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Not yet, but that could be a good idea to try. My colored mana, not counting my creatures (1 Arbor, 1 Deathrite, 1 Sylvan Caryatid) is currently:Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBoozeCube
3 Mox Diamond
5 Fetchlands
2 Forest
1 Tropical
1 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
Maybe i should try the Cataracts, never really thought about that.
I don't think Scroll Rack is ever going to work unless card drawing - Endbringer, Coercive Portal, Staff of Nin, or whatever - is run along side it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshrac82
I sort of worry that we're looking to make this too complex. It's totally sweet that everything is on the table with big mana, but I think moving toward a more streamlined plan - even if it's something cancerous like Stax - is the way to go. I loved Rock's Stax list and I'm also dabbling with white.
Then again, maybe Cascading Cataracts makes me look like an idiot and anything is possible. Who knows?
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Karakas
4 Glimmerpost
1 Ancient Tomb
3 Eldrazi Temple
6 Forest
4 Vesuva
4 Cloudpost
3 Pithing Needle
2 Tangle Wire
3 Ancient Stirrings
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 Crop Rotation
3 Trinisphere
2 Expedition Map
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
2 Conduit of Ruin
1 Platinum Emperion
3 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Cursed Totem
1 All is Dust
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
2 Warping Wail
I cut down to 60. Advice please?
I think Sylvan Carytid might be a good option here for defending Nissa?Quote:
Originally Posted by Skriger
True but I couldn't figure a good spot. Perhaps dump the maps, replace 2 with Ponder, remove 1 Walking Ballista, remove 1 forest. That clears up for 3, but still feel i need 4. Ideas?Quote:
Originally Posted by Roweboater
In my build I cut the Primeval Titans since Nissa provides ramp and is easier to cast. I have been thinking about adding a GSZ package to find Courser/Oracle more reliably and get T1 Dryad Arbors to get double green for Courser. Caryatid could work in that structure, and you don't have to fill slots with mana dorks that clutter your late game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skriger
My current list:
4 Cloudposts
4 Glimmerposte
1 Vesuva
3 Tropical Island
4 Misty rainforest
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Primeval Titan
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Walking Ballista
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 Show and Tell
4 Brainstorm
3 Crop Rotation
4 Warping Wail
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Pithing Needle
2 Engineerd Explosives
3 Toxic Deluge
3 Expedition Map
Sideboard:
4 Force of Will
3 Flusterstorm
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Krosan Grip
2 Moment's Peace
Played a trial today, 114 players, 7 rounds.
Round 1: Miracles.
It's some kind of running gag, lost 0-2. Yes. Don't ask, take it.
Round 2: Aggro Loam
Won 2-0. Opponent didn' find Chalice, Needle on Knight, Bojuka for LftL. Got wasted once or twice, Titan doing it's job...Game 2 he needled my Eye of Ugin. 2 Titans in play, opponent has Dark Depths with 8 counters on it. I attack, go for the Vesuva, copying DD, paying the 30 Mana instantly, opponent conceeds...^^
Round 3: TNN Bant
Won 2-0. No real pressure, despite TNN with Jitte. Ramped fast, quick wins.
Round 4: Grixis Delver (or 4c)
Won 2-1. Very, very close games, including some strange plays like making a Scion with Warping Wail twice, copying Opponent's Wasteland to destroy his Badlands (Worked great, has been screewed for several turns)
Round 5: Elves
Won 2-1. Again very, very close games. He wins game 1, I manage to take games 2-3. Chasm and Deluge are great
Round 6: Grixis Delver (or 4c)
Won 2-1. Yeah, you know...very, very close games. Game 1: Needle on Wasteland. Game 2: Needle on Wasteland. Never saw a copy. Game 3? Sure, Needle on Wasteland. And yes, he played them Abrupt Decay on Needle, Wasteland...). But topdeck Titan, followed by Ulamog soon...
Round 7: Storm
Won 2-1. Yeah, really. Game 1 was a quick loss. Bringing 11 cards for games 2-3...Safe play, turn 4 or 5 SnT into Emrakul. Same game 3, playing Warping Wail on Ponder, plus 2 FoW and 1 Flusterstorm when opponents looks at my hand. SnT into Emrakul...GG. Had to take a mulligan, but it has been a great 6, developing even better.
Final standings: 7th place, winning a Bye for the main event plus a Snapcaster Mage.
Overall I'm super happy. Yes, lost to Miracles. Miracles without SDT (he played Portent). Can't help it, it's my Nemesis. But also won against several difficult MUs (Elves, Aggro Loam and Storm). So I will have to play the deck in the main event again, no choice...^^
Will make some minor changes, probably cutting Ugin and Ballista. In 7 rounds, I played Ballista 2 times, Ugin only once or even not a single time, not sure.
My friend just posted the MKM results from the first large legacy tournament in the post-Miracle world, 440 players. They even gave the metagame breakdown, I took the data data and converted it to percentages. Looks like elves/storm was only 15% of the brave new world.
8.6% Grixis Delver
7.5% Sneak and Show
7.5% Death and Taxes
6.8% Stoneblade
6.6% Elves
5.9% Storm
5.7% Reanimator
5.0% Shardless BUG
3.6% Food Chain
3.6% Infect
3.4% Aggro Loam
3.4% Burn
3.2% Bug Delver
2.3% Dredge
2.0% Lands
24.8% Other archetypes
Yes, I can confirm this meta, since I played the tournament. Didn't as good as the day before, but 12 Post is still alive. 10 rounds, 1 bye, so 9 matches. Played against:Quote:
Originally Posted by maCHOOga
- Canadian (W)
- Death & Taxes (L)
- Elves (W)
- Burn (L)
- Shardless BUG (W)
- Cloudpost Eldrazi (colorless) (W)
- TNN BUG (L)
- Big Red (L)
- Grixis Delver (L)
D&T loss was due to a bad mistake I made, TNN BUG was a coinflip - decision I hab to make G3, decided "wrong". Only Burn and Big Red seemed to be unwinable. Had a 1-off - fun-off in the SB I loved: Elesh Norn! Played 4 SnT + 1 Quicksilver Amulet, and Elesh took G2 against Elves^^
Walking Ballista seems excellent in a Trinket Mage package, but I don't understand the reason to include it otherwise. It seems rather inefficient from a pure mana sense. Is there something I'm not seeing here?
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Agree. Tried it without TM and was disappointed. Never fetched it with Eye of Ugin, only used it twice. Almost bad in starting 7, late game it feels like win-more.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBoozeCube
Rock's Winter Orb list intrigued the hell out of me and I knew I wanted to brew something similarly evil. However, I don't have Rishadan Port yet and there are still other Legacy staples I need to pick up first, so I wanted to try a different orb...Static Orb. I threw together a list and so far it's been great. I've lost to nut draws and that's about it.
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
2 Thespian's Stage
1 Inventors' Fair
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Wasteland
1 Eye of Ugin
2 Blinkmoth Well
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
1 Endbringer
4 Metalworker
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Expedition Map
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Static Orb
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
1 Crucible of Worlds
SIDEBOARD:
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Dismember
3 Warping Wail
2 Karn Liberated
2 Ratchet Bomb
It needs some tuning but I feel like there is a lot of potential: if you draw well, you mostly just blow people away. I should have known beforehand, but Walking Ballista definitely belongs in here: about the only problem the deck has is mid-late dead draws, and Ballista at least gives you something constructive to do with your mana. As much as I love the card, Wurmcoil is probably the casualty here. Karn is largely a meta call: my play group loves Null Rod and Pithing Needle and I like having options in general. I'm also tinkering with a mono-white list, but I think I'm going to work on this for at least a little while. The fact that it's fun to play is just gravy.
There's also Soothsaying. It would neither be as good as Sensei's Divining Top nor a four of, but it's a mana sink that digs a lot deeper than Sensei's ever did.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotmaster
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBoozeCube
I treat him as a removal spell more than a creature. Having him sit in hand and not needed isn't really that bad. He could also be used as counterspell fodder if it ends up being a dead spell in hand. Even in that situation, most of those types of decks would have a hard dealing with it once it is on the field. I will agree though that Trinket Mage makes it a more viable card option.
My question to the group is what is the fascination with Cascading Cataracts?
What is the main purpose behind running this card? What actual uses do you need to filter for colored mana that badly that your deck couldn't handle in the first place?
Initially i was sceptical about Walking Ballista in a list without Trinket Mage, but it worked great for me so far - and i also like to treat it as a removal spell. Playing a 1/1 Ballista to trade with a Delver is not the ceiling on that card, but i'm always willing to do that. Sometimes Ballista is just 1-for-1 removal, very often it's 2-for-1 or better, sometimes it completely takes over the board (happens most often against DnT, Elves or Infect), and sometimes it's just a big finisher. In my list, i like to play it with Volrath's Stronghold - don't know how good that is right now, but it was great inevitability against Miracles, and if control decks without Deathrite Shaman are a relevant part of the meta again, that would be a nice option to have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skriger
Cascading Cataracts is most likely not good. Thought about it a little bit now, but it's just very rare for me to have lots of mana but not enough colored sources. It could work better in a list without many colored sources and many color requirements, but that would have to be rather extreme (something like Mono-G splashing Atraxa), and even then i'm not sure it's good enough.
I know ppl have tried omniscience in the past. What are their thoughts. Basically like the hybrid sneak Omni build but cloudpost show with Omni. Only need 7 mana with eye for casting the big boys. Running a lot of counters MB and doesn't fold to karakas it loves the card unlike sneak and show. Ponder instead of SDT. Have had some decent success thus far with it. Curious if worth pursuing. Tried 1-2 eureka as well with it and quite an interesting card. Any advice appreciated.
1) The most obvious use, IMO, is Engineered Explosives. It makes it easy to set it all the way up to 5, which hits a lot more things than it did before in a 2-color deck — i.e., Liliana, Jace, Sneak Attack, Back to Basics, Mentor, TNN, etc..Quote:
Originally Posted by Skriger
2) It gives you the ability to make GG (or whatever) off a single land drop. This frees your other land drops for Loci and utility lands. And since land drops are one of the archetype's single most important resources, being able to condense them is worth exploring.
This is actually pretty exciting for a build like Cg, which doesn't want to spend land drops on non-Locus lands if it doesn't have to. The inefficiency of needing two Forests (unless you have a Candle out) was one of the reasons I originally cut Primeval Titans from my lists. I don't know if Cataracts is enough to make it worth running, but I like the idea of getting all my color needs from a single land drop.
3) It opens up some crazy sideboard space and brew space. With that kind of efficient filtering and the Post engine, we can conceivably cast any card in Magic.
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In what matchups does Moment's Peace typically shine?
My meta is mostly consistent of Esper Stoneblade, UR Delver, D&T, Jund, RDW.
moment's peace is for elves/infect/eldrazi aggro. everything else it is very interchangableQuote:
Originally Posted by TLK
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBoozeCube
My problem with cataracts is that it doesn't do anything until you have ~6 mana, and you actually lose a mana in the process
I don't see a problem having 6+ colorless mana to filter in this deck. That's just two Cloudposts and a Candle. You can access this on turn 3.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neko448
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I got wrecked with Postman's 75 last night at my LGS (swapping the 2 Moment's Peace for 2 Blue Elemental Blast since there is a lot of red in my meta).
Round 1 vs Burn:
Win game one due to infinite Glimmerposts. Lose game 2 fairly quickly to a typical Burn hand. Lose game 3 while at 10 life. Price of Progress is good. I think I punted by not leaving up my green source to Crop Rotate for Glacial Chasm, but I didn't think he could kill me from that spot. Oh well.
0-1, 1-2
Round 2 vs D&T:
Easy. Show and Tell -> Emrakul gets there both games. Prime Time was big here too.
1-1, 2-0
Round 3 vs EsperBlade:
My deck literally does nothing for 2 games. I cast 4 Brainstorms in both games and drew nothing. Very weird match.
1-2, 0-2
Not sure if it was bad luck, bad matchups or bad piloting (maybe a combination of all three), but I didn't feel the explosiveness that others seem to experience from playing this deck.
So Cascade cost for 5 just to blow up things at 5? I don't feel it's a decent use of your mana and card options. Oblivion stone cost a slight amount more and destroys more; Perilous Vault kills Marit Lage as well as more items; and subjectively All is Dust can do similar job with same amount of mana invested. Engineered Explosives is used more as a token killer than larger items.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBoozeCube
I can see the attractiveness of being able to produce 5 of any color from Locus lands. To reinforce your perspective, opening hand this feels pretty bad to have in hand, much like having a Glacial Chasm. Being able to produce colored mana early game has always been very essential no matter the variant you are running. I could see myself saying "man I wish this was a XX land instead" more than being excited about Cataract showing up, just like Glacial Chasm. It's a filter land so technically you are not getting all your color needs from a single land since you need other lands to feed into it's ability. I would be much more happier with a Mana Confluence, Reflecting Pool, or Vivid Land in this slot or even a 2nd Cavern of Souls if it's to help cast creatures.Quote:
2) It gives you the ability to make GG (or whatever) off a single land drop. This frees your other land drops for Loci and utility lands. And since land drops are one of the archetype's single most important resources, being able to condense them is worth exploring.
This is actually pretty exciting for a build like Cg, which doesn't want to spend land drops on non-Locus lands if it doesn't have to. The inefficiency of needing two Forests (unless you have a Candle out) was one of the reasons I originally cut Primeval Titans from my lists. I don't know if Cataracts is enough to make it worth running, but I like the idea of getting all my color needs from a single land drop.
3) It opens up some crazy sideboard space and brew space. With that kind of efficient filtering and the Post engine, we can conceivably cast any card in Magic.
It's not the point you can pay to do such a thing, it's the reason we are questioning. Other than engineered explosives, all other spells this deck runs are at most only 2 colors with an attached colorless amount. Honestly running . Needing so much mana filtering in my opinion feels overly complicated when there is simpler and effective strategies that can be used.Quote:
I don't see a problem having 6+ colorless mana to filter in this deck. That's just two Cloudposts and a Candle. You can access this on turn 3.
Unless proven otherwise, I just can't see it making it's way into a 12-post list.
Sorry you got wrecked :-/ But only 3 matches, and imo only 1 unexpected result. To me, burn is a really hard MU, and a loss is something like normal. D&T is usually a good MU, but they can have the nuts while you're flooded or something like that... But okay, so far 1:1 is the "normal" result after these 2 MUs. Esper Blade used to be a good MU, since the games usually take quite some time and the lategame belongs to 12 Post. But if the deck trolls you, like you wrote, it just happens. If you play like 10 matches against Esper Blade, you should have won like 6-7 of them 😉Quote:
Originally Posted by TLK
Been testing a combo-oriented build, with virtually zero protection and clearly focused on hard combo:
// Lands
1 [LG] Karakas
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [MR] Cloudpost
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [8E] Forest (2)
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
2 [UNH] Island
1 [V12] Glacial Chasm
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [EXP] Misty Rainforest
// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [BFZ] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
3 [GPX] Primeval Titan
3 [AER] Walking Ballista
// Spells
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [5E] Brainstorm
3 [CN2] Show and Tell
4 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe
4 [M10] Ponder
3 [M13] Omniscience
3 [DDI] Preordain
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [EMA] Nature's Claim
SB: 2 [OD] Moment's Peace
SB: 2 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 4 [EMA] Force of Will
Candelabra could be added for extra blue filter. Titan and crop could be cut for candles and fow's possibly.
I've started testing this deck again as well. It's been doing alright, but I've got a lot more testing to do. Notable matches so far are RG Combo-lands and a fair share of four color control.
//Lands: 26
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Maze of Ith
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
//Creatures: 10
2 Trinket Mage
4 Primeval Titan
1 Walking Ballista
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
//Artifacts: 8
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Expedition Map
3 Pithing Needle
//Enchantments: 2
1 Soothsaying
1 Sylvan Library
//Instants: 9
4 Brainstorm
3 Crop Rotation
2 Stifle
//Planeswalkers: 2
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
//Sorceries: 3
3 Show and Tell
//Sideboard: 15
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Platinum Emperion
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Force of Will
2 Krosan Grip
2 Warping Wail
Things that my testing has shown me:
When I actually draw into my Soothsaying, I'll tell you how it plays. Theoretically, early game it's a mana sink for a less effective Sensei's Divining Top, and late game it's essentially a Vampiric Tutor that doesn't shuffle when it's done. Is it worth the space? Once again, to be determined.
Stifle was initially Trickbind, but since I was essentially sniping fetchlands most of the time, I decided to risk the one drop one for the time being. If Griselbrand or Split Second become more relevant, I'll switch back.
With Deathrite Shaman being praised as the best creature in the format right now, Pithing Needle is good. Good beyond halting Wasteland.
One thing I may try since I encountered a lot of low curves is siding Chalice of the Void (then again, that's also from the fact I'm coming back from playing MUD-Post and Legends of Colorless/Big Eldrazi for the past year), and Trinket Mage helps them out.
More testing to come, but I will say that I feel the demise of the Classic control of "12-Post" has been greatly exaggerated.
Why not just go full omnishow at that point? That deck is pretty good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
Have you thought about running ancient stirrings here instead of the preordains? Possibly new nissa.
Also imo some number of trinket mages are great if you're running ballistas.
Eureka might be cute with your package as well. How were the lands matchups? Any reports?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mockingbird
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Lands is Pithing Needle or bust.Quote:
Originally Posted by nimkee
Well, it's not just that, but the moment that my opponent sees a Locus land, they're on the Wasteland lock plan, and they're good at it between Life from the Loam, Manabond, and Crucible of Worlds. Maze of Ith is also worth protecting because ii keeps us from dying to the Marit Lage token. One game I was also blindsided by Ghost Quarter, and I would have lost if I hadn't Crop Rotation'ed into a Bojuka Bog.
As soon as I (sigh) start getting MTGO cards I'm planning on testing it, although right now I'm still testing my Static Orb build, and then I have another set of ideas I want to try.. The fact that Cascading Cataracts has indestructible is even more incentive.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBoozeCube
I am curious what you're planning to play with it because that level of filtering + Cloudpost mana, you could play just about any card in the game. Deus of Calamity, Magmatic Force (or any of the others in the cycle), Griselbrand or finisher that Show and Tell/Reanimator normally plays seems like places to start.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotmaster
We'll just have to see now, won't we? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mockingbird
Omni's real weakness is it falters to simple hate and counters. (why its sideboards near its end of dominance ran pyromancers and boseiju). Omni and Sneaky/Omni has terrible game against DnT. This hybrid of 12post - Omni allows for escaping the weaknesses DnT Preyed on (need for Show and tell, not-created-based-wincons, and excess spells). The myr is mostly to experiment with show and tell mirrors and reactive show and tell type cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyborg
::EDIT:: by "myr" I mean shimmer myr, what I'm testing in the mono blue version.
// Lands
1 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [MR] Cloudpost
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
6 [UNH] Island
4 [EXP] Misty Rainforest
1 [EXP] Polluted Delta
// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [BFZ] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
3 [AER] Walking Ballista
// Spells
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [5E] Brainstorm
3 [CN2] Show and Tell
4 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe
4 [M10] Ponder
3 [M13] Omniscience
4 [EMA] Force of Will
3 [OGW] Warping Wail
3 [DDI] Preordain
3 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [MD1] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [SOM] Platinum Emperion
SB: 3 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [MBS] Shimmer Myr
Hello!
Long-time lurker, first-time poster here. Been playing TheBoozeCube's list for some time now, and decided to give the red splash a go. Credit should also be given to user "Itisunfair" who sent me his G/R list.
Went 3-1 at the local tournament. Here's the list and all:
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
3 Taiga
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Forest
2 Maze of Ith
1 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Eye of Ugion
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Expedition Map
4 Crop Rotation
4 Ancient Stirrings
3 Pithing Needle
3 Kozilek's Return
2 Warping Wail
1 All is Dust
2 Ugin, The Spirit Dragon
2 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Worldbreaker
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Sideboard:
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pyroblast
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Trinisphere
Overall good feeling about this list. Matchups were BUG-control (1-2), Goblins (2-1), Standstill (2-0), and Sneak&Show (2-1). I'm thinking of replacing Warping Wail and Worldbreaker. Any suggestions?
I've been deck testing this build below with a group and tossed it around in a small FNM last week. I tested it against Elves, Landstill, Goblins, Jeskai Delver, BU Reanimator, MUD and a few others that aren't coming to mind.
First off, this deck feels fine without Sensei's Divining Top. There is plenty of card selection going on to keep it running fairly smoothly. Ponder works really well with the deck but I really wish they were Brainstorm 5 & 6 to dump useless cards. Oath of Nissa is much better than I anticipated, very good card selection, makes having cloudpost paying for her cost much more stronger. Still haven't gotten Nissa, Steward of Elements running enough to conclude if she fits well. If I can resolve her, she gets ran over very quickly to be of any use. I was running 3 at first but it felt too much so I reduced to 2. I was thinking Caryatid would help keep aggro decks from going too wide but majority of time, they would get blown out from a prowess creature. This build feels like it needs a more ramp side to it. I think it would need to either go heavy Green Sun's Zenith build or go heavy blue control and put repeals and Force of Will. Warping Wail always felt like a dead card in my hand or didn't disrupt the enemy enough. I've been thinking more and more about making Leovold work in the deck. There is a huge influx of combo players and he just wrecks their day.
Side note; Our meta here didn't have many miracle players. Heavy Death and Taxes and Delver Variants. We had a 59 player tournament last weekend. Post SDT ban, we had much more combo decks creep out from the shadows (23 out of 59). Here is a link to the Meta chart (I ran a Eva Green / Rock variant I call "Rock Copter"): Fire & Dice GP Vegas Trial Top 8 | Fire & Dice GP Vegas META
As you can see, a not friendly meta for a Cloudpost player.
//Lands (24)
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Cavern of Souls
4x Cloudpost
1x Eye of Ugin
1x Forest
1x Glacial Chasm
4x Glimmerpost
1x Island
1x Karakas
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Thespian's Stage
4x Tropical Island
//Creature (12)
1x Courser of Kruphix
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1x Emrakul, the Promised End
1x Oracle of Mul Daya
3x Primeval Titan
4x Sylvan Caryatid
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
//Artifact (6)
2x Candelabra of Tawnos
2x Expedition Map
2x Pithing Needle
//Enchantment (3)
3x Oath of Nissa
//Instant (11)
4x Brainstorm
3x Crop Rotation
4x Warping Wail
//Sorcery (2)
2x Ponder
//Planeswalker (2)
2x Nissa, Steward of Elements
//Sideboard (15)
2x Engineered Explosives
4x Krosan Grip
3x Show and Tell
3x Surgical Extraction
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2x Trinisphere
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
I just cannot figure out this deck. What do you even cast with omniscience? Walking Ballista and omniscience seems like such a nonbo
Since the top ban, I've been lost and frankly, I still don't know in which direction to build. I've tackled an Omni build myself with intuition (Neko I can't figure out rock's Omni build either - ballista just doesn't seem to fit :confused:). I tried a more control-ish UG build with Jace, ponder, FoW and even snapcaster. Fooled around with builds running: natural order, oath of nissa, Eureka, etc. all sorts of stuff, but mostly I've been playing this weird thing below (UGW), well just a light W splash. The build is mostly based on Leshrac82 deck only with brainstorm and SnT. I just can't bring myself to drop them. Probably I should, but I guess I need time...
Land (27)
1x Bojuka Bog
4x Cloudpost
1x Dark Depths
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Eye of Ugin
2x Forest
1x Glacial Chasm
4x Glimmerpost
1x Island
1x Karakas
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Savannah
1x Thespian's Stage
3x Tropical Island
1x Vesuva
Artifact (3)
3x Mox Diamond
Creature (12)
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Oracle of Mul Daya
4x Primeval Titan
1x Sylvan Caryatid
1x Tireless Tracker
1x Titania, Protector of Argoth
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
Instant (8)
4x Brainstorm
4x Crop Rotation
Sorcery (7)
4x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Show and Tell
Enchantment (3)
2x Mirri's Guile
1x Sylvan Library
Sideboard (15)
2x Ethersworn Canonist
4x Flusterstorm
3x Krosan Grip
2x Moment's Peace
4x Surgical Extraction
Maybeboard (15)
1x Candelabra of Tawnos
1x Courser of Kruphix
1x Dragonlord Dromoka
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Eternal Witness
1x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Maze of Ith
1x Natural Order
1x Novablast Wurm
1x Progenitor Mimic + Terastodon
1x Rest in Peace
1x Scryb Ranger
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Sylvan Safekeeper
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
The xmage meta seems to have shifted to combo as well. Been playing against all sorts of combo decks. This build can get blown out by combo, but I've had the same issue with the more control-ish build as well (with FoW main!). Gaddock main, like Leshrac82 said, is probably a must in any GSZ build nowadays. The list needs much tweaking, especially the land base, though I didn't have any serious mana issues thus far. I've included a large maybeboard, including cards I tested or plan to test. Some of it is very cheeky (like Novablast wurm :eek:). I'm probably missing some key white card, which I could/should include. I'm very very pleased with canonist; she's the main reason for the W splash. She wins games in the face of the emerging combo infected meta. Again, using the wisdom of Leshrac82 I've included dark depths and have been pleased to have it. Its ability to finish a game on the spot is hugely important. Mirri's Guile has been useful. Mostly I get the best card and then GSZ or fetch for a fresh top deck next turn. Titania and Tracker have enormous potential and have won me several games. When I get them online, I usually don't have to go for the Eldrazi package.
With miracles gone GSZ seems like a reasonable card to play. Though, I don't know if it's correct to pair it with SnT. However, the ability to attack from so many different angles feels great overall.
I'm trying to make Nissa work in my build, i'm also not sure if it's worth it yet - overall: Nissa can be great in grindy matchups, she is ok against combo (certainly not great, but they don't kill her and she can dig for more combo hate) and probably not very good against aggro decks, because they just kill her. Caryatid might help, i tried that too (also because it's great manafixing in a 4-color deck), but i'm not sure how good it defends her. My creature heavy approach is probably better to protect Nissa and doesn't really need Caryatid for that - and playing 4 Caryatids just seems wrong, it's not a great topdeck late in the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skriger
I agree with Warping Wail - i cut that some time ago, tried it again in the new meta, but it just doesn't do enough.
Leovold is playable in my current build, with Atraxa i'm playing the colors anyway. But it's not the nobrainer you would think it is in that situation - Leovold is better if you are already ahead in some way (on board against fair decks, and against combo decks if they need to draw something against your other hatecards in play or in hand). Leovold is not that great if you want to catch up against an aggressive deck or as the only hate card against combo decks. Right now i'm playing him, but i'm still undecided if i want him.
Interesting list. Let's go through it from top to bottom:Quote:
Originally Posted by MechTactical
The lands seem ok, but i would like to play more than just 4 fetchlands - i'm at 6 fetchlands currently, and i cut Glacial Chasm and Vesuva, otherwise the manabase is pretty similar, just other fetchable lands.
Creatures: If you aren't splashin black at all, i don't think Deathrite is really worth it. In my current list i'm trying it without any Deathrites - the problem with Deathrite right now: 1. BR-Reanimator is too fast, it's almost never good enough against them because they go off on turn 1 all the time. 2. Every fair deck is playing 4 Deathrites, that makes our own Deathrite a very unreliable mana producer.
I replaced my Oracle with Courser, in my testing the better blocker and the lifegain and the lower manacost was just the better package over the ramp aspect - Oracle was better while i was still playing Crucible, but that's gone from the deck for good.
I never played 4 Primeval Titans in my deck - i suppose with Show and Tell you kinda have to, but i never played that either. Don't know how good that works, but it could be a good way to attack some fair (mostly BUG) decks that were always problematic for me.
What i'm missing in your deck:
1. Knight of the Reliquary. You should at least try one, it wins me so many games and makes the Dark Depths wins much easier.
2. The black splash: The biggest gain with the black splash is Toxic Deluge for me, having access to a cheap boardwipe wins many games against creature decks.
Also, Atraxa and Spike Weaver are great GSZ targets.
Going through all the cards in your maybeboard:
Candelabra: We attack on enough different angles, there is no reason to play a card that just speeds up the ramp plan.
Courser: Right now my replacement for Oracle.
Dragonlord Dromoka: Thought about that a bit, never actually played it: When i can GSZ for 6, i go for Primeval Titan pretty much always. I don't think i want a different 6 drop. Play Atraxa instead.
Scooze: Pretty much maybeboard for me too. Right now maindeck, sometimes just in the board, sometimes not at all. Scooze alone isn't enough against graveyard decks, but it can be a good follow up after a Crop Rotation to lock them out, and it can keep fair graveyard decks (with Knight of the Reliquary or Goyf for example) under control.
Witness: Also maybeboard. I played it for a while and was happy with it, i cut it because Deathrite Shaman is everywhere. Might still come back anyway.
Knight of the Reliquary: Maindeck card, one of the most important cards in the deck, never without it. (I tried a variation of my build without Knight for a few games, it was considerably worse.)
Maze of Ith: It's fine, but i also cut it - there were just too many lands that didn't produce mana in the deck, i almost never searched for it, so it is gone.
Natural Order: Never tried it, don't think i want it.
Novablast Wurm: I had to look that one up. The most simple counterargument: It costs 7 mana, and when you can GSZ for it, Primetime will be better pretty much every time.
Progenitor Mimic, Terastodon: Same problem, Primetime costs the same or less and is almost always the better GSZ target.
Rest in Peace: Nombo with Titania, probably not fast enough against Reanimator anyway.
Scryb Ranger: Doesn't do enough imo, there are better options against Delver.
Swords to Plowshares: Playable. Played that in some builds, but not right now. It has never been that impressive in this deck.
Sylvan Safekeeper: Nice combo with Titania - but that's it, we don't really want to sacrifice our lands otherwise. I thought about it too, but i don't think it's good enough.
Tabernacle: Might be necessary in your build, i prefer splashing black for Toxic Deluge as a more reliable answer.
I tried different ideas for my build on xmage, wasn't happy with most of them:
1. A build with 4x Chalice maindeck, no 1-drops. I thought that would be good in the new combo infested metagame - but it wasn't: Chalice is the only commonly played lockpiece every combo deck has to be prepared for, so it didn't improve the combo matchups that much, if at all, because i also had to replace my 1 mana combo hate with more expansive cards. And against most fair decks Chalice is pretty bad right now. There is a reason Eldrazi doesn't see much play any more.
2. A very extreme build with pretty much just creatures and lands. Wasn't very good unfortunately, i needed cheap spells to back up the creatures.
Next i wanted to try Nissa, and that idea has evolved into a more blue heavy build with actually 4x Brainstorm. The current list is not really finished, it needs more testing, some of it on xmage, some of it by myself. But this is what i'm currently trying:
61 cards:
Lands (26):
1x Bayou
1x Bojuka Bog
4x Cloudpost
1x Dark Depths
1x Eye of Ugin
2x Forest
4x Glimmerpost
1x Karakas
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Savannah
1x Thespian's Stage
1x Tropical Island
1x Tundra
1x Underground Sea
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Windswept Heath
Creatures (15):
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Gaddock Teeg
2x Tireless Tracker
2x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1x Courser of Kruphix
1x Spike Weaver
1x Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
1x Titania, Protector of Argoth
1x Primeval Titan
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Spells (20):
3x Mox Diamond
4x Brainstorm
2x Crop Rotation
4x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Sylvan Library
2x Nissa, Steward of Elements
1x Golgari Charm
2x Toxic Deluge
Sideboard (15):
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Reclamation Sage
3x Flusterstorm
3x Thoughtseize
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Golgari Charm
1x Krosan Grip
1x Ensnaring Bridge
Apart from testing on xmage, i tried some preboard games by myself against combo decks. The results i had with that:
Against Storm (ANT): 27-23 with a slightly different list without Crop Rotation, so pretty much with just Teeg. 20 games won just by getting Teeg into play, usually on turn 2 or 3. The other 7 games: 1 win because of Leovold, 1 win because of Scooze, 2 wins because of Dark Depths, 3 wins because Storm stumbled so much other stuff was fast enough. I'm pretty sure with Crop Rotation it should be even better. And of course it gets much better postboard, so Storm is a good matchup.
Against Sneak&Show without Omniscience: 19-31 (same lists as i had against Storm, so no Crop Rotation and also notably no Golgari Charm. also no Titania). Teeg and Leovold both got a few wins, Knight/Primetime/Emrakul also got some wins. Overall it wasn't that bad, certainly manageable postboard with lots of hate.
Against Sneak&Show with Omniscience: 8-42 (same list again). The expected terrible result. Pretty much all my wins were because the other deck failed to find the combo. I think my current list is slightly better here. Gets better postboard, but this is clearly a very bad matchup.
Against BR-Reanimator: same list as before: 7-43. That was so bad i added the Crop Rotations and Bojuka Bog. next list: 20-30. Much better results, Crop Rotation did a lot of work. Notable: While Scavenging Ooze didn't do much in the list without Crop Rotation, it was a very solid card to close out the game in the second list - it's not fast enough alone, but it's a good follow up to Crop Rotation. The matchup gets much better postboard, i think the current list is favored against them.
Against Elves: 30-20. I played 2x Walking Ballista in these games, and the Ballistas were really lackluster. They were slightly relevant in maybe 4 or 5 games, but there wasn't a single game i'm sure i won just because of Ballista - that's why i cut them now. On the other hand, Spike Weaver was really strong, especially in combination with Atraxa. Once you have Spike Weaver and Atraxa on the battlefield, as long as your aren't low enough to be burned out with Deathrite Shaman, Elves can't win the game any more. And that still works postboard, they have no answer to these cards. I'm pretty sure this matchup is favorable, things should get slightly better postboard.
Against Mono-Red Sneakattack: (still with the Ballistas and without Titania and G-Charm) 17-13. Teeg has won many games, Dark Depths has also won a few games, Tracker was great. The matchup should get slightly better postboard, so it might be actually favorable. Mox Diamond is a very important tool in this matchup. If they get their combo working, we usually lose - but this deck can often win through a Blood Moon and a Chalice, and many of their hands just have 1 or 2 lockpieces and then you kill them (or lock them out with Teeg) before they draw into combo pieces. Also notable: Atraxa is a nice answer to Chalice (and Atraxa is a good way to race something like Wurmcoil or Inferno Titan).
I need to test some more matchups and also play this build on xmage.
(These numbers look like an incredible number of games, but if you test that like myself, it usually doesn't take much time - for example it took me just 2,5 hours to test the 50 games against Storm. Only the games against Elves took longer because they can get grindy, and i don't plan to test like that against grindy decks.)
Recent list out of Japan, taking some of the Big Eldrazi pieces and slotting them into C/g minus the g:
http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/k/kD07284W/
The top 8 was fairly combo heavy too.
Thoughts on this list?
2 Ancient Tomb
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Cloudpost
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Eye of Ugin
4 Glimmerpost
1 Karakas
2 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Thespian's Stage
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Vesuva
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
3 Endbringer
4 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Warping Wail
2 All Is Dust
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Expedition Map
4 Grim Monolith
4 Pithing Needle
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Sideboard
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Lodestone Golem
2 Spatial Contortion
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Boompile
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Sphere of Resistance
Will UG post as we knew it before the ban ever be good again, or are we relegated to playing more aggressive or combotastic playstyles going forward?