[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

Turns out I have a little more time today after all :) I'll present my opinion on Peter's proposed 'Sol Land' plan that's been talked about here for the past few weeks. I haven't dismissed any opinions without thought and, for the record, I can appreciate the time that went into forming the long explanation posts. I understand what you're trying to achieve and the logic behind it.

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Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

My problem with these suggestions is that they slow the deck down, which I am not interested in doing. Waiting until you have mana to float and the removal of Empty from the main deck causes the deck to be slower.

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I agree with Bryant. People are entitled to a different perception, but to me, TES is a Belcher deck with disruption that uses blue cards to increase consistency and is still capable of winning a long game. I'd estimate I win around half of my games through outright aggression (either T1 kill or T1 set-up, T2 kill) and destroying them before they can interact in any relevant way. I am wary of taking any direction that moves the deck away from this; cutting Empty the Warrens, removing Chrome Moxen and increasing the land count all do exactly that.

If we're deciding to instead play a longer game, that raises the ANT vs Sol Storm(?) discussion...

I had typed a few paragraphs around this, but honestly, it's a difficult argument. Both approaches are defensible. For example, I understand that avoiding using the graveyard as a primary resource is a positive move (being forced to rely on Past in Flames when against graveyard hate is truly awful), but the power level of Cabal Ritual cannot be denied and the likelihood of the aforementioned graveyard scenario occurring is debatable. Perhaps a conclusion could be reached after testing both decks. Regardless, I won't be spending any more thought on it - in my opinion, the benefits to a slower approach, whatever approach that may be, come at too high a cost.

This is a matter of opinion, but I think we just need to get over it. There's nothing better than Chrome Mox that we aren't already playing. I don't even think the card is bad! I actually think it's pretty good! Sure, I dislike it in multiples pre-Ad Nauseam as much as the next man - it's frustrating and it does occur a little more than I would like, but I honestly don't think there's a decent remedy for that.

If it were possible to run 2.5 Chrome Mox I'd be delighted. Until then, find me something decent to replace the 3rd Chrome Mox with and I'll consider it, but I won't be leaving the other 2 at home any time soon.

The nearest 'solution' is the Simian Spirit Guide approach that Asthereal has been discussing, so I'll give my opinion on that too:

I appreciate you taking the time to take another look at this card (particularly your objectivity when doing it), but while you've discovered that some of the cons aren't that relevant in practice, I think the overall detriment (extra Ad Nauseam life-loss, colour restriction, lack of storm count and its lack of help with becoming hellbent) make the card worse than the moxen - even if any one drawback isn't significant.

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Originally Posted by vercadium

I agree with Bryant. People are entitled to a different perception, but to me, TES is a Belcher deck with disruption that uses blue cards to increase consistency and is still capable of winning a long game. I'd estimate I win around half of my games through outright aggression (either T1 kill or T1 set-up, T2 kill) and destroying them before they can interact in any relevant way. I am wary of taking any direction that moves the deck away from this; cutting Empty the Warrens, removing Chrome Moxen and increasing the land count all do exactly that.

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I don't think the metagame will be exceptionally vulnerable to Goblins, not that Eli Kassis (Grixis Control), Brian Braun-Duin (Jeskai Stoneblade) and Bob Huang (UR Delver) showed that Ponder, Brainstorm, Probe, Young Pyromancer and Treasure Cruise define a core which you have to be prepared for as a player.

This has the downside that pyromancer is a suprisingly efficient anti-EtW plan if you can't get going T1/2 and that people will be prepared for that threat in the future which also harms our EtW plan, as more SB slots will be dedicated to x/1 creatures like it was the case during TNNs heights. On top of that, we have to expect heavy stack-countermeasures in Games 2 & 3 which pushes our critical turn beyond turn 2 anyways. This and the vulnerability of goblins (Miracles!) leave me with doubts about the heavy focus on the EtW-plan and I thought about limiting it to Burning Wish for 6 and to Infernal for 8 mana. The Sol Storm idea aims to a T2/3 AN with EtW as a backup/surprise-plan.

While we are at "get going T1/2": I'm a bit baffled about the emphasis on Moxen to combo turn 1/2, as my notes are pretty clear that the key-card for T1/2 combos is LED considering that we have to squeeze out 6+ mana out of a maximum of 7 cards which is pretty unlikely to do turn 1 (hellbent aside) without the Diamond. Without a Diamond, but a Mox in hand and a Tutor/Wish required, you have 4 cards left to generate 5 more mana which is very unlikely to achieve considering that no card left blocks your hellbent despite the Mox. So, if (according to my own notes) 7/8 of my T1 combos (~17% since taking notes in 2012) are fueled by LED, the hellbent-issue Moxen should adress and is present by running more lands, isn't applying.

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Originally Posted by vercadium

If we're deciding to instead play a longer game, that raises the ANT vs Sol Storm(?) discussion...

I had typed a few paragraphs around this, but honestly, it's a difficult argument. Both approaches are defensible. For example, I understand that avoiding using the graveyard as a primary resource is a positive move (being forced to rely on Past in Flames when against graveyard hate is truly awful), but the power level of Cabal Ritual cannot be denied and the likelihood of the aforementioned graveyard scenario occurring is debatable.

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Yeah, graveyard hate is still underplayed if I look at the GP Top 16 decklists and Top 8 of the last 2 SCG Opens. I guess we need more reports from storm players to see if the gap of hate between EU and US is as vast TheCouncil, MtgTop8 and other websites imply. The more relevant point is that CR feeds PIF loops much better than AN due to the cmc, which is something to consider if we gauge the +2 colorless against the +3 black.

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Originally Posted by vercadium

Perhaps a conclusion could be reached after testing both decks. Regardless, I won't be spending any more thought on it - in my opinion, the benefits to a slower approach, whatever approach that may be, come at too high a cost.

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Vice versa. You sacrifice a lot of potential for games lasting longer than two turns (which are in fact the majority of games you'll play) to support a card, which you often side out games 2 & 3 and has it's strongest applications against a slowly diminishing slice of the metagame, while hoping that a chance for T1 kills of less than 20% can make up for the rest. Atm I can't justify this for myself.

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Originally Posted by vercadium

This is a matter of opinion, but I think we just need to get over it. There's nothing better than Chrome Mox that we aren't already playing. I don't even think the card is bad! I actually think it's pretty good! Sure, I dislike it in multiples pre-Ad Nauseam as much as the next man - it's frustrating and it does occur a little more than I would like, but I honestly don't think there's a decent remedy for that.

If it were possible to run 2.5 Chrome Mox I'd be delighted. Until then, find me something decent to replace the 3rd Chrome Mox with and I'll consider it, but I won't be leaving the other 2 at home any time soon.

The nearest 'solution' is the Simian Spirit Guide approach that Asthereal has been discussing, so I'll give my opinion on that too:

I appreciate you taking the time to take another look at this card (particularly your objectivity when doing it), but while you've discovered that some of the cons aren't that relevant in practice, I think the overall detriment (extra Ad Nauseam life-loss, colour restriction, lack of storm count and its lack of help with becoming hellbent) make the card worse than the moxen - even if any one drawback isn't significant.

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There is (currently) nothing better available to support T1/2 goblin bursts, no doubt. That was however never the question or the topic. ;)

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

That depends. Coughing up an army of Goblin tokens is actually easier with SSG.
It's true that setting up Ad Nauseam is slightly harder with SSG over Mox.
So it kind of depends on what you want to do.

I will keep on testing this idea, because in the first round it wasn't as annoying as I feared it would be.

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I'd like to have both options be effective which is why I run Chrome Mox and not SSG.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I don't think the metagame will be exceptionally vulnerable to Goblins, not that Eli Kassis (Grixis Control), Brian Braun-Duin (Jeskai Stoneblade) and Bob Huang (UR Delver) showed that Ponder, Brainstorm, Probe, Young Pyromancer and Treasure Cruise define a core which you have to be prepared for as a player.

This has the downside that pyromancer is a suprisingly efficient anti-EtW plan if you can't get going T1/2 and that people will be prepared for that threat in the future which also harms our EtW plan, as more SB slots will be dedicated to x/1 creatures like it was the case during TNNs heights. On top of that, we have to expect heavy stack-countermeasures in Games 2 & 3 which pushes our critical turn beyond turn 2 anyways. This and the vulnerability of goblins (Miracles!) leave me with doubts about the heavy focus on the EtW-plan and I thought about limiting it to Burning Wish for 6 and to Infernal for 8 mana. The Sol Storm idea aims to a T2/3 AN with EtW as a backup/surprise-plan.

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The problem with this logic is that BG/x decks came to power to fight off TNN with Golgari Charm/Toxic Deluge which aren't seeing any play because those decks aren't. They don't capitalize capitalize on Cruise as much which is why their numbers are much lower. While I agree that ETW is weak after turn three, the game plan has always been to avoid it after then anyway - I don't see why that would be any different now. A UR Delver deck even with turn two Pyromancer shouldn't be able to fend off a goblin ambush, they don't play enough spells in one turn to make this happen.

If you're attempting for turn three Ad Nauseam, it's likely too slow against those UR Delver decks anyway with Delver and Swiftswear.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

While we are at "get going T1/2": I'm a bit baffled about the emphasis on Moxen to combo turn 1/2, as my notes are pretty clear that the key-card for T1/2 combos is LED considering that we have to squeeze out 6+ mana out of a maximum of 7 cards which is pretty unlikely to do turn 1 (hellbent aside) without the Diamond. Without a Diamond, but a Mox in hand and a Tutor/Wish required, you have 4 cards left to generate 5 more mana which is very unlikely to achieve considering that no card left blocks your hellbent despite the Mox. So, if (according to my own notes) 7/8 of my T1 combos (~17% since taking notes in 2012) are fueled by LED, the hellbent-issue Moxen should adress and is present by running more lands, isn't applying.

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You're failing to see that Mox provides the extra push the deck needs, Dark Ritual paired with Lion's Eye Diamond is only four mana (There's only four Petals in the deck). We want to be able to cast Ad Nauseam. Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame, Lion's Eye Diamond, won't work when there's a black mana needed for Infernal Tutor on turn one. Mox isn't the enabler, it's a support piece.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Yeah, graveyard hate is still underplayed if I look at the GP Top 16 decklists and Top 8 of the last 2 SCG Opens. I guess we need more reports from storm players to see if the gap of hate between EU and US is as vast TheCouncil, MtgTop8 and other websites imply. The more relevant point is that CR feeds PIF loops much better than AN due to the cmc, which is something to consider if we gauge the +2 colorless against the +3 black.

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An idea I had earlier was -3 Chrome Mox, -1 ETW, -1 Cabal Therapy, +3 Cabal Ritual, +1 Past in Flames, +1 Duress. That said, I don't know how I feel about this.

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Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

I'd like to have both options be effective whichThe problem with this logic is that BG/x decks came to power to fight off TNN with Golgari Charm/Toxic Deluge which aren't seeing any play because those decks aren't. They don't capitalize capitalize on Cruise as much which is why their numbers are much lower. While I agree that ETW is weak after turn three, the game plan has always been to avoid it after then anyway - I don't see why that would be any different now. A UR Delver deck even with turn two Pyromancer shouldn't be able to fend off a goblin ambush, they don't play enough spells in one turn to make this happen.

If you're attempting for turn three Ad Nauseam, it's likely too slow against those UR Delver decks anyway with Delver and Swiftswear.

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All these UR Delver and UWR Stoneblades have efficient answers to the current metagame in Pyroclasm and Electrickery which is the current flavor of reaction to the metagame and I expect that part of sideboards to expand now while the defense against Ad Nauseam (at least mainboard) is lacking due to the cut of Wastelands and Spell Pierces.

Against UR you have a point with AN depending on your opponents hand. It can be either a game similar to Burn.dec or like one against Tempo.

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Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

You're failing to see that Mox provides the extra push the deck needs, Dark Ritual paired with Lion's Eye Diamond is only four mana (There's only four Petals in the deck). We want to be able to cast Ad Nauseam. Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame, Lion's Eye Diamond, won't work when there's a black mana needed for Infernal Tutor on turn one. Mox isn't the enabler, it's a support piece.

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A support piece with an diminishing impact after turn 2. It's not that I can't pick an an example of a mulligan-hand like Probe, Petal, RoF, BW, RoF, CoT to hint on the difference two colorless mana can make if you need to squeeze out the maximum mana from a limited number of cards available which is even more important if you have to spend resources to overcome opponing defense.

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Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

An idea I had earlier was -3 Chrome Mox, -1 ETW, -1 Cabal Therapy, +3 Cabal Ritual, +1 Past in Flames, +1 Duress. That said, I don't know how I feel about this.

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That deck is called TNT and well-explored territory. Bad AN flips AND graveyard depending, with a less stable manabase than ANT

How has testing gone with the crystal veins?

I don't like them personally because there are only 9 cards in the deck that use colorless mana in the main. The mana probably helps a lot, post tutor/wish, but I think the loss of initial colors is too great to warrant the change.

I have been testing cutting down to 2 chrome mox and adding an additional land. So far it seems okay but I don't think it makes all that much of a difference. Here is my list for refrence:

4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 gitaxian probe
4 cabal therapy
3 duress
4 burning wish
3 infernal tutor
1 ad nauseum
1 empty the warrens
4 dark ritual
4 lion's eye diamond
4 rite of flame
4 lotus petal
2 chrome mox
2 underground sea
1 volcanic island
4 gemstone mine
2 city of brass
1 tropical island
1 scalding tarn
1 polluted delta
1 misty rainforest
1 flooded strand

SB
1 tendrils
1 past in flame
1 empty the warrens
1 grapeshot
1 infernal tutor
1 massacre
1 void snare
3 abrupt decay
2 xantid swarm
2 pithing needle
1 chain of vapor


Notes:

-Yes, I play city of brass. Someday I'l pick up mana confluence, but I told myself it wouldn't get them unless I lost a game due to a Port tapping out my CoB. I also don't play the second volcanic. Purely a cost decision. I don't play magic much these days, but I like keeping this deck around for the random legacy events. But yes, they should be something else.

-Yes, I still play grapeshot. The ability to storm20 a guy for being a shitty player to play against outweighs any benefit from the extra SB slot for me. It is irrational, but I love me some storm20.

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Originally Posted by d0nkey

How has testing gone with the crystal veins?

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yes, and I'm unsure if its better or worse than CoT. It depends a lot on how the game flows (at which point you drop the Sol lands; suck as second land just to see a fetch soon later) and if you play against Thalia and aggressive Dazes or not. I keep testing

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I don't like them personally because there are only 9 cards in the deck that use colorless mana in the main. The mana probably helps a lot, post tutor/wish, but I think the loss of initial colors is too great to warrant the change.

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...the most important spells! I don't ever played a longer game (read longer than turn 1/2 combo) off Chrome Mox, but rather tried to shuffle it away asap and so I never witnessed a significant difference to the Sol land setup.

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Notes:

-Yes, I play city of brass. Someday I'l pick up mana confluence, but I told myself it wouldn't get them unless I lost a game due to a Port tapping out my CoB. I also don't play the second volcanic. Purely a cost decision. I don't play magic much these days, but I like keeping this deck around for the random legacy events. But yes, they should be something else.

-Yes, I still play grapeshot. The ability to storm20 a guy for being a shitty player to play against outweighs any benefit from the extra SB slot for me. It is irrational, but I love me some storm20.

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the topic isn't CoB vs. MC; It is why you decided to play only 4 fetchlands?

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While you are right that the most important spells in the deck need the extra colorless mana, without the colored mana to setup into the combo turn it won't matter. That's the only reason why I don't like them. Wasteland and stifle is still a thing where I'm from.


Well, I don't own a second volcanic, nor do I plan on getting one. That is why I didn't mess with the lands all that much. I should probably cut a city for the 5th fetch though regardless. I'll give that a try but the reason for playing fetches is to fix the colors, and if I get hit with a wasteland, I can't really fix my colors with a fetch without playing the 2nd volcanic. So extra fetches doesn't seem to give me a whole lot of benefit. I can see a 5th being better than a city of brass, but I can't see playing 6 fetches without the second volcanic at minimum.

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Originally Posted by d0nkey

While you are right that the most important spells in the deck need the extra colorless mana, without the colored mana to setup into the combo turn it won't matter. That's the only reason why I don't like them. Wasteland and stifle is still a thing where I'm from.


Well, I don't own a second volcanic, nor do I plan on getting one. That is why I didn't mess with the lands all that much. I should probably cut a city for the 5th fetch though regardless. I'll give that a try but the reason for playing fetches is to fix the colors, and if I get hit with a wasteland, I can't really fix my colors with a fetch without playing the 2nd volcanic. So extra fetches doesn't seem to give me a whole lot of benefit. I can see a 5th being better than a city of brass, but I can't see playing 6 fetches without the second volcanic at minimum.

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The reason for more fetches is having more shuffle effects to maximize your cantrips and not for fixing colors. If you don't have a second Volcanic, I fear you have to live with that downside.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

The reason for more fetches is having more shuffle effects to maximize your cantrips and not for fixing colors. If you don't have a second Volcanic, I fear you have to live with that downside.

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Yes, and I am okay with that. It isn't really that big of a deal when I'm looking to combo out on turn 1, 2 or 3. I'm sacrificing the late game manipulation because I don't want to even be there in the first place. Maybe I play this deck too aggressively.

But to get back on topic, how often are you finding yourself missing a color of mana while using crystal vein? I would be surprised if you haven't ran into that issue at all yet. TES needs a red and black mana available as soon as possible; it needs the colorless mana afterwards. That's why chrome mox is a great fit even with it's obvious drawbacks. Crystal vein / City of Traitors seems like a better fit for ANT, and I'm surprised I haven't seen it in any ANT lists now that I think about it.

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Originally Posted by d0nkey

Yes, and I am okay with that. It isn't really that big of a deal when I'm looking to combo out on turn 1, 2 or 3. I'm sacrificing the late game manipulation because I don't want to even be there in the first place. Maybe I play this deck too aggressively.

But to get back on topic, how often are you finding yourself missing a color of mana while using crystal vein? I would be surprised if you haven't ran into that issue at all yet. TES needs a red and black mana available as soon as possible; it needs the colorless mana afterwards. That's why chrome mox is a great fit even with it's obvious drawbacks. Crystal vein / City of Traitors seems like a better fit for ANT, and I'm surprised I haven't seen it in any ANT lists now that I think about it.

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In 2010 Sol Lands were not that uncommon in ANT (which ran several ANs and ToAs during that time), but with the prining of PIF and the shift towards the maximum on shuffle-effects and color-fixing, the +2 mana were less relevant in the face of Cabal Rituals.

I sure ran into the situation in which I had only 1 colored mana, a Vein, but an unfortunate combination of Ritual/Rite/Infernal/Wish in hand, but there is a reason I run 8 fetches and 12 cantrips to fix the problem within a turn or two (possibly changing the setup into a mono-colored). This possible delay however is less of a problem if you don't have planned to race your opponent with an unprotected EtW anyways. I had this in mind as I decided to cut the MB EtW because of the value-drop it suffers because of the lacking, early color-fix and extra mana/stormcount of Moxen.

How was your success-rate against defensive-hands in games 2 & 3 if you sacrifice so much shuffling/fixing/manapower? Just because the deck is able to overpower your opponent T1/2/3 doesn't mean that its generally fine to lose every longer game due to variance and underpowered cards.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

In 2010 Sol Lands were not that uncommon in ANT (which ran several ANs and ToAs during that time), but with the prining of PIF and the shift towards the maximum on shuffle-effects and color-fixing, the +2 mana were less relevant in the face of Cabal Rituals.

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To be fair, they also ran more Ad Nauseam at the time.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

How was your success-rate against defensive-hands in games 2 & 3 if you sacrifice so much shuffling/fixing/manapower? Just because the deck is able to overpower your opponent T1/2/3 doesn't mean that its generally fine to lose every longer game due to variance and underpowered cards.

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Lem, you know exactly how this runs.
You played the same lands for years.

4x Gemstone Mine
2x City of Brass
2x Underground Sea
1x Volcanic Island
3x Fetch

This was the core of TES for at least three years.
Adding a fetch and a Tropical only adds to consistency in longer games.

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

Lem, you know exactly how this runs.
You played the same lands for years.

4x Gemstone Mine
2x City of Brass
2x Underground Sea
1x Volcanic Island
3x Fetch

This was the core of TES for at least three years.
Adding a fetch and a Tropical only adds to consistency in longer games.

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I did not play the full rainbow 12- lands manabase for more than a year now. I never played that base in a post-TNN/multi-angle-hate/Miracle/Treasure Cruise world, so I asked about his recent experience

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

In 2010 Sol Lands were not that uncommon in ANT (which ran several ANs and ToAs during that time), but with the prining of PIF and the shift towards the maximum on shuffle-effects and color-fixing, the +2 mana were less relevant in the face of Cabal Rituals.

I sure ran into the situation in which I had only 1 colored mana, a Vein, but an unfortunate combination of Ritual/Rite/Infernal/Wish in hand, but there is a reason I run 8 fetches and 12 cantrips to fix the problem within a turn or two (possibly changing the setup into a mono-colored). This possible delay however is less of a problem if you don't have planned to race your opponent with an unprotected EtW anyways. I had this in mind as I decided to cut the MB EtW because of the value-drop it suffers because of the lacking, early color-fix and extra mana/stormcount of Moxen.

How was your success-rate against defensive-hands in games 2 & 3 if you sacrifice so much shuffling/fixing/manapower? Just because the deck is able to overpower your opponent T1/2/3 doesn't mean that its generally fine to lose every longer game due to variance and underpowered cards.

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I haven't been able to get a lot of testing in lately unfortunately. Our local scene has died a little bit.

But I feel confident in grindy games 2 and 3. Would I like to have more shuffle effects for these games? Sure. But this deck has to have a black and a red to combo out and I don't want to risk not having access to both because I needed to setup with green for an abrupt decay. (I guess this is why bayou is better than trop).

Has anyone tried Rain of Filth in TES? With my manabase (gemstones), I don't see this as a good option, but for the people that have a more stable manabase, it seems like it could be good vs grindy games. I could see rain of filth taking on the role of crystal veins for the added burst if you just went with more duals, or even basics.

I ran 2 Chrome Mox and 1 Simian Spirit Guide awhile back and didn't have a strong opinion about it one way or the other, the damage and storm weren't very relevant but color fixing and permanent mana sources were an issue off of Diminishing Returns. It might be better if you're not playing with a D7 any more, but I don't think the Pros of drawing Chrome Mox less are worth the draw backs of Simian Spirit Guide as personally I don't mind drawing Chrome Mox until the 2nd copy.

I don't care if its City of Traitors or Cabal Ritual, SB mana sources I think are really under estimated in terms of their utility and I don't think Reanimator is a large enough part of the meta to warrant narrow SB cards like Pithing Needle.

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

I ran 2 Chrome Mox and 1 Simian Spirit Guide awhile back and didn't have a strong opinion about it one way or the other, the damage and storm weren't very relevant but color fixing and permanent mana sources were an issue off of Diminishing Returns. It might be better if you're not playing with a D7 any more, but I don't think the Pros of drawing Chrome Mox less are worth the draw backs of Simian Spirit Guide as personally I don't mind drawing Chrome Mox until the 2nd copy.

I don't care if its City of Traitors or Cabal Ritual, SB mana sources I think are really under estimated in terms of their utility and I don't think Reanimator is a large enough part of the meta to warrant narrow SB cards like Pithing Needle.

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I'll agree with the Chrome Mox sentiment until the second copy. I almost never mind having one.

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

I ran 2 Chrome Mox and 1 Simian Spirit Guide awhile back and didn't have a strong opinion about it one way or the other, the damage and storm weren't very relevant but color fixing and permanent mana sources were an issue off of Diminishing Returns. It might be better if you're not playing with a D7 any more, but I don't think the Pros of drawing Chrome Mox less are worth the draw backs of Simian Spirit Guide as personally I don't mind drawing Chrome Mox until the 2nd copy.

I don't care if its City of Traitors or Cabal Ritual, SB mana sources I think are really under estimated in terms of their utility and I don't think Reanimator is a large enough part of the meta to warrant narrow SB cards like Pithing Needle.

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I agree that modular mana is an option if you face decks like tempo or control but have enough victims for your greedy G1 setup like we had end of 2011. These days, the decks you can overwhelm with the Belcher-Mode because they have no countermeasures (reads discard, Counter, Resistors or hatebears) is close to Zero and the whole development over the years (more lands, more Fetches, less colors) are geared towards reacting to that. My personal feeling however is that we cossed the point, where we have to consider the sie, defensive matchups as our standard and not the victims to out Belcher-Mode and react via our MB setup rather than our SB setup.

P.S.: will edit this post without 6 shots and 5 beers. Damnit!

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

PIF

I don't know what gives you the idea that you have to cast all these in a single turn. If you have a Ritual, an Infernal and a Wish in hand for example, you can use your turn 2 to double the Ritual with infernal, and depending on your mana, Wish->PIF on the next turn to combo off or just pass the turn with PIF in hand. You reduce the required mana to 5-8 depending on your combination of cards. There is no need to do hilarious 15 mana pre-PIF playlines.

You can also cantrip for turns into rituals and a Wish, grab PIF, play your Rituals into PIF, flashback your Rituals, and cantrip with flashbacked Ponders/Brainstorms/Probes right into the next Infernal/Wish to kill.

In general, your softspot for a PIF playline is having 2 Tutors + a combination of 3 Ritual/RoF effects.

Natural Spellchain

What's the big deal if playing out your mana also generates storm, cantrips replace themselves, Discard also generates storm, Probes cost Zero mana, your opponent is damaging himself with fechlands/Probes so you need most likely 9 storm instead of 10, the IT->BW->ToA playline is 3 storm without ever costing a card and you can have up to 8 cards for such a combo in your own hand?

This deck is 50% mana anyways, so as an example, you can start with Petal into Ritual into Probe into Therapy (FoW) into LED into tapping two lands into RoF into Infernal into Wish into ToA is 9 storm for example. If you need more examples, Bryant has written "storm hands" articles for that and you can also see playlines with Natural Chains if you browse though my "Heart of the Storm" articles. You can find the links at the bottom of the primer.

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Hi, i tried this options but i had no luck with ur delver. I ve played some games vs delver and had won only one when on turn 2 i ETWed my oppo with 14 goblin. About the opening hand, there is an optimal combo of cards vs delver decks?
Ty

To followup on a lot of talk about various techs and stuff, I wanted to post this list and see what people think:

Bombs/Win-Cons
4 Burning Wish
3 Infernal Tutor
1 Ad Nauseam

Mana Acceleration
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Cabal Ritual
2 Chrome Mox

Cantrips
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

Protection
7 Cabal Therapy/Duress

Land
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou

Sideboard
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot/Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy?
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
1 Void Snare
1 Massacre
2 Chain of Vapor/Pyroblast/Decay+Pyroblast/Decay+Chain
3 Xantid Swarm
3 Abrupt Decay

The primary change here is that 1 EtW and 1 Chrome Mox became Cabal Rituals. Of all the stuff discussed about mana, making Ad Nauseam effective, or having alternative choices to it, this is what I think the most effective config is.

Cabal Rituals vs. Chrome Mox vs. Sol Lands etc.
I ended up with a 2-2 split of Cabal Rituals and Chrome Mox, just looking at the strategy of making the most effective use of Ad Nauseam. It's a lot harder, in my experience, to have a land drop after Ad Nauseam than it is to have some mana floating, and I don't really like the idea of delaying my combo shot just so I can land a sol land drop or build up some extra mana because then I'm vulnerable to discard or extra damage or hatebears etc.

Chrome Mox is just the best card there is at making Ad Nauseams with no land-drop or floating mana successful, at least when I'm already playing 4 Lotus Petal. As much as people might want to eschew it, I've found the Ad Nauseam just isn't as good without it. This isn't Tin Fins where you can stop midstream and readjust your life total to keep going or know for sure how many cards you're digging to, Chrome Mox is what makes the variance acceptable, in my opinion, and dropping it down to 2 is just to decrease the chance of seeing too many of them pre-combo.

Cabal Ritual is added in as a concession to all the high-damage strats and such in the format, it's easier to PiF loop or Tutor chain when you have high power Rituals. Removing EtW means that the 2 CMC isn't that clunky, since it's the highest CMC you'll ever encounter. While this deck isn't the best at Threshold, it's still worthwhile ramp for going off fast.

No EtW
So, this is probably the most contentious choice, considering that replacing stuff with Cabal Rituals was already a thing that happened last summer. However, as much as Cabal Ritual gets sided out a lot, EtW gets sided out a lot as well. Also, the matches where it is sided out, EtW is terrible. Think big creature combo, storm combo, control, etc. In general, I just find that I don't want EtW a lot, except in random hatebear decks or as a win-con when I see an opponent as exposed, in other words, a Wish target. Given that classic RUG Delver isn't really a thing anymore, and Young Pyromancer is a much a source of EtW hate as it is a wincon, I can't really think of a non-hatebear deck where I'm looking for EtW except for maybe having it in my opener. While some may lament the loss of the "6-mana plan", it still exists 4/7 of the time through Burning Wish, and with Cabal Ritual in CM/EtW's stead you can get extra ramp to make that 6-mana happen, or give you the 7th mana to just help make Tutor fetch Ad Nauseam instead the other 3/7ths of the time.

Sideboard/Optional slots
I'm a little unsure on the balance of discard spells and sb slots. With no EtW main, one could consider 4 Duress + 3 Cabal Therapy, the issue I see there is that in matchups like Burn or Elves you have another Duress to side out and Abrupt Decay seems really meh in those scenarios. Moreover, a lot of fast EtW hands tend to involve LED, and discarding Therapy just to flash it back is a cool synergy in creature matchups where you don't need protection but do want to strip a key card.

For the sideboard, idk if Pyroblast is worthwhile. Given the BBD-clones playing stoenblade with just Meddling Mage and Cliques as disruption, Pyroblast could be really good, as would Grapeshot. On the other hand, Chain of Vapor is the tried and true efficient method of handling creatures in non-blue matchups and, as stated, it would be a little clunky to just lean on Decay for that. You could run a couple Decay with/without Grapeshot against the Meddling Mage decks, as well. IDK about Pithing Needle lately, just because I still lose to Counterbalance with it up, and Xantid Swarm is a much higher upside potential.

Grapeshot is serving a role of "clean Storm kill not named Tendrils of Agony". You can use it or ToA in the main to play around Extraction, its flexible, etc. If you choose to main it, it's also cheap enough to not significantly impact Ad Nauseam, fwiw.

I like that, I've been thinking exactly the same -1 EtW - 1 CMox +2 Cabal Ritual. Seems good on paper, please share if you get any feedback from playing. Another option I considered is PiF instead of EtW, with some number of Cabal Rituals in the list.

As for sideboard, I think REB/Pyro is worth at least 1 slot. As for the discard slot, I like playing the 4th Duress. I also like Carpet, but haven't tested it yet. Is it good enough?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mastikor

I like that, I've been thinking exactly the same -1 EtW - 1 CMox +2 Cabal Ritual. Seems good on paper, please share if you get any feedback from playing. Another option I considered is PiF instead of EtW, with some number of Cabal Rituals in the list.

As for sideboard, I think REB/Pyro is worth at least 1 slot. As for the discard slot, I like playing the 4th Duress. I also like Carpet, but haven't tested it yet. Is it good enough?

---

I don't think PiF quite works main deck, i think Lem mentioned once swapping it with AdNaus maindeck against Burn, but with Burning Wish exiling itself and having to find all my win cons, its awkward to say the least.

My original draft of this used 2 Pyroblasts and Grapeshot to keep ahead of Meddling Mage, and also have some use for natural storm chains, since Burning Wish doesn't require Hellbent. I could see 1 copy making it's way into the board. Carpet seems interesting, I just can't figure out how I'd have space for it.

What a coincidence, yesterday i had the same thought process: kick out the empty the warrens + chrome mox #3 in order to make room for cabal rituals.

Then i started to test against every single delver deck out there to see how we can grind them out with additional mana boost. (I think it's clear that i shouldn't test a superfast Deck like TES against Elves or Lands)

I have been sucessful so far by killing the opponent via tutor/wish chain or pifloop when ad nauseam was already dead.
It really works,finally i also kicked out rite of flame #4 for a cabal ritual #3 but i've no idea if its good.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sawatarix

What a coincidence, yesterday i had the same thought process: kick out the empty the warrens + chrome mox #3 in order to make room for cabal rituals.

Then i started to test against every single delver deck out there to see how we can grind them out with additional mana boost. (I think it's clear that i shouldn't test a superfast Deck like TES against Elves or Lands)

I have been sucessful so far by killing the opponent via tutor/wish chain or pifloop when ad nauseam was already dead.
It really works,finally i also kicked out rite of flame #4 for a cabal ritual #3 but i've no idea if its good.

---

I wouldn't go cutting Rite, it's important for getting double red for Wish -> PiF/EtW/Grapeshot

I don't think cutting RoF is ever a good idea since it automatically weakens the remaining ones. For 3rd Cabal, I'd consider cutting a land (although I like 13), maybe a Duress or even a Ponder. Even 61 cards may not be horrible, but I think 2 Cabals are enough. Note that we still have to keep the CMC as low as possible and imo that was the main thing behind the idea of droping the EtW.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mastikor

I don't think cutting RoF is ever a good idea since it automatically weakens the remaining ones. For 3rd Cabal, I'd consider cutting a land (although I like 13), maybe a Duress or even a Ponder. Even 61 cards may not be horrible, but I think 2 Cabals are enough. Note that we still have to keep the CMC as low as possible and imo that was the main thing behind the idea of droping the EtW.

---

If you reduce the number of initial manasources post-AN, you have to make up for it by being able flipping more cards to Ad Nauseam. Not being forced to stop at 4 life is a huge difference as I already mentioned several times.

I'm glad we finally reached the point where people test without the EtW main with Max summarizing my points about the strategic removal of that spell outside of the cmc issue

Mind that if you play with 10+ Rituals, you can swap AN for PIF+ToA postboard against Burn and UR Delver and call it a day because you also run 7 Tutors and ergo Dodge the whole problem of Tutor shortage which occurs in ANT at times

Just one thing: consider to move to full Fetches and a second green dual in the SB to support 2-3 CR as Moxen + Gemstones are really not that good in combination with CRs


Edit:
Max, I doubt Sol Land vs. CR is really a matter of speed overall (arguing with the hatebear matchup) considering that Thres.hold rarely comes online before turn 3 anyways which was the timeframe I had in mind for the Sol land to be relevant in case of matching Rituals/Tutors (turn 2) and un-matched ones (turn 3).

I don't want to swap the numbers of CT and Duresses not only because of the boarding slots which was one point to step away from that idea but because I'm fine with dismembering defense over turns, drop EtW and use the flashbacks to blow out possible comebacks


Edit 2:
I think it's worth discussion how the 0cc of Sol Lands relate to the 2cc of CRs for AN (also with PIF in mind)

I put together the list suggested above (I'm still on two Gemstones - I think it's necessary, especially when I'm running seven green cards in my sideboard). I've goldfished about twenty games, so far I like it - the ability to go very low on Ad Nauseam has been nice, Tutor chaining is more reliable and PIF is a stronger option (The real gain over the SOL lands). We're a little slower on Infernal hands since making ETW tokens cost more than Ad Nauseam now, but I think it's an acceptable trade-off.

I think four Duress may be the way to go if Empty isn't in our Main Deck anymore as it's more reliable, which brings me to my next point. Lem, weren't you just saying a page ago how we shouldn't be using ETW past turn two? Now you're using it to justify more Cabal Therapy!

I really disagee on shaving any number of Rite of Flame as it's effect severely diminishes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

I put together the list suggested above (I'm still on two Gemstones - I think it's necessary, especially when I'm running seven green cards in my sideboard). I've goldfished about twenty games, so far I like it - the ability to go very low on Ad Nauseam has been nice, Tutor chaining is more reliable and PIF is a stronger option (The real gain over the SOL lands). We're a little slower on Infernal hands since making ETW tokens cost more than Ad Nauseam now, but I think it's an acceptable trade-off.

I think four Duress may be the way to go if Empty isn't in our Main Deck anymore as it's more reliable, which brings me to my next point. Lem, weren't you just saying a page ago how we shouldn't be using ETW past turn two? Now you're using it to justify more Cabal Therapy!

I really disagee on shaving any number of Rite of Flame as it's effect severely diminishes.

---

Yes, I'm not a big fan of going for EtW turn 3 or beyond. It is however an option to consider if you are running low on life/possible stormcount/cards at some point and if you used Therapies rather than Duresses to dismember your opponents defense to this point, you can use the flashback to ride the goblins to victory. I think it is important to keep this option available on top of the fact that Duress can't strip creatures.

Stream of thought: I'm not sure if I want/need Carpet of Flowers if we've added in Cabal Ritual. I may switch back to either Needles or Xantid + X.

Edit: This is what I've been goldfishing this morning:

4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Gemstone Mine
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou

2 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
2 Cabal Ritual

3 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Ad Nauseam

Sideboard
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Pithing Needle
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Void Snare
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Massacre
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Mind that if you play with 10+ Rituals, you can swap AN for PIF+ToA postboard against Burn and UR Delver and call it a day because you also run 7 Tutors and ergo Dodge the whole problem of Tutor shortage which occurs in ANT at times

---

This is actually a pretty good point in favor of Cabal Ritual right now, if you play online there's loads of Burn and UR and Treasure Burn etc. Carpet isn't even good in 2/3 of those scenarios, and Carpet/Lands just can't be flashed back. Moreover, having more Tutors means you aren't as reliant on cantrips, so with everyone and their brother's maining/siding red blast effects you can ignore it some games and make them feel foolish.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Edit: Max, I doubt Sol Land vs. CR is really a matter of speed overall (arguing with the hatebear matchup) considering that Thres.hold rarely comes online before turn 3 anyways which was the timeframe I had in mind for the Sol land to be relevant in case of matching Rituals/Tutors (turn 2) and un-matched ones (turn 3).

I don't want to swap the numbers of CT and Duresses not only because of the boarding slots which was one point to step away from that idea but because I'm fine with dismembering defense over turns, drop EtW and use the flashbacks to blow out possible comebacks

---

When I mean speed vs lands, I'm mostly thinking how, if you have a fistful of rituals and you have an opening, you can slam them all, whereas you can always only play one land a turn. Regarding the CMC, I think that's a matter of expected value, Cabal Ritual isn't really a great card except pre-Ad Nauseam, but it is very useful for PiF/chaining when we're not even thinking of Ad Nauseam. I think we're in a meta where Ad Nauseam isn't as strong, so increasing the power of secondary/tertiary lines probably has a higher marginal yield. A lot of the matchups where Ad Nauseam is good, it's pretty much a goldfish, so the removal of EtW and it's replacement with Cabal Ritual is reasonable even then.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

I put together the list suggested above (I'm still on two Gemstones - I think it's necessary, especially when I'm running seven green cards in my sideboard). I've goldfished about twenty games, so far I like it - the ability to go very low on Ad Nauseam has been nice, Tutor chaining is more reliable and PIF is a stronger option (The real gain over the SOL lands). We're a little slower on Infernal hands since making ETW tokens cost more than Ad Nauseam now, but I think it's an acceptable trade-off.

---

I don't know how correct my initial draft of 4 Gemstone was, I just liked the idea because my list had 3 Swarms and the ability to chain Swarm one turn into discard or cantrips the other turns was pretty appealing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

I think four Duress may be the way to go if Empty isn't in our Main Deck anymore as it's more reliable, which brings me to my next point. Lem, weren't you just saying a page ago how we shouldn't be using ETW past turn two? Now you're using it to justify more Cabal Therapy!

---

The only thing making me apprehensive about 4 Duress is how awkward it would feel against Elves having to side in 2 Abrupt Decays to fill slots after 2 Chain of Vapor. Has anyone considered siding in Pithing Needle against Elves? A lot of turn 2/3 combos from Elves rely a lot on t1 DRS/Quiron Ranger, Needling them could be a far smoother way of delaying them compared to Decay.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

I really disagee on shaving any number of Rite of Flame as it's effect severely diminishes.

---

For anyone considering cutting a Rite, just remember the 4th Rite generates a net gain of +4 mana! That's better than Cabal Ritual and LED.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

Stream of thought: I'm not sure if I want/need Carpet of Flowers if we've added in Cabal Ritual. I may switch back to either Needles or Xantid + X.

Edit: This is what I've been goldfishing this morning:

4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Gemstone Mine
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou

2 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
2 Cabal Ritual

3 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Ad Nauseam

Sideboard
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Pithing Needle
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Void Snare
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Massacre
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames

---

I couldn't find room for Carpet, this looks rather solid, given the points discussed above. I'm a little peeved at the idea of bringing in Decays against Esperblade, but it's likely necessary to have those Decays and Needles given Miracles and the former's use against those trendy Chalice decks.

I play the deck with a strategic mixture of foils and non-foils, the reason I do this is so I can write down/make note of situations on flex slots and then review it after enough games. For example, I'll run something like 2 foil chrome mox but when I see the non-foil I always ask, "what should that have been". Here is what I've found:

1. Just wanted to mention that after turn 3/4 Empty the Warrens is the card I throw under chrome mox whenever I can, but it happens a lot. Make of that data what you will.

2. After 300+ games I've found that it's about even as to whether it should be cabal ritual. And yes, I factored in the value of PiF options. What I'm saying is, for every time it would have been better seeing cabal, there was also a game I would have lost when I absolutely had to Ad N without mana floating. I'm saying Ultimately, with my testing so far, it doesn't matter which you choose. I'd go with whatever fits your play-style, and I like the mox because I tend to either be very aggressive, or very conservative (cantripping till the last moment hiding moxen I don't want), with no in-between. I also think the meta calls for aggression, but when Esper dominates I will try the ritual.

3. I know it sounds bad, but the majority of the time when I see the non-foil mox it would be good as a chain of vapor. I could either
A. buy myself time by bouncing a threat EoT. It's also good to hit a Top Eot so that UW can't float a counter to protect it from duress.
B. I can build the natural storm. Good after using wish bait for Tendrils,
C. Post (and even sometimes pre) ad nausea I can deal with a annoying board piece (Ex. Eidolon, flipped delver, germ token, elf). If they want to use a counter on it to protect their piece, so be it. This is great when your enemy UW player rushes a Counter Balance onto the board without a top just to hope.
D. But my favorite part of the idea is that it opens up a SB slot.
E. In matches where you know you wont use it, and you wont use natural storm off it, you can throw it under a mox and cantrip while saving fetchlands to go the long route.

4. Back in the BUG meta I ran the third mox as an Island to cantrip-durdle until I was ready and protect my hand with BS. The fetchable option definitely outweighed when I got it or mox in my hand naturally. I don't think in today's meta this is the right call, but it's an option if you truley hate mox as much as this thread suggests.

Conclusion, Personally I just don't mind seeing 1 mox.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wonderPreaux

The only thing making me apprehensive about 4 Duress is how awkward it would feel against Elves having to side in 2 Abrupt Decays to fill slots after 2 Chain of Vapor. Has anyone considered siding in Pithing Needle against Elves? A lot of turn 2/3 combos from Elves rely a lot on t1 DRS/Quiron Ranger, Needling them could be a far smoother way of delaying them compared to Decay.

---

As the hugest pithing advocate, I had good experiences bringing them in, but only on the draw.

Interesting story: I was playing in a tournament less than a week ago and I kept a hand on the play with needle, 1 Probe, game 2 against UW control. His hand was CB, Top, Fow, BS, Flooded Strand, Pierce, Terminus. I was so happy! I played land needle and he choose to burn the Fow/BS just to save his only land. I didn't blow him out like I could have, but getting rid of that Fow was clutch. So yeah, I almost always bring needles in on the play.



So there is something I wanted to get some feedback from the community on. In the matches where I have tried to side in the Infernal I've found that Burning is just not so good. Any suggestions on sweet lines with burning? I find PiF is not reliable. So maybe that's another argument for cabal?

Played my local with the new Rituals main, no mainboard ETW. Went 4-0, won a Wasteland.
M1 (Maverick): G1 Adnaus turn 1, win. G2 PiF kill - cabal ritual really shined.
M2 (UWR Delver): G1 Natural spellchain. G2 Past in flames Kill.
M3 (UR Delver): G1 natural chain. G2 Past in Flames kill.
M4 (MUD): G1 Turn 2 Ad Nauseam through a chalice on 1. Cabal ritual won me the game here since I got around chalice. G2: MUD does its thing. G3: Pass the turn Adnaus on turn 2, Past in Flames kill on turn 3.

Thoughts: There were definitely places where not having the mainboard ETW hurt, especially against UWR, but no 4-mana spells in the main means I can confidently Adnaus down to 1 or 2 without worrying about dying. Cutting EtW forces us to be more of a tendrils deck than a goblins deck, and that seems to me like where we want to be in this meta.
Regarding Cabal Ritual: Saved me in some clutch situations (e.g. Chalice on 1). CRit makes the sideboard Infernal really good, and enables PiF to a ridiculous level. In 10 locals with TES, I'd used PiF only once, and last night I PiFd for the win at least once every round. I personally really like it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by That nice guy

11. Just wanted to mention that after turn 3/4 Empty the Warrens is the card I throw under chrome mox whenever I can, but it happens a lot. Make of that data what you will.

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Thats a pretty relatable sentiment, late game EtW just isn't that fun against Elves, Pyromancer, Top/Terminus, Batterskull etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by That nice guy

2. After 300+ games I've found that it's about even as to whether it should be cabal ritual. And yes, I factored in the value of PiF options. What I'm saying is, for every time it would have been better seeing cabal, there was also a game I would have lost when I absolutely had to Ad N without mana floating. I'm saying Ultimately, with my testing so far, it doesn't matter which you choose. I'd go with whatever fits your play-style, and I like the mox because I tend to either be very aggressive, or very conservative (cantripping till the last moment hiding moxen I don't want), with no in-between. I also think the meta calls for aggression, but when Esper dominates I will try the ritual.

---

I don't really think Esper is really that good these days, but with a lot of the meta throwing Lightning Bolts around, it's likely worth the stronger Tutor chain/PiF lines.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by That nice guy

3. I know it sounds bad, but the majority of the time when I see the non-foil mox it would be good as a chain of vapor. I could either
A. buy myself time by bouncing a threat EoT. It's also good to hit a Top Eot so that UW can't float a counter to protect it from duress.
B. I can build the natural storm. Good after using wish bait for Tendrils,
C. Post (and even sometimes pre) ad nausea I can deal with a annoying board piece (Ex. Eidolon, flipped delver, germ token, elf). If they want to use a counter on it to protect their piece, so be it. This is great when your enemy UW player rushes a Counter Balance onto the board without a top just to hope.
D. But my favorite part of the idea is that it opens up a SB slot.
E. In matches where you know you wont use it, and you wont use natural storm off it, you can throw it under a mox and cantrip while saving fetchlands to go the long route.

---

We do have Void Snare for hitting outs. The problem with freeing SB slots by maining sb cards is that there are matchups where Chain of Vapor just doesn't matter or shouldn't matter. The "throw it under a mox" argument is pretty sketchy given that youre saying "you can just mulligan when its not useful". i want as few mulligans, literal or effective, as possible, since this deck decays really quickly on mulligans, unless you happen to mull into LEDs or other high-power cards

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by That nice guy

So there is something I wanted to get some feedback from the community on. In the matches where I have tried to side in the Infernal I've found that Burning is just not so good. Any suggestions on sweet lines with burning? I find PiF is not reliable. So maybe that's another argument for cabal?

---

For games where you're siding Infernal in, its to combo faster, usually with EtW against hatebear decks like Burn/DnT, so the Wish line is simply for EtW. The other case is something like the storm mirror, where Wish finds PiF, and I suppose this is where you lose out not having SB discard, since that was typically the other option. There are cases where it makes sense to just go t1 EtW against ANT, i suppose if you were really desperate you could Void Snare + Duress/Therapy an LED or something, too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by That nice guy

Ultimately, with my testing so far, it doesn't matter which you choose. I'd go with whatever fits your play-style

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I take issue with this statement in particular. "Play-style" just isn't good reasoning. I get that Legacy has a lot of pet-deck mentality and preference rationale, but you shouldn't have a card in your deck because it "seems ok for you". There are situations where, among Chrome Mox and Cabal Ritual, one is OBJECTIVELY better than the other, and a very small number of cases where theyre both equivalently good. If you take the likelihood of these various scenarios occurring and multiply them by their effective difference, you get the expected value of effectiveness for both cards, again, objective difference, not subjective. The odds that each EV is exactly the same is very, very, VERY unlikely and if one is even a fraction of a percent better, you should be playing that one, regardless of how you "feel" about it.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=76818

TES took 10th (Mislabeled).

Whoever it is clearly follows the thread.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=76818

TES took 10th (Mislabeled).

Whoever it is clearly follows the thread.

---

I glad about the 2 storm decks in T16 in general. May the user piloting the list say "hi" ;)

Hi guys does anyone explain me why ant decks are performing better than tes deck at major tournament? I mean, according to the placement lists i ve noticed that there s always an ant deck instead of a tes one. I m pro tes but i really don't understand this difference in the results. Ty :-)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by oracL3

Hi guys does anyone explain me why ant decks are performing better than tes deck at major tournament? I mean, according to the placement lists i ve noticed that there s always an ant deck instead of a tes one. I m pro tes but i really don't understand this difference in the results. Ty :-)

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I think it's just because ANT is much more popular and played than TES.

Hello, I’m Daniel Battle, long-time lurker and first time poster.

I got 10th at the SCG open this weekend with a record of 7-2 (link in Bryant's post above). I also drew into the Top 32 of the last Legacy Open in Atlanta around two months ago with TES.

Results:
2-0 High Tide (Feline Longmore)
2-1 UR Delver
0-2 Shardless BUG
0-2 Dredge
2-1 Omni-Tell
2-1 Reanimator
2-1 Tezzeret
2-0 Hypergensis
2-0 Infect
Final record: 7-2

Notes:
-I only killed with Empty once. I would also have won against Shardless with them but he ripped his MD Pulse G1. Empty was revealed many more times to Ad Nauseum then it was useful for casting, so I’m definitely looking into the 2 Cabal Ritual 2 Chrome Mox version.
-I drew 2 Chrome Mox a lot of times throughout the day, and it was awful. That’s another reason why going down to two Moxes would be great.
-Most games were won with Ad Nauseum, a couple were won with a natural spell chain, and no wins with Past in Flames.
-The loses to dredge were me keeping a slow hand g1 and continuously drawing lands G1 so I couldn't become hellbent, and dying off an Ad Nauseum G2.

Overall, I love the deck, and will probably try the Cabal version on MTGO over the next couple of weeks. Unfortunately, there are not any Opens in the southeast for the first half of next year, so I don't know when I'll be able to play a live event again. :/

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Battle7

Hello, I’m Daniel Battle, long-time lurker and first time poster.

I got 10th at the SCG open this weekend with a record of 7-2 (link in Bryant's post above). I also drew into the Top 32 of the last Legacy Open in Atlanta around two months ago with TES.

Results:
2-0 High Tide (Feline Longmore)
2-1 UR Delver
0-2 Shardless BUG
0-2 Dredge
2-1 Omni-Tell
2-1 Reanimator
2-1 Tezzeret
2-0 Hypergensis
2-0 Infect
Final record: 7-2

Notes:
-I only killed with Empty once. I would also have won against Shardless with them but he ripped his MD Pulse G1. Empty was revealed many more times to Ad Nauseum then it was useful for casting, so I’m definitely looking into the 2 Cabal Ritual 2 Chrome Mox version.
-I drew 2 Chrome Mox a lot of times throughout the day, and it was awful. That’s another reason why going down to two Moxes would be great.
-Most games were won with Ad Nauseum, a couple were won with a natural spell chain, and no wins with Past in Flames.
-The loses to dredge were me keeping a slow hand g1 and continuously drawing lands G1 so I couldn't become hellbent, and dying off an Ad Nauseum G2.

Overall, I love the deck, and will probably try the Cabal version on MTGO over the next couple of weeks. Unfortunately, there are not any Opens in the southeast for the first half of next year, so I don't know when I'll be able to play a live event again. :/

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Hi Daniel!
Welcome to the active part of The Source.
Nice of you to come say hi. :smile:

Sounds like your losses were rather unlucky. The list you ran should not kill itself with Ad Nauseam, and losing to the one-of topdeck speaks for itself. We've all been there I'm afraid. I have two questions, one TES-related and one not. So TES first: how did you like the mana base with 6x fetch, 2x Mine and the Bayou? Have you ever been annoyed with the Bayou and wished you ran it in the board (or that is was a Trop or so)?

And for the non-TES-related question: What kind of list was the Hypergenesis deck you played against in round 8, and what the hell was that doing so high up in the rankings? I got curious about that. :wink:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

Hi Daniel!
Welcome to the active part of The Source.
Nice of you to come say hi. :smile:

Sounds like your losses were rather unlucky. The list you ran should not kill itself with Ad Nauseam, and losing to the one-of topdeck speaks for itself. We've all been there I'm afraid. I have two questions, one TES-related and one not. So TES first: how did you like the mana base with 6x fetch, 2x Mine and the Bayou? Have you ever been annoyed with the Bayou and wished you ran it in the board (or that is was a Trop or so)?

And for the non-TES-related question: What kind of list was the Hypergenesis deck you played against in round 8, and what the hell was that doing so high up in the rankings? I got curious about that. :wink:

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Thanks!

The manabase was great. I was happy with the Bayou all day, and it never really hurt. Being able to combo off the Bayou definitely made it feel better then a Tropical.

The Hypergenesis deck was playing some of the damage enchantments (Warstorm Surge, Wound Reflection), Gisela, Hellkite, Emrakul, Progenitus, and Temur Ascendency, along with 8 Spirit Guides. She just happened to draw the wrong half of the deck against me, though the deck seems fairly weak to discard. She said she had a lot of T1 kills, so it seems like she had some good matchups and was running above average. It was definitely a cool deck though!

Congrats on the finish. How were the Carpets in SB?