[DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)

Sounds very reasonable. Did you test against "yourself" or just against other players. Maybe your skill makes a difference, but I haven't tested your list against Canadian so no actual data to prove that your claim is wrong. Anyway I would see it very close and skill/draw being a lot more relevant than anything else.

I tried bug variants (with/without stifle) but never a configuration like this. Keep us posted about your results and tunes. I'll try it out some time.
bUrg justifies 3 deathrites, so maybe that makes sense for you as well if you then cut 1 random spell like probe you could fit in 2 goyfs. I never liked ooze in tempo... not a bit. Way to mana intensive and random.

Btw. Having 0 Thoughtseize feels wrong as well.

I tested against a reasonably skilled RUG opponent. He isn't an outstanding RUG player but he understands the basics and makes little missplays from time to time. We always try to rectify the plays and make them into the right play, therefore we don't play "with" the missplays. A lot of tempo matchups come down to who wins the die roll, and I usually don't take back the play until I lose. Considering I won the vast majority of our matches, the matchup is probably better than I anticipate because I was mostly playing with a handicap.

I played bUrg with 3 and 4 DRS and the sad truth is that the manabase simply cannot support 2 DRS at once. BUG, however, surely can and has been doing so quite successfully. Just like Mongoose and Delver, if I can support them in multiples, I will play the full set.

As far as including Goyf goes, I certainly don't want to lose any of my current 12 threats for him so it is a matter of trimming flex slots. Probe and Pierce are currently cards that I wish I could incorporate a 3rd copy of. Pierce is an excellent complement to the hard removal suite while Probe smooths the deck out, gives crucial information, and counts towards threshold for Mongoose and Goyf size as additional Sorcery. I like the 2 Dismember 4 Decay removal suite because it supports Mongoose and DRS as threats in order to close a game down. Having 6 hard removal spells while playing with 0 Goyf is comparable to playing a Geist deck with Bolts and StP. Because I don't have to overpower my opponent's threats, I simply have to clear the way for my own. So far, I have been actively looking for scenarios where I wish I had a pair of Goyfs in my deck to dig for. The truth is that Goyf is vanilla and is rarely a direct solution. As the deck stands now, if I wanted to fit in a pair of Goyfs it would be as additional threats and would probably replace Stifles. I would do the following changes to accommodate your concerns: -4 Stifle for +2 Goyf, +1 Pierce, and +1 Probe.

Well if you do that you are essentially a worse version of the old tap-out TA without discard and stalker but with goose and pierce. Stifle is the whole point...You call gitaxian a flex slots but you would rather cut stifle than touch them? ;-)

I like your removal...if i would try something it would be -1decay +1disfigure.

since you are trying out new stuff I would not be 'dogmatic' about the creature suite. There are other reasons why 4 deathrite in a stifle deck are not needed.

if i get the time ill test your list with the disfigure instead of decay and
-2 probe
-1 deathrite
+2 goyf
+ 1pierce

and probably a different board. can you explain why thoughtseize did not make it?

Read pages 148-150ish, I wrote a lot on Thoughtseize, Stifle, Probe, Spell Pierce, and how BUG can compete with RUG as a reactive tempo deck.

Basically, I don't think Mongoose and discard belong in the same deck. If you choose to rip your opponent's hand apart, you have to play the bigger threats because you don't get to negate your opponent's plays like reactive tempo does, but to weaken your opponent's initial game plan and responses to your own. To put this in context, Thoughtseizing one of your opponent's threats doesn't mean he won't play something bigger than your Mongoose. This sort of dis-synergy is comparable to Hymning away 2 removal spells when your only threat is a Mongoose. If your threats are bigger than your opponent's threats, discard handles removal. If your opponent's game plan doesn't involve interacting with your creatures, discard handles their strategy.

How is the Shardless BUG matchup? I'm guessing it's not very good given that there are a lot of shared cards and they have more 2 for 1s and we aren't significantly faster.

Shardless BUG is difficult to beat with anything really. Given the right combination of cards, they are a very difficult fair deck to beat. Lists heavy in Baleful Strix and Liliana will be difficult for any tempo deck to beat while lists with Jaces and FoW are easier to take down.

However, it isn't a bad matchup by any means. Stifle goes a long way vs. Suspended visions, cascade triggers, and Planeswalker activations. Their mana base is also easy to disrupt as you can usually cut them off a color with Wastes and Stifles. Nimble Mongoose is very difficult to handle for them if they cannot block him with a Goyf or Strix. Our Decays handle their biggest threats while theirs cannot handle ours (Mongoose). We have a bit more digging power to find Sylvan Library or LftL, which is the equivalent of a resolved AV. My advice is to keep Hymn in mind, and kill DRS, Goyf, and Strix on sight.

Let's face it though, DRS, Goyf, Strix, and AD are all very good cards against tempo strategies, it's a lot to deal with.

Personally, I have played against Shardless BUG twice preboard and took 1 game on the play. I have also played 5 games post-board and took 4 games out of 5. The lists I played against didn't have Liliana and probably didn't play 4 Strix (2-3 copies I think).

My boarding vs. Shardless BUG

-4 FoW/Daze (Play/Draw)
-2 Spell Pierce
+2 Submerge
+2 Disfigure
+1 LftL
+1 Sylvan Library

Played at a small local weekly with an irregularly low turnout. We were 7 so there were only 3 rounds. There were only the core players present, the seen is dying slowly (everyone is getting old and nobody picks up this expensive format). Anyway, here's how it went:

2-1 vs. Dredge

I lost the die roll, lost G1 horribly, Took G2 with 2 Surgical in my opener, took G3 because my opponent mulliganed to 2...
SB: -4 Mongoose, -4 Decay, +2 Envelop, +2 Flusterstorm, +2 Surgical, +2 Disfigure

2-0 vs. BW Pox

I lost the die roll, won G1 countering everything, and won G2 doing the same.
SB: -2 FoW/Daze, -2 Dismember, +2 Envelop, +1 Sylvan, +1 LftL

1-2 vs. GB Pox

I lost the die roll, won G1 countering everything, lost G2 to The Abyss followed by Damnation on the lethal turn, and lost G3 to LftL + Waste as I countered LftL 3 times before finding threats that eventually got cleaned up by Smallpox and Liliana.
SB: -4 FoW/Daze, -2 Dismember, +2 Surgical, +2 Envelop, +1 Sylvan, +1 LftL

I used the following list:


Creatures (14)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Tarmogoyf

Spells (28)
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
2 Dismember
4 Abrupt Decay

Lands (18)
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea

Sideboard (15)
2 Submerge
2 Envelop
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library

So what's the better build now? Stifle or no stifles?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cheerios

So what's the better build now? Stifle or no stifles?

---

I think you have to run Stifles in a tempo deck. Discard doesn't really belong in tempo (except perhaps from the SB against combo). You want to end the game with them having a full grip of cards that they either can't play or are afraid to play into your Dazes. I've been toying with a BUG Delver deck that is very similar to Qweerios's list except I run Goyf and Tombstalker over Goose, and I squeezed in Sinkholes to further disrupt their mana.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dzra

I think you have to run Stifles in a tempo deck. Discard doesn't really belong in tempo (except perhaps from the SB against combo). You want to end the game with them having a full grip of cards that they either can't play or are afraid to play into your Dazes. I've been toying with a BUG Delver deck that is very similar to Qweerios's list except I run Goyf and Tombstalker over Goose, and I squeezed in Sinkholes to further disrupt their mana.

---

Would you mind sharing that list (with sideboard)? I'm trying to build the deck and am currently torn between stifle vs stifleless builds. I see the benefits of running stifle since I was primarily playing Canadian for the past few years; however, I can't see the how I can fit the stifles without dropping the hymns. Seems like they're mutually exclusive now. Reducing the creature count might be a possibility but we might risk dying to Swords to Plowshares.dec.

Also, is running Jitte a bad idea now?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cheerios

Would you mind sharing that list (with sideboard)? I'm trying to build the deck and am currently torn between stifle vs stifleless builds. I see the benefits of running stifle since I was primarily playing Canadian for the past few years; however, I can't see the how I can fit the stifles without dropping the hymns. Seems like they're mutually exclusive now. Reducing the creature count might be a possibility but we might risk dying to Swords to Plowshares.dec.

Also, is running Jitte a bad idea now?

---

Why would you want to play Stifle and Hymn together? Committing to Hymn requires you to have BB mana available by T2. For that you have to get your curve up to support regular 2 CMC cards like 4 Goyf, 4 AD, and 2-3 Stalkers. You need more creatures to fight through removal, and more lands to support your cards. I don't think you should look for a middle ground between Stifle and Hymn, rather, you should go big on Hymn or big on Stifle.

Jitte is always a good SB card in TA.

Also, you won't run out of threats vs. StP if you play Mongoose.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Qweerios

Why would you want to play Stifle and Hymn together? Committing to Hymn requires you to have BB mana available by T2. For that you have to get your curve up to support regular 2 CMC cards like 4 Goyf, 4 AD, and 2-3 Stalkers. You need more creatures to fight through removal, and more lands to support your cards. I don't think you should look for a middle ground between Stifle and Hymn, rather, you should go big on Hymn or big on Stifle.

Jitte is always a good SB card in TA.

Also, you won't run out of threats vs. StP if you play Mongoose.

---

Yup. I'm currently on the traditional build (2 Stalkers).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cheerios

Would you mind sharing that list (with sideboard)?

---

This is still just in the sketches department, but it'll likely get tested out this weekend or next. I'm unsure of several of the numbers, as I've indicated. Deathrite should make it much more possible than previous Team America builds to cast a t2 Sinkhole while leaving Stifle/Pierce up. The reach of Tombstalker is nice, but likely would mean I'd have to cut back on a Goyf or two. Despite how nice it'd be to have a threat base consisting entirely of 1cmc creatures, I really don't think Mongoose is strong enough to cut it in a meta full of Goyfs and Deathrites.

//Land 18-19
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3-4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1-2 Bayou

//Creatures 12-14
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2-4 Tarmogoyf
0-2 Tombstalker

//Other Spells 28-30
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
0-3 Spell Pierce
3-4 Sinkhole
4 Stifle
4 Abrupt Decay

The sideboard is fairly standard with what people have been coming up with. I wouldn't play Swan Song over Envelop due to Delver. Possibly there is a place for Massacre or the 4th Sinkhole if I end up going with 3 MD. Possibly the Crypts should be something else, but I love the old border Time Shifted foils that I have. q_q

//Sideboard 15
SB: 2 Disfigure
SB: 2 Envelop
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Submerge
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dzra

This is still just in the sketches department, but it'll likely get tested out this weekend or next. I'm unsure of several of the numbers, as I've indicated. Deathrite should make it much more possible than previous Team America builds to cast a t2 Sinkhole while leaving Stifle/Pierce up. The reach of Tombstalker is nice, but likely would mean I'd have to cut back on a Goyf or two. Despite how nice it'd be to have a threat base consisting entirely of 1cmc creatures, I really don't think Mongoose is strong enough to cut it in a meta full of Goyfs and Deathrites.

//Land 18-19
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3-4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1-2 Bayou

//Creatures 12-14
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2-4 Tarmogoyf
0-2 Tombstalker

//Other Spells 28-30
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
0-3 Spell Pierce
3-4 Sinkhole
4 Stifle
4 Abrupt Decay

The sideboard is fairly standard with what people have been coming up with. I wouldn't play Swan Song over Envelop due to Delver. Possibly there is a place for Massacre or the 4th Sinkhole if I end up going with 3 MD. Possibly the Crypts should be something else, but I love the old border Time Shifted foils that I have. q_q

//Sideboard 15
SB: 2 Disfigure
SB: 2 Envelop
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Submerge
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique

---

Looks like a throwback list with the stifles and sinkholes! How are they in testing? I think Mongoose is a meta call. Mongoose really shines if you're expecting lots of UWx decks. The default creature configuration looks better if you're expecting Jund, Canadian and Maverick.

Went on a break from this thread for 3 months. Came back and the same discussion on Stifle vs no Stifle. Doesn't it get old?

Qweerios came up with a new idea of how to abuse max. tempo with stifle and deathrite like burg but sacrificing Red for a stable manbase. This is worth trying out and discussing. Since People are mixing up stifle with discard builds it goes back to former stifle discussions.

Testing against Shardless BUG didn't go particularly well. Even with Stifle, Sinkhole, and Deathrites of my own, their Deathrites still wreck havoc on trying to tempo them. Perhaps the BURG builds actually are the better way to go since Red gives them a few more ways to kill opposing Deathrites early.

Had my first tourney (50 players) with TA and ended it with a 4-2 record. Both loses reached game 3's. Seems like the deck has a hard time fighting Lilianna and creatures that can't be decayed nor dismembered. Has Sower of Temptation been tried before? The deck can produce the mana for casting it. Might also try Diabolic Edict as well.

About Hymn or no hymn: Anything can be argued, but hymn gives more free wins than any other card in the deck. And if you play a bit the deck, you notice that the win % increases quite a lot when you cast an hymn. I don't really care which card I discard, I just want to unstabilize my oponent until I kill him. I prefere to discard two decent cards against combo instead of using a thoughtseize, discard one and die because you really didn't do anything. A thoughtseize won't win a control deck or a combo deck, a hymn will.

I think the mentality when playing this deck is to kill as fast as possible while disrupting the opponent. Which means that you need to tap yourself to cast creatures and control less. I tend to mulligan hands without delver or shaman for instance. If you want to control more...just play shardless BUG or RUG.
This can be applied to stifle and pierce MD (specially stifle): Sure they are good, but keeping mana open doesn't really fit the plan of dropping threats and unstabilizing the opponent with wasteland, removal and discard.

Extra: 4 disfigure in the SB have been amazing for me. Delvers, shamans, confidants, pyromancers...Maybe it's overkill, but it makes things much better against any of those decks. I saw two of them in the MD of a list, and I'm considering it instead of the singleton Clique + Dismember.
Something else I considered is 2 ghost quarter in the SB against bug, shardless control and rug. But I'm not sure if it's 100% worth the two slots.

Re: Disfigure: Has everyone forgotten about Darkblast? Sure it doesn't kill Shaman or flipped Delver without a draw step or some other help, but it does kill Pyromancer, Bob, most of DnT, all the elves (well, most of them), etc and it's reusable, contrary to Disfigure. I like Disfigure as much as the next guy, but Darkblast deserves some love too.