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I go between 23 and 24 lands, but all of my Landstill lists still run Counterbalance/Top (U/w, U/W/g and U/b/g). It's so damn good against against so much that gives Landstill a hard time (mainly, burn, storm and other fast decks that have spells clumped at 1-2 cmc; though it sucks vs. dredge), but I don't feel the need to post about it these days.Quote:
Originally Posted by rsaunder
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I love how it said that it's directed towards everybody except Moss. Taco, Bardo and I were totally the ones to originally bring up the concept. Especially Bardo. But w/e.
Anti-American, I remember that. Back when you suggested CounterTop in Threshold and no one would listen at first. You suggested it to me in UWb Fish and I wouldn't listen either, but that was only because UWb Fish was so mana hungry on playing creatures that it didn't really fit well. Of course, UWb Fish has been obsoleted for a long time anyway.Quote:
Way back, with that like UWg build. It was an interesting deck, but it really died out for a while. Like the last year.
However, I do not remember you advocating it in Landstill. Not to say that you didn't, cause I'm sure you did, I just didn't keep up with the Landstill thread back then.
However, I thought me and Bardo both came up with the idea around the same time, quite a while back, where Bardo went UGb with Goyfs, and I went UWg for Grips side. Of course, that list back then was not as refined as this list now. That, and I wouldn't play 3c anymore.
I remember you supporting my post when I posted the UWg Counterbalance version a long while back. You just don't actively post on this thread enough. ;)Quote:
I go between 23 and 24 lands, but all of my Landstill lists still run Counterbalance/Top (U/w, U/W/g and U/b/g). It's so damn good against against so much that gives Landstill a hard time (mainly, burn, storm and other fast decks that have spells clumped at 1-2 cmc; though it sucks vs. dredge), but I don't feel the need to post about it these days.
So, you don't post and let me suffer the wrath of 95% of the Landstill thread? lol j/k
That build was a lot more aggressive though. Every build I saw (and tested) ran goyf and nantuko monastery. These bad boys got replaced by MD elspeth (for me at least) though, and she doesn't fit into the curve for CB as well. Right now I'm awfully happy with the build I'm running, with vindicates and spell snare MB. I'm making this choice because altering the curve to support CB MB to the point where it becomes an asset (i.e. 12+ 2-drops) messes so much with my current build; I'd have to lose vindicate and drop FoF, which I feel are two of the strongest options my build gives.
I do run CB in the board, but it serves a different purpose. It's there for burn (not zoo, generally) and combo. It comes in in other matchups as well, but not as a primary plan, more of a "well, if I get a 1-sided-chalice-at-one that'll be sweet, but my main plan is better since they'll be boarding grips." It's an interesting card to be sure, but for the time I'm keeping it in the board because I feel that gives me the strongest MB options.
I'm not questioning the legitimacy of your playtesting at all or the ammount of time so much. I'm questioning the legitimacy of your Results against matchups/ actual tournament results.Quote:
Playtesting comments/ legitimacy
You keep mentioning how if you take out vial in the equation of said aggro matchup it becomes alot easier (if you force, etc.) Obviously if you take the single best anti-control card out of the equation then all of a sudden the matchups you face are going to substantially change. Now keep in mind that most match-ups that are played with vial are won and lost based on how well the opponent can either deal with vial or die from it. The reality? You have 2 oblivian ring and 4 force to stop it main deck and a post board where you add in 2 additional rings and a wrath. This isn't substantially changing any aggro match-up you face.
Also mentioned in here was D-Stompy. This deck is virtually an auto-bye for most landstill variants color intensive on the black splash or not. Dragon Stompy has been proven over and over again to be a glass-cannon so bringing it up really makes no sense or difference in regards to such a favorable match-up.
The only reason I actually question your testing is because your playing cards that are generally just (fair) and actually very answerable. Cards like Oblivian ring and counterbalance when left unprotected are treated as soft locks and generally not fantastic answers. Only when counterbalance is diluted with an aggro control shell has it been proven to actually be successful. Even ITF is more an aggro control deck then a pure control deck. Also just to mention your ugb brainstorming is basically Team Canada made by Team Spod, most notably DIF. You should consider checking into that. I believe it's in the tournament report page of one of their last few tourneys.Quote:
Discrediting you
No. The reason I don't agree with counterbalance in the main-deck is because its just an improvement on decks that normal counterbalance based control already beats. While it does improve some match-ups it also hozes so many more matchups where counterbalance really isn't an issue; and because your not nearly as consistent at hitting you numbers or answers as say threshhold is I think you really arn't seeing the real picture. Landstill is not as a whole cannot be as redundant as decks like threshhold or dreadstill are which makes counterbalance less good and more dependant on cards that actually do something. Making Oblivian ring less efficient and more just another 3 drop that doesnt do enough. This list goes on and on.Quote:
Just because you've used Counterbalance in the sideboard, or have tried it in the past, does not change the fact that you haven't used it in the shell I'm using it in. This may be a reason why your perception of it is slightly different than mine.
Also going this route you cut the second best removal in the format (EE) which is virtually the backbone of why land still wins so many of it's match-ups with semi inevitability with Academy Ruins. My perception may be different but i've played my fair share of counterbalance in the main decks of land-still before. I've also tested thresh models extensively and White splash thresh for future reference is my pet deck, which is why I just generally disagree with your testing information, as aggro control handles vial a lot better then control handles it and even in those match ups it causes stress for those decks that actually have the correct efficient answers.
because you have none. You've been testing this deck against the meta-game for six months yet you have few answers to common questions that are going to be stresses to the arch type as a whole. You have cut ee, upped the slow removal count: and yet because you run counterbalance: practically bleed that it does enough to rip the aggro match ups in this current meta to be a successful sub arch type. Well i'm sorry Mr. Magoo but i'm calling your bluff on this one. I've done the same testing as you with a much stronger aggressive game-plan oriented deck against the same aggro decks and i've come up short. I don't see how you with a much more reactive game and slightly less efficient are coming up with better results.Quote:
Tournament results
No but actually testing against pilots who know their perspective decks at the top tables and winning against them versus sleev-ing up and battling over a kitchen/ local FNM table makes a world of difference. Include m.w.s testing in this kitchen table category.Quote:
The difference between experience and ideology does not have to directly corrolate to tournaments.
Here in lies the problem. Aggro loam is favorable and burn is 40-50 % based on side-boarding and burn main deck differences. These match ups are roughly favorable anyways.Quote:
When Landstill can consistently 2-0 matchups like Aggro Loam and Burn against various opponent's, it must be more than simply "I got lucky" or "my competition doesn't know what the hell they are doing."
Tell this to Alan Iverson, (comedy drum roll pause)Quote:
Think in terms of sports for a second; playtesting is to practice as tournaments are to the game. You don't get better at the sport only when playing in the game, you get better at the sport by going to lots of practices.
Remember these words for your upcomming testing. Don't forget what you said here.Quote:
I fail to see how Merfolk now becomes punted, considering I do very well against Merfolk. Counterbalance itself doesn't hit two of their lords and Wakethrasher if they run it, but it hits everything else. The only foil is Vial, which is typically a must counter or must O Ring preboard, and of course postboard there are more answers. I'll address this matchup more in the primer.
fyi counterbalance should be sweet in the d stompy match up once resolved. Once you lock it on 3-4 your basicly winning. Though I would imagine your stompy matchup is still tough as you dont have ee for challice and you run more fetches the most people in the landstill thread.Quote:
Goblins preboard is not improved by Counterbalance. There are a few targets for it, but for the most part they are bundled up at the 3cc spot. However, the U/W manabase that I run makes up for my deficencies in many of the matchups where Counterbalance isn't so hot, like Goblins and Dragon Stompy, which does in fact improve those matchups.
Thats the point, it doesn't consistently. Especially with the newest additions to the goblin arsenol, namely chieften and quite possible instigator. These cards are going to make it rediculously tough to handle goblins along with siege gang and ringleader. Ringleader used to be the real backbone in the deck, but no longer.Quote:
Again, Vial is something you want to answer quickly. Otherwise, the deck has enough removal and Decree/Elspeth to handle Goblins.
fyi tempo thresh is largely a favorable match up already. Also you keep mentioning this simply amazing manabase that you run of 2 additional fetches and 2 less duals with 0 land disruption and 1 additional island. This isn't more stable. It's possibly statistically more efficient but you forget that stifle is a major part of this format is blue and most of it is blue aggro control decks which most good ones happen to pack stifle. This is actually the entire reason why decks don't go nuts on the fetches anymore (besides perhaps zoo) Keep in mind that you also are still susceptible to wasteland as you run 8 non-basics so your deffinately not anywhere near out of the water, you just changed your poisons. Personally i'd rather lose a land to wasteland then to stifle, but thats just me :)Quote:
I 100% disagree with you about Threshold. I rape Threshold. Countless amount of times does this happen.
Tempo Thresh is improved by the U/W manabase and their low threat density is met by a large number of removal spells.
No but they plan on playing counterbalance and rhox? How does this make any sense at all?Quote:
Decks like Thresh and Dreadstill don't run Counterspell because they curve out early and don't intend on hitting enough land drops or sitting back to be able to have UU open to cast Counterspell.
because those decks are made to combat the other aggro control decks and combo decks much better then we can. Daze is universally not a counter for landstill because the idea of landstill is not that daze isn't a control card (it was played in Tog and remains one of the best tempo hozers in the game.) It's because the core of landstill forces it to not miss land drops. This is why cards that reduce the chances of you missing land-drops are amazing in landstill. It's not that your winning games on the back of counterbalance. It's that counterbalance is allowing you additional time to stall out games until you hit the later game. While that is exceptional in matchups that don't have a primary focus such as aggro loam or even pikula, or rock, in landstill the primary focus is to make it to turn four. Once you make it to turn four and hit your fourth land drop the game is substantially in your favor against a good portion of the current format. Against other decks like burn or combo this is not true and this is why im saying its a sideboard card. Its good in some matchups but its not relivent enough against the majority of the format (which ive tested against.)Quote:
That's why Daze is good here. Flip this around for a moment; if Daze is so good in those decks, why don't we run it?
Don't try to compare why Counterspell is good/bad in Landstill to why it's good/bad in Threshold; that's comparing apples to oranges, not apples to apples. That is absolutely a piss pour argument.
White thresh older (2-3 months) ran a single highlander counter spell so it's not exactly apples to oranges and the same principle philosophy belongs to the control shell of both decks. Stop the opponent from doing crazy shit and procede to do what your deck does best, ala control. It's more like aggressive strategy versus reactive strategy. And at the end of the day I guess you could say my play is more aggresive then yours and I don't need to play a counter wall with 15 counters and 2 threats. FYI your threats arn't inevitable like they were back when MUC was good, and the format knows it. Which makes your attempt at overcontrolling the format/matchups even more awkward.
Which is why traditional designs failed and the deck practicly died. Thank god someone got some common sense to update the damn thing. Otherwise we'd all be playing countertop thresh. O wait, most of us already do.Quote:
You can compare my Counterspell to Thresh's Tarmogoyf all you want. Landstill is designed as a reactive deck, not a proactive one.
no we play stp because its the best removal spell in the format, we don't play goyf because we can't abuse it like a control shell can with even more redundancy than we can possibly contribute to said idea of a perfect 75.Quote:
That's why we have Counterspell for that Goyf, but that's also why we have Swords to Plowshares for that Goyf.
Im not even going to get into this. Im just going to say that I personally believe that if threshhold gets counterbalance rolling, its better then if you can do it. Your answers are few, and you dont run EE.Quote:
Counter argument
Also this 2cc argument. you run 4 counterspell 4 standstill and 4 counterbalance. Thats 12 2cc spells. I run 5, sometimes less but generally 5. Don't tell me your not substantially more resiliant to spell snare or daze. your hardly ever going to play a matchup where you dont play against mix of daze snare stifle and wasteland, some matchups run all of those cards, and all of those cards give you problems. also just nuetralize force because they run it as well so the chances are approximately equal.
Gustha do you mind answering this for me. I've been responding for 2 hours now and im just trying to get through this.Quote:
I fail to see how 2cc drops are worse than 3cc drops like Cunning Wish and Vindicate or 4cc drops like Elspeth and WoG.
Ill answer the rest of this when i have more time.
-Moss
Oh my god get to the point. Both of you.
Why are you using your fetch on your turn one, on the draw against tempo thresh? If you have no play, don't crack it. If you are playing a list with Tops and want to cast Top turn one use another land, so you don't get blown out by a Stifle and you still have the fetch for possible reshuffles. They will rarely tap out on their second turn for Goyf if all you did turn one was fetchland, pass. If they do, that gives you a window for activating fetches and casting Swords without fear of Stifle and Daze on your next turn. Also, turn one Brainstorm is terrible most of the time.Quote:
You're playing either 3c or 4c Landstill and your opponent is playing Canadian Thresh. Your opponent goes first and plays a Tropical Island and passes the turn. On your turn, you play a fetchland which is met by Stifle (you play the fetchland because all you have are nonbasic lands in hand, whether duals or colorless producers).
I had a list very similar to yours which I threw together after I saw your list waayy back in this thread, but I had Explosives in it. It was ok, but a resolved Aether Vial made me want to throw my deck across the room, since I only had three ways to kill it. It blanked so many cards in my deck and put me way too far behind.Quote:
Honestly, how many players saying no to Counterbalance actually tested my exact decklist, and how many playtested it in their 3c and 4c lists?
Hanni, do you really need the 4 Mage in the board when you have eight hard-counters to deal with random stuff? (Armageddon from stax, for example)
It was just a hypothetical example of the tempo they generate vs us, not what the actual optimal play would have been in that situation. I came up with those plays off the top of my head, since tempo generation by them was similar to that in my small test sample with my UGb Intuition Loam deck vs Canadian Thresh. I'm not accounting bluffing Daze or anything like that into this scenario, just pointing out the power level of Canadian Thresh (and like variants, ala Merfolk) against a 3c control decks manabase and spell curve.Quote:
Why are you using your fetch on your turn one, on the draw against tempo thresh? If you have no play, don't crack it. If you are playing a list with Tops and want to cast Top turn one use another land, so you don't get blown out by a Stifle and you still have the fetch for possible reshuffles. They will rarely tap out on their second turn for Goyf if all you did turn one was fetchland, pass. If they do, that gives you a window for activating fetches and casting Swords without fear of Stifle and Daze on your next turn. Also, turn one Brainstorm is terrible most of the time.
The lack of answers to Vial with my deck isn't really as bad as it seems. How many answers is everyone else running, 2 EE and 2 Vindicate? EE is obviously a little better against Vial than O Ring is, but it's not ZOMGZ better, and Vindicates WB manacost seems like it would be difficult to cast to blow up Vial against Wastes/Ports or Wastes/Stifles/Dazes (and possibly Cursecatcher's). I like O Ring in my deck, and I think being 2c + O Ring > the loss of EE and Vindicate, but hey, that's just me. But then again, I wouldn't advise running Counterbalance in anything other than 2c, so it's a trade of power: would you accept a slightly weaker removal package for a more stable manabase and the awesomesauce that is Counterbalance?Quote:
I had a list very similar to yours which I threw together after I saw your list waayy back in this thread, but I had Explosives in it. It was ok, but a resolved Aether Vial made me want to throw my deck across the room, since I only had three ways to kill it. It blanked so many cards in my deck and put me way too far behind.
Hanni, do you really need the 4 Mage in the board when you have eight hard-counters to deal with random stuff? (Armageddon from stax, for example)
Vial is a fairly big problem to deal with, since it nullifies much of our countermagic (when they aren't hardcasting any guys). As far as mana ramp, it takes them a few turns for them to get going, so I actually prefer to see Vial starts over something like an unanswered Lackey start (where they often race you before you can stabilize). It means I have enough time to dig (for WoG) & ramp (mana) for WoG, whether that's through Stifle/Waste/Daze (and possibly Cursecatcher) or Waste/Port. If they ramp Vial and unload a bunch of guys, you're going to take some damage but more often than not, not lethal. Once you WoG, you buy yourself alot of time to find more removal or drop an Elspeth, from my experience. Vial is a problem, but by no means is a resolved Vial, that goes unanswered, game over. At least not from my "illegitimate" experience.
Mage answers alot of randomness, despite the irony in that. Predicted randomness anyway... what I mean is, decks that you know about, but matchups you wouldn't expect Mage to come in for.
Mage comes in against Burn, Ichorid, and Combo to name the most popular matchups I bring him in against. I've already stated why and how I bring them in for Ichorid like 3 times in the last 2 pages so I won't repeat it, and I just mentioned Burn too, but I left combo out. That should be a no brainer, but basically it adds an additional clock (this point is relevant) while temporarily and additionally disrupting their gameplan so they simply cannot do shit against you. Being blue and 2cc makes him a very relevant sideboard card to bring in against some other matchups as well, because of the importance of blue spells to pitch to FoW, and additional 2cc spells for the Counterbalance curve (like Burn and Combo, Goyf Sligh, etc).
Also, against certain key spells, Mage can be useful. For example, doing what CounterTop can do against Aggro Loam by naming Loam, though I don't board Mage in because they run alot of removal and I plan on casting WoG as often as I need to. Bad example maybe, but you get the point.
Relentless Rats? I have Meddling Mage! lol...
It's also strong against opposing Control decks; typically, my mass removal is bad against them, so I board out WoG's, and they almost always have a few spells I'd really like to not see played. He's not as great as Gaddock Teeg against Control, but wait... Teeg shuts us down anyway. Plus his little 2/2 clock, combined with Factories, do add up.
@ Mossivo
I really wanted to reply to your post tonight, but it's probably going to take me like 3 hours so I'll have to wait till tomorrow. I definitely appreciate you engaging me in detailed conversation about this. I promise it will be worth your time to do so. Thanks again.
Yeah.... so did Threshold. Have you seen how many people took Mongeese out of CB Thresh?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
I've been advocating for them in the sideboard. Still, post board games are 66% of a game. Having Counterbalance just helps.Quote:
However, I do not remember you advocating it in Landstill. Not to say that you didn't, cause I'm sure you did, I just didn't keep up with the Landstill thread back then.
It's still an alright list. Having access to Krosan Grips is still a strong option for the deck to have.Quote:
However, I thought me and Bardo both came up with the idea around the same time, quite a while back, where Bardo went UGb with Goyfs, and I went UWg for Grips side. Of course, that list back then was not as refined as this list now. That, and I wouldn't play 3c anymore.
I still posted. :)Quote:
I remember you supporting my post when I posted the UWg Counterbalance version a long while back. You just don't actively post on this thread enough. ;)
You don't need to read the Landstill thread if you know and tested long Landstill long enough.Quote:
So, you don't post and let me suffer the wrath of 95% of the Landstill thread? lol j/k
I have to jump right on in with this conversation about counterbalance landstill...
The addition of counterbalance totally changes how the deck plays compared to other landstill decks...
I'll go over a few key differences about how the deck can play, as well as how different the MUs are...
1. Sensei's divining top...
This card allows us to go into overdrive control mode... when you finally run your opponent out of gas, you get to either draw the lands you want OR the control you want when you need it... It also makes a resolved standstill much more dangerous for an opponent (making landdrops until they break it is unbelievable)... Also... i have had situations where (against another control deck) I was able to force them into breaking my standstill and picking what i got to draw from it (fetch + top).
2.
With the simplicity of the deck (running 4 counterspell, 4 force of will, AND counterbalance), you run so much countermagic, even the best of opponents wont be able to resolve the cards they want to past turns 3-4... because you not only have the soft lock of counterbalance, you also have 8 hard counters (thresh only runs 4).... this puts you waaay ahead of anyone who wants to fight a counter war.
3.
Counterbalance itself:
Helps in several horrible MUs:
1. burn/zoo
- Being able to shut them down with one card and actually stabilizing is a pure miracle for regualr landstill (either running wish MD... or simply losing because of the burn)... this card makes the MU Imposible to win FOR THEM... it changes a horrible MU into a fantastic MU... Anyways... lets move on to some others:
2. combo
-lets be totally honest... regular landstill gets pooped on by quicker combo every day... even the early countermagic only prevents the inevitable in this MU... BUT what if you had a card to lock them entirely out of the game, and therefore put them into an unwinnable situation... IF ONLY there were a card out there... OH YEAH! Counterbalance. This and some cards in the board can allow you so much hate towards a combo deck, it becomes their worst nightmare.
3. Agro loam
- A good agro loam pilot walks over a good landstill pilot any day of the week... whether its just their ability to rape the landbase (wasteland/loam or just devastating dreams)... or they just spit out a crapton of threats/ get a lot of CA (loam/dark confidant/crusher)... Landstill can only do so much against the recursive nature of the deck (witness sometimes, stronghold and loam primarily... also the wish board can get annoying)...
COUNTERBALANCE and top both change this MU... allowing you to dig more than traditional landstill builds (top) to find solutions, or shutting down a large portion of their cards (counterbalance @2), and then allowing you to find ways to deal with the few and far in between threats... This MU is actually much different than it was for regular landstill.
I wont even talk about what this card does to the mirror... its sad really.
There are a few more decks I could list, but i think you guys probably get the point.
Honestly... I was skeptical of his list too... until he convinced me to actually try it.
This is the best deck in the format, you just need to learn how to play it, and test it for yourselves... and you will see that we speak the truth.
I put CounterTop in my Landstill build a while ago. Eventually, I tried Predict in place of Standstill, and I really like it.
You almost always know what's coming next, thanks to Brainstorm, Counterbalance, Top (and even Academy Ruins). You net one card with Predict instead of two, but you're still digging three cards deep, and it's easy to dump redundant Tops and Counterbalances from the top of the library.
Also, you can play Predict in an unfavorable board position, or at the end of an opponent's turn. And sometimes you'll take an opponent's Enlightened Tutor by surprise.
Why NOW are people starting to talk about Counter-Top in a Landstill deck? Why not before? What has changed since a year ago?
I would have figured most decks would have implemented Counter-Top if they were running blue.
Well, it's seven or eight slots, so there's a certain amount of commitment there that might not be appropriate for everything with blue. For example, CounterTop would dilute Merfolk's game plan.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
Personally, I don't see CounterTop as belonging in Landstill. Don't get me wrong, it can be successful and fun to play; but I think that once you have both Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top, then Predict becomes marginally better than Standstill, and then it's no longer a Landstill deck.
I think people are exaggerating countertop's power in landstill, especially against combo. Against them it's a 2-card combo, which doesn't provide a hard lock, especially post-board. By it's self, CB's really not that powerful. The more I work with the incarnation of the deck I'm playing, the more I'm starting to feel Geoff's style would shine. I'm not ready to run less than 2 top, but I'm going to be doing some work with hate-bears out of the board and see how the clock affects the AdN matchup.
I'm not the best combo player as I've just started getting into it, but I know I am much more annoyed by Meddling Mage on Tendrils than anything else. It is possible to play around Counterbalance+Top. Leading out with a Silence/Chant, I hope you have to flip Top to counter it. If you do, I can cast a bunch of Rituals in response and have enough mana to just win. With Meddling Mage online, I have to answer it before I can win and it makes how I win much more specific (as Ad-Nauseum is less good after taking some blows to the face).Quote:
Originally Posted by rsaunder
That's just my personal feeling on the Counterbalance argument for the combo match-up.
I think MM on ToA is worse than Gaddock Teeg. Seriously, I can kill you with either EtW or with ToA. A MM on ToA alone doesn't solve the problem. Teeg solves both. but then again, you would need a MM on Burning Wish, to lock the combo player completely out of the game.
But even then, some people will tutor up for their Grapeshot or a bounce.
Teeg sounds like a terrible idea in a deck where it shuts off the strongest parts of its draw engine, some of the counter suite, and EE. Not many people splash green either. If I were going the hate-bear route it would probably be with 3 Earthsworn cannonist and 3 MM.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nidd
I run CB/Top MD, MM SB, so I get the best of both worlds.
Mossivo, I'll be responding to your last post in just a few minutes.
OMFG, I just spent 2 hours typing out a reply to Mossivo, and when I clicked on post, it came out with 0 words. WTF?!
Don't tell me I have to write that whole thing out again...
EDIT: Well, this post isn't as detailed as it was the first time, but since this is the second time I had to reply to it, I took alot of shortcuts on my responses.
First, I want to post what I think is your latest list, Mossivo, so that I have something to cross-reference to:
4 flooded strand
2 Marsh Flats
4 Tundra
1 und sea
1 scrub
3 island
3 plains
3 mishra
1 dustbowl
1 academy ruins
4 force
4 snare
2 c.s
3 top
3 standstill
3 brainstorm
4 stp
3 ee
2 wrath
1 humility
1 path
1 disk
3 decree
2 elspeth
2 cunning wish
sb:
1 pulse
1 pate
1 ray of dist
1 e tutor
2 path
2 relic
3 EP
3 CB
1 cow
I don’t have tournament results because I cannot play in tournaments. If this is a problem for you, there is nothing that I can do.Quote:
I'm not questioning the legitimacy of your playtesting at all or the ammount of time so much. I'm questioning the legitimacy of your Results against matchups/ actual tournament results.
Most of the time when I lose to Goblins, it’s because I didn’t have an answer to turn 1 Lackey and they raced me. The other times that I lose are when they Matron/Ringleader/Wort into card advantage so that they overpower my Wrath of God’s. I’m not worried about the mana ramp on Vial; the only reason why it’s a problem for me is cause it shuts off some of my countermagic (they will still hardcast stuff) and Standstill. I run 2 Oblivion Ring, you run 3 EE. Not a signifcant difference, IMO.Quote:
You keep mentioning how if you take out vial in the equation of said aggro matchup it becomes alot easier (if you force, etc.) Obviously if you take the single best anti-control card out of the equation then all of a sudden the matchups you face are going to substantially change. Now keep in mind that most match-ups that are played with vial are won and lost based on how well the opponent can either deal with vial or die from it. The reality? You have 2 oblivian ring and 4 force to stop it main deck and a post board where you add in 2 additional rings and a wrath. This isn't substantially changing any aggro match-up you face.
Also mentioned in here was D-Stompy. This deck is virtually an auto-bye for most landstill variants color intensive on the black splash or not. Dragon Stompy has been proven over and over again to be a glass-cannon so bringing it up really makes no sense or difference in regards to such a favorable match-up.
Postboard, you’re all wrong. I gain 4 Blue Elemental Blast and 2 Path to Exile, giving me a total of 10 1cc spot removal spells, and my Goblins matchup becomes considerably better. They can’t keep a guy in play, I drop Elspeth, I win.
I still fail to see you how you have a significantly better Goblins matchup than me. You probably have a better game one because of Humility/Decree, but postboard, your Plagues are going to be difficult to cast through their Waste/Port when you only run 6 fetchlands and 2 dual lands that produce black, with less than 4/4 Brainstorm/Top to dig.
Maybe Dragon Stompy is an autoloss for you, but not for me. I care little about their Moon effects since I can kill Magus and even with the enchantment on board, I can still play through it. They run Chalice/Trini as their only other disruption, and a bunch of big guys that I run a ton of removal for. Preboard is probably 50/50… if they get a nuts draw I lose, if they don’t, I win. Postboard, the matchup gets a lot better.
How are my cards any less fair or any less answerable than yours? How are my answers any less fantastic than yours? Just because control decks don’t have tournament results to prove that they work with Counterbalance doesn’t mean they don’t, it means not enough (if anyone) is playing them for results to be proven. Why would a slow control card [Counterbalance] be good in aggro/control [Threshold] but not good in a slow control deck [Landstill]? None of the reasons you've given me make any sense. ITF is more of an aggro/control deck than we are? Come on now. That deck is slow as hell, Goyf or not. We’re more aggro/control than they are with 4 Factory and 2 Elspeth, if anything.Quote:
The only reason I actually question your testing is because your playing cards that are generally just (fair) and actually very answerable. Cards like Oblivian ring and counterbalance when left unprotected are treated as soft locks and generally not fantastic answers. Only when counterbalance is diluted with an aggro control shell has it been proven to actually be successful. Even ITF is more an aggro control deck then a pure control deck. Also just to mention your ugb brainstorming is basically Team Canada made by Team Spod, most notably DIF. You should consider checking into that. I believe it's in the tournament report page of one of their last few tourneys.
So running Counterbalance improves matchups against decks that Counterbalance beats? Huh?Quote:
No. The reason I don't agree with counterbalance in the main-deck is because its just an improvement on decks that normal counterbalance based control already beats. While it does improve some match-ups it also hozes so many more matchups where counterbalance really isn't an issue; and because your not nearly as consistent at hitting you numbers or answers as say threshhold is I think you really arn't seeing the real picture. Landstill is not as a whole cannot be as redundant as decks like threshhold or dreadstill are which makes counterbalance less good and more dependant on cards that actually do something. Making Oblivian ring less efficient and more just another 3 drop that doesnt do enough. This list goes on and on.
Also going this route you cut the second best removal in the format (EE) which is virtually the backbone of why land still wins so many of it's match-ups with semi inevitability with Academy Ruins. My perception may be different but i've played my fair share of counterbalance in the main decks of land-still before. I've also tested thresh models extensively and White splash thresh for future reference is my pet deck, which is why I just generally disagree with your testing information, as aggro control handles vial a lot better then control handles it and even in those match ups it causes stress for those decks that actually have the correct efficient answers.
So running Counterbalance improves some matchups and hoses some other ones? Isn’t that what I’ve been saying? I don’t understand what you’re getting at.
How am I any less consistent or redundant than Threshold? They run 4 extra cantrips, I run 4 Standstills. I’m also running a ton of 4-of’s, all of which do something similar to the other cards I’m running, like having 12 countermagic spells and 9 removal spells. You’re not making any sense. I don’t even get the last part of your paragraph, either.
I disagree with you. I don’t think that EE is the second best removal spell in the format. Also, if you’re winning a lot of matchups with RuinsEE lock, you might be doing something wrong. You run 1 Ruins and absolutely no way to tutor for it. You should be winning most games before this lock occurs. Both RuinsEE lock and CounterTop lock are both disruptable, but I’d rather win with a CounterTop lock than a RuinsEE lock.
White Threshold does answer Vial better, with Qasali Pridemage and/or Trygon Predator maindeck. So what you are saying is that Vial alone makes Counterbalance obsolete in every deck besides white Threshold? I disagree.
I don’t have tournament results because I cannot play in tournaments. If this matters that much to you, and tosses so much of my credibility out of the window for you, why are you bothering to play this objection/rebuttal process with me then?Quote:
because you have none. You've been testing this deck against the meta-game for six months yet you have few answers to common questions that are going to be stresses to the arch type as a whole. You have cut ee, upped the slow removal count: and yet because you run counterbalance: practically bleed that it does enough to rip the aggro match ups in this current meta to be a successful sub arch type. Well i'm sorry Mr. Magoo but i'm calling your bluff on this one. I've done the same testing as you with a much stronger aggressive game-plan oriented deck against the same aggro decks and i've come up short. I don't see how you with a much more reactive
game and slightly less efficient are coming up with better results.
I’ve cut EE and upped the slow removal? How is EE not slow removal? Oblivion Ring =/= EE. You run Nevinyrral’s Disk, how is that not slow removal? The only thing I see is 1 extra Path to Exile main in your deck in comparison to mine.
The metagame has become more of an aggro metagame lately, isn’t that supposed to be a good thing for us? Last time I checked, Landstill has a great aggro matchup.
Counterbalance does tear a lot of aggro matchups apart. Zoo and Goyf Sligh are directly affected. Tempo Thresh and CounterTop Thresh are also affected. The only matchups that are not significantly affected are the Vial based ones, and even against Merfolk, Counterbalance is still mediocre.
Regardless, I have a retarded amount of removal in my sideboard to bring in for games 2 and 3 against aggro.
If you think Aggro Loam is favorable, then I question your legitimacy. Aggro Loam is a horrible matchup for Landstill. I realize you run 3 CB/3 Top postboard to improve this, but even then, I don’t see you winning a 2/3 set against Aggro Loam more than you lose to it without running CB/Top in the main.Quote:
No but actually testing against pilots who know their perspective decks at the top tables and winning against them versus sleev-ing up and battling over a kitchen/ local FNM table makes a world of difference. Include m.w.s testing in this kitchen table category.
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When Landstill can consistently 2-0 matchups like Aggro Loam and Burn against various opponent's, it must be more than simply "I got lucky" or "my competition doesn't know what the hell they are doing."
Here in lies the problem. Aggro loam is favorable and burn is 40-50 % based on side-boarding and burn main deck differences. These match ups are roughly favorable anyways.
Against Burn, the only way you’re winning game one is if you draw into one of your two Cunning Wish’s and cast a Pulse before they kill you. Not only is that not going to happen often enough, you’re also going to have to get Pulse off before your dead. I’m not seeing you winning many g1’s against Burn. In games 2/3, you have 3 CB/Top, but even then, that’s still a crutch for you, and I don’t see you winning a 2/3 set more often than you lose a 2/3 set. The same goes for Goyf Sligh.
There are only 7 4cc spells for Counterbalance, so it’s difficult to get one on top. It’s not an ideal card here… but like almost every matchup, Counterbalance is never completely dead and has at least some use (i.e at least Mediocre against almost every matchup).Quote:
fyi counterbalance should be sweet in the d stompy match up once resolved. Once you lock it on 3-4 your basicly winning. Though I would imagine your stompy matchup is still tough as you dont have ee for challice and you run more fetches the most people in the landstill thread.
I don’t have EE for Chalice but I do have Oblivion Ring. I might run more fetchlands, but I also run more basics. I’m not really worried about their Moon effects.
I run 2 extra fetchlands but I run 1 extra basic, 1 less colorless land, and 2 less dual lands. I also run 1 extra Brainstorm and 1 extra Top. I may give up more susceptibility to Stifle, which may generate more tempo for them than more vulnerability to Wasteland, but that’s just a necessary evil. 8 fetchlands has more synergy with my Brainstorm/Top to not run them because a few decks run Stifle. Not all Landstill decks are running 6 basics like you are, anyway.Quote:
fyi tempo thresh is largely a favorable match up already. Also you keep mentioning this simply amazing manabase that you run of 2 additional fetches and 2 less duals with 0 land disruption and 1 additional island. This isn't more stable. It's possibly statistically more efficient but you forget that stifle is a major part of this format is blue and most of it is blue aggro control decks which most good ones happen to pack stifle. This is actually the entire reason why decks don't go nuts on the fetches anymore (besides perhaps zoo) Keep in mind that you also are still susceptible to wasteland as you run 8 non-basics so your deffinately not anywhere near out of the water, you just changed your poisons. Personally i'd rather lose a land to wasteland then to stifle, but thats just me :)
What I meant was that Thresh wants to constantly curve out early, playing creatures, Counterbalance, and cantrips. They don’t want to hold UU open to cast Counterspell. That’s why they run Daze instead of Counterspell.Quote:
No but they plan on playing counterbalance and rhox? How does this make any sense at all?
I agree, aggro/control has a better combo matchup. They have extra early disruption with Daze (for the turn 1 combo’s), and a faster clock. That doesn’t mean we don’t have a good combo matchup.Quote:
because those decks are made to combat the other aggro control decks and combo decks much better then we can. Daze is universally not a counter for landstill because the idea of landstill is not that daze isn't a control card (it was played in Tog and remains one of the best tempo hozers in the game.) It's because the core of landstill forces it to not miss land drops. This is why cards that reduce the chances of you missing land-drops are amazing in landstill. It's not that your winning games on the back of counterbalance. It's that counterbalance is allowing you additional time to stall out games until you hit the later game. While that is exceptional in matchups that don't have a primary focus such as aggro loam or even pikula, or rock, in landstill the primary focus is to make it to turn four. Once you make it to turn four and hit your fourth land drop the game is substantially in your favor against a good portion of the current format. Against other decks like burn or combo this is not true and this is why im saying its a sideboard card. Its good in some matchups but its not relivent enough against the majority of the format (which ive tested against.)
White thresh older (2-3 months) ran a single highlander counter spell so it's not exactly apples to oranges and the same principle philosophy belongs to the control shell of both decks. Stop the opponent from doing crazy shit and procede to do what your deck does best, ala control. It's more like aggressive strategy versus reactive strategy. And at the end of the day I guess you could say my play is more aggresive then yours and I don't need to play a counter wall with 15 counters and 2 threats. FYI your threats arn't inevitable like they were back when MUC was good, and the format knows it. Which makes your attempt at overcontrolling the format/matchups even more awkward.
You missed my point. I never said we should run Daze. You were saying that Counterspell was bad in Landstill by comparing Counterspell in Threshold, so I flipped the argument around and asked why we don’t run Daze since Threshold does.
I actually do win games on the back of Counterbalance. Sometimes I win with CounterTop lock, other games I win because I put them so far behind that they can’t come back.
Turn 4, or rather 4 lands in play, is our sweet spot, I agree. That doesn’t mean we automatically win every game that we get that far in, though.
You missed my point again. I never said we should play Goyf. I was explaining why you cannot compare Threshold’s Goyf’s to our Counterspells.Quote:
no we play stp because its the best removal spell in the format, we don't play goyf because we can't abuse it like a control shell can with even more redundancy than we can possibly contribute to said idea of a perfect 75.
How does Threshold use CounterTop better than I do? Most Threshold lists these days are using a similar 1cc/2cc curve, and how do they have more answers than me because I don’t run EE? I don’t understand what you mean.Quote:
Im not even going to get into this. Im just going to say that I personally believe that if threshhold gets counterbalance rolling, its better then if you can do it. Your answers are few, and you dont run EE.
Also this 2cc argument. you run 4 counterspell 4 standstill and 4 counterbalance. Thats 12 2cc spells. I run 5, sometimes less but generally 5. Don't tell me your not substantially more resiliant to spell snare or daze. your hardly ever going to play a matchup where you dont play against mix of daze snare stifle and wasteland, some matchups run all of those cards, and all of those cards give you problems. also just nuetralize force because they run it as well so the chances are approximately equal.
I didn’t know what your decklist looked like when I made that 2cc comparison. So you run 5 2cc spells, with 3 EE’s that can potentially be 2cc. So yes, I am more susceptible to Spell Snare. I fail to see how that makes me any more susceptible to Daze than you are, though.
When you're going that long dude, at least save it to your clipboard. If not write it on a word document.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
I just wanted to point out that MM naming Tendrils is always key. If you can force them to combo with Empty the Warrens, you can come out of this victorious. Landstill, in most list, runs mass removals in the form of EE and WOG. It should be too hard to answer ETW. On the other hand, a lethal TOA cannot be prevented after it occurs
Robert