Recycle can get cut it seems. Just not that nessecary and can be clunky. Glad you like Fetters. About 61 cards, just ignore the thread and play 60, it is strictly better.
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Recycle can get cut it seems. Just not that nessecary and can be clunky. Glad you like Fetters. About 61 cards, just ignore the thread and play 60, it is strictly better.
As a rule of thumb I totally agree with you. Statistically spoken it is of course possible to get in a spot where e.g. 21 lands are not enough and 22 are too much (on a very high sample size). Then it could be right to add the 61 card.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
The I don't want to cut a card, I'll stay with 61 - move is of course just wrong most of the times.
May I suggest to have a try with Knight of the reliquary in place of Batterskull?Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
From my point of view:
+ zenithable
+ some lands to tutor (Karakas, Phy Tower. May add a side Bojuka)
+ great interact with both Gitrog and Tireless
- can be decayed
My 2 cents.
I wish you a great and prolific GP Colombus ! :)
No, if that's your reasoning 22/60 is better every time. The main reason for 61 has to do with the size of a GSZ toolbox. The extra value a card like Qasali Pridemage brings, outweighs the disadvantage of 61 cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by emuhell
Last night was Leg Day at my local store. Event entry is only $5 so I have been using this as an opportunity to get in a few rounds of testing with Pod Fit.
I took the following list to a 2-1-drop finish last night.
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Aven Mindscensor
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Liliana, Heretical Healer
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Restoration Angel
1 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Shriekmaw
3 Birthing Pod
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Diabolic Intent
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant
4 Heath
2 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
sb::
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Containment Priest
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Pithing Needle
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Abrupt Decay
Round 1 (Dredge) 2-1
I lost Game 1 quickly to a turn 2 12 Zombies and Flamekin Zealot. Games 2 and 3 I was able to lock my opponent out with Gaddock Teeg with Thoughtseize, Containment Priest and Surgical Extraction came in from the SB. Game 2 and 3 had amazing opening hands with relevant SB cards
Round 2 (Lands) 1-2
Merit Lage made an early apeparance in games 1 and 3. Game 2 my opponent played the mana denial game and didn't get a Loam dredge going. SB games were -3 Birthing Pod +1 Needle +2 Surgical
Round 3 (Combo Elves) 2-1
Not much to say here. He hoofed me early game 1. Games 2-3 were long but each ended with a Jitte equipped to Tireless Tracker. I used Ethersworn Cononist and Gaddock Teeg to limit his fun.
Drop
I was pleased with the deck performance and had a ton of fun.
I would like a little more game against the Stage - Lage Combo. Pithing needle feels like it can help. Maybe a second needle in the SB would help. Thoughts?
I'm not sure you can really fix the Lands matchup. Maybe more Swords/Path assuming you're on white. Leyline of the Void and Surgical are also pretty good.
Has anyone ever tried a Chrome Mox in the main?
Anyone here ever try a Natural Order build? I was thinking about putting something together in BUG I think (brainstorm your green fat back in) with Prog and maybe Worldspine as my targets.
Something like
My thinking is a T2 Progenitus is pretty good. I don't think we can Hoof like Elves, but maybe that's worth trying since it only takes a couple guys to get huge damage. Anyway, curious if someone has considered this as a way to abuse our early mana this way. I think Worldspine seems promising as well since non-white decks are stuck taking 15 next turn.Quote:
3-4 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent (green for NO, blue for FoW)
4 Goyf? (hold early ground)
0-2 Clique (could use it to recycle fats)
1 Progenitus
0-1 Worldspine Wurm/Ruric Thar, etc.
4 Decay
4 BS
4 Therapy
3-4 Natural Order
0-2 Crop Rotation
0-4 Force (pretty castable)
0-2 Jace
21 lands (1 Tower, maybe 1 stronghold)
Ruric Thar would be a nice card, but unfortunately Karakas has some other opinion on him.
Worldspine and Progenitus, they are not Griselbrand and Emrakul unfortunately. Even getting them into play doesn't mean you win the game automatically. Against Miracles, Worldspine is always exiled and Prog probably gets Terminus'ed.
And against Aggro or Tempo decks the problem is that you still need to attack twice or sometimes even three times with them to win. Getting Order on turn 2 or 3 is pretty unrealistic so usually it will be turn 4 or 5 and it will be your one big guy against their entire team and that is often not enough.
I don't disagree with your points completely; but I don't see how they are any different than things you'd say against running nic fit in general.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
1 & 2. This is literally the case with every other creature in the game. How is this a different argument than "Grave Titan/Primetime/etc" just get Terminus'd/aren't Emrakul?
3. How is this different than literally every other Nic Fit iteration? The only cards we can compare to are Hoof (which Nic Fit doesn't run) and Nic fit fatties, which are harder to cast and slower to win and easier to kill.
4. Again, how is this any different than casting Rhinos, GSZ-for-6/7, or Primetimes? DRS gets you there T3, as does Tower, as does Explorer, as does crop-rotation. This isn't any different than Nic Fit but "minus some 3-drops and 6 drops, add some NO and fat"
If your claim is that having a card that puts a harder to kill, faster win con, easier to cast card on the field is not good enough; i don't think it's the sacrifice clause that is the problem; wouldn't it be the deck?
Playing Order comes at a cost. First you put dead cards into your deck and risk drawing them. Second you risk drawing Natural Order without Sac Outlets. You will start to get some really terrible hands that simply lose because you draw the wrong halfs of the combo. Third you risk 2 for 1ing yourself in case of removal or a FoW. If Titan / Witness / Tracker get removed you 2 for 1 the opponent, if your Order target gets killed the opponent 2 for 1s you.
These are pretty big disadvantages so the return should be much bigger than what Prog / Worldspine actually are. If Order could search Emrakul or Grisl it would be worth it. But the Green options are not gamebreaking enough to warrant the huge investment.
When we were looking into NO previously, one of the ideas we considered Elderscale Wurm as a target that helps against aggro decks.
I do think that Natural Order needs Sylvan Safekeeper to protect the Worldspine / Elderscale, and Arbor as a fetchable NO fodder.
This isn't a NO deck. We can't take a shell like rug order, gut a few cards and put vet and friends in like it better. We want a way to abuse the mana advantage. Rector build makes sense because plan b is hard cast the bomb enchantments. Legacy is wide, let's not narrow our scope but instead broaden our horizons. If rhino isn't where we want to be and pod is not to your liking, where does that leave us?
As a former Elves! pilot I'm very sure I do not want NO in my Nic Fit list. Resolving it is a hard thing to do and there's plenty of other stuff you want to be doing already.
Also if we want to play a 4-mana Sorcery that wins us the game if it resolves, it's probably a better bet to just play Scapeshift.
Where are we on that semi-aggressive jund fit build?
Not sure who else will be there but our very own Dominic Pain will be there. Shout out to Basedtopic! Do well with rhinos!
I feel like the problem with the Jund Aggro lists is that the payoff just isn't as good.
BUG lists get Baleful Strix and Brainstorm and counterspells.
Abzan gets Swords / Path, Sigarda and Stoneforge.
Scapeshift gets Scapeshift.
Control Jund gets Punishing Fire and Liliana.
What does aggressive Jund get to play that the others don't do better?
- Huntmaster is not a top tier card currently.
- Bloodbraid is awful in our deck.
- There aren't that many other actually good aggressive red options that make use of our access to mana.
IMO if we want to be more aggro we want to go harder on the burn plan and run Fireblasts or something.
Now if they printed some 3-4 mana RG creature with haste and a card advantage effect (even just like a 3/4 haste for 4 that draws us a card or something vanilla like that) then the deck would be significantly more relevant.
Arrived in Columbus. Eating now...will be doing dealering and artisting tonight, but not playing in any of the sides. I will see all of you tomorrow most likely - I'll do my best to find as many of you as I can :)
While I agree with your other threat assessment (RIP Huntmaster, you used to be so great and now you're so medium), Xenagos the Reveler and especially Stormbreath Dragon are both very powerful magic cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
Stormbreath is nice, but not Zenithable like Sigarda which puts the brakes on any attempt to build around him.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrIggins
I'd say Xenagos was interesting (mainly for against Miracles) but Nahiri's popularity makes him a lot less relevant than he maybe was previously.
I'm at GP Columbus here jamming some Rhinos in Legacy!!! Hopefully I'll find some of y'all tomorrow! For reference, here's the list I'll be playing tomorrow, barring anymore last minute changes.
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Path to Exile
4 Siege Rhino
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Painful Truths
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Sylvan Library
61 Main
SIDEBOARD
2 Price of Progress
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Pithing Needle
1 To The Slaughter
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Slaughter Games
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize
15 Side
Wasn't able to win any buys today but I only played Fit in one GPT, I was too excited to play Spanish Inquisition with the LED's i finally got.
Random question I've got. I finally decided to pick up Mystics alongside Jitte which gives me the complete Stoneforge package (already have Batterskull and all swords). Does a SFM build even need Rhinos? What if instead of Rhinos it included more creatures which generate CA like Tireless Trackers. Would that be a reasonable thing to do?
Edit: I should give a list.
Land 22
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
Creatures 18
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Dark Confidant
3 Tireless Tracker
1 Courser of Kruphix
Artifact 7
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Sensei's Divining Top
Spells 12
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Path to Exile
1 Vindicate
Enchantment 2
2 Pernicious Deed
I'd play -2 Confidant +1 Sigarda +1 GSZ. Looks great though. Tracker, Top, Courser is ridiculous once assembled. Even if it's answered, the card advantage is off the hook
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Well, we're coming to the conclusion Rhino isn't good enough anymore. Batterskull does allow you to go bigger than Rhino, and what's ever bad about CA? Especially if that CA can become bigger than Rhino when left unanswered for too long.
One little nitpick though - your manabase isn't 22 lands, it's 21. Dryad Arbor should be considered a creature. It simply doesn't behave as the other 21 do.
Keep that in mind whenever you find it in your opening hand. Don't accidentally manascrew yourself by misjudging its role.
I have been running a single anguished unmaking in the sb to help against some problematic permanents like pw and marit lage (in total: 1 pulse main // 1 deluge 1 unmaking sb)..seeing mr pain's list I wonder if to the slaughter could be a straight up better card for that use: easier on the mana (lands pilots gonna be port W sources all day), deals with tnn, deals with lage and jace, no life loss (relevant part in the non rhino list I am testing atm) and deals with manlands..the advantages seem good and delirium (not counting on having it very often) is a nice plus, CA effect. The downside is that it doesn't deal with artifacts and enchantments, but decay is a 4 of for that purpose..do I really need to hit artifacts? I don't think to be honest
Confidant works well, particularly when you have enough stuff to also draw removal. His interaction with Top is about equal to Coursers, but he has a stronger effect without Top at the expense of being lower mana and a weaker body.Quote:
Originally Posted by TTX
I'm aware of it's role, there's a lot of tricks involved with it. I do tend to think of it as more of a land than a creature though because I often GSZ for it (probably more than I should). GSZ+Arbor lets you cheat the land count and get away with 21-22 lands. Here I'm a little more interested in it being a creature which is why I went with a Misty Rainforest as fetch #9 but it's still very much both.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Actually, at our Thursday night Legacy event I had some Dryad Arbor tricks going on. Was looping Arbor alongside Courser and Volrath's to chump block forever. That interaction has come up far more often than I thought it would. At one point I even played a green fetch with nothing to search and then Volrath's Arbor just so I could fetch for it and get in a shuffle.
Anyways, I consider Arbor to be a land specifically because I arbor ramp whenever I have 2 or fewer lands and no way to kill an Explorer... a situation that comes up a lot. Using Arbor as a land gives you the early game consistency of a 26 land deck and the lategame consistency of a 21 land deck.
@Brael, I'm not sure how much you pay attention to the thread, but if you search for SFM lists you'd find the majority of them haven't been running Rhino for months. If they do only as their four drop silver bullet slot, not a game plan. I personally prefer Meren or Thrun in that slot but if TNN and pyromancer tokens become very popular again then a rhino could come back.
It seems to me you're really asking if we need to play 4 drops at all. Which is a more interesting question. I currently think so because Vet is still our main gameplan, with SFM just supplementing it. You're also runing considerably less interaction than would make me comfortable. But it's you list and not mine :P
That dryad abor play you speak of makes it a llanowar elf not a land. If it dies to one mana removal, it's a mana dork not a land.
Edit: From your list I would cut 1 Scooze (haven't needed him in a long time) 1 SFM (4 is too many, she's not amazing against all of the format, and we don't mind if we draw her late) 1 courser (still think the card is bad and tracker should just replace it for anyone that thought it was good) 1 Top
Add 2 TS (you have low interaction as it is, and you're relying on more fragile creatures so you want to take their removal) and 1 decay/path/stp and the last Gsun.
You can also consider cutting deed (bad with clue tokens and so many low drops..) and change it for deluge or more pin point removal.. also going big maverick and switching the DRS/Vet numbers around. That said, you aren't really big maverick because you do don't have anything that costs more than 3...
I pay attention to it, but I don't memorize SFM lists, until I ordered SFM's last week I didn't pay much attention to something I could only play on xmage. But with white clearly being the best third color still and Rhino's not cutting it, I figured I should look at SFM.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jain_Mor
Rhino is the best 4 drop, and it's not cutting it. That says to me that you either go bigger, or go smaller.Quote:
It seems to me you're really asking if we need to play 4 drops at all. Which is a more interesting question. I currently think so because Vet is still our main gameplan, with SFM just supplementing it. You're also runing considerably less interaction than would make me comfortable. But it's you list and not mine :P
It's both, it's closest to a CIPT land, or perhaps a Mutavault with card types rather than creature types.Quote:
That dryad abor play you speak of makes it a llanowar elf not a land. If it dies to one mana removal, it's a mana dork not a land.
I'm not at all opposed to adding more interaction, though I don't think I'm that low on it, I have 12 cards that interact. Thoughtseize sounds good but I disagree with those cuts. I suppose I just need to play SFM and see what I do and don't like.Quote:
Edit: From your list I would cut 1 Scooze (haven't needed him in a long time) 1 SFM (4 is too many, she's not amazing against all of the format, and we don't mind if we draw her late) 1 courser (still think the card is bad and tracker should just replace it for anyone that thought it was good) 1 Top
I've been playing Tracker for I think 2 months now and the deed/clue token interaction has never come up. Low drops on the other hand have. Maybe I'll switch over to Toxic Deluge.Quote:
You can also consider cutting deed (bad with clue tokens and so many low drops..) and change it for deluge or more pin point removal.. also going big maverick and switching the DRS/Vet numbers around. That said, you aren't really big maverick because you do don't have anything that costs more than 3...
-------------------------
Edit: Guess I should explain my thought process. The way I see it there's basically packages you can put together in the deck and each uses a similar number of slots. You have the stompy package which is rhinos, sigarda, and other big things. You have the SFM package, you have the CA package, you have the PW package, and so on. There seems to be room in the deck to include two of them. So you can run SFM+PW or SFM+CA, or CA+Stompy.
If you go with SFM it seems to me that you want something that provides a steady stream of creatures to go alongside it. My above list is trying all the CA stuff but I could see merit to something like PW's as well
Currently I am on the sfm build as well and I try to combine as much as possible but I don't have time to test it in detail. It felt quite well but the deed+sfm issue bothers me as well.
My current list.
2 bayou
2 savannah
1 scrubland
1 phyrexian tower
4 windswept heath
4 verdant catacomb
3 forest
2 plains
2 swamp
4 veteran explorer
3 stoneforge mystic
2 siege rhino
1 tireless tracker
1 eternal witness
1 scavenging ooze
1 deathrite shaman
1 sakura-tribe elder
1 sigarda, host of herons
4 Cabal therapy
3 green sun's zenith
3 path to exile
3 abrupt decay
3 pernicious deed
3 sensei's divining top
1 painful truths
1 vindicate or 1 beast within
1 batterskull
1 umezawa's jitte
1 garruk relentless
1 elspeth, Knight-errant
Sideboard:
2 surgical extraction
2 pithing needle
1 tsunami
1 qasali pridemage
1 containment priest
1 ethersworn canonist
1 gaddock teeg
2 thoughtseize
1 toxic deluge
1 golgari charm
1 sorin, grim nemesis
1 krosan grip
7-2 and on to day 2 in decent shape. Report to follow after, obviously.
6-3 here. Report when I get home on Monday
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I read "insert combat walker" :wink:.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
@Arianrhod/jbone - Nice job, go team!
4-5 here :rolleyes:
Lost to two storm players, elves, and sneak/show. Too many missplays on my part, im a bit annoyed with myself. Gave a DnT player the win after going to time. Going to modify the list a tad for Sundays super series. Adding big Elspeth, swords instead of paths, 2 deed/1 deluge main with 2 golgari charms side. Still working on learning to mulligan.
I was going to say: without 4 rhino path seems suboptimal..it has been that way during testing..so we get to play stp ourselves, and at that point the 4th rhino has to go as well imo. The bolt attached to him isn't good anymore when they gain 5 life each goyf
E: @arian I am testing the core of your last list, with modifications coming from my previous rhino list.. I am liking the deck but I have to play it more to decide.
Don't forget the report though :wink:.Quote:
Originally Posted by square_two
Hit 3 combo decks in a row and died as soon as I hit day 2. Jbone was in a bit longer but just died to miracles.
I have a random (and probably bad) thought on Stoneforge Mystic. Has any thought ever been given to a singleton Paradise Mantle which could be used to turn SFM into a ramp card?
To answer your question - at the cost of what? You want to go to 61 cards (which should be a resounding no) or do you want to cut something (and if so, what)?Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
The first thought for a cut would be Sakura Tribe Elder, it's a similar slot in that case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Also, who was it that got this posted? Apparently it was near the top tables.
https://twitter.com/Chosler88/status/741782178057588736
Read through the comments. It's hilarious.
@STE - I'm not so sure. Mantle is a poor chump blocker.
I got some testing done yesterday, finally got to play Tracker. That thing is insane! It's a late game card more than anything else but boy it can put you so far ahead of your opponent so quickly. I might replace my Painful Truths for 2 more Trackers. 1 Tracker is powerful enough as it is. Having multiple out? OMFG!
Very true, it's just a random thought I had to add a better toolbox to the Mystic, it's very possible it doesn't need that though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
On the subject of Tireless Tracker, it's been pretty good for me, I dropped Painful Truths entirely in favor of Trackers. I don't understand how people get by with just 1 honestly, I'm up to 2-3 now, and could even see it as a 4 of. It's very strong, the biggest strike against it is that it's a 3 drop and we have no problem in filling up the 3 slot on our curve.