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The spreadsheet has you losing to silk, but your explanation here makes sense to me. Casting Induced Amnesia means a draw at best. Without it, silkster can't win through Ensnaring Bridge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
DD 2-2?
That should put us both at 45 pts, but not change the bannings.
That might have been an error. I'll change it in the spreadsheet, and if silk finds a winning line I'll change it back.Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
EDIT: Already changed, I see. :smile:
I'm only just getting around to checking now. :eek:
When I saw I had the same score as FTW, I figured the results were probably the same, but they're actually different! Looking over it, it's interesting that we both DD against Aesthereal for different reasons too.
I started out by looking by looking at Leyline and Chalice, but then I didn't like that it couldn't act against Leyline+Lotus decks. I quickly realized that I'd rather spend an extra card on Force of Will rather than on Leyline. I then spent the next fifteen minutes with "Force of Will, Misthollow Griffin" as the basis of my deck. Once I caught that mistake, I just looked for the best 3-drop I could find. It didn't even need to be blue, and I think I realized that at the time, but honestly I'm not entirely sure. I think I got lucky that Force of Will was good cause it was the only thing I could think of. I even forgot about Workshop and Empty. :tongue:
Meantime it looks like I have everybody, so let's get round 2 going:
DECKS FOR ROUND 2 OF SEASON 12: Vintage Creatureless Bannathon
1. Asthereal (TO): Mishra's Workshop, Trinisphere, Ensnaring Bridge, Scalding Tongs
2. dte: Urza's saga, Pithing needle, Ancient tomb, Sphere of resistance
3. Phasmoid: Dwarven Hold, Dwarven Hold, Chandra, Awakened Inferno, Chandra, Awakened Inferno
4. Nasst: Mishra's Workshop, Trinisphere, Ensnaring Bridge, Scalding Tongs
5. RoosterCocoa: Ancient Tomb, Sphere of Resistance, Dark Depths, Thespian's Stage
6. GoblinSmashmaster: Lion's Eye Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, From Under the Floorboards
7. alphastryk: Karakas, Mishra’s Factory, Field of Ruin, Serenity
8. FTW: Mishra's Workshop, Trinisphere, Ratchet Bomb, Scalding Tongs
9. silkster: Hive of the Eye Tyrant, Dreadship Reef, Inquisition of Kozilek, Ashiok, Nightmare Muse
10. maxx!: Mishra's Workshop, Trinisphere, Chimeric Idol, Culling Scales
11. Reeplcheep: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Chandra, Awakened Inferno, Leyline of Sanctity, Mercadian Bazaar
Please post your scores and cross-check with the opponents.
I'll create a tab for the round in our Google Spreadsheet, so you can enter your scores there as well: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing
Asthereal's scores for round2 :
1. Asthereal (TO): Mishra's Workshop, Trinisphere, Ensnaring Bridge, Scalding Tongs <-me
No time to cough up something new, so let's stick to my deck from round 1.
2. dte: Urza's saga, Pithing needle, Ancient tomb, Sphere of resistance WL 3-3
OTP I cast everything and win. OTD, assuming Saga can make two guys, you should race me.
3. Phasmoid: Dwarven Hold, Dwarven Hold, Chandra, Awakened Inferno, Chandra, Awakened Inferno LL 0-6
4. Nasst: Mishra's Workshop, Trinisphere, Ensnaring Bridge, Scalding Tongs WL 3-3
5. RoosterCocoa: Ancient Tomb, Sphere of Resistance, Dark Depths, Thespian's Stage WL 3-3
OTP I get Bridge, OTD I don't and lose to the 20/20.
6. GoblinSmashmaster: Lion's Eye Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, From Under the Floorboards WW 6-0
OTD, you make 7 2/2 guys. I make Bridge. You attack for 14. I make Tongs and have 1 card in hand now, so you can't attack anymore. Tongs kills you.
7. alphastryk: Karakas, Mishra’s Factory, Field of Ruin, Serenity LL 0-6
You have an answer for everything I can do.
8. FTW: Mishra's Workshop, Trinisphere, Ratchet Bomb, Scalding Tongs LL 0-6
Ah, the anti-mirror. The one who plays Tongs first would win, but you have an answer for mine, so I always lose.
9. silkster: Hive of the Eye Tyrant, Dreadship Reef, Inquisition of Kozilek, Ashiok, Nightmare Muse LL 0-6
10. maxx!: Mishra's Workshop, Trinisphere, Chimeric Idol, Culling Scales LL 0-6
More anti-mirror tech. I should have spent more than a minute on my deck.
11. Reeplcheep: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Chandra, Awakened Inferno, Leyline of Sanctity, Mercadian Bazaar LL 0-6
Total: 15 points
1. Asthereal (TO): Mishra's Workshop, Trinisphere, Ensnaring Bridge, Scalding Tongs
4-1. OTP I outsphere you. OTD you play trini first, then bridge not to lose. On my side I go tomb, saga, sphere. Tongs never resolves, but my 2/2 is to big.
Edit 3-3, tongs cost 2 (or rather three here).
2. dte: Urza's saga, Pithing needle, Ancient tomb, Sphere of resistance
Me. Last round I hesitated with this deck, which would have scored 55/60, but thought playing double lotus was more fun, and got punished by :/
3. Phasmoid: Dwarven Hold, Dwarven Hold, Chandra, Awakened Inferno, Chandra, Awakened Inferno
6-0. Needle
10
4. Nasst: Mishra's Workshop, Trinisphere, Ensnaring Bridge, Scalding Tongs
4-1, see Asthereal.
14
Edit 3-3
5. RoosterCocoa: Ancient Tomb, Sphere of Resistance, Dark Depths, Thespian's Stage
6-0, needle on stage. I didn't even realise depths was not on the banning list! This would have been a bomb last round too.
20
6. GoblinSmashmaster: Lion's Eye Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, From Under the Floorboards
3-3. I thought of this deck, especially as it gets under force of negation (which showed no play). I chose saga for stealing more points over workshop, I thought Asthereal's deck was great and would be played.
23
7. alphastryk: Karakas, Mishra’s Factory, Field of Ruin, Serenity
1-4. Tough vs serenity, particularly with a third land to play it over sphere. I did not thought of the card at all. It looks like a very well designed deck vs the meta.
tomb, sphere // land
saga // land
token // land. You field my tomb, it is a draw. If you play serenity, then I would needle factory for the win.
OTD, you win
24
8. FTW: Mishra's Workshop, Trinisphere, Ratchet Bomb, Scalding Tongs
6-0. T1 saga needle on bomb, T2 and 3 making tokens wins.
30
Edit: Still 6-0, tongs are too slow to matter.
9. silkster: Hive of the Eye Tyrant, Dreadship Reef, Inquisition of Kozilek, Ashiok, Nightmare Muse
6-0. OTP needle wins. OTD you inquisition needle, but my 2 3/3s win the game vs ashiok (if it resolves on time vs one sphere).
36
10. maxx!: Mishra's Workshop, Trinisphere, Chimeric Idol, Culling Scales
6-0. I outsphere you, as you cannot play scales before I play sphere. the 2 3/3 tokens beat the idol.
42
11. Reeplcheep: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Chandra, Awakened Inferno, Leyline of Sanctity, Mercadian Bazaar
6-0. I win both on two life!
Needle on either bazaar or chandra ensure you cannot win.
I have to play sphere as well to get a 3/3 and not die to my own token upkeep (I take 2 a turn, so you have to take 3, and I cannot have two tokens).
T1 saga, needle, T2 tomb, sphere (18), T3 token 3/3 (16). Then it goes 14/17 (me/you), 12/14, 10/11, 8/8, 6/5, 4/2, 2/0.
48
Edit, 46. Tongs cost 2.
Went pretty well!
A meta much more diverse than last week, and so surprise to not see a single force!
8. FTW: Mishra's Workshop, Trinisphere, Ratchet Bomb, Scalding Tongs
Shop seemed superior to FoN and combo, but I underestimated how many people would treat Asthereal's last deck as Backbuild.
If I wasn't so worried about losing to 1/1 Goblins (or 7 2/2 Zombies, apparently) I would have played my other deck.
1. Asthereal (TO): OTP my Tongs are faster. OTD if you play Tongs first, Ratchet @ 2 kills it, then I play mine. WW 6-0
2. dte: I thought I came ready to beat Saga and Sphere, but Needle shuts me down. Nice deck. LL 0-6
3. Phasmoid: I can eventually Ratchet the 1st Chandra, but still have Emblems, and you play a 2nd. LL 0-6
4. Nasst: Same as Asthereal. WW 6-0
5. RoosterCocoa: One MU where I miss Bridge. LL 0-6
6. GoblinSmashmaster: Ratchet @ 0 kills all the tokens. WW 6-0
7. alphastryk: Ratchet Bomb awkwardly can't kill Factory. LL 0-6
9. silkster: OTP 3sphere slows down Inquisition, but Ratchet Bomb still can't answer both threats. LL 0-6
10. maxx!: If you play Idol, I play Ratchet, then you play Scales. I just realized I can't distract Scales with Tongs or force you to blow up your own Idol, so Ratchet Bomb doesn't do enough. LL 0-6
11. Reeplcheep: DD 2-2
20 points (6 wins, 2 draws, 10 loss)
Why would Tongs not resolve? It costs just 2 mana, +1 from Sphere isn't a problem and Trini always gets checked last. We're already at 3 so it's no problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by dte
Or did they change Trini rules again?
Nope, trini are still the same rules. I somehow assumed tongs costed 3, did not even checked, so it is 3-3 indeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
I'll update my results, it should matter against others too.
As idol > tongs, you have to play bomb first, and scale can kill it before it gets 3 counters?Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
me: Dwarven Hold, Dwarven Hold, Chandra, Awakened Inferno, Chandra, Awakened Inferno
1. Asthereal (TO): Mishra's Workshop, Trinisphere, Ensnaring Bridge, Scalding Tongs WW 6-0
I cast a Chandra on T6, and goldfish between my T11 and my T12.
2. dte: Urza's saga, Pithing needle, Ancient tomb, Sphere of resistance LL 0-6
Needle shuts down Chandra, and then I lose to a Construct.
3. This is me.
4. Nasst: Mishra's Workshop, Trinisphere, Ensnaring Bridge, Scalding Tongs WW 6-0
I cast a Chandra on T6, and goldfish between my T11 and my T12.
5. RoosterCocoa: Ancient Tomb, Sphere of Resistance, Dark Depths, Thespian's Stage LL 0-6
Marit Lage smash
6. GoblinSmashmaster: Lion's Eye Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, From Under the Floorboards LL 0-6
Zombies smash
7. alphastryk: Karakas, Mishra’s Factory, Field of Ruin, Serenity LL 0-6
Mishra's Factory attacks on T2, and on T3 or T4 or T5, Field of Ruin limits me to whichever land I play later.
Mishra's Factory won't be a creature on my turns, so I can't target it, I will lose to it on your T12 if I don't win first.
That is not enough time for a T2 storage land to store 12, so I cast only 1 Chandra, and do that on T9.
Even when I am OTP, that would not win for me until your T14.
8. FTW: Mishra's Workshop, Trinisphere, Ratchet Bomb, Scalding Tongs WW 6-0
I cast one Chandra on T6, and will have another ready to cast starting on T10.
Thus you get at least one fire emblem on each of my turns T10,T11,...,T14,T15 , so I win no later than your T16.
9. silkster: Hive of the Eye Tyrant, Dreadship Reef, Inquisition of Kozilek, Ashiok, Nightmare Muse WW 6-0
See my "hopefully-correct-this-time analysis" post on the next page.
10. maxx!: Mishra's Workshop, Trinisphere, Chimeric Idol, Culling Scales LL 0-6
I lose to the non-idle Idol.
11. Reeplcheep: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Chandra, Awakened Inferno, Leyline of Sanctity, Mercadian Bazaar WW 6-0
Chandra's +2 doesn't target, so both Tabernacle and LoS are dead against me. I cast a Chandra on T6. That one will have
10 loyalty when my T7 ends, which is before you can cast your Chandra, so yours can't kill mine and mine kills yours.
30 points , even though the "can't be countered" part did exactly nothing this round
(I specifically looked for such a card, since FoN is still legal.)
Also, my original analysis post for my match against silkster was wrong because I had not noticed
that Chandra was Legendary. :-) Fortunately, that doesn't actually affect any of my results.
11. Reeplcheep: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Chandra, Awakened Inferno, Leyline of Sanctity, Mercadian Bazaar
I lost a bunch of matches last week by respecting tabernacle; so I had to play it this week if no one else would.
1. Asthereal (TO): Mishra's Workshop, Trinisphere, Ensnaring Bridge, Scalding Tongs
WW 6-0
2. dte: Urza's saga, Pithing needle, Ancient tomb, Sphere of resistance
Just barely lose the race per above. LL 0-6
3. Phasmoid: Dwarven Hold, Dwarven Hold, Chandra, Awakened Inferno, Chandra, Awakened Inferno
The bigger greedier version of my deck. LL 0-6
4. Nasst: Mishra's Workshop, Trinisphere, Ensnaring Bridge, Scalding Tongs
WW 6-0
5. RoosterCocoa: Ancient Tomb, Sphere of Resistance, Dark Depths, Thespian's Stage
I thought dark depths was banned as it was under discussion. LL 0-6
6. GoblinSmashmaster: Lion's Eye Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, From Under the Floorboards
Tabernacle WW 6-0
7. alphastryk: Karakas, Mishra’s Factory, Field of Ruin, Serenity
Field of ruin LL 0-6
8. FTW: Mishra's Workshop, Trinisphere, Ratchet Bomb, Scalding Tongs
How are you killing me if you use bomb on Chandra??DD 2-2WW 6-0
9. silkster: Hive of the Eye Tyrant, Dreadship Reef, Inquisition of Kozilek, Ashiok, Nightmare Muse
Storage lands have a ton of trouble pushing through tabernacle. I can save Leyline for the first “recoil” and race with three emblems. ?
10. maxx!: Mishra's Workshop, Trinisphere, Chimeric Idol, Culling Scales
Scales is blank but I can’t answer the turtle. LL 0-6
8 W 12 L for 24/60?? Playing a hard anti-meta deck is risky business.
I thought Depths was banned too, otherwise Sphere + Depths looks a lot better than Shop + 3ball. Didn't look too closely.
CMC "equal to", not less than. Bomb @ 6 kills Chandra without killing Tongs, then my Tongs has a head start on your 1 emblem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reeplcheep
I was tempted to play the Turtle, but it plays badly with needing Ratchet Bomb @ 3 to kill Ensnaring Bridge.
I think he meant that then you cannot remove leyline.Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
Oh, I forgot Tongs targets instead of "each opponent" like most of those effects.Quote:
Originally Posted by dte
Tongs, most misunderstood card (I misread the cmc, you the effect), in a round that included trinisphere, tabernacle, LED, storelands, stage, culling scales and madness cards...Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
4CB is weird.
Did I screw up too? Ratchet bomb doesn’t stop me from making the first emblem and killing Leyline isn’t fast enough to win the race. WW 6-0?Quote:
Originally Posted by dte
1. Asthereal (TO): Mishra's Workshop, Trinisphere, Ensnaring Bridge, Scalding Tongs
Anything you play out gets blown up by Serenity, anything you hold gets stuck in your hand after I Field your land. WW
6-0
2. dte: Urza's saga, Pithing needle, Ancient tomb, Sphere of resistance
*Disagreement* If you ever play out Tomb, I Field it ASAP, then Serenity answers anything else you do (including any Constructs and Saga itself, which needs Tomb to produce a threat anyways). If you play Saga and try to hold Needle for Factory, I wait out Saga and still have Serenity for Needle. If you hold Saga + Needle I can hold Serenity. Any waiting game I win with Factory. WW
6-0
3. Phasmoid: Dwarven Hold, Dwarven Hold, Chandra, Awakened Inferno, Chandra, Awakened Inferno
Comes down to a race, and Factory wins before a Change wins from a single Storage land on your turn 2, assuming I Field the first one. WW
6-0
4. Nasst: Mishra's Workshop, Trinisphere, Ensnaring Bridge, Scalding Tongs
Anything you play out gets blown up by Serenity, anything you hold gets stuck in your hand after I Field your land. WW
6-0
5. RoosterCocoa: Ancient Tomb, Sphere of Resistance, Dark Depths, Thespian's Stage
I don't care about Sphere and Karakas beats Marit Lage. WW
6-0
6. GoblinSmashmaster: Lion's Eye Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, From Under the Floorboards
Tokens, my major weakness. LL
0-6
7. alphastryk: Karakas, Mishra’s Factory, Field of Ruin, Serenity
me
8. FTW: Mishra's Workshop, Trinisphere, Ratchet Bomb, Scalding Tongs
Anything you play out gets blown up by Serenity, anything you hold gets stuck in your hand after I Field your land. Even if you had Powder Keg instead of Ratchet Bomb to kill Factory you can't keep it in play. WW
6-0
9. silkster: Hive of the Eye Tyrant, Dreadship Reef, Inquisition of Kozilek, Ashiok, Nightmare Muse
Field beats storage land and Inquisition doesn't stop Factory. WW
6-0
10. maxx!: Mishra's Workshop, Trinisphere, Chimeric Idol, Culling Scales
Anything you play out gets blown up by Serenity, anything you hold gets stuck in your hand after I Field your land (If you play out Scales I wait it out and hold Serenity). WW
6-0
11. Reeplcheep: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Chandra, Awakened Inferno, Leyline of Sanctity, Mercadian Bazaar
Field stops your storage land and Factory doesn't care about Leyline. WW
6-0
Total: 54 points, might be the best round I've ever had
You can't cast Serenity through Sphere of Resistance if you've already used Field of Ruin, so the Field ASAP -> Serenity line does not work.Quote:
Originally Posted by alphastryk
Nice deck otherwise! Great read of the meta on Shop/Tomb artifact decks.
5. RoosterCocoa: Ancient Tomb, Sphere of Resistance, Dark Depths, Thespian's Stage
1. Asthereal (TO): Mishra's Workshop, Trinisphere, Ensnaring Bridge, Scalding Tongs
OTP I get Sphere and you can only play Tongs, OTD you get Bridge. WL
2. dte: Urza's saga, Pithing needle, Ancient tomb, Sphere of resistance
I can't beat Pithing Needle. LL
3. Phasmoid: Dwarven Hold, Dwarven Hold, Chandra, Awakened Inferno, Chandra, Awakened Inferno
You can't do anything about Marit Lage. WW
4. Nasst: Mishra's Workshop, Trinisphere, Ensnaring Bridge, Scalding Tongs
OTP I get Sphere and you can only play Tongs, OTD you get Bridge. WL
6. GoblinSmashmaster: Lion's Eye Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, From Under the Floorboards
OTP you can't play anything through Sphere. OTD you win too fast for me to make Marit Lage. WL
7. alphastryk: Karakas, Mishra’s Factory, Field of Ruin, Serenity
Marit Lage dies to Krakas. LL
8. FTW: Mishra's Workshop, Trinisphere, Ratchet Bomb, Scalding Tongs
Marit Lage has indestructible, so you can't stop it. WW
9. silkster: Hive of the Eye Tyrant, Dreadship Reef, Inquisition of Kozilek, Ashiok, Nightmare Muse
You can't do anything about Marit Lage. WW
10. maxx!: Mishra's Workshop, Trinisphere, Chimeric Idol, Culling Scales
You can't do anything about Marit Lage. WW
11. Reeplcheep: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Chandra, Awakened Inferno, Leyline of Sanctity, Mercadian Bazaar
You can't do anything about Marit Lage. WW
13W 0D 7L = 39
I talked myself out of submitting this last round when it would have almost swept the field, and figured I might as well submit it while there were still unbanned lands that easily produced 2 mana.
maxx!: Mishra's Workshop, Trinisphere, Chimeric Idol, Culling Scales
1. Asthereal (TO): Mishra's Workshop, Trinisphere, Ensnaring Bridge, Scalding Tongs
I assumed this would be here and I wanted a way to beat Ensnaring Bridge, hence the Culling Scales. 6-0
2. dte: Urza's saga, Pithing needle, Ancient tomb, Sphere of resistance
Sphere stops me from playing Scales, and Needle shuts off Idol after that. 0-6
3. Phasmoid: Dwarven Hold, Dwarven Hold, Chandra, Awakened Inferno, Chandra, Awakened Inferno
Hmmm... Culling Scales and Trinisphere are both blanks, but Chimeric Idol is probably the exact type of threat I want against Chandra. Pretty sure I race this easily:
OTD
T1 Dwarven Hold / Chimeric Idol
T2 Dwarven Hold (0c 1c) / Attack (17)
T3 Don't untap (1c 2c) / Attack (14)
T4 Don't untap (2c 3c) / Attack (11)
T5 Don't untap (3c 4c) / Attack (8)
T6 Chandra, +2 (8L)(0c 1c) / Attack (19 v 5)
T7 Don't untap (1c 2c), +2 (10L) / Attack (17 v 2)
T7 Don't untap (2c 3c), +2 (12L) / Attack (14 v -1)
6-0
4. Nasst: Mishra's Workshop, Trinisphere, Ensnaring Bridge, Scalding Tongs
See Asthereal. 6-0
5. RoosterCocoa: Ancient Tomb, Sphere of Resistance, Dark Depths, Thespian's Stage
Dark Depths did not enter my mind at all for this season because we always have it banned! This is a good deck. 0-6
6. GoblinSmashmaster: Lion's Eye Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, From Under the Floorboards
OTP I get 3ball and you're locked out. OTD I can't beat your Zombies. 3-3
7. alphastryk: Karakas, Mishra’s Factory, Field of Ruin, Serenity
This is designed to beat Shop decks, and it sure does. 0-6
8. FTW: Mishra's Workshop, Trinisphere, Ratchet Bomb, Scalding Tongs
Idol races Tongs, and if you ever play Ratchet Bomb then I play Culling Scales and kill it before it can blow up my Idol. 6-0
9. silkster: Hive of the Eye Tyrant, Dreadship Reef, Inquisition of Kozilek, Ashiok, Nightmare Muse
OTD you Inquisition my Idol and I can't win. OTP looks close, but I think you might stabilize in time.
OTP
T1 Idol / Inquisition (take Scales)
T2 Attack (17) / Reef
T3 Attack (14), EOT add counter (1c) / Pass
T4 Attack (11), EOT add counter (2c) / Pass
T5 Attack (8), EOT add counter (3c) / Pass
T6 Attack (5), EOT add counter (4c) / Ashiok
You can +1 every turn to chump while you build up storage counters for your manland and loyalty counters on Ashiok. Alternatively, I could Trinisphere first to save my Scales from Inquisition, but you can still easily exile Idol with Ashiok's -3 ability. 0-6
10. maxx!: Mishra's Workshop, Trinisphere, Chimeric Idol, Culling Scales
This is me :]
11. Reeplcheep: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Chandra, Awakened Inferno, Leyline of Sanctity, Mercadian Bazaar
A pure race of Idol vs Chandra. I get in a ton of damage before Chandra lands, and Chandra can't kill Idol since it's not a creature on your turn. 6-0
6+0+6+6+0+3+0+6+0+6 = 33
Shop seemed better than Force this round, and combo (LED, Storm, Dark Rit, etc.) all went 3-3 against Shop decks with Spheres. I wanted a threat that was faster than Tongs, and once I settled on Chimeric Idol I knew my last card had to beat Ensnaring Bridge. Culling Scales felt pretty good since my whole deck costs 3, but I did not expect so many storage land decks that can cast more expensive cards. Looks like it still worked out, especially with my threat beating Chandra all by itself.
Nice tech with Scales + Idol. I wanted to play Idol to have a faster clock than Tongs, but I was so lasered in on Ratchet Bomb, and Ratchet does not play well with Idol vs Bridge. Culling Scales solves that problem well and beats Ratchet in the mirror.Quote:
Originally Posted by maxx!
Edit 2: I'm still not seeing a way for dte to force the draw:Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
d t1: Tomb, Sphere
a t1: land #1 (order does not matter)
d t2: Saga to to create a threat, forcing Serenity to come down.
a t2: land #2
d t3: Use Tomb + Saga to make a Construct
a t3: Tap out for Serenity
d t4: Hold Needle to not lose it to Serenity
a t4: Serenity triggers, blowing up Sphere, Saga and Construct. Activate Field to kill Tomb. dte now has no permanents and Needle is stranded forever.
(Serenity specifically blowing up Urza's Saga because it is an enchantment was something I factored into my deck design, was important in beating my gauntlet decks with Saga).
That sounds right, it is 6-0 for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by alphastryk
9. silkster: Hive of the Eye Tyrant, Dreadship Reef, Inquisition of Kozilek, Ashiok, Nightmare Muse
1. Asthereal (TO): Mishra's Workshop, Trinisphere, Ensnaring Bridge, Scalding Tongs
WW
2. dte: Urza's Saga, Pithing Needle, Ancient Tomb, Sphere of Resistance
Wow, this deck has it all. Sphere lockdown, Needle to stop charge lands and planeswalkers, and enough mana to play through Trinisphere.
LL
3. Phasmoid: Dwarven Hold, Dwarven Hold, Chandra, Awakened Inferno, Chandra, Awakened Inferno
Dwarven Hold to play around Needle? I feel like like a guy showing up to a modern tournament with a standard deck.
Kind of close, but I think it's a loss. I might look more carefully later.
LL
4. Nasst: Mishra's Workshop, Trinisphere, Ensnaring Bridge, Scalding Tongs
WW
5. RoosterCocoa: Ancient Tomb, Sphere of Resistance, Dark Depths, Thespian's Stage
Hunh, I forgot about Depths.
LL
6. GoblinSmashmaster: Lion's Eye Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, From Under the Floorboards
I did remember to look for cards with LED! But somehow I forgot about From Under the Floorboards, even though I've almost submitted it before (for the Epic round, I think).
LL
7. alphastryk: Karakas, Mishra’s Factory, Field of Ruin, Serenity
A very nice use of Field of Ruin. I love that after opponent shows their land, you can play Serenity through Trinisphere and the slowness is really important because it catches their next spell before you're able to remove their land.
LL
8. FTW: Mishra's Workshop, Trinisphere, Ratchet Bomb, Scalding Tongs
WW
10. maxx!: Mishra's Workshop, Trinisphere, Chimeric Idol, Culling Scales
I take 15 damage before stabilizing on turn 6.
WW
11. Reeplcheep: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Chandra, Awakened Inferno, Leyline of Sanctity, Mercadian Bazaar
On the draw: T6 Ashiok+1 to 6; T7 +1 to 7 and a second 2/3. The only potential reason to wait on Chandra is to be able to cast her two turns in a row, but that's far too slow. So you play Chandra. I'm out of range of the -X, and +2 or -3 then she gets bounced and I can get 7 more loyalty before you can play her again.
WW
10W, 10L, straight down the middle if I made no mistakes.
Once again, I completely forgot about very well-known strategies because they're just always banned for most of the rounds I've played. It was like when we started the pauper season and everyone forgot about Burning Inquity.
I feel like this is the rare deck that can actually use Mana Crypt.Quote:
Originally Posted by RoosterCocoa
ZombieSmashmaster Results for Round "Spheres"
1. Asthereal (TO): Mishra's Workshop, Trinisphere, Ensnaring Bridge, Scalding Tongs
Bridge 0-6
2. dte: Urza's saga, Pithing needle, Ancient tomb, Sphere of resistance
Zombie smash, then sphere 3-3
3. Phasmoid: Dwarven Hold, Dwarven Hold, Chandra, Awakened Inferno, Chandra, Awakened Inferno
Zombie smash! 6-0
4. Nasst: Mishra's Workshop, Trinisphere, Ensnaring Bridge, Scalding Tongs
Bridge 0-6
5. RoosterCocoa: Ancient Tomb, Sphere of Resistance, Dark Depths, Thespian's Stage
Zombie smash, then sphere 3-3
6. GoblinSmashmaster: Lion's Eye Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, From Under the Floorboards
That's me, playing bigger Goblins!
7. alphastryk: Karakas, Mishra’s Factory, Field of Ruin, Serenity
Zombie smash! 6-0
8. FTW: Mishra's Workshop, Trinisphere, Ratchet Bomb, Scalding Tongs
Bomb 0-6
9. silkster: Hive of the Eye Tyrant, Dreadship Reef, Inquisition of Kozilek, Ashiok, Nightmare Muse
Zombie smash! 6-0
10. maxx!: Mishra's Workshop, Trinisphere, Chimeric Idol, Culling Scales
Zombie smash, then sphere 3-3
11. Reeplcheep: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Chandra, Awakened Inferno, Leyline of Sanctity, Mercadian Bazaar
Tabernacle 0-6
Total: 27 points
Rulewise, random effects are detrimental to the controller of an effect or the owner of the spell/permanent responsible for it?Quote:
Originally Posted by silkster
That might change the playability of mana crypt (even if I think it is much more playable than thought of).
I was close to play the same deck, I thought a combo deck that beats force of negation would be crazy good. Turns out FoN was not played at all. With a tomb over the third LED it was +12 though.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoblinSmashmaster
Exactly! So Mana Crypt is mostly really bad because you only get 6 more turns after you play it, and Stage+Depths is one of very few ways to win that fast.Quote:
Originally Posted by dte
9. silkster: Hive of the Eye Tyrant , Dreadship Reef , Inquisition of Kozilek , Ashiok, Nightmare Muse
vs
me: Dwarven Hold , Dwarven Hold , Chandra, Awakened Inferno , Chandra, Awakened Inferno
is the one of my matches that I had not worked out before this post. Inquisition is dead against me and I had
a quite long analysis here, which missed the relevance of the Legendary type, pointed out by Asthereal below.
I fear Chandra is legendary by definition, so you can't have two of her at the same time and keep both in play. You'll have to sacrifice one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phasmoid
Ah, I completely missed that. I'll have to check my other results too, although I _think_ none of the others involved me having both at the same time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
Yeah, it's a bit confusing, as usually the Legendary thing is literally mentioned on the card, but in the case of planeswalkers, it's the character that's Legendary, not the card itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phasmoid
So you can't have both a Jace Beleren and a Jace, the Mind Sculptor in play at the same time. As the second enters the battlefield, you'll have to choose one and sac it.
And as you can see from the text on both, the old Jace doesn't even have the word Legendary in its type line, but Jace TMS does.
Actually, you now can have two different planeswalkers with the same type - they changed them all to be Legendary instead to make the rules for different permanent types more consistent. In this case however, two Legendaries with the same name can't be in play at the same time for the same player.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
hopefully-correct-this-time analysis for
9. silkster: Hive of the Eye Tyrant , Dreadship Reef , Inquisition of Kozilek , Ashiok, Nightmare Muse
vs
me: Dwarven Hold , Dwarven Hold , Chandra, Awakened Inferno , Chandra, Awakened Inferno
, which is the one of my matches that I had not worked out corrctly before this post.
Inquisition is dead against me and I claim I win both, so suppose I am OTD. I play my lands on
T1 and T2, and will not cast either Chandra before T9 unless silkster has already cast Ashiok.
if we reach my T8 without silkster having cast Ashiok:
I cast one Chandra on my T8, and +2 it that turn. As my T8 ends, it has 8 loyalty and silkster has a
fire emblem, so silkster loses no later than silkster's T28 upkeep if silkster doesn't win before then.
Hive's attacks are no sooner than T6,T11,T16,T21,T26,T31 , which is too slow,
so silkster would need to cast Ashiok and make something stick as a result.
Until silkster casts Ashiok, I keep 1 Chandra in hand.
Ashiok's -7 can't be activated the turn it's cast, and wouldn't help at that point even if it could.
Ashiok's +1 also won't make something stick, since I -6 my alread-on-the-battlefield
Chandra to kill Ashiok, cast my other Chandra, put my old Chandra into my
graveyard due to the legend rule, and -3 my new Chandra to kill the Nightmare.
Thus, assume that silkster casts Ashiok before my T8.
Dreadship Reef can't have gotten to 9 stored, so silkster
can't animate Hive the same turn as silkster casts Ashiok.
If silkster uses the -3 on Ashiok, then there was no point in casting Ashiok.
The -3 has no other targets, so silkster uses the +1. To cast Ashiok, Dreadship Reef
needed to have uptapped with at least 4 stored, which doesn't happen before T6.
Thus on the next turn, my lands untap with at least 3,4 stored, so I cast a Chandra.
I -6 that Chandra, trading it with Ashiok. I spent 6 mana and missed 2 storings
(on the same turn), so I cast my other Chandra on T10, and +2 her that turn.
Casting Ashiok spent at least 4 storage and skipped a storing, so Dreadship Reef
goes to 4 stored on silkster's T10, which means Hive can't attack before my T10.
The Nightmare attacks at most 4 times before my T10, so I will have at least
12 life when I get an 8-loyalty Chandra and silkster gets a fire emblem.
if silkster double-attacks Chandra on T11:
Reef goes to 0 stored, Chandra goes to 3 loyalty, and I will still have at least 12 life.
I +2 Chandra on my T11, bringing her to 5 loyalty and giving silkster another fire emblem.
Hive can't attack again on T12, so I -3 Chandra on my T12.
That kills the Nightmare, so I take at most 2 more damage from it.
Hive's subsequent attacks are no sooner than T16 and T21, dealing at most
6 damage to me, and I don't even take that much damage, since silkster
loses no later than silkster's T21 upkeep to the at least 2 fire emblems.
Thus I win with more than 4 life remaining.
if on silkster's T11, the Nightmare attacks Chandra and Hive does not animate:
I will still have at least 12 life, and Chandra goes to 6 loyalty.
I +2 her on my T11, bringing her back to 8 loyalty and giving silkster another fire emblem.
I -3 Chandra on my T12, killing the Nightmare, so I take at most 2 more damage from it.
Hive's attacks are no sooner than T12,T16,T21 , dealing at most 9
damage to me, and I don't even take that much damage, since silkster
loses no later than silkster's T21 upkeep to the at least 2 fire emblems.
Thus I win with more than 1 life remaining.
otherwise:
I -3 Chandra on my T11, killing the Nightmare.
Hive can't animate more than once before T16, so Chandra can't die before then,
since either Hive didn't attack her or Hive animated but didn't attack her.
I +2 Chandra on each of my turns after T11. That happens more than twice
before T16, and more than twice for each of Hive's subsequent attacks.
Thus Chandra does not die, so there is no point in attacking her, and silkster will lose to
accumulating fire emblems on the upkeep of silkster's T17 if silkster doesn't win before then.
That means the Nightmare attacks me on T11, and Hive attacks me as often as it can.
Hive 3 damage on T11 and another 3 on T16, but its next attack would be T21, which is too late.
Thus I win with at least 4 life remaining.
Well, that was why I picked Dwarven Hold, but between submitting my deck and the deadline, I realized that doesn't help my deck,Quote:
Originally Posted by silkster
since although Needle doesn't affect my lands, it does shut down my Chandras. (I decided, whatever, and stuck with my deck anyway.)
(Also, my previous post has a full analysis.)
WTF I just looked it up!Quote:
Originally Posted by alphastryk
Apparently not in the right place... :tongue:
My understanding is that it's the latter: detrimental to the player responsible for its existence, even if the other player controls itQuote:
Originally Posted by dte
(I would prefer an epsilon exception -
if for all positive epsilon, you have a strategy which would give you at least a certain
result with probability greater than 1-epsilon, then you get at least that result
- but I believe we have some precedent from an Eldrazi shuffler that this thread doesn't even have a probability-zero exception.)
Why would that be true?Quote:
Originally Posted by Phasmoid
The rule right now says "random effects are always in favor of the opponent".
And that opponent is the one who is opponent to the controller of the card or effect, right?
If we're discussing whether Donateing a Mana Crypt should be a way to win, I'd say it should be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
Well - whether-or-not it's actually true - it would be true to
slightly-more discourage the use of cards that create random effects.
Also, the quote from the OP is actually
"Random effects always have the effect that is most favorable to the opponent." .
(The difference matters when using search to find that part of your post.)
When the effect has a controller, I agree with your interpretation of
that quote, since that corresponds to when MtG text uses "an opponent" .
When there is no controller - such as a
"would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, ... shuffle it into its owners library instead."
card moving from a zone that's neither the battlefield or the stack,
while there was already 1 or more cards in that player's library -
I imagine you would say the owner of the card, and I am not aware of any current
cases in which that would differ from, player responsible for the effect's existence.
(A hypothetical permanent card with
"All cards in hands have [the replace-with-shuffle ability I referred to above]."
would cause those to sometimes differ.)
For Donateing a Mana Crypt, I'm giving 3 example decks
- albeit not ones which would be legal this season -
in case my explanation would otherwise be unclear.
ManaCrypt: Island , Mana Crypt , Glacial Wall , Donate
MonoGreen: Forest , Forest , Forest , Leatherback Baloth
BackBuild: Veldt , Helix Pinnacle , Traproot Kami , Green Scarab
I agree with you that the result of the current rule is, MC beats both MG and BB.
For MC vs MG, I also agree that that is what the result should be, though for me,
that's because if a coin keeps getting flipped, the probability of never losing 7 flips is zero.
For MC vs BB, I think MC should lose, even though the current rule has it win.
I'm all for a Donated Mana Crypt being a win condition, which aligns with my understanding of the rulesQuote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
The owner of the Emrakul's card is actually the controller of the shuffle effect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phasmoid
Otherwise I think the last interpretation would be weird, as it leaves a lot of interpretation. Currently if you submitted infinite life, recursion and mana clash and I mindslave you, I win the game, even if you went for a billion life two turns ago. With your interpretation, infinite life and recursion + mana clash would win vs any deck that do not interact with it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
Crypt/donate is indeed what I was referring too.Quote:
Originally Posted by alphastryk
So for all purposes, mana crypt reads, at your upkeep, take three if that's bad for you.
It makes more sense to me that it works. It is actually a very strong wincon (throw in any discard opponent's hand for 3 on T1, there is a bunch of them). That's why I asked for everyone to be aware of the rules, as it always feel shitty (cheaty?) to lose because of a rule misunderstanding (either submitting crypt/donate to discover you backbuilded yourself, or getting rolled over by a crypt/donate you thought would not work).
As long as we all agree, everything is good :)