the end of era... yeah
totally new ways to build 12 post, in my point of view
eh =(
Printable View
the end of era... yeah
totally new ways to build 12 post, in my point of view
eh =(
4/24/2017. The day miracles died...and 12post too.
Sylvan Library, Mirri's Guile moving on nothing changed.
Losing Top isn't the end of the world. I cut Top from my Cg list over a year ago. We still have plenty of excellent card-selection options.
The biggest blow is just losing a Miracles-heavy metagame. And I'm concerned about a rise in combo as a result.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Agreed. I'm also concerned about blood moon decks though. CG should be ok depending on meta change, but UG took a heavy hit either way.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBoozeCube
So anyway, let's get down to business. Where do we go from here? Is Mono-Green the path we'll take? Maybe implement Dark Depths, maybe try to be a faster deck like modern tron? Or maybe go in a more MUD kind of direction. I'm not a veteran of this deck so I'd just like to hear people's thoughts on what direction we go. Or if someone has something they'd like others to test, throw it out there.
This is my mono green list adjusted for top ban. Thinking a combo/aggro heavy meta game with an increase in wasteland nonsense.
Main
1x Bojuka Bog
4x Cloudpost
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Eye of Ugin
6x Forest
1x Glacial Chasm
4x Glimmerpost
1x Karakas
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4x Vesuva
3x Misty Rainforest
2x Candelabra of Tawnos
3x Expedition Map
3x Pithing Needle
4x Crop Rotation
4x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1x Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1x Oracle of Mul Daya
4x Primeval Titan
3x Sakura-Tribe Elder
3x Walking Ballista
1x Sylvan Library
1x Mirri's Guile
1x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
side
1x All Is Dust
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Krosan Grip
3x Mindbreak Trap
3x Moment's Peace
1x Reclamation Sage
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Walking Ballista
I recommended Colorless Green. The only thing it really loses is Miracles for free wins. I cut my Tops a long time ago and haven't missed them. Here's my current list:Quote:
Originally Posted by treesgobark
Creatures:4
2 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Spells:28
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Crop Rotation
4 Expedition Map
3 Pithing Needle
1 Spatial Contortion
4 Warping Wail
2 All Is Dust
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Lands:28
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Cloudpost
1 Eye of Ugin
7 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Glimmerpost
1 Karakas
2 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Thespian's Stage
4 Vesuva
1 Wastes
Sideboard:15
1 Silent Arbiter
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Spatial Contortion
3 Sphere of Resistance
3 Krosan Grip
1 Trinisphere
1 Dark Depths
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Whelp had great success with nissa this weekend was going to shed some light. That took a huge hit. I can try to make it work without top but most likely a waste of time. It was the key card to u/g. Also, our best match up Will be way down. It was a fun run, but I just don't see it working anymore. Gc is ok but for u/g for repeal tricks to draw 2 and then look at 3 etc deck is done. Discard can wreck u now and no more hiding counter magic. Sad day...the colorless eldrazi with anti combo most likely the way to go now. If someone finds a way to make u/g purr without it lemme know. Otherwise, best of luck guys.
What are peoples thoughts on Soothsaying for UG? Personally I think UG may want to go stirrings route going more colorless to replace top.
CG seems like it will be fine, theboozecube was running lists without. I was running 3 tops, may replace with Guile but still working it out. Library is sketchy with the amount of incoming leovolds.
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Karakas
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Pithing Needle
4 Vesuva
7 Forest
4 Ancient Stirrings
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 Crop Rotation
4 Expedition Map
2 Trinisphere
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Conduit of Ruin
2 tangle wire
4 Leyline of the void
2 Moment’s peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
1 Warping Wail
Here is my current list post top ban. I am running tangle and 3 ball for combo deckhand h8. I think i will be fine cuz i can coast against the 3/4 color control and tangle wire is great against delver decks. I refuse to drop green for more lock pieces and MUD esque things. Crop rotation is great and ancient stirrings allows for the perfect response to any situation. Multiple tangles is also fantastic.
I want to change a Krosaan grip to a more efficient piece of chalice on 1/ blood moon removal. I am scared of non blue prison decks and would like suggestions for non one drop artifact/enchantment removal. HALP PLZ
I also probably want some amount of cursed totem for elves h8. HALP
Nature's claim is your 1 drop artifact/enchantment removal. EE if need be. seal of primordium also works here sometimes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razorking
elves hate in Cg is best in cursed totem + ugin's, but really warping wail is your best bet to buy time.
Agree 100% on Warping Wail. In fact, I had cut my Tops to make room for the full playset. It's consistently overperformed for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
It does pretty much everything you could want: spot removal for 75% of the most commonly played creatures in the format, countering key spells vs combo (like Natural Order, for example), countering discard, surprise chump blocker, answer to Lili -2, quasi-Surgical for Bridge from Below. It's a veritable Swiss Army Knife.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
My first thoughts on the new situation: Obviously the ban hits us hard, not because we lose Top (Boozecube is not the only one who cut it, in my last versions i replaced it with Sylvan Library in my Midrange version too, because that worked better in that specific build), but because we lose Miracles. And it's very possible the new meta will be more hostile to us than just the old meta without Miracles would have been, most decks winning from this ban are probably not very great matchups.
So, there is a real chance this deck is dead. But that's not sure, depending on how the meta eventually turns out we might be able to adjust - but probably things will need to change, just replacing Top and moving on won't cut it, and what exactly needs to change we will see.
(I played a few games on xmage today after i didn't do that for a long time, just to get a better feeling for the metagame again, my usual testing doesn't work without any information about the metagame.)
One question everybody should ask: What cards that might see play in 12post are better now?
I think Dark Depths should probably be included in every list now. I played that already, but overall Miracles was one of the few matchups where i really didn't want it at all, now it's much better.
The same goes for Knight of the Reliquary - i don't think anybody else tried it, but it got better now, because Miracles is probably its worst matchup. In general, a creature heavy strategy could work much better.
I think my midrange build got better compared to some other more extreme ramp builds (but it still got worse overall, Miracles was still a 70%+ matchup for me). I don't have a list ready, i'm trying something with Chalice maindeck now, because that's possible with my build and i expect more fast combo and Delver decks, with Chalice maindeck i'm pretty sure this beats most of these. It's worse against Stompy decks however, but i don't thik Eldrazi will be a big part of the new meta (and Blood Moon isn't the biggest problem with 4 Mox Diamond). Anyway, i think that general idea (Mox Diamonds for early acceleration and some cheaper creatures like Knight of the Reliquary and Tireless Tracker) is something to explore if other builds don't work any more.
My first real list since the Top news is something my teammate Jeff Carpenter has been tinkering with for days as a means of destroying me at local events. The deck is completely untouched by the top changes and fights the decks being held back by top's miracle dominance magnificently. Here's his, and now my, list that I did great with locally:
// Lands
4 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [MR] Cloudpost
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 [MPR] Wasteland
1 [JGC] Karakas
1 [KLD] Inventors' Fair
3 [MM] Rishadan Port
1 [V12] Maze of Ith
2 [MR] Blinkmoth Well
4 [EXP] Ancient Tomb
// Creatures
1 [BFZ] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
3 [AER] Walking Ballista
1 [EMN] Emrakul, the Promised End
4 [UD] Metalworker
3 [WWK] Lodestone Golem
1 [KLD] Metalwork Colossus
1 [OGW] Endbringer
// Spells
4 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [EX] Sphere of Resistance
4 [U] Winter Orb
3 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [WWK] Lodestone Golem
SB: 1 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 4 [OGW] Warping Wail
SB: 4 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 2 [NPH] Dismember
SB: 3 [MMA] Faerie Macabre
Intriguing list. What is the Blinkmoth Well for? Just Winter Orb or is it offensive too?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
1) Ratchet Bomb. There's a decent chance RUG Delver comes back, so a cheap way to take out 1-2 drops gets better. It also excels at killing Chalices and isn't terrible at Blood Moon, both of which I expect to see more of.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshrac82
2) Spatial Contortion. It kills Magus of the Moon, which may see a resurgence. I run a 1-of Wastes for exactly this purpose. And it kills most Elves, even with a lord in play.
3) Warping Wail. If you're not playing UG, this gives you countermagic against most of the combo decks that will take advantage of Miracles's absence.
4) Dark Depths. I agree that this got much better without Miracles. I'll have to see what the meta becomes before moving mine main, but the option for the super-fast clock is definitely relevant if we have to fight more combo.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sad day indeed. I guess I'm too late to bitch about the ban? Nah: those pigs just wrecked the most interesting deck in the format - UG post! god damn assholes. Top was one of the most intriguing and iconic cards in the format. It represented the power level that should exist in Legacy. Miracles & slow play cannot be an excuse for this travesty.
...moving on...
Do we have to play "prison MUD post" now? Is there no hope for UG?
I'm experimenting with some really interesting variants of RuG post and GR post and UG post. fear not, once the post-miracles meta appears, a build will appear. But since this deck has ALWAYS been a counter-meta deck (zoo then stoneblade then miracles), we need for a meta to actually appear before cementing "the build" for 12post. The deck is certainly not gone though, I simply had that prison build pre-made and it took zero hits from the top banning.Quote:
Originally Posted by MechTactical
Your list definitely gave me some new ideas. I'm also considering jumping into white, as I think the combination of removal and prison effects might go a long way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
Hey all, I just built UG cloudpost about 2 weeks ago, and really enjoyed playing it. So, I'm not quite giving up on it yet following the banning of top. I am currently expecting up ticks in combo, particularly storm, elves, and belcher, plus various delver variants due to the top ban. So, I came up with a list that may be able to Combat these types of decks, and to Possibly keep the UG deck alive. Perhaps some of you master deck builders can take this idea and run with it in a direction to make it more viable. I only goldfished this deck, and have not had any viable testing. Please let me know what u think, or if you have any ideas that may help.
U/G Counterpost
4 Primeval titan
1 Ulamog, The Ceasless Hunger
1 Emrakul, The Aeons torn
3 Torrential Gearhulk
---------------------------------9 Creatures
2 Show and Tell
4 Brainstorm
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Crop Rotation
2 Pithing Needle
2 Warping Wail
4 Force of Will
3 Flusterstorm
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
2 Expedition Map
2 Moment’s Peace
------------------------------27 Spells
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Forest
--------------------------------24 Lands
Sideboard:
3 Krosan Grip
3 Surgical Extraction
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Glacial Chasm
2 Trickbind
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ugin, The Spirit Dragon
1 Moment’s Peace
The idea was to have main deck countermagic early to fight fast combo decks, or delver strategies that may pose to fast of a clock for us to beat. I would also use moments peace and chain of vapors to hopefully live long enough to get a finisher out to win the game. The torrential gearhulk is really meant to be flashed in to recast any of ur instants already in the graveyard, this includes all of ur counterspells. In the end, the basic strategy is the same, get out a big eldrazi and win, but u can now also win if your opponent doesn't have an answer for your gearhulk. It can also go toe to toe with most average tarmogoyf power/toughness. The sideboard is constructed to further help against aggro strats, as well as reanimator, or dredge decks.
Working on u/g control. Force/spell pierce MB with 2 Jace as well. 4 ponders for tops and 6-7 fetches. Flusters SB. Still crops/repeal MB for moon hate and tabby MB for aggro. New kozilek is extremely good since draw u a ton of counter magic with this build he sucked otherwise I thought in normal post. With combo about to go up in meta it's been good so far in combo decks I tested too early to tell. Only non prison route I see u/g having a chance. Show titan ramp and go. I see a ton of sneak n show hate...I see it being the top deck now. And elves about to go nuts with no miracles. If i get a deck playing well I can post...sadly as I said u/g maybe dead just a few variants out like I made. Colorless prison aka MUD post blaaaa is prob where deck headingQuote:
Originally Posted by MechTactical
Just got my candelabras 10 days ago, time to crush Miracles! I played a colorless 12-post variant mashed with Phillesh's Eldrazi Ramp list and my want to play Sundering Titan. Went 4-0, in order:
2-1 vs Enchantress
2-0 vs Lands (maindecking Ghost Quarter, Ports and Wastelands)
2-0 vs Cg 12-post
2-0 vs Bant Stoneforge
I just picked up my Show & Tells last week to try UG, so this makes me sad.Quote:
Originally Posted by MechTactical
Personally, I thing Cg is the way to go now (although I've been on it forever, so I'm biased). The playstyle has a lot of overlap with UG, insofar as it's a highly interactive control build with ample card selection. It's just more about board control instead of stack control.
I do think it's well poised, depending on where the meta goes. The large removal suite gives Cg a ton of game against all the creature decks that wanted Terminus gone. MUD is definitely better vs combo, but even Cg's Storm matchup isn't that horrible — unfavorable, yes, but still quite winnable (especially if you can take game 1).
But the biggest point in favor of moving to Cg from UG, IMO, is that you get a similar caliber of card selection. Ancient Stirrings is absurdly powerful in Cg. I've won plenty of games off mulls to 4-5 where I all I really had was a green source and multiple Ancient Stirrings. And depending on where the meta goes, Ancient Stirrings gives you consistent access to a lot of colorless sideboard tech to shore up the combo matchups.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBoozeCube
literally this. ancient stirrings pushes this deck to an absurdly consistent build.
Recently have been having the most success with this fluctuant build:
// Lands
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [MR] Cloudpost
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
5 [8E] Forest (2)
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [B] Savannah
// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 [M11] Primeval Titan
1 [BFZ] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 [OGW] Kozilek, the Great Distortion
// Spells
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
2 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
1 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 [ROE] Ancient Stirrings
4 [OGW] Warping Wail
4 [KLD] Woodweaver's Puzzleknot
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
3 [OD] Moment's Peace
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [M15] Reclamation Sage
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 [C14] Containment Priest
SB: 4 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [8E] Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 [EMA] Nature's Claim
Cards that are iffy: Koz 2.0, Containment Priest/Teeg /w GSZ.
Still unsure about the minor white splash. More testing will be required.
Cards that are optimal inclusions: Inspiring Statuary, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Aetherworks Marvel, Ensnaring Bridge > Moment's Peace.
Overall this is my favorite build post-top banning. By far my most successful in testing. Only real worry would be if Omnishow takes off again, it will require a bit of a revamp.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
Interesting. But what about the 4 Woodweaver's Puzzleknot? If Glimmerpost's lifegain isn't good enough, could Heroes' Reunion be an alternative? Or good old Obstinate Baloth, providing only 4 life, but also big beef and a nice card to troll Lilly's -2^^
puzzleknot is mostly for messing around with energy mechanics. Atm the mono green build has 3 variations. Straight ramp, energy /w puzzleknots&marvel/Dynavolt, and statuary /w tracker. They're weirdly all viable, and oddly top and miracles' removal makes all these possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Postman
When I pulled up MTGO last night to a "!" message on my deck containing banned cards, I shed a tear. Planning to try a GW build on Community Legacy League tonight of with Tops replaced with a 3x Sylvan Library and a Courser of Kruphix. I played one prelim game last night against, high tide; when I proceeded to F6 walk away and get a sandwich.
Thinking mindbreak traps are going to become a staple for our sideboard in this meta. Maybe something else but I think right out the gates everyone is going to be bringing weird combo decks.
This is my preliminary post-top U/G list. I like this list the most against a completely unknown meta. Mono green will likely edge it out once the meta is known and especially if the meta is more midrange and less combo:
// Lands
1 [LG] Karakas
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [MR] Cloudpost
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [8E] Forest (2)
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [UNH] Island
1 [V12] Glacial Chasm
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [EXP] Misty Rainforest
// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [BFZ] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 [GPX] Primeval Titan
// Spells
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
2 [EMA] Sylvan Library
4 [5E] Brainstorm
3 [CN2] Show and Tell
3 [MD1] Relic of Progenitus
3 [M10] Ponder
4 [OGW] Warping Wail
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [EMA] Nature's Claim
SB: 4 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 [AER] Walking Ballista
SB: 1 [SOI] Tireless Tracker
Major theme is Ponder/Sylvan library to fix draw issues top fixed, relic/map to smooth colored needs, needle because it is incredible, and warping wail hits the unleashed combo decks with miracle's departure (infect/elves/storm/omnisneaky). Notable combo decks that WW misses are Big Red, Belcher, Food chain, Aluren, Enchantress. Hence the focus on multi spell hate and enchantment/artifact destruction in the sb. I may go higher on the nature's claim coverage as it has been doing some major lifting in testing.
Tuscan Clay
A.K.A. Green Mud post
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Karakas
4 Glimmerpost
2 Ancient Tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
7 Forest
4 Vesuva
4 Cloudpost
3 Pithing Needle
2 Tangle Wire
4 Ancient Stirrings
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 Crop Rotation
3 Trinisphere
3 Expedition Map
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Conduit of Ruin
1 Platinum Emperion
4 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Song of the Dryads
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
3 Warping Wail
2 Surgical Extraction
YUP
69 cards main!
i probably want to cut it down but so much of it is tutor targets for crop/eye/conduit/stirrings. I could not bring my self to abandon crop rotation and stirrings. Their utility remains astounding for fighting all the combo i have seen recently. There is tons by the way and i see a lot of sneak/show/omni decks. Thoughtknot is amazing and being able to get him turn 2 with temple, tomb, candle, post and eye. I can play pretty agro with the TKS into conduit into Ulamog/emperion as my turn 2/3/4 respectively. IT IS SO AMAZING.
The tangles and trinispheres have been amazing too! turn twoing them feels soooooooooo sweet. Amazing maindeck to just show a storm player or a delver player. Tangle wire RIPS delver into little pieces.
i don't know if i want to cut down cards, i should but i want to do a ton more testing to see what deserves the cut.
The idea of running Show and Tell in this meta seems REALLLLLLLLLLYYYYY BAAAAAAAADDDDDD. The idea of main deck combo hate with an endgames that goes over control decks and being in a spot where my hate is really good against aggro too! Trinispher is best against burn where as i find tangle wire amazing against the Temur/ 4 color / true name delver lists.
So, i forsee a few options:
1 MUDDY 12 post with lockpieces, rocks and keys for acceleration and TKS next to trnisphere and challice but a 12 post end game with ulamog and friends
2 Green Post Green sun zenith with titan oracle and arbor targets and crop rotation stirrings package.
3 A hybrid between both (what i am playing and proposing as best)
4 12 post and TELL U/G post with forces and/or other counters main such as fluster storm
Final Notes:
Not sold at all on woodweaver's puzzle knot/ energy strats.
I think i need crazy combo hate in my side
I think green sun zenith post decks should main Teeg as a option in game 1
I think crop rotation for bog or krakas is super important
Krosan grip for omni show sneak style decks is super important
increased numbers of chalice and other lock pieces in the meta probably mean you need to tote around 4 k-grip
I would not be surprised in my side becomes 4 Grip and 11 combo hate cards
Winter orb main is interesting, between playing it when it is good for you and having candle it can be very good for delver/greedy combo mana bases. It may not be correct idk i have not tested.
I NEED TO TEST SO MUCH MORE. i am waiting for mtg top 8 top 8 to spit numbers for new meta
GOOD LUCK EVERYONE- ADAPT AND EVOLVE
Rock lee, those main deck relic might be perfect for this meta. I might try testing them.
I'm getting some promising results from a U/G build using new Nissa and her Oath in conjunction with Courser of Kruphix, Oracle of Mul Daya, Brainstorm, and Sylvan Library to manipulate the top of the deck. The deck has real potential but my testing time is limited so far and there's room for improvement.
Observations so far:
1) I definitely don't miss Top very much. Courser/Oracle are helpful as possible hits off a blind Nissa flip, they protect her, and they help you not make blind flips.
2) Brainstorm/Library + Nissa + Courser/Oracle is absurd.
3) Many more opening hands are keepable than I'm used to. Oath pulls a lot of weight here.
4) Playing Nissa encourages playing some number of Moment's Peace.
5) Ugin is awkward with Nissa.
6) A huge Nissa allowing for her -6 on two consecutive turns can be realistic. I beat Storm that way.
7) Dark Depths has not performed.
8) Blind-flipping with Nissa on 1 is pretty bad, even in a build with ~30 lands.
In post-top era Mindbreak Trap is a trap, at least against storm. It's dishonest to think storm players would go off blind and you can't float your hoser on top of your deck anymore. Maybe it works against aluren, food chain and such. You have Grip for those, though.
Walking ballista seems like a good fit.
Not necessarily. I used to play Mindbreaks when we had a very Storm-heavy local meta a while ago. And that was before Warping Wail gave nonblue builds access to countermagic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopo
They only have so much discard. And they often have to go off blind because you're threatening to untap with enough mana for an Eldrazi. Mix Traps up with some permanent-based hate, and it's still a strong option if ANT becomes the deck to beat again.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Scroll Rack seems like it would be decent SDT substitute. Allows you to put the dead cards back on top and draw new ones, which can be then shuffled away via fetches, crop rotations etc., so you can find new top deck cards. It also lets you hide any cards from your opponent by just putting them on the top and drawing others. Could be better than Sylvan Library? Again sorry no testing, just spit balling while at work.
Here is the build I've been goldfishing and do like it a lot. I would have to agree Nissa paired with her Oath and Oracle/courser is a very powerful tool. Oath allows to get nissa onine very easily as well as card selection. I also really like Walking Ballista in this build for board control but it doesn't play well with Nissa unless you run ponders. Problem I feel is that Abrupt Decay will chew this deck up badly. Courser feels beefier because of his defense but then is in decay range. Sideboard is odd. The deck fairs horrible against Omni decks, Blood moon isn't much of an issue with Oath running. Sylvan Library is interesting, might bring down to 2. Expedition Maps helps for shuffling primarily during my tests. Almost would want to run Ponder instead or Ancient Stirrings. Also thought about putting TKS instead of Maps to give Nissa better coverage.
Lands
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Cavern of Souls
4x Cloudpost
1x Eye of Ugin
2x Forest
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Island
1x Karakas
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Glimmerpost
1x Thespian's Stage
4x Tropical Island
1x Vesuva
Spells
4x Brainstorm
2x Candelabra of Tawnos
1x Courser of Kruphix
3x Crop Rotation
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1x Emrakul, the Promised End
3x Expedition Map -- Flexible slot. Thought-Knot Seer; Ponder; Ancient Stirrings seems to fit here.
3x Nissa, Steward of Elements
3x Oath of Nissa
1x Oracle of Mul Daya
2x Pithing Needle
3x Primeval Titan
3x Sylvan Library
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
3x Walking Ballista
Sideboard
2x Engineered Explosives
4x Krosan Grip
3x Show and Tell
3x Surgical Extraction
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2x Trinisphere
I'm pretty sure Abrupt Decay will go down in numbers. From the few new lists i have seen so far (5-0 lists on MTGO), most combo decks that used to run a playset in the board like Storm have completely cut them. And even in most fair BGx decks i don't see a full playset any more. It's not going completely away, but it just got much worse without Counterbalance in the format.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skriger
Especially seeing that combo decks move away from that option makes me think hateful permanents could be the best option to attack combo decks right now. My idea for a GSZ based build is to play Gaddock Teeg maindeck as a bullet to instawin game 1 against Storm and similar decks. I'm already doing that, and compared between a deck with Teeg maindeck and no other useful cards against Storm in the maindeck (no Crop Rotation, no Warping Wail, no discard) and a deck without Teeg and ~6 useful cards against Storm, the deck with Teeg has probably ~40% winrate game 1 while the other one has probably ~25% winrate game 1. (But keep in mind, i'm playing a lot of early acceleration, so 3 mana for a GSZ->Teeg on turn 2 is very often possible.)
About Sylvan Library: I tested more with it before the top ban. I liked it better than Top for my build anyway, because i am lower to the ground and can more often use it to draw extracards. But i would probably not play more than 2: Unlike Top, multiple Libraries are an issue - the first Library is great, but any other one in hand is usually a dead card. Rather play other card advantage options like Courser or Tracker (both get better with less Abrupt Decays in the format). And Nissa is certainly an option too, i still want to test her in my build since i'm splashing blue anyway.
About Scroll Rack: Tried that too, just because i wanted to understand why nobody would consider it. Sometimes it's great and better than any other option. However, there are too many situations where you really need to dig for action, and it doesn't help because you don't have enough cards in hand (very common problem later in the game against BGx decks with discard). I don't think Scroll Rack is playable for us.
Some other GSZ-bullets i'm trying:
- Spike Weaver: I like him a lot more than Dawn Strider as an option to have a permanent that fogs. In the short time i tested Dawnstrider, it hasn't won me any game. Spike Weaver on the other hand was more than once the one card that made the difference, getting 3 extra turns to set up is often huge. In the current Metagame Eldrazi is mostly gone (it's great against them), but Spike Weaver is great against Elves too - you will often get the time to set it up, they can't kill it and it gives you the time to combo yourself. And it's situationally useful against every fair deck, in my opinion a valid maindeck option.
- Atraxa: The color requirements are problematic, i'll admit that - even in my deck with Mox Diamonds she can get stuck in hand. But even before the ban i wanted to play her, and she was horrible against Miracles. Usually you GSZ for her anyway. Atraxa is insane against Delver, still very useful against non-white fair decks and a relevant finisher against most combo decks. Also, her "flavor text" Proliferate is a nice combo with Spike Weaver, and it's useful with Walking Ballista too (and if i tried Nissa, that would be another card to use the Proliferate).
- Vizier of the Menagerie: Not much data yet, but i think in a very creature heavy build he can be useful. Helps with the casting costs in my build (since i'm now 4-color with Atraxa) and also against Blood Moon. (I had one testmatch against BigRed with it in the deck, and it won both games against an early Blood Moon without any pressure because i could cast all my creatures, even though i never removed the Blood Moon.)
Also: In a GW build with Walking Ballista and creatures like Knight of the Reliquary and Tireless Tracker, there is another relevant option to search for creatures with Recruiter of the Guard. That can also fetch some hate bears. Could be an option to play 1-2 of them - i'm not convinced yet, but it doesn't seem horrible at least.
Not sure if i can fit all of this into the same build (i'm trying right now, but i might need to cut some stuff for interaction).
Are you playing Cascading Cataracts?Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshrac82
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk