Printable View
What are you guys thoughts on Haunted Dead?
The token comes into play untapped and is a decent blocker...
Between the sac effects we run, every recurrence gives you an token...
The discard requirement might be tough for lists without Life From the Loam
I think it does not only cost too much, but it also gives us too much card disadvantage, while being a really slow clock.Quote:
Originally Posted by streetMage
Has anyone ever thought about vehicles? They dodge our boardwipes and can be crewd with Mishra's Factory or Nether Spirit (and even Liliana).
The only ones worth considering are:
Smuggler's Copter (3 Power - 1 Crew - 2 mana - Has looting ability)
Heart of Kiran (4 Power - 3 Crew - 2 mana - Can be crewed by Liliana)
Skysovereign, Consul Flagship (6 Power - 3 Crew - 5 mana - Bolt on each attack)
They all seem strong on their own, but then again, they feel like too much do-nothing. Do I really want a card that can't do anything without Mishra's, Nether Spirit and Liliana?
Bloodghast seems to (kinda) fill the same role without making deckbuilding this awkward.
For now I will go for Ob Nixilis Reignited as another win condition, though I'm also interested in trying some big Pox in my list.
Vehicles belong to the group of cards that need enablers to function, and we know those are useless.
For example, contamination or Waste Not.
I disagree that the deck should be light on threats, but quality is probably better than quantity. Nihilith, for example, is a worse creature than Tombstalker, but of better quality since it work so well with pox. I have run both but may stick to Nihilith and bloodghasts.
I believe this is correct - that we should be thinking about running more effective threats. That definitely means threats that are more effective at winning the game, and it may also mean a higher number of threats.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
Many of the stock builds of this deck include very few threats and win conditions, and they seem to do so with the idea that we're a control deck, and that once we establish control of the game then we can take our time winning with nether spirit or mishra's Factory beatdown.
But I think that is a fundamentally flawed approach, because we are not a real control deck. That is, we never really establish hard control of the game. We definitely disrupt the game. And we can establish very temporary control by wiping out an opponents hand and board. But without a way to exploit those situations and seal a win quickly once that state is achieved, we durdle around and eventually, too often, they draw out of it.
So I think building with very limited / weak threats in the hope of slowly winning once control is established is going to be a losing proposition. Unless we're running a nether void prison build, the lock isn't strong enough to rely on factories and scrolls.
The categories of threats that seems to make more sense include:
- Static effects that continuously damage or at least pressure the opponent -- such as the rack, black vice, underworld dreams (another legends favorite of mine too!), or to some extent even Bitterblossom
- Powerful creatures that can end the game in a few swings, such as Abyssal Persecutor, Tombstalker, Gurmag Angler, wurmcoil engine, or the new Herald of Anguish
- powerful spells that are super efficient and/or significantly damage the opponent. Big Pox is the poster child here. Something like Corrupt would also be great if it were cheaper and we could count on having more lands in play, but we generally can't.
- Planeswalkers with potentially game winning abilities and ultimates like Ob Nixilis, Tezzeret Agent of Bolas, or something else. Liliana of the Veil is good in a support role, but not a game winner on her own.
So again it comes to the question of what is the best way to WIN. The disruption suite has to be in service of a clear plan to win, not as an end unto itself. And all that adds up to the need for better, more lethal threats that we build to support.
Having both a rack and Bloodghast in play have been favorite position to be in. Particularly if the opponent tries to hide behind the crazy bridge.
I would like to have two sets of Bloodghast in the deck :) However, rather than trying to find more cards that copy something in the deck (like using wrench mind as Hymn no. 5) I have experimented in seriously thinning the deck with cantrips (8-12). I may do so again.
(I used gitaxian probe and Street Wraith since I run Mono B)
I suppose the efficiency of this varies by the build, but I found a couple weekends ago that 3 of my 4 match losses in Louisville came from trying to kill my opponent quickly instead of just locking them out of the game. I found that I (almost)always had the ability to just win an inevitable long game, but three game three's went to me trying to kill them quickly where if I had waited 3 turns there would have literally (no, really, literally) been no way for my opponent to win the game and I could have killed them at my leisure instead. As such, I do actually think that a pox deck built towards it can be a proper control deck, it's just a matter of how you as a player and deck builder interact with your library and games.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quitrex
Could you elaborate a bit more on the game states, like how you would have been more certain to lock your opponent out and win more inevitably, and which wrong lines you took? Seems like a good discussion to learn from.
Ive been experimenting with this myself as well. Been trying Mishra's Bauble, Urza's Bauble, and Lodestone Bauble.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
All provide small advantages or bits of information while cantripping for cheap or free.
Urzas bauble can help us know if it's worth firing off a discard spell when the opponent has low cards in hand.
Lodestone Bauble can help us get our own lands back if need be, or in certain cases even stack the top of the opponents deck with basic land "dead draws" if we have wiped their resources and need a little more time to win. It also combos well with Mox Diamond.
All of these artifacts are also improvise enablers if we're interested in Herald of Anguish. And they work great with Delve, too, if we're interested in Tomb Stalker or Germag Angler.
Even better, they are all PERFECT Revolt enablers for Fatal Push - even on the opponents turn, basically whenever we want.
Perhaps most importantly though, these cards effectively let us "store" cards in hand on the table until we want to draw them.
This means we can reduce our hand size when needed to avoid discarding business spells to our own Liliana or Pox for example. And since they cost zero mana to play and the effects are so minor, and they can be sacrificed at instant speed, they are all very safe from opponent disruption.
Playing some number of these cards may allow us to "thin" our deck, play 1 or 2 fewer lands, and avoid discarding stuff we don't want to.
Has anyone else tried these baubles?
So i built the mono black deck minus a couple of cards I intend on trading into/winning credit and purchasing. This is what I've settled on:
1 Nether Spirit
2 Cursed Scroll
1 Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
=4
4 Smallpox
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Sinkhole
1 Crucible of Worlds
=12
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Ritual
=12
4 Innocent Blood
3 Fatal Push
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Diabolic Edict*
=11
10 Swamps
4 Wasteland
2 Mishra's Factory
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Sea Gate Wreckage
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Cabal Pit
=21
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Lost Legacy
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needles
2 Duress
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Trinisphere
Cards I'd like to include:
A 2nd Toxic Deluge, Underworld Dreams, 4 Leyline of the Void sideboard, dread of night
I'd like to hear your thoughts on:
- Sea Gate Wreckage.
- additional lands. Is 21 enough. I don't think I'd want to go more than 23, especially running dark ritual.
- dark rituals (feels like it's absolutely necessary given that you can power out a 1st turn lost legacy versus combo decks)
- ob nixilis of the Black Oath vs ob nixilis reignited. Feels like black oath is a much better win con but reignited is obviously a much better draw source. Either one can be jammed t1 off of the silly 2 Dark Ritual hands versus non Force of will decks.
- I'm wondering if there are some more nuanced strategical cards I'm forgetting. The Planeswalkers help, however is there a card I'm forgetting? Does collective brutality make sense at all?
Im excited to mount up
Sick Whips
39
4 Smallpox
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Ritual
1 Jitte
3 Bloodghast
1 Bitterblossom
4 Smugglers coptors
3 Innocent Blood
4 Fatal Push
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Sinkhole
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Crucible of Worlds
21
10 Swamps
4 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 City of Traitors
1 Sea Gate Wreckage
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Tabernacle of the Pendrall Vale
2 Lost Legacy
2 Pithing Needles
2 Duress
1 Winter Orb
So, the first match I lost was lands. My misplays were twofold, both in game three: the first was using a wasteland on basically anything but a dark depths after surgicaling his loams, he played a dark depths three turns later that I couldn't kill to extirpate. The second mistake Was that I played my second factory instead of pitching it to a diamond so that I would have a source of mana through the inevitable wastelands/ports he would draw. I played the factory in attempt to take several turns off the clock (was attacking with one factory, had a mox diamond in hand, he was on an odd life total incriment, specifically 9.)
My second match loss was rng deciding to kill me with a sneak and show opponent. G1 mull to 5, keep wasteland x3, hymn, abrupt decay, scry urborg to the top on the draw. His t1 was island ponder. His turn 2 was island, petal, put a griselbrand in play. Game 2 was one of those hands where if you draw a third land within 5 turns in a 25 land deck, you can just spew hate until they don't get to do anything, and I had castable hymn, seize, and extirpate. He forced the seize, and turn 1 omni told me.
Next loss was a game 3 vs omnitell. I left in 2 abrupt decay (idiotically) instead of bringing in the two extirpates. I had an abyss out, a needle on griselbrand, and died to an end of turn intuition for 3 emrakul's, untap, cast and activate sneak attack with both decays in my hand. Technically that was a sideboard error instead of an actual play error, but...
Last match I lost was due to an atrocious mis-sequencing of when to drop my urborg and what to wasteland against D&T game 3(pointed it at a karakas, I think I was hoping to get him off of white mana. Unrelated note, it didn't work.) that wound up getting me locked under port+Thalia with my swamp being what was tapped and my forest and abyss sitting there looking soulfully at his mother of ruins. To be entirely fair, there is a good shot that I lost that game whether I sequences things correctly or not, but it would have hurt my pride a lot less if I hadn't messed it up.
The list I played did basically everything I want in the deck, just needed some tweaking (was a terrible weekend for the main board blossoms, they should have been the third scroll and a deluge).
1 bayou
1 cabal pit
1 Forest
2 marsh flats
4 Mishra's factory
4 swamp
1 tabernacle
3 urborg
4 verdant catacomb
4 wasteland
1 nether spirit
4 abrupt decay
2 bitterblossom
1 crucible of worlds
2 cursed scroll
1 grim tutor
4 hymn to tourach
4 Liliana of the veil
2 mox diamond
2 nether void
3 sinkhole
4 smallpox
1 abyss
4 thoughtseize
1 black sun's zenith
2 ensnaring bridge
2 extirpate
1 Liliana the last hope
1 on nixilis reignited
3 pithing needle
3 surgical extraction
1 the abyss
1 toxic deluge
Changes I have made (and been happy with) since then
Main
-1 nether void
-2 bitterblossom
+1 cursed scroll
+1 toxic deluge
+1 Ob nixilis, reignited
Side
-1 surgical extraction
-1 Ob nixilis
+1 chains
+1 nether void
I have been looking at them when I pushed for 12-16 cantrips (theoretically we can go to 20). I think they would work best with sensei's divining top. That way we put that Fatal Push, or Darkblast where or when we want them.Quote:
Originally Posted by heyjohnsexton
Problem is I worry over getting screwed by chalice players by relying on those artifacts to much.
The advantage of cantrips probably lies more in card drawing effects when we want them, rather than increase probability of good draws.
So, I recently shared my mono black list. This is close to what I would play with a white splash. I like a couple of things about the white splash better :
1. Much better sideboard options.
2. Even more commitment to resource denial.
3. Faster and more synergistic win cons.
The big reason I dislike it is that the mana curve has many 3 drops but it's difficult to fit in a way of recouping the card disadvantage of Chrome Mox or Mox diamond. Of course, I run dark ritual in mono black but that feels more like a mini combo start that can hypothetically win you a game right off the bat.
4 Smallpox
3 Sinkhoke
3 Vindicate
4 Liliana of the Veil
=14
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Innocent Blood / Fatal Push
2 Toxic Deluge
=9
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Crucible of Worlds
=8
2 Lingering Souls
1 Bitterblossom
2 Cursed Scroll
1 Nether Spirit
=6
4 Wasteland
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Plains
3 Swamp
2 Mishra's Factory
3 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
1 Sea Gate Wreckage
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Cabal Pit
=23
Sb
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Disenchant
2 Containment Priest
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Circle of Protection : Red
2 Trinisphere
1 Pithing Needles
1 Duress
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Silence
Interesting list. I was also interested in a white splash just because I love Vindicate so much.Quote:
Originally Posted by ClimbGneiss
What do you mean by Chrome Mox and Mox Diamond? Have you tried including them? Have you any playtest with your build or is it just a suggestion you would like to try.
In the past ive tried Mox Diamond and it feels like you run out of gas really fast. For example, on the play, you might be down to 3 or 4 cards after certain starts with diamond. Of course your opponent will be diminished too; but, it's still a substantial loss.Quote:
Originally Posted by HansoRaptor
Conversely, without mana acceleration you are always hoping for a turn off from your opponent where you can finally break them with your onslaught of 1 for 1 hate.
It always felt like I cleared a huge number of creatures and was at 4 life points when I dropped Lingering Souls followed by Sorin.
Finally I should note that the past few times I've tried to play pox were unequivocally the worst times in recent memory:
Vs treasure cruise ur delver, vs omni tell, vs the height of lands, and now the height or br reanimator
Well perhaps Pox is just a bad deck until they print some cards that are perfect for this deck (a swamp with undying for example). Don't get me wrong, I love this deck, but playing it online is sometimes so depressing. No other deck has ever given me that feeling.Quote:
Originally Posted by ClimbGneiss
The biggest problem I see is that if you play a control deck with a lot of lands (which is normal for a control deck), you need card filtering. Otherwise it is inevitable that you draw too much of your lands and lose control. You can avoid that by shuffling away all the lands that you don't need (Brainstorm, Ponder, Top). And if you need lands you can search for them (with Brainstorm, Ponder, Top). But we don't have this search option in Pox, so we're forced to play just a huge amount of lands to guarantee the land drops on turn 1-3, but due to this high number, we tend to draw five lands in a row and lose the game.
I build pox online and playtested it the last few days, but seeing how it performs, I don't have to desire to actually convert that to paper, which is sad, really :(
I agree completely. When I got back into competitive magic - when liliana of the Veil was printed - I was so excited to play pox. Like you mentoned, you often lose top deck wars even though you were the one who initiated that game state.Quote:
Originally Posted by HansoRaptor
Kennen Haas' jund depths was a creative take to pox. And I think there is something to learn there. Maybe smallpox isn't good enough, or doesn't have the right support cards, to be its own featured card in a competitive legacy deck?
I switched to deathblade a while back, I've played lands, I've played storm. Like any other deck, you take your lumps and occasionally fight through them and win a tournament. Pox never seems to turn the corner.
Perhaps, a little outside the box thinking?
Some random ideas:
- bring back jund depths
- a heavier creature build. Use drs and Wasteland and sinkhole to shut out opponent. Unearth and smallpox? Jace Vryn's prodigy?
The Pox archetype is still a great and viable, its mono-black Pox that's not...Quote:
Originally Posted by ClimbGneiss
Black on its own just doesn't have all the necessary tools.
B/W can work and has: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14029&d=283246&f=LE.
But if you look at that list closely you'll find no Sinkhole or Cursed Scroll, cards that I think are pure durdle material.
Personally, I find B/G the most interesting: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14378&d=285961&f=LE (my list from a League I 5-0'd).
B/G is a little more forgiving and allows for some durdling, but that's because of the virtual card advantage provided by Life from the Loam, Crop Rotation and Entomb. Not to mention the threat of Stage/Depths combo. Bloodghast is just pure gas.
Don't get me wrong, I'm constantly tweaking the list, but I never really feel completely out of it when it comes to match-ups..Sideboarding correctly is something I sometimes find very difficult, but getting better at...Quote:
Originally Posted by ClimbGneiss
For example, some of my tough match-ups is Shardless Bug. I usto keep Hymn to Tourach in against and all my discard; until I realized the board was more important...esp since they can Ancestral Vision.
Imho, Pox isn't supposed "to turn the corner", its supposed to back your opponent into one...
Just my two cents.
Thanks you for the thoughtful reply.Quote:
Originally Posted by streetMage
The most recent iteration that I attempted competitively was bg pox depths. It has the feeling of a viable legacy deck because there are many lines of play for different situations. Like you mentioned, running Crop Rotation and entomb gives you a lot of options. I had mine geared to compete with miracles based off the build of a friendly acquanitance. Sensei's divining top felt like a good inclusion. And yes it was durdly.
Black white pox, to me, was the funnest to play. I remember fondly getting my elves opponent to zero permanents and zero cards in hand.
I'm about to try mono black because I think that dark ritual pox could be strong right now due to the printing of fatal push and lost legacy. Against fair decks, turn 1 on the play or the draw, dark Ritual can really take out their opening hand. Being mono colored, it could be difficult to continue to dominate the mid and late game. I'm very excited about lost legacy off of dark ritual vs combo decks. It feels like that's a strong post board route vs combo decks, and if that fails, that probably means that your typical discard plan is much stronger than usual.
I started running a couple Collective Brutality with a standard Loam Pox build. In the right game situation it was very good. I decided to experiment with a build that really tries to achieve a synergy with Loam, Smallpox, Bloodghast and, as it developed, Raven's Crime. Some Liliana, Abrupt Decay and Pernicious Deed clean up the scraps.
Rather than include the Depths combo for oops knockout punch, I decided to nix it because I went to three Entombs and just one Crop Rotation, and this deck is pretty efficient,* unlike some of my past more durdly ones, so even those two cards I could think to do other things. The game is going dink dink dink constantly at their life with Bloodghasts, Factories and minor life loss from Collective Brutality and even Smallpox, while they can't keep a creature out to block or attack with.
And Collective Brutality....ooh boy. It's just Naaaaasty when grouped with 4 Bloodghasts, 4 Raven's Crime 4 Life from the Loam and a bunch of Lands. Most of the time there are a couple things you don't mind pitching,* and with four copies it's not uncommon to play it for all three modes on turn 2 without sweating it, and that's just backbreaking. Follow it up with a Smallpox a turn or two later.
Yes, Raven's Crime doesn't target, but remember Collective Brutality is targeted discard, and three Duress await in the sideboard.
It is very grave dependant you may say. Well, yes, but in the end it does best to be what it is and put the onus on them to stop it. It has so much redundancy it can be a bit resilient and build back up after a grave wipe. Abrupt Decay and Maelstrom Pulse and Krosan Grip can ensure no permanent grave hate stays for long. Still, I often side out
-1 Entomb
-1 Life from the Loam
-1 Raven's Crime
-1 Collective Brutality
in anticipation of grave hate.
It hums like a machine, I'm pleased with it so far.
2 Pernicious Deed
4 Bloodghast
4 Lilliana of the Veil
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Crop Rotation
3 Entomb
3 Innocent Blood
4 Raven's Crime
4 Life from the Loam
4 Smallpox
4 Collective Brutality
24 Land
4*Bayou
4*Wasteland
4*Verdant Catacombs
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mishra’s Factory
1*Misty Rainforest
1*Maze of Ith
2 Swamp
1 Forest
Sideboard
1 Trinisphere
2 Sphere of Resistance
2 Toxic Deluge
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Krosan Grip
1*Maelstrom Pulse
3 Duress