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The deck doesn't need stupid pet tricks to perform better. It needs redundancy, resiliency and strength. We have all that in the core cards, and GSZ has given us the redundancy we've been lacking.
This is a great metagame for us. It's a wasted opportunity to spend it playing silly fun cards and wondering why you're losing, when you could just run a streamlined, strong version of the deck and rock the metagame.
And progenitus can't attack when you have moat out.
Exactly. But it's not stupid, just an option although i dont like it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatest Gargadon
On blue: the biggest cards that blue can provide are: In the Eye of Chaos and Words of Wind and i'm not sure if the worth...
A progenitus win con could be a good thing for the deck, you just can't shoe-horn it into the current build. The way I think it would be most successful is through a complete revamping of the deck to support NO Prog.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenCid
Off the top of my head, you'd cut moat, and elephant grass, (because those stop you from attacking too.) and remove the red splash, and add in a blue splash for energyfield/wheel of sun and moon combo (to replace the moat effect this deck so desperately needs) and up the Green sun count to a four-of so we can ALWAYS have an argothian out to feed to NO.
Finally, In the Eye's of Chaos (since everyone seems to want to use that card =P) can be used to protect the combo or cards like city of solitude. There were a few other blue enchantments that were mentioned that do some card filtering, those could be good.
Again this is just off the top of my head. (and I'm a die-hard naya enchantress lover)
Again: Words of war needs you to draw ten cards and it's over, its a clock, its pressure, its creature control its a solid win. Words of wind...bounces everything...I mean it's great with Emrakul though.. play emrakul, swing, bounce it, play it again, swing. But that's just so win-more its borderline insulting to your opponent. xD
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freggle
I think this was taken out of context. I meant fresh for the archetype.Quote:
Originally Posted by caiomarcos
I have tested it. The builds I tested it in ran some old school tech with Wall of Blossoms and some hidden enchantments (Hidden Herd, Hidden Gibbons) as an additional sac outlet.
It was good at what it was supposed to do. Making a lightning quick Progenitus. It was very hard to disrupt being that it ran nothing but basic forests and it had City of Solitude to push the combo through.
I tabled it because I moved on to what eventually became a Maveric NO with Summoning Trap list at the time because the meta was filled with Mental Misstep at the time and it was very easy to have a mana dude countered (many times T1) to flop out a Progenitus.
I understand your stance, and I do not totally disagree with it. There is a solid core to this deck, but could there be minor changes made to the list that could have a major positive effect in play?Quote:
Originally Posted by SpatulaOfTheAges
Just read this thread. Moat has been under performing for a while could there be a similar card with a similar effect for this deck like Energy Field? Energy Field also stops direct damage cold.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatest Gargadon
I'd be careful with the number of GSZ's run as they do shuffle back in. You don't want to wast too many slots that do not trigger draws while we are rolling or the deck fizzles a lot more. If you wan to run close to the max of GSZ'z you would want to run Dungrove Elder be an alt aggro target that is a pain for many, many decks. Especially lists with ExplorationQuote:
Originally Posted by Greatest Gargadon
I have a fairly healthy disdain for blue in general myself (if that i where this stems from.) I used to be a major blue player until Alliances was printed and all but neutered my all time favorite archetype recursion. Sure I 'll play lists with blue, but it's not my go to thing. ...but I'd have to say it's pretty fun to infiltrate their color and play things like In the Eye of Chaos or a tempo Choke list like I posted here to give them a taste of their medicine.Quote:
Originally Posted by caiomarcos
Edit: You can still run Elephant Grass and Natural Order / Progenitus together. You just to pay grass's upkeep cost the turn after summoning sickness.
Reread Elephant Grass. There are a couple of pesky "you"s in there that you might not have noticed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatest Gargadon
Damn those ''you''s, hiding in places and changing my perception.Quote:
Originally Posted by aahz
If all that grass was out of the way, I'd be able to read it properly.. =/
Well, its a little under 2 weeks until Minneapolis has its own Starcity Games IQ and I am frantically scurrying about, trying to decide between my 3 docks (Deadguy Ale w/green splash, MUD Dragon Stompy, Enchantress) I'll be taking with me.
Recently I've had rather excellent success with my Deadguy build, especially since adding Manriki-Gusari to the Stoneforge toolbox, but I found even with Gusari/Deed the deck had issues in the Maverick MU.
I've styled my Dragon Stompy deck after MUD so its artifact-heavy and has multiple answers to many of the meta MU (Combust, Cursed Totem, Shattering Spree, Etched Champion) however for those of you who don't know DS is highly inconsistent and I am fearful that even with the hate I have added it will have great difficulty in dealing with Maverick as well.
So, this leaves Enchantress for consideration. Now, in my mind the primary DTB are Maverick, URx Delver/Thresh, U/W Stoneblade, Misc. combo (Reanimator/Dredge primarily). Now, although Enchantress does have its weaknesses against combo I consider the Stoneforge/Maverick decks to be far more prevalent in the metas so this leads me to think Enchantress might have a fairly decent chance.
I've invested the past 1-2 months in developed my MUD Dragon Stompy deck so I've not had much chance to test Enchantress in the current meta.
Can anyone with experience please give me insights as to how this deck has played since the release of Thalia? What have been some problem cards you've noted? Have there been certain MU's you just couldn't handle?
For reference, here is my current list:
4 Windswept Heath
2 Arid Mesa
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Serra's Sanctum
1 Taiga
1 Plateau
5 Forest
3 Plains
1 Replenish
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Elephant Grass
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Sterling Grove
1 Ground Seal
3 Solitary Confinement
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Enchantress's Presence
1 Words of War
1 Blood Moon
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Replenish
1 Karmic Justice
1 Vexing Shusher
2 Choke
2 City of Solitude
2 Aura of Silence
3 Stony Silence
3 Leyline of Sanctity
All-in-all, a rather standard list. The main thing you should note, however, is that this is the build I last played about 1-2 months ago, and it was tailored specifically for my local meta at the time which was rampant with Uxx, Painter Combo, and decks with greedy mana bases. This is NOT the list I would plan on taking to Starcity.
Ground Seal
Blood Moon
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Vexing Shusher
Should all be considered flex spots right off the bat.
As it stands I'm still in a very aggro mindset as I've invested time everyday to improving my MUD Dragon Stompy build, which has only been dampened since last night I took apart my Rock deck, rebuilt it as Deadguy, and took nearly first place at a local tourney so my head has been swimming with perhaps piloting that.
If anyone with vivid experience in the current meta has suggestions for how I might improve/adapt this build, I'd appreciate suggestions.
Forlorn Egoist
New card that looks especially excellent for Enchantress: Abundant Growth.
Might consider splashing stronger now. At the very least, will lead to a more stable mana base and more cards over the early bits of the game.
EDIT: Picture, since I forgot the cards tag will not work yet...
http://media.wizards.com/images/magi...igrz0qv_en.jpg
I'm not that sure. Card drawing is good, but simple mana fixing pales in comparison to mana acceleration.
Yeah, I failed to catch that when reading through it.
Regardless, it will still probably be playable. Not over Utopia Sprawl, certainly, but I think running some alongside it will be decent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HPB_Eggo
This deck does not need mana fixing, not the current lists.
Cantrip is good, but not even Ground Seal is seeing much play, and it cantrips AND does something very useful.
I'm mostly thinking of running it to fix a three or four color list.Quote:
Originally Posted by caiomarcos
Of course, it remains to be seen if I can find a good reason to actually run a three/four color list. I certainly haven't in the past (outside of a light red splash in some cases) but there's always a good chance I haven't been quite thorough enough.
Your game plan can shift a little bit now. White is basically in the deck for Sterling Grove, Enlightened Tutor, Moat (less and less), and Solitary Confinement. Because those are the colors we like, we tend to run a lot more white cards because they are easier to cast. Abundant Growth could give you the ability to play any of those cards without making a huge white investment.
I will likely run the usual Confinement package and maybe 2 Sterling Grove.
Do we have a comprehensive list of non-Green, non-White enchantments that fit well into this deck's plan? I can think of about 6.
Abundant Growth is another card which makes Words of Wind even better. Before to "go off" you needed a couple of Enchantresses in play or way too much mana. With Abundant Growth, you can bounce 2-3 permanents a turn starting turn 3. It also seems great for you Words of War people out there.
Also, does this card mean Prosbloom is back? We have 8 awesome cantrip-y Enchantments now and 12 good Enchantress effects. Wrong thread, probably.
So I did something pretty hilarious at the last Legacy FNM; I tossed one Ancestral Mask in. I actually won like 3 games with it! Against pox, after stabilizing(at 4 then 1 life!!) I dropped a mask on a single sigil token and swung with a 20/20 plus angel, both games. Obviously not a great choice; I didn't care though as it was FNM, but I like making sigil into a faster kill w/o using crossroads. Noone is going to add this sweet tech to their deck, just something funny I thought I'd share :)
Well, made a 4-0 in a small tournament with enchantress. Faced diverse decks: Burn, Maverick, Manaless Dredge and Dead Guy (with red splash).
These are the results:
Burn: 2-1 Side: -1 Moat -1 Ground Seal -2 O-ring -1 Replenish: +4 Leyline of Sancticity +1 CpP: RED.
Dredge: 2-0 Side: -1 Moat -1 Runed halo (or karmic justice, dont remember): +2Wheel.
Maverick: 2-0 Side: -1 Moat -1 runed halo +1 Karmic justice +1 Blood moon (horrible).
Dead guy: 2-0 Side: -1 Runed halo -1Moat or o-ring (dont remember) +1 Stony silence +1 CoP.
Global: 8-1! :)
The main comment i have is that i sided out Moat very often. No goblins, no merfolks, clique, delver, Scryb Ranger, Elspeth are everywhere! Does it worth today??
My list:
// Lands
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [US] Serra's Sanctum
1 [B] Taiga
1 [RAV] Temple Garden
3 [ZEN] Plains (2a)
6 [ZEN] Forest (4a)
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
// Creatures
4 [US] Argothian Enchantress
// Spells
1 [ON] Words of War
2 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
2 [UD] Replenish
2 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
1 [LG] Moat
1 [OD] Karmic Justice
4 [ON] Enchantress's Presence
1 [CFX] Sigil of the Empty Throne
4 [DIS] Utopia Sprawl
3 [U] Wild Growth
2 [TE] Mirri's Guile
4 [VI] Elephant Grass
3 [JU] Solitary Confinement
4 [IN] Sterling Grove
1 [OD] Ground Seal
1 [SHM] Runed Halo
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [OD] Karmic Justice
SB: 2 [SHM] Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 4 [US] Carpet of Flowers
SB: 1 [7E] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 [ISD] Stony Silence
SB: 1 [9E] Blood Moon
SB: 1 [VI] City of Solitude
Any comment is very welcomed. Detailed report is available if you are interested
As "nice note" i was suprised when my oponent running maverick revealed me a Mindbreak Trap in his hand awaiting for me to cast the 3rd spell in my turn i locked him. That would have been plablematic because he wasted my karakas and landed a Goddock Teeg so countering me WoW or SoteT would have been almost game for him because Replenish is useless too...
Honestly manaless spell are becoming more and more unconfortable for me...
That would make sense if you could cast Mindbreak Trap with Gaddock Teeg in play.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenCid
Yes off course, he didn't notice that, but my idea was to point the situation: He counters my win cond if i dont hit replenish fast i pass the turn and gaddock enters. Works like that. Anyway i'm not sure if my opo was conscious of some interactions. The played zenith with gaddonk on line, off course i pointed that and he couldnt do anything but i just wanted to comment that experience...Quote:
Originally Posted by Di
Since I see this thread turning a little bit today I thought I would mention that I ran an alternate enchantress list this past weekend at the Star City Orlando open.
The list featured non-traditional choices in Energy Field and Defense of the Heart.
Both of them performed remarkably well. The list and tournament report can be found here.
It ultimately placed 47th, but I would say (even though I tested quite a bit) the list is far from optimal, and moreso my play on that day was world from where I wanted it to be.
I know there was talk earlier in this thread of at least piecing together a comprehensive list of other colors enchantress could explore. Is that still something that this thread is willing to do?
Energy Field / Wheel of Sun and Moon seemed to bring the format to it's knees outside of 1 Mangara of Corondor on Sunday.
I would also appreciate any feedback on the list I played as I may make the journey to GP Atlanta to give it another go.