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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Long time lurker, first time poster in this thread. I really want to thank Bryant Cook and Lemnear for developing this deck. It's a gentleman's pleasure to pilot. I've been testing/gold-fishing it for years and it finally seems time to unleash the vintage skills.
I pose this question to the more experienced players: has anyone tested a single grim tutor in the 75 somewhere? I'm almost sure it's not good enough being a 3-drop that costs you 3 life on the flip and on resolution, but I am tempted to test due to the fact that the only games I lose tend to be when I'm derdalling with blue cantrips into not what I want. I always seem to have the mana. Like I said, I'm ALMOST sure it's bad, but I have to ask if anyone's tested since it nags at me.
Which leads me to my testing observations ...
My thoughts so far:
The only thing different about my 75 from the OP/primer is the sideboard (3 card difference). I don't think carpet is worth it. Yeah it's great in the format right now, but I'm 8-0 against UR delver in tournament games and the only decks I lose to are reanimator and UW control, and to a lesser extent Esper with a loaded hand (Eg: thoughtseize, FoW, clique, daze, ect). (sometimes I do lose to variance/derdaly hands) Anyway, I don't think carpet is super in the matches I'm not winning. Needle just buys you a lot of time and messes with the worst matches. My current side looks like this:
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Pithing Needle
1 Chain of Vapor (I like to keep 1 for post ad nausea and a 4th non-burning answer)
1 Shattering spree (2 people at my local always plays chalice decks, and everyone(UW especially) bring in cannonist against me)
1 Void Snare
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Massacre
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
I'm thinking of cutting a swarm for another chain, I'd board in chain a lot more than I'd bring in swarm, I'm bringing a shit ton of cards in against UW already and I like ponders there, and finally, I like chaining something EoT and then therapying it away, or just winning w/ natural storm. Chain can also buy time or build storm, while zantid is good but doesn't auto beat counterbalance anyway, I'll rely on needles for that.
Crystal Vein/city of T is dumb. Just play carpet, it's so much better, it's like a green dark ritual/rite ever tun.
I'd say 3 out of every 4 wins I get against UR are from goblin tokens.
I messed around with Bribery in the side as a option for the LOLz against reanimator and LED-Dredge, but I don't think it's worth the slot. It does feel really really good though! Take Grissle Daddy -> Win! I've also taken Elesh Norn against ichorid and he couldn't win. Taking Iona if you can't be sure of a win is fun too. Anyway, I'm cutting out the antics since if I can burning for that I'll prolly win anyway and getting 2 blue is meh.Like I said, it was for the LOLz at locals.
If you're just picking this deck up, here are tips not in the primer (I think) that I'll share
1. it's always a good idea to leave an extra LED un-poped on ad nausea if you can because hellbent is a thing. Learned that the hard way. I know it seems obvious but the tunnel vision got me.
2. your opponents rite of flames count when you cast RoF, so read your cards I guess. In the mirror I was playing against a jedi and if I just chose the RoF off a probe-> cabal I would have won that turn.
3. AN is an instant, casting it EoT off dark rit is sometimes the play, when if they counter it you can next turn win now that they don't have a counter or you can just untap. Rare but be aware.
4. If you open up on a shaky hand, don't rely on BS if you don't already have the fetch, if you don't find it you'll prolly get stuck for two turns. When I switched from fetchbase to gemstones I realized this the hard way. If you're playing the 7/8 fetch I'd prolly go for it.
In general I'm going with the gemstones from here because I like guaranteed decay games 2-3, but man i miss the fetches and a single basic island for the derdle hands. If I cut swarms for chains/needles I just might go to 2 gemstones only.
P.S.
Does anyone have some data on how many goblins minimum are need against which decks T1? Or to I have to make graphs?
P.P.S.
Thanks again cook, you've come a long way since I met you at a Mana Leak Open and you were playing Tomb of Urami, LOLz. I remember trading you a Gemstone mine in Mass and thinking that the deck wouldn't get anymore broken cards that wouldn't get banned. I was wrong.
I hope people appreciated my attempt at contributions.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
That nice guy
I pose this question to the more experienced players: has anyone tested a single grim tutor in the 75 somewhere? I'm almost sure it's not good enough being a 3-drop that costs you 3 life on the flip and on resolution, but I am tempted to test due to the fact that the only games I lose tend to be when I'm derdalling with blue cantrips into not what I want. I always seem to have the mana. Like I said, I'm ALMOST sure it's bad, but I have to ask if anyone's tested since it nags at me.
This deck is optimized for Burning Wish. In this deck Wish is miles better than Grim Tutor.
In ANT it's a different story, since ANT makes more mana, but has trouble making a lot of red mana.
This deck is good at casting Ad Nauseam. If you feel you have not enough business, you can try:
1. A second Ad Nauseam main deck.
2. Just put the Infernal in the main, like we used to have.
I personally feel it's completely fine to cut a Ponder. I know most here don't agree, but cantripping into cantrips is a thing, and TES doesn't like to do that as much as ANT does. I tried 3 Ponder once and it felt good. I should have won all my rounds that tourney. I didn't, but that was all my fault for not sequencing my plays properly and missing an obvious opportunity to grab the win.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
That nice guy
I pose this question to the more experienced players: has anyone tested a single grim tutor in the 75 somewhere? I'm almost sure it's not good enough being a 3-drop that costs you 3 life on the flip and on resolution, but I am tempted to test due to the fact that the only games I lose tend to be when I'm derdalling with blue cantrips into not what I want. I always seem to have the mana. Like I said, I'm ALMOST sure it's bad, but I have to ask if anyone's tested since it nags at me.
Yes, it's been tested - both the cost and life loss are too great in an Ad Nauseam deck that already has such a high saturation of tutors. The effect is very powerful, which is what makes it not completely terrible. Note that some people in Europe only run 3 Burning Wish (with 4 MD Infernal Tutor) - I'm not saying this is correct, but I raise this point to illustrate that while tutor redundancy and density is a desirable trait, drawing multiples is very poor and the sweet spot (in my opinion) appears to be either 7 or 8 tutors in the 75. Burning Wish and Infernal Tutor are superior and fill those spots.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
That nice guy
I don't think carpet is worth it. Yeah it's great in the format right now, but I'm 8-0 against UR delver in tournament games and the only decks I lose to are reanimator and UW control, and to a lesser extent Esper with a loaded hand (Eg: thoughtseize, FoW, clique, daze, ect). (sometimes I do lose to variance/derdaly hands) Anyway, I don't think carpet is super in the matches I'm not winning. Needle just buys you a lot of time and messes with the worst matches.
I agree with you. While I understand the logic behind Carpet of Flowers, there's less soft counters and Wasteland than ever before (although, the card is still very good against the remaining copies they do have). I too prefer Pithing Needle at the moment, particularly as Show and Tell is still moderately popular in my region. I am going to do some further testing before I make a final decision on this however.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
That nice guy
I'm thinking of cutting a swarm for another chain, I'd board in chain a lot more than I'd bring in swarm, I'm bringing a shit ton of cards in against UW already and I like ponders there, and finally, I like chaining something EoT and then therapying it away, or just winning w/ natural storm. Chain can also buy time or build storm, while zantid is good but doesn't auto beat counterbalance anyway, I'll rely on needles for that.
Xantid Swarm isn't necessarily included in the sideboard for Miracles, even though Bryant has began bringing it in against them in recent times. I agree with Bryant in that, even if it doesn't perform that well against them, I feel it is better than a Ponder that would otherwise take that slot.
Its original purpose (which it is still stellar at accomplishing) was to beat Show and Tell/Reanimator (and of course more scarcely played decks list Merfolk and High Tide). If your meta has any of these decks, it might be worth keeping 2 copies regardless of whether or not you agree to bring it in against Miracles. There is some overlap however as both Xantid Swarm and Pithing Needle invalidate Griselbrand and Sensei's Diving Top (to an extent). Do we need the full 4 copies of both? Perhaps Carpet of Flowers is better than Pithing Needle if Xantid Swarm already handling these issues? Xantid Swarm is easier for many decks to deal with than Pithing Needle though.
I'm unsure on these issues at the moment, but I'll be sticking with 2 Xantid Swarm and 2 Pithing Needle for the time being - I don't have any complaints regarding their effectiveness.
Aside from this, I like having the 2 Chain of Vapor, so if I were you I would indeed find room for the second as they're very versatile. Perhaps there's something else you could shave? If there's no Leyline of Sanctity in your meta, I would suggest shaving the Void Snare instead of the Chain of Vapor (to make the required space for your Shattering Spree).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
That nice guy
Does anyone have some data on how many goblins minimum are need against which decks T1? Or to I have to make graphs?
I have a screenshot of a Facebook post from Ari Lax 2 years back were he breaks down this (specifically in relation to Stoneforge Mystic) - it could be out of date now, but I'll post it here in a day or two anyway (if I remember this time :p). I don't have graphs though and it would be nice to have the data for more fringe decks!
I hope you have found this helpful. Cheers!
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
That nice guy
I pose this question to the more experienced players: has anyone tested a single grim tutor in the 75 somewhere? I'm almost sure it's not good enough being a 3-drop that costs you 3 life on the flip and on resolution, but I am tempted to test due to the fact that the only games I lose tend to be when I'm derdalling with blue cantrips into not what I want. I always seem to have the mana. Like I said, I'm ALMOST sure it's bad, but I have to ask if anyone's tested since it nags at me.
Yes and it is horrible in a deck which evolves around Ad Nauseam. Grim is a dead flip if you hit it below 7 life. Even tutoring for AN with Grim is wacky because of the extra mana and lost life. It is a reasonable card in ANT is you give less of a fuck about AN but even there, needing to have 7 life for a PIF loop left isn't hot and the reason ANT has still not found a real solution for the desired Infernal 5-6.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
That nice guy
My thoughts so far:
The only thing different about my 75 from the OP/primer is the sideboard (3 card difference). I don't think carpet is worth it. Yeah it's great in the format right now, but I'm 8-0 against UR delver in tournament games and the only decks I lose to are reanimator and UW control, and to a lesser extent Esper with a loaded hand (Eg: thoughtseize, FoW, clique, daze, ect). (sometimes I do lose to variance/derdaly hands) Anyway, I don't think carpet is super in the matches I'm not winning. Needle just buys you a lot of time and messes with the worst matches.
Honestly, since blue decks started to cut Stifle, Wasteland and Pierce, all that doesn't pack multiple angles of attack like BUG, Esper, Deathblade or Miracles, became pretty managable no matter your build.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
That nice guy
My current side looks like this:
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Pithing Needle
1 Chain of Vapor (I like to keep 1 for post ad nausea and a 4th non-burning answer)
1 Shattering spree (2 people at my local always plays chalice decks, and everyone(UW especially) bring in cannonist against me)
1 Void Snare
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Massacre
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
I'm thinking of cutting a swarm for another chain, I'd board in chain a lot more than I'd bring in swarm, I'm bringing a shit ton of cards in against UW already and I like ponders there, and finally, I like chaining something EoT and then therapying it away, or just winning w/ natural storm. Chain can also buy time or build storm, while zantid is good but doesn't auto beat counterbalance anyway, I'll rely on needles for that.
Why are you running Spree if you have the belcher mode for your local players (you know before turn 1 what they are playing) and Decays Postboard? Swarm and Needle target the same matchup more or less, so it's a personal choice and what you want the card exactly to do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
That nice guy
Crystal Vein/city of T is dumb. Just play carpet, it's so much better, it's like a green dark ritual/rite ever tun.
First question: Would you play Carpet mainboard? If not, do you want to dedicate several SB slots for modular mana which also require green mana to initiate? I don't. We are obviously not talking about the same idea in context of mana. Have you tested the setup to experience the benefits and limitations, or is this just a gut-reaction? I remember the same extreme reactions back when I suggested cutting Silence xD
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
First question: Would you play Carpet mainboard? If not, do you want to dedicate several SB slots for modular mana which also require green mana to initiate? I don't. We are obviously not talking about the same idea in context of mana. Have you tested the setup to experience the benefits and limitations, or is this just a gut-reaction? I remember the same extreme reactions back when I suggested cutting Silence xD
He was talking about the list I recommended in the updated Opening Post, where I do play Carpet of Flowers in the sideboard. Yes, I do want several green spells in my sideboard if they're the best spells at what they do. I'm running a pair of Gemstone Mine along with the searchable Bayou in order to be able to support these cards.
There's a huge difference between cutting Chrome Mox for additional lands and swapping Silence back to Duress. Extreme reactions are somewhat to be expected when you're suggesting an overhaul of the deck's core.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
He was talking about the list I recommended in the updated Opening Post, where I do play Carpet of Flowers in the sideboard. Yes, I do want several green spells in my sideboard if they're the best spells at what they do. I'm running a pair of Gemstone Mine along with the searchable Bayou in order to be able to support these cards.
There's a huge difference between cutting Chrome Mox for additional lands and swapping Silence back to Duress. Extreme reactions are somewhat to be expected when you're suggesting an overhaul of the deck's core.
For me the message was "why should I bother with crappy CoT if I can fix mana issues with Carpet?" and he seems to miss that such suggested transition don't come without "a rats tail".
I care a lot about that secondary effects of changes like manacurve, color-balance, etc. and that's why I took the time and honest to explain changes/ideas, their weaknesses and required changes to play-routines, which include working towards floating mana among others for this particular idea. It drives me mad if I, despite all the explanation, see comments like "but it's worse if you cast AN with zero float!" which are not only obvious, because I mentioned the issue and work-arounds from the start, BUT reveal a certain lack of thought-flexibility, maybe because the deck spoiled it's pilots by it's Ad Nauseams (despite zero mana float) pretty much guaranteeing a win the same turn you casted it. I chopped that; I know what the result is; I communicated it. The same as for T1 Goblins or hellbent-problems. Maybe I should have picked another videogame reference for explaining the change as the "Triforce" was sticky for Probe/Therapy/EtW *laugh*
I don't feel we simply "swapped" Silence and Duress, as the "rats tail" (is that used in AE or BE the same way as in german?) was no more timewalking, no more blanking counterspells like Spell Snare or Stifle, no more outs to Leyline of Sanctity, etc. which I got flak for in Nov '13 despite me hinting on the benefits which I thought should make up for the losses.
Maybe this idea, which I begun to work at after Kai Thiele messaged me on FB about him looking for a storm deck "which can blow out your opponent early BUT ALSO can grind", is even more controverse than the removal of Silence and I admit, I wasn't prepared to fight so hard for people at least goldfishing with it (and do it with the required change of the routine), before the idea gets neglected, which created a balance between ANTs midgame manapower and TES' efficient Ad Nauseams & quick combos, which I think is the direction Kai was asking for (who hates EtW anyways) even if I think that the numbers sure need tweaking.
I recommend rewatching most of Bryants matches in video-list of the OP to get a feeling of how often games go to turn 3 and beyond vs. turn 1 goblins and the role of drawn Moxen.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
For me the message was "why should I bother with crappy CoT if I can fix mana issues with Carpet?" and he seems to miss that such suggested transition don't come without "a rats tail".
My guess to what "A rats tail" means is downside? My counterargument would be, even if that was his attitude it has merit. Why change the core of our deck, when we can fix your suggested issues with a sideboard slot? You're sacrificing a lot to gain very little in my opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
I care a lot about that secondary effects of changes like manacurve, color-balance, etc. and that's why I took the time and honest to explain changes/ideas, their weaknesses and required changes to play-routines, which include working towards floating mana among others for this particular idea. It drives me mad if I, despite all the explanation, see comments like "but it's worse if you cast AN with zero float!" which are not only obvious, because I mentioned the issue and work-arounds from the start, BUT reveal a certain lack of thought-flexibility, maybe because the deck spoiled it's pilots by it's Ad Nauseams (despite zero mana float) pretty much guaranteeing a win the same turn you casted it. I chopped that; I know what the result is; I communicated it. The same as for T1 Goblins or hellbent-problems. Maybe I should have picked another videogame reference for explaining the change as the "Triforce" was sticky for Probe/Therapy/EtW *laugh*
I put a lot of thought into my comments, concerns and deck decisions. Just because we don't see eye to eye doesn't mean either one of us is wrong, from where I'm standing you're views on what you want to accomplish are moving toward a slower deck that resembles ANT. I don't want that as it causes us to become something else, where you're going may end up being another hybrid of the two. In either case, if I made a change that drastic I wouldn't expect others to be so ecstatic about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
I don't feel we simply "swapped" Silence and Duress, as the "rats tail" (is that used in AE or BE the same way as in german?) was no more timewalking, no more blanking counterspells like Spell Snare or Stifle, no more outs to Leyline of Sanctity, etc. which I got flak for in Nov '13 despite me hinting on the benefits which I thought should make up for the losses.
Sure, they each have upsides and downsides. We made the switch more based on the fact that discard strategies were becoming incredibly popular in which Silence did nothing and the fact that Duress is better paired with Cabal Therapy. It was a swap, moving on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
Maybe this idea, which I begun to work at after Kai Thiele messaged me on FB about him looking for a storm deck "which can blow out your opponent early BUT ALSO can grind", is even more controverse than the removal of Silence and I admit, I wasn't prepared to fight so hard for people at least goldfishing with it (and do it with the required change of the routine), before the idea gets neglected, which created a balance between ANTs midgame manapower and TES' efficient Ad Nauseams & quick combos, which I think is the direction Kai was asking for (who hates EtW anyways) even if I think that the numbers sure need tweaking.
Perhaps you're looking for a different deck? It's not our problem if Kai hates Empty, I still love it. If you're actively trying to merge the two decks, I think you're looking in the wrong place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
I recommend rewatching most of Bryants matches in video-list of the OP to get a feeling of how often games go to turn 3 and beyond vs. turn 1 goblins and the role of drawn Moxen.
Sure, watch the one where Empty single handily beats Ben Friedman for me or how fast my match was against Todd Anderson or Reid Duke. There's also videos where the games go long and the deck prevails, look at my finals match against Ben Green. TES has late-game power too, while it may not be as strong as ANTs it's still there we happen to be much faster so our late game is less relevant.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
@bryant cook, thanks for the update on your recent list. At my LGS there are a lot of bug delvers, you would bring in xantid swarm against them? you recommend other cards in sideboard for this matchup besides the ones you have ?
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ancestral
@bryant cook, thanks for the update on your recent list. At my LGS there are a lot of bug delvers, you would bring in xantid swarm against them? you recommend other cards in sideboard for this matchup besides the ones you have ?
Not to be rude, but if you read the opening post you would've found your answer under "Tempo decks" where I specifically state not to side them in against BUG Delver. I wouldn't sideboard for that match-up as Carpet is worse due to the number of Bayou/Deathrite Shaman paired with Abrupt Decay.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
Not to be rude, but if you read the opening post you would've found your answer under "Tempo decks" where I specifically state not to side them in against BUG Delver. I wouldn't sideboard for that match-up as Carpet is worse due to the number of Bayou/Deathrite Shaman paired with Abrupt Decay.
Bryant, what are your thoughts on going up a duress and down a cabal and possibly moving it back to the board as a wish target?
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
culby218
Bryant, what are your thoughts on going up a duress and down a cabal and possibly moving it back to the board as a wish target?
I would only do that if you're not playing Empty in the main deck, the synergy between the two is incredible and often steals games. Therapy is also good in more match-ups, unlike Duress. Lastly, I'm likely not going to play a protection spell wish target in the near future, it's often a wasted slot.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
Not to be rude, but if you read the opening post you would've found your answer under "Tempo decks" where I specifically state not to side them in against BUG Delver. I wouldn't sideboard for that match-up as Carpet is worse due to the number of Bayou/Deathrite Shaman paired with Abrupt Decay.
hum i see, i didnīt saw that point, sorry about that ;) i hope to see you more on camera in scg events or other big events :D
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
I've been on TES for about a week. Forgive me if the answers to my questions are obvious.
I find myself wanting an additional storm engine when Ad Nauseam isn't possible. Does anyone remember where the removal of Diminishing Returns and Ill-Gotten Gains occurred in the thread? I tried the 'Advanced Search' function but it doesn't seem to work too well. Has anyone tested Infernal Contract in the side board? I like that it can be cast off just Burning Wish + LED, and perhaps 4 cards is enough to turn around a losing game depending on what you already have in hand.
Carpet of Flowers, Chain of Vapor and Abrupt Decay have been all stars in the SB for me. I haven't found much use for Void Snare quite yet. In which matchups is it at its best? (only Leyline of Sanctity?)
If it's determined that Xantid Swarm isn't good against Miracles, then is it really worth playing? Wouldn't needles be better because they also stabilize our mana base against Wasteland decks?
I've been toying with Goblin War Strike and Telemin Performance. It's quite pleasing when I'm able to win off of those, even though they're likely "incorrect".
When trying to bait out counters with Burning Wish, I feel like there should be a "set up" spell we can grab in the case they let it resolve. I try to trade my tutors for their counters when I have multiples. If wish resolves, and I expect them to counter it, I'm not sure what I even want to grab. This makes me think that it might be nice to be able to grab either a Thoughtseize or Rite of Flame. When I'm flooded on tutors I try to use Infernal Tutor to copy my RoF so that I can have 3x RoF on my kill turn which is usually sufficient for PiF kills since the Infernal is already in the GY.
Is there a better way I should go about playing around multiple hard counters? I try to dig for discard but can't always find it, so I resort to "trading" with their spells. I suppose this is a scenario when Silence is preferable because it's more of a "must" counter, at least if they don't know what's in your hand: http://imgur.com/OKEBEtt
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
vizari
I've been on TES for about a week. Forgive me if the answers to my questions are obvious.
I find myself wanting an additional storm engine when Ad Nauseam isn't possible. Does anyone remember where the removal of Diminishing Returns and Ill-Gotten Gains occurred in the thread? I tried the 'Advanced Search' function but it doesn't seem to work too well. Has anyone tested Infernal Contract in the side board? I like that it can be cast off just Burning Wish + LED, and perhaps 4 cards is enough to turn around a losing game depending on what you already have in hand.
Past in Flames is your backup engine typically, since it's very resilient against discard. Contract seems bad because in a matchup where youre quickly losing life, you wouldnt want to cut your life in half against them anyway. Cruise was tested a while ago, but i dont know if anyone particularly liked it. I might consider IGG, just because Burn and Storm are really popular on MTGO, but I don't think its that good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
vizari
Carpet of Flowers, Chain of Vapor and Abrupt Decay have been all stars in the SB for me. I haven't found much use for Void Snare quite yet. In which matchups is it at its best? (only Leyline of Sanctity?)
If it's determined that Xantid Swarm isn't good against Miracles, then is it really worth playing? Wouldn't needles be better because they also stabilize our mana base against Wasteland decks?
I've been toying with Goblin War Strike and Telemin Performance. It's quite pleasing when I'm able to win off of those, even though they're likely "incorrect".
Snare is just a catch all, stops you from losing to, like, Teeg or Leyline or something odd like Marit Lage. It also has corner-case applications like getting a Batterskull off your back by bouncing the token so they have to return and show it in again. In weird scenarios it can also bounce an artifact and replay it, so between it, snare, and LED/Petal you can trade 3 mana for 3 storm if youre trying a natural spell chain.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
vizari
When trying to bait out counters with Burning Wish, I feel like there should be a "set up" spell we can grab in the case they let it resolve. I try to trade my tutors for their counters when I have multiples. If wish resolves, and I expect them to counter it, I'm not sure what I even want to grab. This makes me think that it might be nice to be able to grab either a Thoughtseize or Rite of Flame. When I'm flooded on tutors I try to use Infernal Tutor to copy my RoF so that I can have 3x RoF on my kill turn which is usually sufficient for PiF kills since the Infernal is already in the GY.
Tutor copying Rituals is fine. I wouldnt side Rite out for the reason that opening multiples is important. If the primer's sb plans, you'll notice Ponder gets sided out as a singleton a lot. It's an ok Wish target when youre just using Wish as bait. I can think of a couple times I've wished for Ponders, I've had one strange game where I baited w/ a Wish, grabbed EtW, baited with a Tutor, ended up duping the EtW, and then storming out with both, it was odd. Generally, though, even without SB Thoughtseize or w/e, it's easy to get value from Wishes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
vizari
Is there a better way I should go about playing around multiple hard counters? I try to dig for discard but can't always find it, so I resort to "trading" with their spells. I suppose this is a scenario when Silence is preferable because it's more of a "must" counter, at least if they don't know what's in your hand:
http://imgur.com/OKEBEtt
I wouldn't start trading until you're at 8 in hand, since making repeated probing trades to gain info/erode defenses stopped being good now that blue decks can just refill with Dig/Cruise. Against Stoneblade or Delver or w/e, if I can't go off fast, I just focus on hitting land drops, building up to 8 and then forcing though with multiple tools to break through. This is particularly good on the draw, and also because Wish increases storm count and makes Tendrils kills pretty viable.
EDIT: As an aside, if Stoneblade continues to increase in popularity, and techs that I see like Envelop and Counterspell become more prevalent, I may actually load up 5c TES...
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
vizari
I've been on TES for about a week. Forgive me if the answers to my questions are obvious.
I find myself wanting an additional storm engine when Ad Nauseam isn't possible. Does anyone remember where the removal of Diminishing Returns and Ill-Gotten Gains occurred in the thread? I tried the 'Advanced Search' function but it doesn't seem to work too well. Has anyone tested Infernal Contract in the side board? I like that it can be cast off just Burning Wish + LED, and perhaps 4 cards is enough to turn around a losing game depending on what you already have in hand.
Dim.Ret and IGG left the deck after Silence was cut as the cards are simply bad against any blue deck and not required against non-blue due to the fact that those decks cannot prevent EtW or AN anyways. You can find most on the topic around Dec. '13 inthis thread. Bryant toyed with Infernal Contract and I with Doomsday. Both cards were simply not good enough to win from a position which rendered AN and EtW useless. PIF was the only card which did and remained in the SB as our primary Backup engine. Trying to "turn around" a game with TES is doomed as you have to be the aggressor in each game you play. If you lose the Position in which your opponent can only react to your plays and he/she is suddenly in the drivers seat, you are going to lose anyways.
In many games in which your life total drops fast, you don't even need an engine but can work towards a natural spellchain instead
Quote:
Originally Posted by
vizari
Carpet of Flowers, Chain of Vapor and Abrupt Decay have been all stars in the SB for me. I haven't found much use for Void Snare quite yet. In which matchups is it at its best? (only Leyline of Sanctity?)
If it's determined that Xantid Swarm isn't good against Miracles, then is it really worth playing? Wouldn't needles be better because they also stabilize our mana base against Wasteland decks?
Void Snare is a catch-all for game 1's and for redundant bounce-effects game 2 and 3. Ergo you are never dead to unexpected hate like Leyline, game 1 Ruric Thar/Eidolon/Marit Lage/etc. You get the idea. As the OP highlights, Xantids are not for Miracles but for decks which are unable to remove it and overload on non-creature-counters like Flusterstorm/Spell Pierce/Spell Snare/Stifle. Examples are Reanimator/SneakShow/12-Post/Meerfolk/etc. Boarding them against Miracles is gambling against their reduced removal game 2/3 and reasonable if your find the slots to board them in addition to your other hate. Both Needle and Xantids are valid options.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
vizari
I've been toying with Goblin War Strike and Telemin Performance. It's quite pleasing when I'm able to win off of those, even though they're likely "incorrect".
While Telemin or Bribery are reasonable options for local metas, War Strike is totally off. If you resolved EtW, your opponent has to be dead. Period. Opting for a Wish AFTER you already cast EtW is not only an unlikely scenario but also a pure win-more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
vizari
When trying to bait out counters with Burning Wish, I feel like there should be a "set up" spell we can grab in the case they let it resolve. I try to trade my tutors for their counters when I have multiples. If wish resolves, and I expect them to counter it, I'm not sure what I even want to grab.
Casting Wishes without the intent to grab something from the Sideboard is a hilarious waste of time, cards and mana. It's like casting Ponder and having to clue what you are looking for in the first place and losing as a result of drawing cards you like, but not the cards you actually need. PIF is always nice to have as is EtW is you have the option to burst out a few Goblins with CT(s) in the graveyard. This is really not a topic at all
Quote:
Originally Posted by
vizari
This makes me think that it might be nice to be able to grab either a Thoughtseize or Rite of Flame. When I'm flooded on tutors I try to use Infernal Tutor to copy my RoF so that I can have 3x RoF on my kill turn which is usually sufficient for PiF kills since the Infernal is already in the GY.
You want to Wish for RoF and then Wiah again for PIF? You want to remove cheap Rituals from a deck which wants to flip them to AN or have then in your owning hand for T1/2 Goblin bursts? This suggestion is not sound
Quote:
Originally Posted by
vizari
Is there a better way I should go about playing around multiple hard counters? I try to dig for discard but can't always find it, so I resort to "trading" with their spells. I suppose this is a scenario when Silence is preferable because it's more of a "must" counter, at least if they don't know what's in your hand:
http://imgur.com/OKEBEtt
Multiple hardcounters? Usually you can exhaust those with discard and PIF to flashback the discard and cantrips. Most problems also don't even occur if you are fast enough. Silence does not necessarily help if your opponent indeed has several castable hardcounters. You can only strip 1 counter like discard would unless the hardcounters you talk about are exactly the ones I mentioned before in terms of Xantid Swarm.
Edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wonderPreaux
EDIT: As an aside, if Stoneblade continues to increase in popularity, and techs that I see like Envelop and Counterspell become more prevalent, I may actually load up 5c TES...
I fear hatebears from their SB much more than additional counters. All those counters and especially slow ones like counterspell are a joke. It's your Bread and Butter to dismember passive opponents sitting behind counters. In fact, the whole Stoneblade-supertype was the reason I split up with the white Instant
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
So one card I haven't seen discussed much is overmaster.
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Ca...iverseid=29868
I'm going to be trying is as my flex sideboard slot. I've often felt that I have to use wishes to bait counters, and if they don't bite, I'm not punishing them enough with whatever I wish for. This is a mini silence that can help you force through an infernal. You can also use the draw trigger plus LEDs for fun with brainstorm set-up.
I don't know for sure that it will be good, but I'm going to try it this week in testing. Anyone have experience with this card?
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
redhamjack
So one card I haven't seen discussed much is overmaster.
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Ca...iverseid=29868
I'm going to be trying is as my flex sideboard slot. I've often felt that I have to use wishes to bait counters, and if they don't bite, I'm not punishing them enough with whatever I wish for. This is a mini silence that can help you force through an infernal. You can also use the draw trigger plus LEDs for fun with brainstorm set-up.
I don't know for sure that it will be good, but I'm going to try it this week in testing. Anyone have experience with this card?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
First: read the card. It says the NEXT instant or sorcery. It's totally pointless if your Infernal/Wish can't be countered but the fetched AN/EtW can still be FoW'd or Flusterstormed. It costs also 1 mana ... the same amount a discard Spell costs to get rid of the counterspell you want to Dodge with Overmaster.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
redhamjack
So one card I haven't seen discussed much is overmaster.
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Ca...iverseid=29868
I'm going to be trying is as my flex sideboard slot. I've often felt that I have to use wishes to bait counters, and if they don't bite, I'm not punishing them enough with whatever I wish for. This is a mini silence that can help you force through an infernal. You can also use the draw trigger plus LEDs for fun with brainstorm set-up.
I don't know for sure that it will be good, but I'm going to try it this week in testing. Anyone have experience with this card?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It's actually pretty bad with Infernal Tutor as it requires you to have an LED (You're no longer hellbent). Also, you're forced to get Empty the Warrens as Ad Nauseam can be countered. I'd say it's pretty weak.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Good points. I guess a discard spell would be better. I was going through every rbu sorcery for potential wish targets thought I might have found a diamond in the rough
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
I fear hatebears from their SB much more than additional counters. All those counters and especially slow ones like counterspell are a joke. It's your Bread and Butter to dismember passive opponents sitting behind counters. In fact, the whole Stoneblade-supertype was the reason I split up with the white Instant
The only hatebear of I've seen is Meddling Mage, which can't actually beat me if I side in Tendrils. Canonist detracts from their flurry of plays w/ Pyromancer, and black control is at an all time low due to Cruise. If this trend continues, and I have to looks at cards like Envelop and Hydroblast, then doesn't it make sense to be playing Silence? Not only that, but Storm has been 30% of the meta in the last 2 dailies I played...
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wonderPreaux
The only hatebear of I've seen is Meddling Mage, which can't actually beat me if I side in Tendrils. Canonist detracts from their flurry of plays w/ Pyromancer, and black control is at an all time low due to Cruise. If this trend continues, and I have to looks at cards like Envelop and Hydroblast, then doesn't it make sense to be playing Silence? Not only that, but Storm has been 30% of the meta in the last 2 dailies I played...
Forgot that people started mindlessly copying BBDs UWR Pyromancer build. I still had the classic Patriot in mind for that color combination and those decks ran Canonist + Meddling Mage in the SB like Deathblade does. Storm Mirrors are no reason for Silence unless you keep playing against idiots. This matchup is defined by delaying your opponents combo with stategic targeted discard and most ANT players know they can't race you anyways so they mull into discard to drag out the game and their Cabal Rituals take over which leaves the Silence plan pretty vulnerable as it presents the same laughable one-trick pony Mindbreak Trap is because it is revealed via Duress/Therapy/Probe
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Is there any collection of data to give approximate percentages for Match-Ups?
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MiracleMan
Is there any collection of data to give approximate percentages for Match-Ups?
No. I can't take any matchup-percentages serious anyways, which is clear if you look through most opening posts throughout this forum. The best you can get is an understanding of the problems which can occur in each matchup instead and estimate how this impacts your gameplan
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Testing a newish idea right now: swapping all three Chrome Moxen for Simian Spirit Guides. Reason: SSG is MUCH better when you have it in your hand, though it's weaker post Ad Nauseam. Played about 20 games with this setup tonight. Findings thus far:
1. Do NOT go for Ad Nauseam without mana floating, we need preferably B. But with a mana floating after Ad Nauseam I have not killed myself yet. SSG costs a lot of life, but the mana helps me win, so it's not that bad.
2. The SSG in hand is very good. Especially against taxing counters, but generally it is just nice to have.
3. The fact that SSG doesn't make storm has yet to be an issue.
4. Infernal Tutor is marginally worse without LED since going hellbent is now slightly harder. Good thing I run one on side now.
5. The fact that SSG ONLY makes red mana has not yet been a problem, but I expect it will prove a challenge every now and then.
Edit: list for reference.
Cantrips+Business:
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Burning Wish
3 Infernal Tutor
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam /21
Accelleration:
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
3 Simian Spirit Guide /19
Protection:
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress /7
Lands:
3 Gemstone Mine
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta /13
Sideboard:
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past of Flames
1 Diminishing Returns.
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Grapeshot
1 Void Snare
1 Duress.
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
1 Tropical Island /15
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Asthereal
Testing a newish idea right now: swapping all three Chrome Moxen for Simian Spirit Guides. Reason: SSG is MUCH better when you have it in your hand, though it's weaker post Ad Nauseam. Played about 20 games with this setup tonight. Findings thus far:
1. Do NOT go for Ad Nauseam without mana floating, we need preferably B. But with a mana floating after Ad Nauseam I have not killed myself yet. SSG costs a lot of life, but the mana helps me win, so it's not that bad.
2. The SSG in hand is very good. Especially against taxing counters, but generally it is just nice to have.
3. The fact that SSG doesn't make storm has yet to be an issue.
4. Infernal Tutor is marginally worse without LED since going hellbent is now slightly harder. Good thing I run one on side now.
5. The fact that SSG ONLY makes red mana has not yet been a problem, but I expect it will prove a challenge every now and then.
Edit: list for reference.
Cantrips+Business:
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Burning Wish
3 Infernal Tutor
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam /21
Accelleration:
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
3 Simian Spirit Guide /19
Protection:
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress /7
Lands:
3 Gemstone Mine
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta /13
Sideboard:
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past of Flames
1 Diminishing Returns.
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Grapeshot
1 Void Snare
1 Duress.
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
1 Tropical Island /15
Imo it's up for debate if the "requirement" for floated mana is any easier to achieve than with the Sol lands even if the card sure has clear advantages over the Mox in your starting grip and is sure better than the Sol Lands.
The Problem every time I tested two or more SSGs was the damage, if I have things like Probes, Fetchlands, opposing Bolts/Delvers to consider during my goldfishing. You want to get hands on Petals, Rituals, Rites and Diamonds paired with a tutor or Wish instead of flipping SSGs, EtW or cantrips and dealing yourself 3 damage on the way towards the prior set of cards via AN flips isn't helping (how much less cards do 3 damage equal via Ad Nauseam? 3-5 says my gut with this configuration). I even had to cut EtW from the Main for my flips with an estimated mana floated and my testing with SSG tells me that you deal yourself about 9 damage during the game before AN flipped the 5th card in an average goldfish game and I expect it to be very critical with all the Delvers and Bolts around.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
Imo it's up for debate if the "requirement" for floated mana is any easier to achieve than with the Sol lands even if the card sure has clear advantages over the Mox in your starting grip and is sure better than the Sol Lands.
The Problem every time I tested two or more SSGs was the damage, if I have things like Probes, Fetchlands, opposing Bolts/Delvers to consider during my goldfishing. You want to get hands on Petals, Rituals, Rites and Diamonds paired with a tutor or Wish instead of flipping SSGs, EtW or cantrips and dealing yourself 3 damage on the way towards the prior set of cards via AN flips isn't helping (how much less cards do 3 damage equal via Ad Nauseam? 3-5 says my gut with this configuration). I even had to cut EtW from the Main for my flips with an estimated mana floated and my testing with SSG tells me that you deal yourself about 9 damage during the game before AN flipped the 5th card in an average goldfish game and I expect it to be very critical with all the Delvers and Bolts around.
It sure has its disadvantages, but I want to try it out.
Mox just sucks when you draw it. Two cards to make one mana is just bad.
I'm not sold on it yet, but so far it has been fine actually.
For the math: the OP list has an average CMC of ~0,95 I believe (not counting Ad Nauseam).
So every SSG flip "costs" 3,16 cards.
So Ad Nauseam now requires more to set up, to make fizzling as unlikely as possible.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Just a quick post - I've now played a fair amount since making the switch from Tropical Island to Bayou and it has performed very well for me. I now believe it is superior to the Tropical Island; especially given that we board out Ponder so frequently when bringing in our green cards.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
vercadium
Just a quick post - I've now played a fair amount since making the switch from Tropical Island to Bayou and it has performed very well for me. I now believe it is superior to the Tropical Island; especially given that we board out Ponder so frequently when bringing in our green cards.
That's an excellent point, Adam. The T1 cantrip issue is indeed less of a topic if Ponders are the premier slots to board.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Asthereal
It sure has its disadvantages, but I want to try it out.
Mox just sucks when you draw it. Two cards to make one mana is just bad.
I'm not sold on it yet, but so far it has been fine actually.
For the math: the OP list has an average CMC of ~0,95 I believe (not counting Ad Nauseam).
So every SSG flip "costs" 3,16 cards.
So Ad Nauseam now requires more to set up, to make fizzling as unlikely as possible.
Testing is always fine. I've just been there and tried it too. The calculation for flipped cards also needs to take into consideration that you need to stop once you go below 4 life as your list Features 4 sudden-Death cards now, and comes on top of the estimated loss in cards via cmc you already calculated with 3,16. A third point to consider would be stopping to flip cards early so you can pass a turn if your flips are so bad that you can't win the same turn due to a lack of mana (say you flip 2 Tutors, 2 SSG, etc. but not enough Rituals to power up 6-8 mana). So, there are 3 factors that harm your ANs in the end.
Two cards to make a single mana is in fact bad pre-AN as you have to create 6+ mana for your T1/2 combo with your handcards (mulligans!). There is space for discussion if a 3cc red initial mana Source is better in an Ad Nauseam deck than colorless Sol Lands in terms of floating mana and damage off flips, if you are as willing as I am to put more work into AN setups.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
vercadium
Just a quick post - I've now played a fair amount since making the switch from Tropical Island to Bayou and it has performed very well for me. I now believe it is superior to the Tropical Island; especially given that we board out Ponder so frequently when bringing in our green cards.
I don't like Bayou, but it has the same problems as Tropical:
In a dual heavy mana base you need three lands to be able to cast all your cards.
From that point of view, casting cantrips to find more lands may be necessary.
And for casting cantrips, I need blue, hence my choice for Tropical.
At some point I suggested Taiga instead, which got burned to the ground.
Reason: it doesn't cast utility cards (Duress, Therapy). Which is true, of course.
The upside of it, is that with Sea and Taiga, we get to cast everything we have from two lands.
And the first land we fetch is Sea anyways, so it doesn't have to be that big of an issue.
But during testing I too often didn't really like Taiga, so I'm back at Tropical. Which is fine I think.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Asthereal
I don't like Bayou, but it has the same problems as Tropical:
In a dual heavy mana base you need three lands to be able to cast all your cards.
From that point of view, casting cantrips to find more lands may be necessary.
And for casting cantrips, I need blue, hence my choice for Tropical.
At some point I suggested Taiga instead, which got burned to the ground.
Reason: it doesn't cast utility cards (Duress, Therapy). Which is true, of course.
The upside of it, is that with Sea and Taiga, we get to cast everything we have from two lands.
And the first land we fetch is Sea anyways, so it doesn't have to be that big of an issue.
But during testing I too often didn't really like Taiga, so I'm back at Tropical. Which is fine I think.
The advantage of Taiga + U.Sea is casting Abrupt Decay which Volcanic + Bayou can't. The downside however is that the Taiga + U.Sea combination is unable to support a cantrip-into-disruption playline which I still consider more relevant for turn 3 Kills than the ability of cast Decay off two lands against matchups which are very slow anyways and you have plenty of time to drop 3+ lands.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
The advantage of Taiga + U.Sea is casting Abrupt Decay which Volcanic + Bayou can't. The downside however is that the Taiga + U.Sea combination is unable to support a cantrip-into-disruption playline which I still consider more relevant for turn 3 Kills than the ability of cast Decay off two lands against matchups which are very slow anyways and you have plenty of time to drop 3+ lands.
You don't board Decays against hate bear decks?
But the reasons are valid. I only posted the Taiga thing to show the complete picture.
I don't run Taiga, because it doesn't help me set up from a bad situation. Tropical does.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Asthereal
You don't board Decays against hate bear decks?
But the reasons are valid. I only posted the Taiga thing to show the complete picture.
I don't run Taiga, because it doesn't help me set up from a bad situation. Tropical does.
I do not if I have at least 2 CoV in the board, otherwise I board them for games on the draw as I can't even use a single turn for setting up the Belcher Mode. I board out the Ponders as a result and sit on Fetches forever, with the exception of Wishing for Massacre against D&T.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
I do not if I have at least 2 CoV in the board, otherwise I board them for games on the draw as I can't even use a single turn for setting up the Belcher Mode. I board out the Ponders as a result and sit on Fetches forever, with the exception of Wishing for Massacre against D&T.
Ok. :smile: I don't play Massacre, because there's not enough Death & Taxes and Maverick in the Netherlands to commit a slot to. Besides, it's still a fine matchup.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
Testing is always fine. I've just been there and tried it too. The calculation for flipped cards also needs to take into consideration that you need to stop once you go below 4 life as your list Features 4 sudden-Death cards now, and comes on top of the estimated loss in cards via cmc you already calculated with 3,16. A third point to consider would be stopping to flip cards early so you can pass a turn if your flips are so bad that you can't win the same turn due to a lack of mana (say you flip 2 Tutors, 2 SSG, etc. but not enough Rituals to power up 6-8 mana). So, there are 3 factors that harm your ANs in the end.
Two cards to make a single mana is in fact bad pre-AN as you have to create 6+ mana for your T1/2 combo with your handcards (mulligans!). There is space for discussion if a 3cc red initial mana Source is better in an Ad Nauseam deck than colorless Sol Lands in terms of floating mana and damage off flips, if you are as willing as I am to put more work into AN setups.
Perhaps SSG asks for a slightly different playing approach.
Perhaps playing SSG is not optimal.
Perhaps a split between SSG and Mox is optimal.
I'm not sure yet, but I'll keep trying for a while.
Chrome Mox is by far our worst card, and I am willing to put up with a great deal to be able to ditch it. :tongue:
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Asthereal
Ok. :smile: I don't play Massacre, because there's not enough Death & Taxes and Maverick in the Netherlands to commit a slot to. Besides, it's still a fine matchup.
That's fine! As I ever say: Take from the thread, discussion and lists what offers value for you, your metagame and playstyle and ignore the rest. :)
NINJA-EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Asthereal
Chrome Mox is by far our worst card, and I am willing to put up with a great deal to be able to ditch it. :tongue:
Same here. That's what the meddling is all about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Asthereal
Perhaps SSG asks for a slightly different playing approach.
The most important observation; the core of any approach to TES without Moxen; the reason I was so annoyed to read "but AN with zero mana float are much worse!". You HAVE to change your play routine pre-AN if a resolved AN without mana float isn't a guaranteed win anymore and because you are used to flip all these 0cc IMS' you had in the deck before.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
That's fine! As I ever say: Take from the thread, discussion and lists what offers value for you, your metagame and playstyle and ignore the rest. :)
True. :wink:
Edit: decided not to use this part for edits. :cool: Oh wait...
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Asthereal
True. :wink:
I will reserve this spot in my post to edit in my reaction to your reaction to the edit of my last post. :laugh::eek::tongue:
We're back to NINJA EDIT WARS?
NINJA-EDIT:
added edit as reaction to your last edit in my last post
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
We're back to NINJA EDIT WARS?
I hope not. That's really confusing. :rolleyes:
Surprise, still a ninja edit!!! :cry:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
The most important observation; the core of any approach to TES without Moxen; the reason I was so annoyed to read "but AN with zero mana float are much worse!". You HAVE to change your play routine pre-AN if a resolved AN without mana float isn't a guaranteed win anymore and because you are used to flip all these 0cc IMS' you had in the deck before.
Exactly. It's like in ANT. It requires a slightly different setup.
That doesn't necessarily make it worse.
It is if you play the exact same way as before, but that's just not very smart.
TES used to play out differently in the past anyway.
We've adapted from Ill-Gotten Gains to Past in Flames, which requires a different setup.
The addition of Cabal Therapy is another example, because we can now go for Empty in situations where we couldn't before.
The deck is changing all the time, and our approach adapts to the new tech. Or at least it should. :smile:
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
My problem with these suggestions is that they slow the deck down, which I am not interested in doing. Waiting until you have mana to float and the removal of Empty from the main deck causes the deck to be slower. If we're slower, we might as well play multiple Cabal Rituals and Past in Flames.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
My problem with these suggestions is that they slow the deck down, which I am not interested in doing. Waiting until you have mana to float and the removal of Empty from the main deck causes the deck to be slower. If we're slower, we might as well play multiple Cabal Rituals and Past in Flames.
Except that you still have double the business spells compared to ANT for quick combos via LED and can't be hated out/slowed down by graveyard hate, which is there I see the spot for this particular idea between ANT and Mox-TES
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
My problem with these suggestions is that they slow the deck down, which I am not interested in doing. Waiting until you have mana to float and the removal of Empty from the main deck causes the deck to be slower. If we're slower, we might as well play multiple Cabal Rituals and Past in Flames.
That depends. Coughing up an army of Goblin tokens is actually easier with SSG.
It's true that setting up Ad Nauseam is slightly harder with SSG over Mox.
So it kind of depends on what you want to do.
I will keep on testing this idea, because in the first round it wasn't as annoying as I feared it would be.
