Web is a good sideboard card for that matchup. I also bring it in vs death and taxes and infect.Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
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Web is a good sideboard card for that matchup. I also bring it in vs death and taxes and infect.Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
So I've read over quite a bit in these last few pages. I recently kind of got out of legacy for awhile do to financial reasons and the fact that I wanted to focus on modern for a bit, but I'm deciding to re enter as i really miss this format. Anyways, one deck I've always wanted to play cause it just seems like it fits my play style, is MUD. I've started trading for a good portion of the pieces, but I am still confused as too what a good standard list is right now cause it seems like everyone in this thread has different lists and reasons as to why theirs is more preferred than others but no one else can agree on that.
So basically what I am asking, is does anyone have an agreeable, standard list that I can build off of so that I know what I'm doing for the most part?
Thank you!
So, for the most part, your base list will be 4x metalworker, 4x forgemaster, 4x lodestone, 2-3 wurmcoil engines, 4x grim monolith, 4x chalice of the void, 3-4x trinisphere, 1x blightsteel and/or staff of domination, and 24 lands usually being 7-8 soul lands, 4 cloudpost, 4x glimmerpost, 2-4 vesuva, and all the rest of the slots are pretty flexible, hence everyone's different variations.Quote:
Originally Posted by MTGeezy
on the first page in the primer search the page for "As of Dragons Of Tarkir…" you'll find a list like this oneQuote:
Originally Posted by MTGeezy
I think if you've never played the deck before at all it should look like this to start .
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sundering Titan
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Platinum Emperion
4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 Lightning Greaves,
1 Spine of Ish Sah,
1 Staff of Domination,
1 Staff of Nin
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 City of Traitors
3 Wasteland
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Vesuva
Also, nobody is really going to agree on 1 absolute best list, because they are all tweaking their lists to fit the local meta that they play in. You're going to play slightly different lists depending on your usual matchups.Quote:
Originally Posted by MTGeezy
This is the list I am taking to a 150 man event in another 2 weeks. Ill break it down for you, with commentary on what is usually seen in these lists, which elements are more rogue than others, etc. followed by some other common cards you might consider.
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
These cards are straight up 4 ofs in a standard metalworker/forgemaster shell, period.
3 Wurmcoil Engine
Some number of Wurmcoil Engines should always be in the deck. I prefer 3, especially in a meta with delver lists. I've seen as many as 4, but never less than 2. Other people may only be playing 1, if they are they aren't showing up in the standings, so at least 2.
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Triskelion
You will need a forgemaster package, Blightsteel will always be in it. Most lists will supplement Blightsteel with 2-3 other targets. Platinum Emperion or Angel are common ones (I prefer Emperion main since he is harder to kill), Sundering Titan is another, but I've soured on him and don't play him. Steel Hellkite is a common one; he is easily castable, but I tutor for him too. Simply put, Hellkite is insane, he flies, he pumps, he blows up boards. Triskelion and Myr Battlesphere are rogueish options that I play. Trike is great for shooting a bunch of small idiots, shooting planeswalkers, and failing those he is still a 4/4 construct that can get in for 7 in one turn. Battlesphere is a new addition to my list. He is a construct, and he puts out multiple artifacts which can be good with Forgemaster, good for blocking etc. Also, he serves as planeswalker removal (his ability can be redirected), and he also gets through maze of ith (his triggered ability isn't combat damage, you are likely to face lands in the upper brackets at big events). He is conceivably a 16 damage shot to the face if he goes in unblocked and you have your 4 tokens.
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Ugin is, simply put, ridiculous. Are you behind on board when he resolves? Now you aren't! His bolt is useful as well. Some people split 1/1 with Ugin and Karn. Ugin is just so ridiculous that I can't condone running the split.
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
3 Wasteland
You will want some combination of these lands. The flex spots are basically Wasteland and Cavern, with at least 2 Vesuva. You want to run at least 10 posts. Mishra's Factory is pretty rogue these days, but I could see running Factory, Wasteland and Crucible as a package. Total lands should be 23-24.
4 Chalice of the Void
You will play 4x chalice main, no discussion.
4 Grim Monolith
Ive seen budget type lists running Thran Dynamo. I don't like it. You need 4x mana rocks though to ramp.
1 Lightning Greaves
This is a flex spot; I prefer having it in, I've actually Forgemastered for it. Enables broken openers, protects your dudes.
1 Staff Of Domination
Some people play staff of Nin instead. I prefer this because I think it is more versatile, and it combos with Metalworker.
4 Trinisphere
I see people only running 3, which I think is pretty eh. I like the full 4, helps vs Omnitell. Usually my first card out though.
Sideboard
1 Ratchet Bomb
Pretty common card, kills flipped delvers, elves, Nimble Goose. Versatile if a little slow. Faster than Keg.
1 Spine of Ish Sah
I used to maindeck this, but people are going wider now. Versatile with Forgemaster for decks with problem targets.
1 Contagion Engine
This comes in vs elves, pyromancer decks, rug delver, infect, death and taxes. Somewhat rogue but very powerful
2 Contagion Clasp
I've never seen anyone play this but me. Its great vs decks with 1T idiots that must die fast (Revoker, infect crap, lackey)
3 Faerie Macabre
More rogue tech. I prefer this to Crypt or Relic because it can be turn 0'd, it can't be countered, and it's harder to play around.
1 Tsabo's Web
Used to be rogue, the rise of Lands has made this a common card to see. Good vs infect and DnT as well.
2 Phyrexian Revoker
Standard card, to be brought in whenever you need to shut stuff down. Self explanatory.
1 Platinum Angel
I will usually swap him in for Platinum Emperion when I bring in my dismember package, or add him straight up vs burn.
3 Dismember
Rogue in legacy, standard in Vintage. The life loss can hurt, but there is just too much stuff that needs to die fast, off 2 mana.
Some other common cards:
Pithing Needle: I don't want to play needle because it conflicts with chalice at 1, and chalice on 1 is good everywhere but the mirror. At it's best vs Lands, where revoker can't stop their land abilities.
Coercive Portal: I haven't tinkered much with this, but it's extra card draw, which we can use.
Ensnaring Bridge: I cut this from my board when Sneak and Show went the way of the dodo. Even vs Omnitell it isn't fantastic because they can release the ants. It's still a reasonable card I suppose, but rather than hide behind my bridge til I kill it with forgemaster and go off, I am trying to take the fight to them with removal.
Tormod's Crypt: Common card, I used to play it, but it can't be turn 0'd, it can be countered, and they see it coming. This would come in vs Lands and Reanimator. I have moved to Faerie Macabre, for surprise factor and uncounterability. Two cards will generally be enough. Crypt is better vs Dredge, but Legacy Dredge sucks and if I run into it I will do my best, oh well.
Grafdiggers Cage: This has all the problems of pithing needle since it's 1cmc, with the added bonus of shutting off your own forgemaster!
MUD lists are basically 90% identical, with the other 10% being tailored to personal play style and the meta. You have access to a lot of powerful sideboard cards, since many of them are artifacts.
I hope you meant 12 damage, as 4 of the tokens as to be tapped for the trigger.Quote:
He is conceivably a 16 damage shot to the face if he goes in unblocked and you have your 4 tokens.
The way I feel about Trinisphere in general is pretty eh. Which is why I only have two copies in my MD. When I played 4, these are usually the first ones out too, which is why I decide to do it preemptively. Though, I am slowly realizing that having access to four in my 75 may be correct, so I might replace some numbers of Thorns for them. Against OmniTell in general, I prefer to tempo them out of the game with Thorns/Chalice and Lodestone Golems, and beat them before they can finish their combo, or at least go off the same turn. That doesn't work when they just have all the combo pieces one Ponder away.Quote:
4 Trinisphere
I see people only running 3, which I think is pretty eh. I like the full 4, helps vs Omnitell. Usually my first card out though.
Yes, my mistake on that it is 12. Haven't gotten to play with him yet, but even corrected its still good enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by L10
I'm debating using thorns instead of 3sphere, but you would lose more to storm and omni for sure.
Regarding Grafdigger's cage: I'm pretty sure it's mostly for the elves MU. It stops GSZ and NO, which buys a lot of time and saves you from Reclamation Sage spam. Also won't stop you from Forging a Staff of Nin.
And is helpful vs Reanimator, Past in Flames, and Dredge.
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TES pretty popular here in the East Coast and a T1 Thorn is pretty strong against what could have been a T1/T2 hoard of Goblins, and is the reason why I picked up Thorns in the first place. Thorn and Lodestone Golem ability stacks, while 3sphere is static. In my 75, I have 4 Chalice, 4 Lodestone Golem, 2 Trinisphere, 3 Thorns, and 2 Revokers. I even board in the 3 Ratchet Bombs against TES so that have to go for the Tendrils route instead of ETW. My storm MU is pretty good to be honest. I think this goes back to tuning our decks to our meta.Quote:
I'm debating using thorns instead of 3sphere, but you would lose more to storm and omni for sure.
How do you play around/against Daze ? How do you anticipate it and adjust your play strategy? Should you at all?
thoughts?
It depends. I generally feel that trying to play around Daze in the first three turns is a losing strategy because a) they probably don't have it, b) they probably have one of their 10/60 counter spells (4 Daze, 4 FoW, 1/2 Spell Pierce) anyways, c) losing a turn to sandbag a card vs. a tempo deck is a bad idea. No risk, no reward. Though, if my hand doesn't have much action anyways, delaying a turn to jam that chalice may not be a bad idea.
http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/...1805283021.png
I guessed I asked for it. I wouldn't play this over Ugin. It doesn't seem bad either. I may have considered if it were an artifact. Trample is the key word this card is missing.
the only time you would want to not 'play around' daze is when you have a clear line where you can bait it to make them -1 land, and gain an advantage from that. often times its better to wait for the 1 more mana, even if it means you will be closer to 0 life when you win the game. jamming nearly every spell vs daze, in my opinion, often times doesnt work out well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Troll_ov_Grimness
force of will, however, you can just jam spells into that because they lose a bit of CA, and sometimes they will just run out of reactive ways to . just be sure you order your spells correctly so the force doesnt just end you. try to bait it out with trinispheres and the like. that being said there are also times where resolving that 1 trinisphere will ensure they cant counter your next game-ender. so, like most anything it all depends on the situation.
Chalice of the Void is very valuable to stick. My thinking has been to get that card Force'd . But this also allows them to Brainstorm anyway.
sun tzu, I think, has a more reasonable answer. Let's say my hand is on draw after a mulligan:
Ancient Tomb, Cavern of Souls, Grim Monolith, Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, Lodestone Golem, Wasteland
I'd go:
Turn 1) Use Ancient Tomb -> Grim Monolith (as bait)
Turn 2) Use Ancient Tomb + Wasteland -> Trinisphere; Use Grim Monolith -> Chalice of the Void
Turn 3) Use Ancient Tomb + Wasteland + Cavern of Souls -> Lodestone Golem
At least this is the line I would take without knowing the top two cards. Order of operation is important, as is calculating risk/reward. Shocking yourself three times hurts. What I would not do is not jam anything Turn 1 to play around Daze (with this hand).
the Trinisphere is bait for Force of Will? why not just cast Chalice @ 1 . if they pierce , what I've seen some pros do is waste their land then go to 2nd main phase. this way you see if they have a Daze or not as well. Dunno lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by L10
Actually, seeing my line again, I think it is better on turn 2 to use Grim Monolith to cast Trinisphere because if my Trinisphere hits, I can still cast Chalice @1 with my two lands. If my Trinisphere gets Forced, all I need is Ancient Tomb to cast Chalice of the Void and still have Wasteland to play around Daze if needed. If they have Pierce, I can just tap Ancient Tomb. If they have Daze, I can just tap Wasteland, and not lose life. Either ways, I rather put 3Sphere in the front lines because Chalice @1 hurts a lot more. I don't want to use Wasteland just yet because I really need pressure in the form of Lodestone Golem by Turn 3.
Also, against Grixis Delver or RUG Delver, if I happen to draw into a Wurmcoil Engine or Steel Hellkite on Turn 2, I'd just jam it down with Cavern of Souls and see if they can realistically deal with it. I don't think they can.
on the topic of RUG delver, do you guys feel the need to board into graveyard hate to neuter tarmogoyfs and hit their life from the loam if they run it (which can be super brutal with wasteland :C)
Unless its a Relic of Progenitus (which is not normally used in MUD), you can forget siding grave hate for RUG. Its not effective enough and more so a waste of a slot.Quote:
Originally Posted by sun tzu
So I'm thinking of building this deck for upcoming tournament(s). I have most of the manabase but if I want to go the non-12post route I have to get Wastelands. Can someone tell me how essential Wastelands are in this deck and whether or not I can play without them? The 23rd place list from Legacy Champs just played 12 post + Cities + Tombs + Factories. Is this the best manabase ATM for MUD or do you guys in here have differing opinions and why?