U/G/b Intuition Loam deck. I won 6 and lost 4, and the 6 that I won were so very close; many games I was at 3 or less life and would have died the next turn (a few games I was brought down to 1 life). The games I did lose were complete shut outs by my opponent.
Take this hypothetical scenario for a moment (which does occur quite frequently):
You're playing either 3c or 4c Landstill and your opponent is playing Canadian Thresh. Your opponent goes first and plays a Tropical Island and passes the turn. On your turn, you play a fetchland which is met by Stifle (you play the fetchland because all you have are nonbasic lands in hand, whether duals or colorless producers). You pass the turn, the opponent plays a Volcanic Island and casts Tarmogoyf, which you have no FoW for. On your turn, you play a Tundra and pass the turn. On your opponent's turn, he casts Ponder, and then Wastes your Tundra. In response, you StP the Goyf but StP is met by Daze. The opponent swings for 3, and passes the turn. The opponent is sitting on 3 lands and you're at 0. That WoG and EE in hand are useless to you right now, and your stumbling to assemble your manabase. Counterspell is worthless for you, let alone Counterbalance. By the time you stabilize the manabase, you're already dead.
NOW I see why people are increasing their amount of early tempo cards in their 3c and 4c lists. You simply cannot keep up with decks like Merfolk, Tempo Thresh, and probably even Goblins. Counterbalance will never work in a 3c or 4c list effectively against these strategies, at least not as well as Spell Snare or Path to Exile, so on and so forth.
I've tried 3c Counterbalance Landstill long ago, and just shifted to 2c through time without noticing it because it improved the deck. I didn't realize that the current metagame pressures were the reason why everyone disliked Counterbalance so much. I cannot believe I didn't see this before. It's the manabase! Worst part is, most of the 3c and 4c decks aren't even running the full 4 Brainstorm and 4 Top, which are essential for early manabase stabilization.
The U/W manabase allows the deck to run 4 Counterspells and 4 Counterbalances without nearly as much consequence. With 7 basics and only two color sources necessary to provide for, you shrug off this Stifle/Waste/Daze combination. You almost always have more than 1 basic in your opener, and with Brainstorm/Top to dig for more, you can play seemlessly through the first several turns of the game before needing to drop Factory, Tundra, or a fetchland. The ability to ramp up mana faster through manabase hate is why Counterspell works well for me, and why I have no problems getting early Counterbalances into play. Of course Spell Snare still hits these, but it's so much less of a blow when I can come back with StP, O Ring... hell, even WoG. My U/W manabase transitions me easily into the mid game, where I then take full control with CounterTop, WoG, Elspeth, so on and so forth. In 3c and 4c lists, you can't even get there without the aid of Spell Snare and often Path to Exile's in addition to Swords to Plowshares.
(I'm seriously having a breakthrough right now.)
The manabase strength doesn't even stop there. Against decks like Aggro Loam, Team America, and even other matchups, you cannot understand how much these matchups dramatically change by something as simple as running 2c rather than 3c. It's not even the number of basics, since many 3c lists do in fact run 4 basics. It's that fact that you don't need to try to assemble all 3 colors, sometimes double of a certain color, with nothing but basics. It's that fact that with only 4 basics of 3 different colors, you often have the wrong color basic in your opener for what you need and are heavily reliant on fetchlands to grab the right basics. Then, when you do have to play that Undeground Sea turn 2 or fetchland turn 3 so that you can play Vindicate on turn 3, they hit you with Wasteland or Stifle and your black source is gone again.
Landstill's biggest obstacle to overcome, as a control deck, is to make it to the mid-late game where it has enough lands and colored mana sources to cast its powerful cards, where it simply wins by overpowering and out-card-advantaging its opponent's. How can that even be accomplished when it's stumbling to build up it's manabase against the deck that attack it? No wonder U/W/r Walkerstill has become mildly successful; it's spells operate on a slightly lower curve!
I now see why the naysayers have hated Counterbalance in Landstill for so long. First it was the fact that the curve wasn't good enough; until decks like ITF and even new CounterTop Thresh dropped their curves down to around 12/12 1cc/2cc (which is what I also run). Then, the metagame shifted, and tempo manabase denial strategies started to tear through the metagame. After that, it became a matter of unplayability in the 3c and 4c lists.
So in summarization, the difference between 2c and 3c or 4c is two parts, a) total number of lands you can put into play early, and b) access to the correct color sources early.
I truly and honestly believe that, in this metagame, rather than run cards like Path to Exile and Spell Snare maindeck just to make it to the midgame, that the manabase should simply be U/W. Toss in Counterbalance, and no wonder [Counterbalance Landstill] works so well for me and not for others. Honestly, how many players saying no to Counterbalance actually tested my exact decklist, and how many playtested it in their 3c and 4c lists?
Anyway, I have a whole lot more to say about a whole lot more topics, but that's what Adderall does. If anyone wants to chat me up on yahoo messenger while I'm online before I go to work, it's fiendish_nature86
Let's talk Landstill!
Re: [DTW] UW(x) Landstill
I agree in most part with Hanni.
Most meta features deck like Canadian, Merfolk et Goblin/Zoo.
All are fast and most of them run mana disruption such as stifle, wasteland, rishadan port.
For a deck like Landstill to perform, obviously we need to get to 4+ mana as soon as possible. For that to work, I've always played 6+ basic lands deck. Obviously, when you are playing 3c, playing that many basics can hurt. That's why we need "mana fixer"
I play 4 brainstorm
3 sensei's divining top
1 crucible of worlds
1 eternal dragon
SDT is probably the best cards in the MU where you are getting disrupted.
COW and Eternal Dragon both serve to stabilize Manabase. I am still hesitating between 2 cow and 0 dragon, but I have found both to have their advantage. Most people disregard E.Dragon as a kill condition. But let me tell you that in the VERY late game, that guy can come in handy. Especially in the mirror match up or when both decks are in top-deck mode. E.Dragon usually wins me 1 game in every tournament (and I can't count the number of time where him fetching a plain saved my ass!)
Edragon costs 2 mana to get a plain
COW cost 3 mana to get you a land.
Cow can be destroyed.
Edragon can be stifled.
But I disgress. I wanted to know if Hanni could post his list, as it does seem interesting
Lets not forget CB also drastically improve Combo MU for LAndstill :) But I'm wondering if the loss of Black (Vindicate) could hurt the control mirror. And overall, Vindicates are usually very good at answering any threat. They can serve as a creature removal, planeswalker removal, or as a tempo gain by destroying lands of an opponnent already light on mana.
Robert
Re: [DTW] UW(x) Landstill
U/W Counterbalance Landstill
Kaezurstill
// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [U] Tundra
4 [7E] Island (3)
3 [P3] Plains (2)
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
// Spells
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [ST] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
3 [REW] Wrath of God
2 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [REW] Wrath of God
SB: 2 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
SB: 4 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 4 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
The 1 WoG in the sideboard could potentially be 1 Humility.
Re: [DTW] UW(x) Landstill
Whats the argument for no Wasteland? That's the only thing that seems crazy out of place to me. I like to be better than other decks under an early Standstill, Wasteland is usually a big part of that.
All those 4's look like it should at least be consistent.
Re: [DTW] UW(x) Landstill
The first thing that struck me when considering your list is
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
3 [REW] Wrath of God
2 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
The lack of EE. I can understand that EE @ 2 can be pretty weak (you don't have access to a third colour). In my 3c landstill, EE is gold.
Most list run
4 stp
2-3 wog
2-3 EE
0-2 vindicate
0-1 humility.
for a total of about 10-12 removal md.
I feel your list might lack of answers to board. (Or at least, lack of versatility. Most, if not all your removals are aimed at creatures. O-Ring gives you some versatility, but that's it)
How do you feel about running 0 Wasteland?
Merfolk deck, imo, is one of my hardest MU.
You get an improvement in Mana base because of 2c (but my black is only a small splash).
You run more basics 7 vs my 6, but you run 8 fetches, vs my 6. Does this open a vulnerability to stifle and life loss?
You lose EE, so almost no answer to turn 1 Aether vial.
I think you said that it was a good MU for you. Am I correct? If so, how?
Linked to the fact that you run 0 wasteland, how good can you abuse Standstill in the MU where opponents have man land?
No fact or fiction? Is it because you want to keep the curve low?
Looking at your sideboard
SB: 1 [REW] Wrath of God
SB: 2 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
SB: 4 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 4 [b] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
I see 7 more removal (and 4 more for red based deck). My guess are that WOG and PTE are best against aggro deck. While Oblivion ring is best in control and aggro/control.
You have 0 graveyard removal. Only Ichorid truly beats you because of that.
About your MU
Combo : I can see CB improving drastically your combo Match, maybe even positive pre-board. And even better post board.
Threshold deck : Landstill usually just win against Threshold.
Canadian thres : 2c gives you stability, but you have a lot of fetchland. Lack of EE make Mongoose even stronger. You have WOG, but all landstill have WOG. A resolved CB in this MU is generally game if you can stick it to play. I can see a slight improvement, but that is compensated by the loss of removal in the form of EE.
Merfolk : Lack of wasteland, and lack of EE to answer Vial seem to weaken your MU. I have never been able to test CB against Merfolk. They always have 1st turn Aether vial :O
Zoo : CB can be a very interesting tool against Zoo deck. Their curve is extremely low and can easily be shut down by CB + Top. However, they play MD Pridemage that can keep those CB of yours out of the game until you can find a sword to remove him. I can see an improvement in this game by CB.
Burn : Needless to say that maindeck CB can win you the game. But an addition of Cunning wish could be interesting to your list. You could always use the Pulse of the fields to recover from the red zone.
So overall, in my opinion :
-You lose EE, one of the most versatile tool in Landstill
-Your mana base is more stable than most lists, but you also increased the number of fetches.
-CB improves some MU.
Personally, I'd like to tweak your list (but don't have time at the moment to think about it). Here are some ideas, hoping they can help you.
-more removals
-secondary source of Card advantage in the form of Fact or fiction
-Versatility : Cunning wish?
Re: [DTW] UW(x) Landstill
Wasteland does make Factory better under Standstill, but so does Decree. Wasteland and Decree are competing for the same spot. I prefer Decree because it cantrips, is an additional win condition rather than a supplement, and is basically an instant win if the game goes long. However, that is my preference. -2 DoJ +2 Wasteland is also acceptable.
The amount of 4-of's, especially with 4 Brainstorm/4 Top, make the deck rediculously consistent. That's what I've been saying about the deck all along.
EE is a great card, in other Landstill versions. It just doesn't do enough in mine. 2 colors means it's capping out at 2, which just doesn't answer enough anymore. With it's X manacost, it adds nothing to the Counterbalance curve. When popped for 2, it removes my own Counterbalances.
9 removal spells actually works out fine for me with 4 Brainstorm/4 Top since my chance of seeing removal is more like running 10 or 11 in comparison to lists that run 2 or 0 Top's and/or less than 4 Brainstorm. Also, Counterbalance's reusable countermagic power makes up for the lack of removal; you have enough removal to clear the board early and enough countermagic (especially with 4 Counterspell) to keep guys off the table mid-late.
Quote:
How do you feel about running 0 Wasteland?
Merfolk deck, imo, is one of my hardest MU.
You get an improvement in Mana base because of 2c (but my black is only a small splash).
You run more basics 7 vs my 6, but you run 8 fetches, vs my 6. Does this open a vulnerability to stifle and life loss?
You lose EE, so almost no answer to turn 1 Aether vial.
Wasteland is plausible against Merfolk and Tempo Thresh heavy metagames, as a replacement for Decree of Justice, since it's an additional land drop.
Merfolk is not that hard of a matchup for me. Ichorid is by far my hardest one.
My 8 fetches to your 6 does open me up to Stifle more, but it's a necessary evil. I need the shuffle effects for Top. Considering I run 7 basics, consisting of only 2 colors, I rarely find myself worrying about my manabase. An occasionally Stifle here and there doesn't hurt, unless it's your first or second land drop of the game and the opponent gets a blazingly fast start. Luckily, vs Merfolk, they are not as fast as Canadian Threshold so you have time to stabilize if they do pop an early fetchland. However, I run 8 nonbasics, 4 being Factories... how many nonbasics do you run? If you run at least 10, all you're doing is trading my two additional weakness to Stifle lands to your two additional weakness to Wasteland lands. Life loss is mostly irrelevant.
I do lose EE, and it's ability to answer Vial on turn 2. O Ring answers it on turn 3 though (of course Cursecatcher and Daze withholding), so I'm only losing a little bit of tempo there. If I'm on the play and don't get hit/affected by Stifles/Wastes, the opponent only gets 1 counter on Vial before I'm potentially able to blow it up. Of course, that is ideal, and more often than not I'm waiting till 4 land drops to do so, but that's only accelerating them into a few extra critters, which one may have met my StP. Vial makes for fast midgame starts but can be slow during the opening; I have plenty of time to WoG before shit gets crazy. On contrast, I'm much more fearful of a Lackey opening vs Goblins if I don't have a turn 1 answer. Why? Because it's a much faster start.
My sideboard just depends. I bring in 2 O Ring for alot of matchups, including Aggro Loam, CounterTop Thresh, and others. The Path's come in against Zoo and Merfolk, and I may bring them in for Goblins and Goyf Sligh depending (I flop around on this). WoG comes in against CounterTop since 4cc is out of their CB range, and it also is used against decks like Survival Elves and other mass horde decks that I cannot easily 1-for-1 with StP and PtE. This could potentially be 1 Humility.
Ichorid is the only matchup I'd bring graveyard hate in for, so I don't run it. I drop 4 Counterbalance, 2 Decree of Justice, and 2 Oblivion Ring for 4 Path to Exile and 4 Meddling Mage. My reasoning there is two parts, a) StP/PtE keep them off of Putrid Imp's and Ichorid's, so they can't attack for damage, they can't sac them at EOT to Cabal Therapy, and they can't get Zombie tokens for sac'ing them regardless, and b) Meddling Mage names Cabal Therapy so they can't sac Narcomoeba's, getting Zombie tokens, and they can't rape my hand. If they can't put Zombie tokens into play or mount an offensive, they aren't killing me. Early FoW and possibly Counterspell can stop them from super accelerating into a turn 1 or 2 combo. WoG on my own Meddling Mage removes their bridges. If I can survive long enough to drop an Elspeth, chances are I won the matchup. Still, a bad matchup regardless. No point in boarding narrow sideboard for a matchup I rarely ever see. Keep in mind that when I say narrow, I don't mean that Relic cannot come in for other matchups, I mean that there are no other matchups where I actually want to bring Relic in for.
Quote:
About your MU
Combo : I can see CB improving drastically your combo Match, maybe even positive pre-board. And even better post board.
Combo is one of my best matchups, preboard and postboard.
Quote:
Threshold deck : Landstill usually just win against Threshold.
Not every build beats Threshold that easily. Luckily, this one does.
Quote:
Canadian thres : 2c gives you stability, but you have a lot of fetchland. Lack of EE make Mongoose even stronger. You have WOG, but all landstill have WOG. A resolved CB in this MU is generally game if you can stick it to play. I can see a slight improvement, but that is compensated by the loss of removal in the form of EE.
I've yet to lose against Canadian Threshold as of yet. Sometimes they get me very low in life before I manage to stabilize, and I'm sure I'm bound to lose a game from time to time at some point, but so far I've always stabilized and dropped Elspeth or CounterTop ftw. My extra fetchlands =/= your extra nonbasics. Lack of EE makes Goose stronger, but they do run Stifle for that. I just try to block with Factory early on until I can unload a Wrath of God or an Elspeth. Usually early Mongooses stay 1/1 for a while so the clock isn't too threatening. By the time they get big, I can typically drop Elspeth or WoG. Other Landstill lists may run these cards too, but me being U/W makes it easier for me to ramp to 4-5 mana to get one of these cards to stick before I'm dead.
Quote:
Merfolk : Lack of wasteland, and lack of EE to answer Vial seem to weaken your MU. I have never been able to test CB against Merfolk. They always have 1st turn Aether vial :O
Counterbalance is decent to mediocre against Merfolk depending on the situation. I lack EE to early Vial, but still have O Ring or simply just FoW. They are a rather slow aggro deck, and when their mana denial doesn't do as much as it needs to do, I can push through into the mid-late game and answer them before they kill me. CB sucks against them if they have Vial, but if they don't have Vial, CB is alright. If they don't have Vial and you resolve a WoG with a CounterTop on board (or you resolve a CounterTop afterwards), you can push them so far out of the game that they cannot come back and you win. So CB is not worthless here, just situational (rare to counter 3cc spells though). Islandwalk is a bitch, so keeping Lord of Atlantis off the table so that Elspeth and Decree tokens can block is a must. I don't have Wasteland, but I do have Decree... and again, in Merfolk heavy metagames, you can drop 2 Decree for 2 Wasteland. Postboard, you gain Path to Exile, which is a savage beating against them. I have lost a few games against Merfolk before, but I have never lost a 2/3 game set vs them yet.
Quote:
Burn : Needless to say that maindeck CB can win you the game. But an addition of Cunning wish could be interesting to your list. You could always use the Pulse of the fields to recover from the red zone.
I 2-0 Burn all the time. Contrary to the normal use of Counterbalance (i.e not a crutch), it is in fact a crutch in this matchup. Resolving Counterbalance as soon as possible is what you want to dig for everytime. Once it's active, you win the game. Without it, you have to hope to stall through FoW and Counterspell until you can drop Elspeth and race with Elspeth + Factory. Postboard, you bring in both Blue Elemental Blast and Meddling Mage. -2 DoJ, -3 WoG, -2 O Ring, -1 StP, +4 BEB +4 Mage. You now have 15 1cc spells and 16 2cc spells to make Counterbalance blind reveals sick, FoW/Counterspell/Counterbalance/BEB turns them from a 4 turn clock into like a 10 turn clock (or a lockout), Mage can draw out removal (esentially causing them to waste their burn, making Meddling Mage read: UW: Gain 3 life), while it beats for 2, possibly shuts down a burn spell temporarily, and can be hit by your own StP in resp to gain 2 life (net of 5 if they Bolt'd it). Increasing the clock against "combo" is good, and you run an assload of blue spells to pitch to FoW. Sometimes you lose game 1, but I never lose a 2/3 set. Ever.
Quote:
So overall, in my opinion :
-You lose EE, one of the most versatile tool in Landstill
-Your mana base is more stable than most lists, but you also increased the number of fetches.
-CB improves some MU.
Personally, I'd like to tweak your list (but don't have time at the moment to think about it). Here are some ideas, hoping they can help you.
-more removals
-secondary source of Card advantage in the form of Fact or fiction
-Versatility : Cunning wish?
I can live without EE. Vindicate too, for that matter.
8 fetches is pretty standard for me in just about any deck, especially if I'm running Top.
CB improves almost every matchup besides a select few, like Goblins, Dragon Stompy, and Ichorid. The degree to which it improves the matchup is typically different, but it improves some seriously negative matchups so drastically that I cannot for the life of me understand why no one runs Counterbalance maindeck (well, aside from it being horrible in 3c and 4c lists, of course).
I answered the more removals question.
Counterbalance is a secondary form of card advantage. WoG, Standstill, and even Elspeth and Decree of Justice do this as well. Fact or Fiction is a great card but it does not fit into the Counterbalance curve.
I hate Cunning Wish.
Keep the questions coming, I want more content for the primer.
