[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

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Originally Posted by Ralf

Yes Storm is a bad MU. Discard will not always help against a good storm player as they have access to brainstorm and they will likely hide their key spell. Furthermore, with PIF, they can replay every discarded sorcery or instant spells.
Take their tutor (IT, BW), AD or mana boost (DR, CR) depending of their hand / if not go for discard spell.

AD -> LED at EOT or during upkeep.

Your key spell here is "Ooze". Game 1 if you have time to stick him, you will likely win as they have no answer for him. So keep him under discard pressure and land an Ooze. Start eating cantrips and mana boost in the yard.

Game 2, you will likely face spot & mass removal (pyroclasm, chain of vapor, massacre, toxic deluge) -> Same plan as game 1. Surgical extraction on mana boost/tutor will give you a lot of time. Stick an ooze and kill him.

Against dredge -> Ooze again !!!
they will likely bring some mass removal such as firestorm, maybe chain etc..

With Slaughter I would name "Ichorid".
On a blind therapy, turn 1 -> call LED because if they have one in hand, you are likely dead by turn 2 or 3 maximum.

IMO, Worldspine wurm >>>> Hornet Queen.

From my perspective, if you want to fight against combo, you should diversify your threats. For example, lower the discard count by 1, add a DRS to the board -> you will boost your win % against grave.deck strategy.

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/signed

i already see ooze winning games for me.
i like the plan of the sb cabal therapy to get it with a burning wish.
most of the time i board 1 out to be able to wish for it, should maybe try it from start on.
but i would still run a sb thoughtseize, even if there are md ones.

i am a big fan of deathrite shaman, as i think it's not just a big helper against graveyard-based decks, already thought about adding 1 to the board (md can become a little bit tricky, but if my meta will shift to more flyers i can see me cutting an elder/wood elves.

also i have to say that the whole time i am playing scapeshift now primetime-bigeval titan was very inconspicuous ... all my games i reached titanland it didn't matter much as those games were already won at this time ... but i'm still not sure to cut it for something else ... it doesn't dissappoint me, but i also don't feel like it's essential.

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Originally Posted by MasterHerC

also i have to say that the whole time i am playing scapeshift now primetime-bigeval titan was very inconspicuous ... all my games i reached titanland it didn't matter much as those games were already won at this time ... but i'm still not sure to cut it for something else ... it doesn't dissappoint me, but i also don't feel like it's essential.

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I was in the same place but I've since come around after it won a lot of games in DC for me, it really does something that no other card can. It doesn't always NEED to do that, since it will sometimes win just by being huge, but there are a lot more situations that you can only get out of with exactly Primeval Titan- life totals high enough that you need to make your Scapeshift bigger, you need to get Valakut going to deal with a planeswalker or troublesome creature, you need to pressure them in more than one way by putting in a huge guy AND threatening Valakut, etc. I don't think i'll be cutting it any time soon. He even gives you approximately infinite shuffles with Top if you need to dig up an answer- Titan into 2 fetches lets you see 12 cards.

hey;) today its my first hard touch with this deck when i start test on cocka. i have two question for you guys.
1. which version of Nic Fit is better :
A. Scapeshift
B.ecuring Nightmare
C.Birthing Pod
2.this is possible to make this deck so competitive to try put it on 1st place on big event like bom or scg?

this is first two but important question for me. then i will ask about decklist when i build my own.

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Originally Posted by Cire_dk

The split has been suggested many times in this thread and it does not work. That is why some players put the deck they are currently playing in their signature so we all know what they might be talking about. I do agree it is very confusing to read Nic Fit threads but since we nic fitters are good at confusing people we all fit in really well :smile:

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Uh... Why doesn't it work? The distinctions between even the main three archetypes (I'm referring to BUG, Junk, and P-Fire while discounting only Birthing Pod and Scapeshift, where the differences are stark and obvious) are bigger than the distinctions between BUG Tempo and BUG Control. This is like saying splitting the threads of RUG Delver, UWR Delver, and BUG Delver doesn't work either. The shell is the same for all of these Nic Fit builds, just as the tempo shell is the same amongst these other decks. They all deserve their own threads. :wink:

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Originally Posted by guelahpapyrus

Uh... Why doesn't it work? The distinctions between even the main three archetypes (I'm referring to BUG, Junk, and P-Fire while discounting only Birthing Pod and Scapeshift, where the differences are stark and obvious) are bigger than the distinctions between BUG Tempo and BUG Control. This is like saying splitting the threads of RUG Delver, UWR Delver, and BUG Delver doesn't work either. The shell is the same for all of these Nic Fit builds, just as the tempo shell is the same amongst these other decks. They all deserve their own threads. :wink:

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agree. like i wrote up. BUG / POD FIT / ScapeFit....and others is so diffrent strategy...and people here have to be focus to find posts only target their topic.

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Originally Posted by HardBrain

agree. like i wrote up. BUG / POD FIT / ScapeFit....and others is so diffrent strategy...and people here have to be focus to find posts only target their topic.

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This has been discussed several times before, but it was agreed that the intermingling of Nic Fit archetypes is beneficial overall.

Any tips on the Recurring Nightmare GB/w builds? Looking for something consistent to sleeve up.

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Originally Posted by Cire_dk

The split has been suggested many times in this thread and it does not work. That is why some players put the deck they are currently playing in their signature so we all know what they might be talking about. I do agree it is very confusing to read Nic Fit threads but since we nic fitters are good at confusing people we all fit in really well :smile:

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or we start playing with another version of the deck.
I switched to scapewish for the last two events. Pretty much Ari's list.
1-4 (sat) Lost to sneak/show in 3 (beating a turn one and turn 3 show), lost to RUG delver in 2. Got smashed by dredge in 2. Beat TES in 2, then lost to ANT in 3.
2-2 Today. Beat Goblins in 3, Punishing Jund in 3, Lost to sneak/show in 2. Lost to punishing nic fit in 2. (ran out of mountains so I couldn't kill him :( )

I have another event Sat and Wed. I think I just need more practice with the deck before I switch back to my Junk Wish version.

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Originally Posted by Koby

Any tips on the Recurring Nightmare GB/w builds? Looking for something consistent to sleeve up.

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1. Consider playing Punishing Fire instead if you search for consistency and value. Red blasts and Slaughter Games are important tools that White just doesn't have and Punishing Fire can be nice value, too. I'd recommend my signature list.

2. If you go for GBW nonetheless make sure to play Sigarda. She is the best reason to play White. Also prepare to lose if one of your opponents casts Jace TMS because GBW can't ever beat him.

Tao, i like your list, and i made some my own changes. this is playable deck or destroy this deck and make him weak??:
GUYS
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Thragtusk
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
1 Primeval Titan
1 Acidic Slime
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Scavenging Ooze
OPTIONS
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Liliana of the Veil
SPELLS
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
MONEY
1 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Badlands
1 Bayou
2 Swamp
3 Forest
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Kessig Wolf Run

1 Grave Titan
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Slaughter Games
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Chains of Mephistopheles - love it vs elves/omnitell/jacedecks

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Originally Posted by EpicLevelCommoner

My Current BUG list right now:

13 Creatures
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Coiling Oracle
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Thragtusk
1 Wolfir Silverheart
1 Primeval Titan

4 Planeswalkers
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

10 Disruption/Removal
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Echoing Truth

10 Other Spells
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Brainstorm
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Diabolic Intent

23 Land
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Forest
3 Swamp
3 Island
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Creeping Tar Pit

Not too sure about the sideboard yet, but definitely 4 Force of Will and 3 Carpet of Flowers.

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Wolfir silverheart seems really weak to removal

Why echoing truth exactly?

I would cut some green sun's for tops; they're really important.

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Originally Posted by Greenpoe

This has been discussed several times before, but it was agreed that the intermingling of Nic Fit archetypes is beneficial overall.

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Why do you say this?

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Originally Posted by Ralf

With Slaughter I would name "Ichorid".

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Why not bridge from below?

All dredge decks run it (unlike ichorid), and it's much more dangerous.

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Originally Posted by Tao

Also prepare to lose if one of your opponents casts Jace TMS because GBW can't ever beat him.

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Speaking of answers for jace,

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Originally Posted by Tao

Sigarda

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Also in general there are a lot of removal-resistant creatures you can run to beat jace. I disagree that gbw can't beat jace. It may be harder than for scapewish, which can win through it, or pfire, which has a powerful answer to it, but it is still quite possible. For example, how is it easier for bug pod to beat jace than gbw?

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Originally Posted by Koby

Any tips on the Recurring Nightmare GB/w builds? Looking for something consistent to sleeve up.

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I'd choose a rector build because I foresee a weakening of shardless BUG and Jund, thus a general decrese of deathrite shamans: in this scenario rector is more likely to resolve it's ability.

I don't have a list atm, but I think I would play a copy of runed halo as an answer to jace and true name nemesis, as well as a number of maelstrom pulse and vindicate as catch all answers (I think the correct total number is 3).
Obviously they need to be played along at least 3 pernicious deeds.
This should handle the fair matchups.

Against combo the red versions get slaughter games which is the nuts. White combo hate is represented almost by hate bears so I'd stick with more discard: I'd play at least 6 discards main deck. I would also like to play a couple of liliana of the veil right now, since she's good both against combo and blade/delver decks.

One card that I come to dislike is eternal witness: in theory is great but I found her very slow, sometimes too slow, and with all the DRS, oozes and rips around is not that great. I think I'd play one copy right now.

Although you want to play recurring nightmare I recomend to use it as a complementary strategy, ideal for grindy matchups: but remember that nic fit is all about discard-ramp-blow opponent's board and this should be your primary strategy.

For recurring shenigans I recomend thragtusk, kokusho and, if you have an instant sacrifice outlet like tower of phyrexia, faceless butcher: with the proper timing it exiles the creature, no question asked. Also, he's good against sneak&show because it's out of pyroclasm range.

Good rector targets are, apart the one already mentioned, primeval bounty, aura shards, oblivion ring, phyrexian arena, moat, chains of mephistopheles, choke...

This post it's like a collection of thoughts, sorry for that ^_^

anyone who play PunishingNic Fit with jund colors have any idea how break Sneak and Show MU?? it so fck sick deck agains us...
Vs Omnitell i play Chains of M. but agains SnT....its no way to win...we have to be very lucky at all and they have no luck...

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Originally Posted by kingtk3

I'd choose a rector build because I foresee a weakening of shardless BUG and Jund, thus a general decrese of deathrite shamans: in this scenario rector is more likely to resolve it's ability.

I don't have a list atm, but I think I would play a copy of runed halo as an answer to jace and true name nemesis, as well as a number of maelstrom pulse and vindicate as catch all answers (I think the correct total number is 3).
Obviously they need to be played along at least 3 pernicious deeds.
This should handle the fair matchups.

Against combo the red versions get slaughter games which is the nuts. White combo hate is represented almost by hate bears so I'd stick with more discard: I'd play at least 6 discards main deck. I would also like to play a couple of liliana of the veil right now, since she's good both against combo and blade/delver decks.

One card that I come to dislike is eternal witness: in theory is great but I found her very slow, sometimes too slow, and with all the DRS, oozes and rips around is not that great. I think I'd play one copy right now.

Although you want to play recurring nightmare I recomend to use it as a complementary strategy, ideal for grindy matchups: but remember that nic fit is all about discard-ramp-blow opponent's board and this should be your primary strategy.

For recurring shenigans I recomend thragtusk, kokusho and, if you have an instant sacrifice outlet like tower of phyrexia, faceless butcher: with the proper timing it exiles the creature, no question asked. Also, he's good against sneak&show because it's out of pyroclasm range.

Good rector targets are, apart the one already mentioned, primeval bounty, aura shards, oblivion ring, phyrexian arena, moat, chains of mephistopheles, choke...

This post it's like a collection of thoughts, sorry for that ^_^

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Agreed regarding Rector's imminent return. Haven't had time to really work on a list, but I think that the meta is finally swinging back Rector's way. I'd be very happy to cast a Baneslayer in this metagame -- nice True-Name, brah. Let me introduce you to the real unbeatable clock.

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Originally Posted by HardBrain

anyone who play PunishingNic Fit with jund colors have any idea how break Sneak and Show MU?? it so fck sick deck agains us...
Vs Omnitell i play Chains of M. but agains SnT....its no way to win...we have to be very lucky at all and they have no luck...

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Carpet of flower + slaughter games + discard is a good strategy against them: if you exile griselbrand and emrakul they have no way of winning.

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

Agreed regarding Rector's imminent return. Haven't had time to really work on a list, but I think that the meta is finally swinging back Rector's way. I'd be very happy to cast a Baneslayer in this metagame -- nice True-Name, brah. Let me introduce you to the real unbeatable clock.

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Exactly how I feel: let's play a bunch of flying monsters, baneslayer, abyssal persecutor, desecration demon - you name it - fetch a moat with rector and call it a day :)

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Originally Posted by HardBrain

anyone who play PunishingNic Fit with jund colors have any idea how break Sneak and Show MU?? it so fck sick deck agains us...
Vs Omnitell i play Chains of M. but agains SnT....its no way to win...we have to be very lucky at all and they have no luck...

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I've been playtesting against different decks online recently, and I don't feel like Sneak&Show is an autoloss. If I have therapy, I almost always name brainstorm against blue decks first because this card is just nuts. Then it depends on what you see. Discard is your main weapon against them, at least pre-board. I have 2 thoughtseize, 2 lilianas, 1 hymn to tourach and 4 therapies maindeck, so this is probably a bit above average.

Post-board REBs, carpets and ensnaring bridges help a lot. If you manage to resolve a bridge, you pretty much won the game. I don't play slaughter games (neither MD nor SB) and maybe this is a mistake, but I don't have enough slots and the card seems too slow. Maybe the 2 Toxic Deluges should be Games instead, but deluges are so good against anything aggressive that I don't want to drop them. Golgari Charms are also relevant both against Omnitell and against Sneak&Show.

When my opponent cast two brainstorms in a row and didn't see a Force of Will, he scooped to a bridge. Next game he was too lucky: I survived an attack by a sneaky Emrakul, sacrificed veteran, shaman and a couple lands and was about to stabilize after getting more lands. I had all the cards to win in the next couple turns, and the opponent was sitting with an empty hand and a sneak attack on the battlefield. Next turn he topdecks Griselbrand and I die.

By the way, hello everyone, this is probably my first post here. I'm slowly getting into Legacy and collecting all the necessary cards, and practicing with the deck online. Thank you for this great discussion, I had to read a lot of it before finally choosing Punishing Nic Fit as my first legacy deck. Maybe I'll be able to contribute to the discussion, too.

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Originally Posted by heat_wave

By the way, hello everyone, this is probably my first post here. I'm slowly getting into Legacy and collecting all the necessary cards, and practicing with the deck online. Thank you for this great discussion, I had to read a lot of it before finally choosing Punishing Nic Fit as my first legacy deck. Maybe I'll be able to contribute to the discussion, too.

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i have the same situation here. last month i tested every day another deck cutting those which i dont like bcs legacy is not only winning but fun too. so punishing fit will be my fiest legacy deck over other nic fit version.

ok back to topic. i try test with snt today and really slaughter games is not enough. they topdeck brand and ....uh....


do you run recuring tool to play? huntmaster tusk titans slime?

I also started out with Punishing Fit (very recently too) and I can say that, against fair decks, it is one of the best of its class. Punishing Fire alone takes out the vast majority of creatures and planeswalkers in the meta. I've found it to be an excellent, versatile way to cut one's teeth in this format.

That said, I'm still not sure that it's as strong as ScapeWish. Combo is so strong in legacy that just by playing a control deck you're putting yourself at a disadvantage. It's just that simple. Combo goes on the offensive, and we scramble to try to find answers for it. They are the definitive proactive deck whereas we can only react (because it's not usually possible to race combo) until we stabilize.

I believe this is the strength of ScapeWish: not only do they have the ability to effectively race combo, they can also change gears and be the controller OR the aggressor. Mind you, they don't control as well as Punishing Fit, but that is the trade off. We can't be the best in every class.

I'm not saying ScapeWish is THE BEST version of NicFit, but in a metagame riddled with combo it seems to be the most straightforward way to win faster. I've never actually played the deck, but I can tell you that I would be afraid to sit across the table from it.



Unrelated question:
You're playing against Storm. They're on the play, they go USea, LED pass. You open up with a Cabal Therapy, they Brainstorm in response. What do you name, having no idea what they have in their hand?
And no, this is not some lame riddle or test.

Regarding questions about my recent list:
-Yes, Wolfir Silverheart is weak to removal. It's main perk however is that it's GSZable: otherwise, I would run a Batterskull or other more-reliable pump card. I'm open to suggestions though.
-To me, it seems as though Abrupt Decay only helps against CounterTop, as the CMC < 3 overlaps a lot with Deed. Originally, I ran 2 Maelstrom Pulse over 2 Abrupt Decay, but decided to go with Echoing Truth over both as a method of dealing with Empty the Warren tokens, Bridge from Below tokens (in response to Dread Return or other sac-outlet), Marit Lage token, Iona on black or green, and basically just anything that either swarms the field with cards/tokens of the same name or cheats in a hard to deal with creature that neither Pulse nor Decay can deal with. Game 2, I can always pitch it to FoW. I'm at a loss against PWs with this choice though (biggest reason why Pulse over Decay was JMS) . . . will have to adjust according to my expected meta.
-GSZs are just about the last thing I want to cut, but I can see your point about Tops: I could probably cut 1 or 2 other cards and do a 4-2/3 split with Brainstorm and Tops

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Originally Posted by EpicLevelCommoner

Regarding questions about my recent list:
-Yes, Wolfir Silverheart is weak to removal. It's main perk however is that it's GSZable: otherwise, I would run a Batterskull or other more-reliable pump card. I'm open to suggestions though.
-To me, it seems as though Abrupt Decay only helps against CounterTop, as the CMC < 3 overlaps a lot with Deed. Originally, I ran 2 Maelstrom Pulse over 2 Abrupt Decay, but decided to go with Echoing Truth over both as a method of dealing with Empty the Warren tokens, Bridge from Below tokens (in response to Dread Return or other sac-outlet), Marit Lage token, Iona on black or green, and basically just anything that either swarms the field with cards/tokens of the same name or cheats in a hard to deal with creature that neither Pulse nor Decay can deal with. Game 2, I can always pitch it to FoW. I'm at a loss against PWs with this choice though (biggest reason why Pulse over Decay was JMS) . . . will have to adjust according to my expected meta.
-GSZs are just about the last thing I want to cut, but I can see your point about Tops: I could probably cut 1 or 2 other cards and do a 4-2/3 split with Brainstorm and Tops

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-I don't think you need more than 1 creature to win. I think you should cut silverheart for a top.
-I don't like echoing truth because it does not deal with things permanently. It doesn't deal with the main plans of many decks, and is not very good vs. fair decks either. I'd put in a split between decay and pulse.
-I see your point about not wanting to cut gsz.

Hi All, looking for some feedback. I have always played GWB Nic Fit in a rock style build. a lot of board control and sweet creatures.
I started playing the BUG Nic Fit list with Birthing Pod and had some good games but it has left me with a kind of meh feeling. It suffers from a lot of the problems that most birthing pod lists I've played in the past do. Namely that if you don't resolve a birthing pod early it's just a pile of value creatures.

I've looked at some Melira Pod lists and have come up with a bit of a brew that I'm looking to get some feed back on. This list is completely untested so I can't justify all of the cards in the list but some of the odd ones are there purely on the theoretical basis that they "might be good".


Creatures:27
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Fleecemane Lion
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Wall of Blossoms
1 Bone Shredder
2 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Murderous Redcap
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Restoration Angel
1 Acidic Slime
1 Shriekmaw
1 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan
1 Sun Titan

Spells:11
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Birthing Pod

Lands:22
3 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath


I like the idea of Fleecemane Lion in a deck like this. A 3/3 for two is pretty good and the ability to become monstrous and dodge spot removal and wraths I feel is nothing to shrug at. Pontiff could be a good answer to True Name nemesis. I realize we have access to Deed but that doesn't always get drawn when it's needed. Pontiff at least offers a tutorable answer to it. Phrexian Metamorph seems like a no brainer in a format full of powerful creatures and equipments. Restoration Angel is another theoretical add. She should win fights with most creatures like Clique and being able to double up on value is never a bad thing. There are also 2 Gavony Township in the deck for the times when there is no birthing pod in play you can just get big and attack with creatures.

There is a slight urge to make this a five color deck and add Deceiver Exarch, Phantasmal Image and Zealous Conscripts to be able to pod up the chain multiple times in a turn. But again. this deck is completely untested and I am looking for initial feedback. maybe something I missed or hadn't thought of. Or if someone wants to build the deck and give it run and tell me how bad it is that is welcome too :wink:

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Originally Posted by HardBrain

i have the same situation here. last month i tested every day another deck cutting those which i dont like bcs legacy is not only winning but fun too. so punishing fit will be my fiest legacy deck over other nic fit version.

ok back to topic. i try test with snt today and really slaughter games is not enough. they topdeck brand and ....uh....


do you run recuring tool to play? huntmaster tusk titans slime?

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I'm currently running the following creature package:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Primeval Titan
1 Thragtusk
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Deathrite Shaman

Acidic Slime would be a nice addition if I had something to take out. Maybe I'll try to replace a Huntmaster.
I'm not running recurring nightmare, though I should probably try it out, too.

@ hymntotourcock: I'd probably take the risk and name Dark Ritual since the opponent will probably hide his tutors and he already has some acceleration. If he had lotus petals, he would've cast them, so we're left with rituals. If he sets his topdeck wisely, though, we're in trouble. I still need a lot more practice with TES and ANT.

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Originally Posted by pfiremc13

-I don't think you need more than 1 creature to win. I think you should cut silverheart for a top.
-I don't like echoing truth because it does not deal with things permanently. It doesn't deal with the main plans of many decks, and is not very good vs. fair decks either. I'd put in a split between decay and pulse.
-I see your point about not wanting to cut gsz.

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Hmm ... gotcha. Thanks for the insight.

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Originally Posted by hymntotourcock

Unrelated question:
You're playing against Storm. They're on the play, they go USea, LED pass. You open up with a Cabal Therapy, they Brainstorm in response. What do you name, having no idea what they have in their hand?
And no, this is not some lame riddle or test.

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I name Dark Ritual here. I figure if they're Brainstorming, they have cards they want to protect, which to me says either Infernal Tutor or another business spell, which they'll be hiding with Brainstorm. Therefore I want to make sure they can't kill me in their next turn or two, and taking their Rituals (if they have them) makes it much less likely that we're just dead when they untap. This should give us enough time to flashback Therapy and take their business spell when they draw it next turn.

Also, welcome to all the new names in the thread!

For players who prefer PunishingFit:
I think we can consider about MustIn Cards and Optional Cards. My propose of list:
Must In:
4 Veteran Explorer - for excellent ramp
2 Thragtusk - great gainlife and Adv maker
2 Huntmaster of the fells - like tusk but he can also flip and kill problematic creature
1 Primeval Titan - ramp
1 Scavenging Ooze - main answer on grave / great vs *****
1 Eternal Witness
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3 Sensei Diving Top - dig dig dig
3 Pernicious Deed - awesome highpower removal
3/4 Punishing Fire - depents on room for it 3/4
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3/4 Green Sun's Zenith - like in PF.
2/3 abrupt decay - great removal i think best point on this time ( in this color obv)
2 liliana of the Vail - great in our deck i think, combo with PF and dont hurts our deck but opp a lot.
4 cabal therapy - like made for this deck. we disc bad cards and take adv from explorers or tokens
1/2 Diabolic intent - must in when we run recuring but even without it its great card for us - and helps a looot to search ideal cards.
1 Recurring Nightmare - produce sick adv
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1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Kessig Wolf Run - great Land imo
3/4 Grove Burnwillows
X Fetches
X Badland
X Taiga
X Bayou
X forest
X Swamp
X mountain
It depends on mana in maindeck+sb
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For now its 35/38 Must in cards+23 lands ( i think its enough) we have 53/56 cards.
---Cards that might be good in our deck and have to be take into consideration:
GSZ tool:
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Acidic slime (+work with Recuring)
1 Thrun, the Last troll (great body and survive deed by regen)
Recuring tool:
1 Grave Titan
1 Faceless Butcher (ideal for Show and Tell reveal / can be tutored by DIntent)
Other Toy:
2 Thoughtseize
1/2 Hymn to Tourach
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SIDEBOARD:
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its harder to choose but we have a lot of options
-Carpet of flowers
-Slaughter Games
-Surgical Extraction/Extirpate ( i preffer surgical because we can use it after first discard)
-krosan grip
-golgari charm
-pyroblast/red elemental blast ( i propose 2/2 because i think we will take 4th of 1mana counter)
-Chains of mefistopheles - amazing card i think agains JaceDecks, Omnitell, Ant, Elves
-Ensnaring Bridge (great with kessig wolf run, we can attack weak creature then use Land to be more serious)
-Tajuru Preserver - against emraaaakul. good for GSZ bad - can be killed by pyroclasm
-Rakdos's Return - i love this card. if she resolve...nuts.

My List that I test now:
>>>CREATURE:13
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Thragtusk
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Faceless Butcher
1 Acidic Slime
1 Primeval Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
>>>ARTIFACT:1
3 Sensei's Divining Top
>>>ENCHANTMENTS:4
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
>>>SPELLS:16
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Punishing Fire
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Diabolic Intent
>>>WALKERS:2
2 Liliana of the Veil
>>>LANDS:23
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Kessig Wolf Run

SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers - great job with Recurring tool a lot of mana a lot of copy the work
SB: 2 Slaughter Games - i just love cut WinCon
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction - like i said before great work with early discard
SB: 2 Chains of Mephistopheles
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Golgari Charm

Still thinking about -1 Acidic Slime and -1Diabolic Intent and add main +2 thoughtseize. now im gonna test this build and try acidic in battle...
Whats is your optional build with Must In/Could be in?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HardBrain

For players who prefer PunishingFit:

Whats is your optional build with Must In/Could be in?

---

Wow so many people joining the thread. Is it a TNN effect ?

Welcome to all.

The reason to play Punishing (even if I am usually posting about scape, I also have some good practise with PF list) is Thrun.

PF main plan is generally on the "Protect the Troll" plan.
Thrun HAS to be somewhere in the 75 (better main deck).

Against a lot of midrange/control deck, he will be your main kill condition.
Kessig will gain even more value against TNN.deck and you could mark my word here.

Have fun all, you made a good choice electing NicFit.
Read and read again Tao's primer and start testing !!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ralf

Wow so many people joining the thread. Is it a TNN effect ?

Welcome to all.

The reason to play Punishing (even if I am usually posting about scape, I also have some good practise with PF list) is Thrun.

PF main plan is generally on the "Protect the Troll" plan.
Thrun HAS to be somewhere in the 75 (better main deck).

Against a lot of midrange/control deck, he will be your main kill condition.
Kessig will gain even more value against TNN.deck and you could mark my word here.

Have fun all, you made a good choice electing NicFit.
Read and read again Tao's primer and start testing !!!

---

Yea, i forgot about him in my list:D damn:D....Update: slime is to slow and kill our plan with Carpets. so i gonna -1slime +1thrun, alwo he works with KWolfRun

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hymntotourcock

Unrelated question:
You're playing against Storm. They're on the play, they go USea, LED pass. You open up with a Cabal Therapy, they Brainstorm in response. What do you name, having no idea what they have in their hand?
And no, this is not some lame riddle or test.

---

Dark ritual.

If he's played led on their turn it's because he fears discard, thus he needs mana for the next turn.
He probably has a couple of ritual/petal and a infernal tutor and aims to ad nauseam next turn, so he'll hide it with brainstorm.

If you're playing against a skilled player he can keep the business and try to next level you, but it's unlikely.

Sent from my mobile, forgive me for grammar errors.

Interesting Question...about strategy.

Opponent Win the roll.
He start with Fetch, land with U nd play Delver.
We draw put land then: we cast Explorer of Cabal first? what is your first move. i always have war in my head about this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HardBrain

Interesting Question...about strategy.

Opponent Win the roll.
He start with Fetch, land with U nd play Delver.
We draw put land then: we cast Explorer of Cabal first? what is your first move. i always have war in my head about this.

---

Tropical= Vet (RUG tends to daze or even force Vets though)
Volcanic= Probably Vet but depends on the fetch
Tundra, Underground= Therapy to play around swords
Island= Probably r/u then so go Vet.
I'm trying to recall what I've done in this past and I think this want I have done.

Given a normal hand you should always play Therapy in that situation and name Brainstorm when it resolves. This has two advantages. The first advantage is that you would usually much rather have him Daze the Therapy than the Explorer. Of course this changes if you WANT your Explorer Dazed because you have a lot of mana and/or an additional Explorer but usually that is not the case.
The second advantage is that he is tapped out now and can't Brainstorm in response to fiddle with your Therapy.

When it resolves name Brainstorm: a) to avoid having to deal with him Brainstorming in response to Therapy next turn, b) because it is the best card in their deck and c) this makes it so he can't hide any multiples in his hand anymore.

An exception: If he played Tropical you should still play Therapy (because you really don't want your Explorer Dazed by RUG) but consider naming Stifle depending on how your hand looks so that he can't Stifle the Explorer trigger in response to Therapy next turn.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HardBrain

Tao, i like your list, and i made some my own changes. this is playable deck or destroy this deck and make him weak??:
GUYS
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Thragtusk
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
1 Primeval Titan
1 Acidic Slime
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Scavenging Ooze
OPTIONS
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Liliana of the Veil
SPELLS
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
MONEY
1 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Badlands
1 Bayou
2 Swamp
3 Forest
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Kessig Wolf Run

1 Grave Titan
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Slaughter Games
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Chains of Mephistopheles - love it vs elves/omnitell/jacedecks

---

List looks good.


I would make these changes:

Maindeck:
+ 1 Top
+ 1 GSZ
- 1 Volrath's Stronghold (or -1 Kessig Wolf Run)
- 1 Maelstrom Pulse

Sideboard:
- 2 Krosan Grip
+ 1 Thoughtseize
+ 1 Liliana of the Veil

I don't see a need for Krosan Grip though in a deck that plays 3 Decay and 3 Deeds AND in you case 2 Maelstrom Pulses AND GSZ for Acidic Slime. Is your meta somehow unique or what is the reason for this?
I would not play both Stronghold and Kessig Wolf Run. Choose whichever one you prefer and play 22 lands. I like Stronghold but most other experienced players prefer Wolf Run.
I would really recommend playing 4 Tops and 4 GSZs to max out on your odds of triggering Explorer in the first 2-3 turns. Also, both cards are amazing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ZimAshe

Hi All, looking for some feedback. I have always played GWB Nic Fit in a rock style build. a lot of board control and sweet creatures.
I started playing the BUG Nic Fit list with Birthing Pod and had some good games but it has left me with a kind of meh feeling. It suffers from a lot of the problems that most birthing pod lists I've played in the past do. Namely that if you don't resolve a birthing pod early it's just a pile of value creatures.

I've looked at some Melira Pod lists and have come up with a bit of a brew that I'm looking to get some feed back on. This list is completely untested so I can't justify all of the cards in the list but some of the odd ones are there purely on the theoretical basis that they "might be good".


Creatures:27
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Fleecemane Lion
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Wall of Blossoms
1 Bone Shredder
2 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Murderous Redcap
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Restoration Angel
1 Acidic Slime
1 Shriekmaw
1 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan
1 Sun Titan

Spells:11
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Birthing Pod

Lands:22
3 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath


I like the idea of Fleecemane Lion in a deck like this. A 3/3 for two is pretty good and the ability to become monstrous and dodge spot removal and wraths I feel is nothing to shrug at. Pontiff could be a good answer to True Name nemesis. I realize we have access to Deed but that doesn't always get drawn when it's needed. Pontiff at least offers a tutorable answer to it. Phrexian Metamorph seems like a no brainer in a format full of powerful creatures and equipments. Restoration Angel is another theoretical add. She should win fights with most creatures like Clique and being able to double up on value is never a bad thing. There are also 2 Gavony Township in the deck for the times when there is no birthing pod in play you can just get big and attack with creatures.

There is a slight urge to make this a five color deck and add Deceiver Exarch, Phantasmal Image and Zealous Conscripts to be able to pod up the chain multiple times in a turn. But again. this deck is completely untested and I am looking for initial feedback. maybe something I missed or hadn't thought of. Or if someone wants to build the deck and give it run and tell me how bad it is that is welcome too :wink:

---

I'm wondering if wall of blossoms is better than voice of resurgence or not. With the high creature count the token is probably big enough to make it worth running. But drawing a card is ok too. I also think even though you're playing a value-birthing pod deck you still want sigarda. It's one of the few things in junk colors that can kill a jace besides vindicate or pulse. I foresee a problem with the lion being that if you try to monstrosity it they can just swords it in response or otherwise remove it. However, a 4/4 indestructible hexproof guy is certainly nothing to sneeze at and at the very least plays good defense. If you get the window to do it after they tap out or something then sure, I can see it being good.

@Hardbrain, I think a few of the cards you listed as "must play" in punishing fire nic fit don't belong on the list. A second thragtusk is certainly not necessary and I've generally been unimpressed with the card. One is fine. It's embarrassing against batterskull or true name. In fact there's very few things in legacy that it matches up well against having only 3 toughness. I feel like most of the time it just says 4G, gain 5 life and leave a body behind in an attempt to stabilize. Diabolic intent is good in scapeshift builds because it gets your kill card but there's not a ton of great things to tutor up in punishing fit. Ideally what do you hope to get casting that card? I wouldn't play it over a 4th green sun, where less than 4 is not ideal. Recurring nightmare is cute, but again, I don't think punishing nic fit can really abuse that card to its full capacity and it's gotten much worse with DRS and Ooze, etc. I don't want to sound like the king of negativity here but faceless butcher is not a good card at all and dryad arbor has never been good in nic fit.

Lately I've been performing very poorly with Nic fit (I play the punishing fire version). I think I went 1-3 my last two events playing the deck. I lost to burn both times which generally should not happen. I guess I can write up a quick report of my last tournament, maybe you guys can give me some tips.

Round 1: Merfolk. He plays cursecatcher and says go. Turn two he adds a lord, which I punishing fire on turn three to avoid him saccing cursecatcher. He adds an adept to his board, and eventually another lord but the punishing fire engine takes over the game and anything he plays I kill pretty easily. A huntmaster shows up and takes over, flipping to kill an adept. Game two plays out similarly to game one, anything targetable I kill with punishing fire or abrupt decay, and he plays a TNN. I ramp with explorer by chumping one of his dudes and cast primeval titan. I grab more groves and punishing fire a kira twice to get it off the board. My lifetotal is so high so he holds back his TNN when he plays a second one and he double blocks the titan. I already had a huntmaster on board at this point and it flips when all he draws for the turn is a wasteland. The trample damage from the titan got him relatively low and I win the race with a bunch of creatures I had on board but I don't remember the specifics.

Round 2: Burn. This round was frustrating. Game one I rip apart his hand with cabal therapy/thoughtseize, trigger an explorer, and generally find an answer to any threat he plays like young pyromancer or grim lavamancer. Huntmaster shows up, I gain some life and eventually I kill him with it pretty fast since he took damage from price, barbarian ring, and flame rift. Game two I look at an opener with 5 lands, thragtusk, eternal witness. I figure I won't survive five turns to cast the tusk so I ship the hand back. The next two hands are light on lands and full of irrelevant cards for the matchup. Eventually I settle on four, an explorer, forest, top, and decay. I durdle a bit trying to find lands with top and die pretty fast to his decent hand. Game three I felt like tearing my hair out. I lead with thoughtseize, taking a price since my hand had some nonbasics. He had double rift bolt and plays that turn one so I don't take 2 with therapy. I strip a bolt with therapy, flash it back to take something else, and he casts the rest of his stuff on the following turn. At this point I'm pretty low and I keep looking with top at my top 3. The 3: pernicious deed x 2, garruk primal hunter. I play the garruk because I had nothing better to do and make a 3/3. I look again next turn, 2 deed 1 top. He kills me after I fail to find huntmaster or tusk or anything relevant with top for three or four turns.

Round 3: Deathblade. Turn one I thoughtseize and take a brainstorm. His hand has a jace so I make a point of not ramping him. Generally this deck doesn't have basics but he added two because of my deck and blood moon. He plays out a a couple of stoneforges and a strix and I kill them off with punishing fire. He casts a batterskull. Eventually I land a primal hunter, make a 3/3 and then on the following turn play thragtusk, drawing 5 cards with garruk. He scoops in a really unsportsmanlike manner. Sore loser. Game two he plays a pithing needle naming deed. Again, I wipe most of his board of anything relevant with p-fire including jace and we both get up to about 7 lands in play when he plays a batterskull. I decay the needle, and keep wiping away the batterskull with deeds for two turns in a row but academy ruins allows him to recurr it and cast it again every turn. I die to the token and a late TNN. He complains rudely that I'm topping too slow a couple of times during this game. If I was really slow playing we wouldn't have finished game three but I was playing fast even though he was winning. Game three he plays rest in peace, and takes out my punishing fire engine. He lands a meddling mage and names pernicious deed. He plays mystic, TNN, and fetches feast and famine. He equips the sword to meddling mage and I die pretty fast with no real way to wipe the board. We have a discussion about carpet of flowers and he tries to convince me that choke is better. It was pretty mediocre against him, I kept deeding it away. I'm thinking of cutting it.

Round 4: Elves. He has a slow start with a lanowar, then adds a deathrite and symbiote. I get the p-fire engine going but I can only ultimately kill one thing a turn and that's not enough so he runs me over with elves. Game two I keep a hand with golgari charm, deed, p-fire. I wipe away his elves and clean up with thragtusk. Game three he kills me turn 3 with craterhoof. I had deed in play but he had a decay anyway. My list, for reference:

2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
3 Forest
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
2 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
4 Punishing Fire
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Thoughtseize

SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 Slaughter Games
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 2 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Golgari Charm

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tao

List looks good.
I would make these changes:

Maindeck:
+ 1 Top
+ 1 GSZ
- 1 Volrath's Stronghold (or -1 Kessig Wolf Run)
- 1 Maelstrom Pulse

Sideboard:
- 2 Krosan Grip
+ 1 Thoughtseize
+ 1 Liliana of the Veil

.

---

About changes i made some changes before you answer. Thanks anyway. this is my current list.
I update my search tool to 2 intent and put out slime, they are to slow in my opinion. +1Butcher really helps with SnT also its good tool with recuring nightmare and Phyrexian Tower. its some kind of Mangara and Karakas ;)
i cut tusk and add GSZ like in your suggestion.

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thragtusk
1 Faceless Butcher
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Primeval Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness

3 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Punishing Fire
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Diabolic Intent
2 Abrupt Decay

2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Mountain
2 Forest
3 Swamp

SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 Slaughter Games
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Chains of Mephistopheles
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Golgari Charm

I also switched to a new Testbuild with the Punishing Fire Engine. The current build doesn't need the full Playset, because my meta has more tempo decks (so 3 Abrupt Decay) and combo decks (storm and show&tell). So i aim for a nice surprising action to crush them all.

Some Testslots (compared to Tao's stock build)
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Deathrite Shaman

Kitchen Finks is for a better mana curve and as an additional X-3 Target for Zenith (better against Daze/Pierce). Sadly it isn't a real bomb (or has the power from huntsmaster, so maybe i switch back to another target). But Finks works also good with the next tool: Diabolic Intent. This Spell is also a Testslot, but shut work as an additional and valuable Sac.Outlet for our Explorer. In my theory it shoud fix my "3 instead of 4 Sensei's" Problem. In this case i also cutted 1 Deed. Garruk Relentless is a very flexible Planeswalker and in a 22-lands build i like him more compared to the big one. The single Deathrite Shaman is a swiss army knife and against Tempo and Combo he is a solid (and fast) drop, that either get fast killed or let you profit enough with his abilities.

Sideboard: 1 Gaddock Teeg, 1 Oblivion Ring, 1 Savannah - All Cardchoices aim clearly for a better Combo and Control (like Miracle) Matchup.


// Deck: Punishing Fit (60)

// Lands
1 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Swamp
1 Taiga
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
1 Deathrite Shaman
2 Eternal Witness
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Primeval Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer

// Spells
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Garruk Relentless
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Punishing Fire
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Thoughtseize

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Savannah
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Slaughter Games
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Thoughtseize

mhhh ...

is it worth to try out a single natural order in nicfits packing burning wish?
morphing vet, wood elves or a wolf token into primetime or (postboard) something else (progenitus?) and benefiting from all triggers sounds good.
just regardless of the already limited space for the sideboard ... ^_o

if i can get my hands on a cheap natural order i'll try it at sunday's locals.

also (mostly @ralf) the random ooze will start in the maindeck, added for the 3rd huntmaster.
i'll also try out 3 therapy 1 thoughtseize main, with the 4th therapy in the sideboard, hope it'll do well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MasterHerC

mhhh ...

is it worth to try out a single natural order in nicfits packing burning wish?
morphing vet, wood elves or a wolf token into primetime or (postboard) something else (progenitus?) and benefiting from all triggers sounds good.
just regardless of the already limited space for the sideboard ... ^_o

if i can get my hands on a cheap natural order i'll try it at sunday's locals.

also (mostly @ralf) the random ooze will start in the maindeck, added for the 3rd huntmaster.
i'll also try out 3 therapy 1 thoughtseize main, with the 4th therapy in the sideboard, hope it'll do well.

---

Hey ! Nothing big just some "cute" tweaks to fight better against my "combo infested meta" without impacting too much the stock list.
Keep me posted about your results !! Wish you luck because sometimes you need luck to get through 3 S&T...

Natural order is "cute". IMHO.
As we don't have access to brainstorm, drawing into "insert your monster", is "rude". But, if someone want to test that tech, I will likely try with "Worldspine wurm" (with NO in SB, ofc).
Just in case I could, once in my lifetime, trounce hard a S&T player !!!

Talking about tech, I am thinking more and more about including a lone "Karakas" in Scape. I faced the other day a miserable situation where a resolved S&T helped me to put into play my beautiful Prime which had to cope with the mighty Emrakul. That's all she wrote as I died 2 turns later...
Including a lone karakas here improves our S&T MU by 2 cards, either you could have karakas in hand when S&T is played or Primetime to fetch for karakas !!!
Well nothing big but you know the usual blabla about "two birds, one stone".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MD.Ghost

Some Testslots (compared to Tao's stock build)
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Deathrite Shaman

---

I'm not in love with DR Shaman because it usually gets killed by cards that would otherwise give you a 2 for 1 like Bolt or Swords or Decay and I think trading like that is a way to rob yourself of a nice free advantage over your opponents. But on the other hand I understand that DR Shaman might be powerful and cheap enough to be worth it.

I like both Diabolic Intent and Garruk Relentless a lot. I will try the 3 Top / 1 Intent setup myself and both Garruks (Relentless and PH) are perfectly viable maindeck choices.

The only choice I don't like is Finks over Huntmaster. Finks are better against Bolt but Huntmaster is better against Swords, Decay and Jace. And if the creature lives and the game stalls then Huntmaster really shines.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HardBrain

About changes i made some changes before you answer. Thanks anyway. this is my current list.
I update my search tool to 2 intent and put out slime, they are to slow in my opinion. +1Butcher really helps with SnT also its good tool with recuring nightmare and Phyrexian Tower. its some kind of Mangara and Karakas ;)
i cut tusk and add GSZ like in your suggestion.

---

Recurring Nightmare with Diabolic Intent is an interaction that I was not aware of to be honest. It was most likely done before but I only catch up to it now. I do like the idea in Punishing Nic Fit and I will try it.

I would cut either the Stronghold or the Wolf Run. 22 lands are enough but you need all the colored lands. Another card I would cut is the Faceless Butcher. Maybe a pet card of yours? It just seems so bad. Maybe adding another Witness (really good with Nightmare, too) and a Thoughtseize or a Liliana?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MasterHerC

mhhh ...

is it worth to try out a single natural order in nicfits packing burning wish?
morphing vet, wood elves or a wolf token into primetime or (postboard) something else (progenitus?) and benefiting from all triggers sounds good.
just regardless of the already limited space for the sideboard ... ^_o

if i can get my hands on a cheap natural order i'll try it at sunday's locals.

---

I am not the expert on Scapewish but I think Order was tried and dismissed by quite a couple of people.

Correct. I (and others) tried Natural Order as a wish target and it was pretty bad. I suppose that there's some possible hybrid version lurking out there that runs a couple of Orders main and one side to wish for, but then you run into the problem that we have no way to put Progenitals back if we draw him. You'd have to run something like Hoof, which is castable but not usually good enough for our deck. And even then, a sideboard Order suffers from the same problem as things like Haunting Echoes, Tsunami, and From the Ashes -- if you can Wish -> cast NO, why aren't you just winning with Scapeshift instead?