[DTB] Vial Goblins

My experience is that Gobs often uses the mana denial as tempo tools rather than to lock people out; to that end, Goblin Guide has little to no drawback. Having a 2/2 Hasty guy beat the opponent down while tapping them down or w/e doesn't seem too bad to be honest. I know I'm gonna test him for sure, in a build with 4 Ports and 4 Wastes.

Annoying drawback, but frankly, after a point the extra lands stop mattering while hasty 2/2s for 1 are still pretty good. On counterbalance, the ability also gives you some info such as what the opp is going to draw, what's on top for Counterbalance and so on. Not amazing vs. Top, but then again, if they want to be utilizing it with Top, they'll need to be tying together their mana on the early turns while getting beat up; not sure it's a trade-off worth it for them.

Between the staples, the new lackey, Chieftain and some form of removal, where are you finding the slots to fit in a vanilla 2/2 with haste??

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Originally Posted by GreenOne

Between the staples, the new lackey, Chieftain and some form of removal, where are you finding the slots to fit in a vanilla 2/2 with haste??

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I'm probably trying the 2/2 Haste before the new Lackey; I feel the curve needs more help at 1CC than 2CC.

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Originally Posted by Eldariel

I'm probably trying the 2/2 Haste before the new Lackey; I feel the curve needs more help at 1CC than 2CC.

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I'm gonna say it frankly. The 2/2 haste is a bad card in goblin. It's more a Sligh/RDW card.
I would probably not play it, even without the "draw a land" clause.
Goblin is a consistent deck that wants either the game to go into the midgame to get the draw engine going and win through card advantage, or to cheat threats into play and win cheating on mana. A 2/2 haste is not going to help either plan. Even fanatic is better, being able to take away confidant and other critters, and act like a tempo tool to fastforward into the middle game.
Every card in the deck has some utility*: It's either a strong tempo tool, or a CA machine. This thing is sure as hell not a CA machine. He's just a vanilla beater, that means he have to end the game in a short time to be effective, and 10 turns is not a short time. Piledriver is just better at doing this, being awesome in the merfolk matchup, and suddenly surprising the opponent.
People can handle Nacatl in this format. I bet noone is going to get scared at a 2/2, even in the first turn.
It might be decent if you have a fast hand and drop it in the first turn. In any other case, you'll curse draing it, while drawing a lackey is always scary, as long as you have cards in hand.
Haste is also redundant with 4-8 chiefs.


*some utility for us, not for the opponent like this guy.

Instigator is very interesting. That kind of power makes it worth jumping through a hoop or two to get him into play. How about something like this?

4 x aether vial
4 x Lackey
4 x instigator
1 x piledriver
4 x stingscourger
3 x warchief
4 x matron
3 x chieftan
4 x ringleader
1 x SGC
4 x reckless charge
4 x simian spirit guide

15 x mountains
1 x gemstone caverns
4 x wasteland

I know reckless charge isn't a spectacular card in general, but it gives you a chance to do some very broken thinks with lackey and instigator. Spirit guide and caverns give you a possibility of turn 1 instigator.

I see a problem with cutting 3 Piledrivers for Stingscourgers or Reckless Charge. Piledriver is our ridiculously efficient damage dealer. We still have to get the opponent to zero life to win the game. Piledriver is one of our biggest threats, and it has the potential to make that happen very quickly.

Simian Spirit Guide seems like an interesting idea. I still feel that Chrome Mox is superior to that and Gemstone Caverns. I like the idea of having the extra first turn mana but still think Chrome Mox does a better job than either of these cards. Goblins have the draw engines to make up for the card disadvantage. Drawing multiple Chrome Mox or drawing it late game sucks, so I think three is the correct number to run.

As for Reckless Charge having tricks with Lackey, I don't really see any collaboration between those two cards.

GG really is absolutely terrabad. The 'well, he only gives them lands 1/3 of the time argument is super-loose, like saying bob only flips lands 1/3 of the time, as most times bob is accompanied by cantrips and/or top. I'm not saying that your opponent will always have cantrips and/or tops, but hell even zoo is running 2x sylvan library as deck manipulation, thus he often gives your opponent an effect similar to having a bob, and while I do respect his ability to deal more damage than a lightning bolt by the SECOND turn, he's really just not worth it.

WI is worth at least testing a chrome mox gemstone caverns list for, more explosive power in addition to having moxen/caverns to protect your normal lackys/vials on the draw from daze is also attractive.

Speculation, speculation, speculation...

@Ectoplasm: Very good post, you hit the nail on the head.

Here is my analysis of both Goblin Guide and Warren Instigator.

Goblin Guide looks terrible on the surface, but the other options are not leagues better so it's still a reasonable option (Fanatic, Relic, Caverns). To have no additional 1 CC spell isn't an option for me, so I am going to consider him.

That all said, considering both Top and Brainstorm are both seeing a lot of play in the format the drawback is pretty severe. He also decrease the chances of opposing manascrew. It's pretty hard to tell, right now I'm leaning not playing it but I am going to test it for a bit to get a more definite answer.

Warren Instigator is a bizarre card, he basically says: when you connect with a Ringleader, Matron or Siege Gang on hand you win. His synergy with Chieftain is obvious and excites me quite a bit. But the danger of cool things is lurking and we must be aware of this; he is very weak when you are behind on boardposition and he is very easy to deal with.The manacost is awful, he probably requires to cut Ports and those are great when you are out of gas thus making your position when being behind even worse.
My verdict without testing: He doesn't shore up any of our weaknesses and is likely winmore.

Please note that people have been very wrong about cards before, I have heard people say Goyf wasn't that good or that Gifts was terrible in Vintage.

I think Ports are already losing ground against the RR of Instigator and the fact that you'll be wanting to tap out on turn two more often.

I'm going to have to disagree with everyone wanting to include Goblin Guide. If I'm wrong after testing I'll gladly admit that but this card looks really bad. Part of this is dependand on metagame though, Goblin Guide spells "I'm going to kill you turn 4" and that is not in line with the rest of the deck. Casting Goblin Guide after turn 1 is bad and it's a horrible topdeck too. I'd only include him against combo decks.

Warren Instigator, on the other hand, is nice. And while he won't be the best creature in the deck he's definitly up there. Goblins strong point is that every creature you play either is a threat or leads to a threat if unanswered effectively forcing your opponent to play STP.dec to keep up with your endless stream of threats. Warren Instigator is amazing in this context.

The suggestion to make Goblins lords.dec is intrigueing but are you willing to cut Goblin Ringleader? What about Goblin Matron or Siege Gang Commander? It is possible though, stopping your curve at 3 mana means you play less lands and you can probably get away with it, I doubt I'd feel comfortable with a less diverse curve and no mainboard outs again Moat (SGC). Lords.dec should be viable but you'd probably need to get rid of a lot of the things good about Goblins.

So I think playing less lands would be the only viable choice in making that work with 4 Ringleaders (Wort?) and SGC as the only cards above 3 mana can you play 20 lands? (4 Wasteland) I'm not so sure.

Note I think it's a pretty good idea to play more lords in goblins, with the hate against tribal increasing.

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Originally Posted by Nessaja

Lords.dec should be viable but you'd probably need to get rid of a lot of the things good about Goblins.

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This.
The thing I love about goblins most is the possibility of exploding in the opponents face out of nowhere. As if you are just waiting hidden behind a bush for a guy to come along so you can jump out and jizzle your deck in his face, running away cheering.
I mean seriously this deck is so well built together. The synergies between lakey/vial + matron/ringleader is just soo good and gamewinning that it's already a must play. The Instigator even supports this in my opinion for him having just to connect ONCE to be able to win the game. Even if he costs 1 more you totally should play this sucker, because you have the vial. It enables him, and makes him still playable.
Also it is a blessing that he costs 2 mana, since you can split him now with the piledriver number (which is one of the weakest gobs the deck plays). I would certainly go for something like 2-3 while playing 3-3 lord constellation.
Even if it now is possible to go for Goblinlord.dec, I just wouldn't do it, because you would throw away the things that made goblin the deck.

So why change a running system?
Why not adapt it, if you are given the opportunity?

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Originally Posted by Jayzonious

I see a problem with cutting 3 Piledrivers for Stingscourgers or Reckless Charge. Piledriver is our ridiculously efficient damage dealer. We still have to get the opponent to zero life to win the game. Piledriver is one of our biggest threats, and it has the potential to make that happen very quickly.

Simian Spirit Guide seems like an interesting idea. I still feel that Chrome Mox is superior to that and Gemstone Caverns. I like the idea of having the extra first turn mana but still think Chrome Mox does a better job than either of these cards. Goblins have the draw engines to make up for the card disadvantage. Drawing multiple Chrome Mox or drawing it late game sucks, so I think three is the correct number to run.

As for Reckless Charge having tricks with Lackey, I don't really see any collaboration between those two cards.

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Piledriver is an efficient damage source (as long as he has company). However, I think a single connection with WI will probably result in more damage than a connection with Piledriver. So I've basically replaced piledriver with WI. Also, stingscourger allows lackey and WI to connect, I think playing 4 is probably correct.
The reason I went with SSG over Mox is that Mox requires 2 cards for the mana boost you get from a single guide. Yes I know that mox continues to be useful after the initial turn it is played however with instigator a single connection puts you quite a ways ahead so a single turn mana boost is quite important as is having cards in hand to play when he connects.

Reckless charge allows for turn one connections with Lackey as well as a small chance of turn one instigator connections (don't tell me that isn't sexy). It also allows you to go turn 1 vial, turn two vial in lackey and charge. Attacking with lackey is more powerful the earlier it can happen, this is why charge and lackey work together.

I'm not saying that I'm right on all of this, but I like the discussion of these alternatives.

Other card with potention from Zendikar:

Mindbreak Trap: an efficient answer to combo, could replace or be played in addition to Chalice in the sideboard.

Probably not playable, but Quest for the Gravelord could be a sideboard option to answer decks with Plague or tons of removal especially alongside War Marshall.

Goblin Ruinblaster is a very realistic sideboard option against decks like Landstill. There is a chance they are going to replace the Anarchies in my sideboard but probably not since I need the Anarchies against Enchantress which runs way too many basics for Ruinblaster to be effective.

Replacing any Goblin from the core team is madness. With Instigator the new team should be:
4 Vial
4 Lackey

4 Piledriver
4 Instigator

4 Warchief
4 Matron

4 Ringleader

20 Lands

That leaves 12 costumizable slots

Contenders are:

Goblin Chieftain
Siege-Gang Commander
Warren Weirding
Gempalm Incinerator
Stingscourger
additional Lands

Plus some one-offs

I havent played goblins in some time and have tossed my mono red list back together. Comments are welcome.

4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
7 Mountain

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
3 Siege Gang Commander
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Aether Vial
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Stingscourger

SB:
1 Vexing Shusher
4 Relic of Progentitus
1 Goblin King
1 Goblin Tinkerer
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Anarchy

There is alot of landstill normally in my meta, so the anarchy is there to handle moat/humility schennanigans along with Elspeth.

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Originally Posted by Joe_C

4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
7 Mountain

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
3 Siege Gang Commander
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Aether Vial
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Stingscourger

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Hey, my 2 cents about your list.
The lifeloss and the stifle issue are really unnecessary, when you can just play basics. The thinning effect is really too little for you to benefit. Just believe me, we did the math.
Fanatics are quite a weird choice in the current meta. I guess that if your meta is full of Confidants, Noble Hierarcs, etc, they might be worth it. If it's only for smoothing out the curve, I'd not play the full set, 2 are probably enough. Stingscourger on the other hand is a great tempo tool to bring you into the midgame, where your draw engine starts to work and you gain advantage against those pesky goyfs. You might want to play Mogg War Marshall if you don't want to play more Scourgers, they buy time too.

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Originally Posted by GreenOne

Hey, my 2 cents about your list.
The lifeloss and the stifle issue are really unnecessary, when you can just play basics. The thinning effect is really too little for you to benefit. Just believe me, we did the math.
Fanatics are quite a weird choice in the current meta. I guess that if your meta is full of Confidants, Noble Hierarcs, etc, they might be worth it. If it's only for smoothing out the curve, I'd not play the full set, 2 are probably enough. Stingscourger on the other hand is a great tempo tool to bring you into the midgame, where your draw engine starts to work and you gain advantage against those pesky goyfs. You might want to play Mogg War Marshall if you don't want to play more Scourgers, they buy time too.

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I had considered dropping the fetches, since I am playing mono red. Fanatic isnt as shitty as everyone thinks, it can still chump and deal 1 to the opponent. And zoo/sligh are growing in popularity around me so they are still good against lavamancer and can assist in naililng a creature when you cycle incinerator. I may -1 fanatic +1 stingscourger. What are the thoughts on maindeck artifact hate nowadays? Is tinkerer needed at all?

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Originally Posted by Joe_C

I had considered dropping the fetches, since I am playing mono red. Fanatic isnt as shitty as everyone thinks, it can still chump and deal 1 to the opponent. And zoo/sligh are growing in popularity around me so they are still good against lavamancer and can assist in naililng a creature when you cycle incinerator. I may -1 fanatic +1 stingscourger. What are the thoughts on maindeck artifact hate nowadays? Is tinkerer needed at all?

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Tinkerer is usually good only if you play it in multiples, due to the lack of haste. Even with Chieftain in the deck i finally decided to throw it out the MD.
I'd play this list:
// Lands
15 [7E] Mountain (1)
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [MM] Rishadan Port

// Creatures
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
2 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [US] Goblin Matron
2 [PLC] Stingscourger
6 open slots

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial

And fill the open slots with War Marshalls, Chieftains and Fanatics.

Consider that, after a bit of testing, Instigator is probably joining the team when it's out.

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Originally Posted by Mantis

Goblin Ruinblaster is a very realistic sideboard option against decks like Landstill. There is a chance they are going to replace the Anarchies in my sideboard but probably not since I need the Anarchies against Enchantress which runs way too many basics for Ruinblaster to be effective.

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See: Goblin Settler. I played this as a one-of in my SB for a while when tabernacle was more prevalent in my metagame. IMO Settler >>> Ruinblaster, as he can hit basics and doesn't suck though the vial, while only requiring one red mana, the extra power doesn't make up for the many downsides.

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Originally Posted by Media314r8

See: Goblin Settler. I played this as a one-of in my SB for a while when tabernacle was more prevalent in my metagame. IMO Settler >>> Ruinblaster, as he can hit basics and doesn't suck though the vial, while only requiring one red mana, the extra power doesn't make up for the many downsides.

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Just to throw the topic for a loop.. What does everyone think of Mindbreak Trap. I know it's specific to storm combo but still. Will the pure existence of the card simply deem storm combo unplayable anyways?